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Post by IMdeWalrus on Aug 23, 2015 15:49:11 GMT -5
Fantastic posts by IMdeWalrus! I think maybe Philip Norman's reputation got unfairly inflated by an accident of timing -- his 'Shout!' book came out right after Lennon's murder, and sort-of became the gospel of "St. John" that then dictated the tone writers took to The Beatles in the 80s. What's weird about his two big books is that 'Shout!' is fairly insulting to Paul, and then 'Lennon' kisses Paul's ass from here to eternity. As I mentioned earlier in the thread, Norman got a bit of assistance from Paul (and has clearly met and interviewed him more in recent years) on it, so I guess that explains the about-face, but it sort of underlines that Norman really didn't know what he was doing in the first place. His hatred of George is certainly odd, though. There must have been some incident where George dismissed him or something. Norman also strikes me a 'very British', and the British, as we all know, detest anyone who is earnest about anything -- for example, rock stars talking about religion. Thanks panther! And I'd never really thought about the timing of Norman's book -- so soon after John's murder -- but you're undoubtedly right that this is a big reason why his book got so much positive attention (I think Peter Brown's tell-all book came out soon after too). Plus the fact that a lot of reviewers were impressed that Norman appeared to dig beneath the surface to show The Beatles warts and all. Unfortunately, this seemed to mean "warts only" as far as three-quarters of the group is concerned, and it's that one-dimensional nature of "Shout" that I find so annoying.
As to what ticked him off about George to begin with -- that's a good question. He does mention a couple of times in his book, and later interviews, that he did speak briefly with George during the Apple turmoil around 1969, and I guess George must have really rubbed him the wrong way. Either that, or he just didn't like George's serious-looking eyebrows! lol
Whatever it was, he concludes the 2003 revised version of "Shout" by saying "George wasn't great, just an average guitarist who got incredibly lucky". Well -- he's entitled to his opinion, of course, but it seems odd that this "definitive biography" of "the true story of The Beatles" doesn't even mention that, when Billboard magazine presented its first-ever "Century Award" in 1992, the editors didn't choose John Lennon, Paul McCartney, Bob Dylan or any other of those very deserving winners -- they selected that "average guitarist", George Harrison.
If you want to see an audience show true love, check this out:
("We love you George" cry the fans at 4:20)
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Post by Panther on Aug 24, 2015 7:05:36 GMT -5
he concludes the 2003 revised version of "Shout" by saying "George wasn't great, just an average guitarist who got incredibly lucky". Amazing. That's probably the most idiotic thing I've ever read by a respected music writer. I suppose all those awesome, revered songs George wrote (alone) are simply the result of his luck. It's funny how guitarists like Jimi Hendrix and Eric Clapton didn't have George's magical luck, and couldn't write half as many great songs as he did. I mean, you can't take some of these hacks seriously. George obviously (or so I thought) approached music, in his mature years, in a very different way from how Paul or Ringo -- and even John -- approached it. Simon Leng is the writer who gets this right and understands it. Lewisohn, while less musical, also understands each Beatle's individuality and presents them objectively. Frankly, Norman comes off as a very narrow-minded, white Brit from the 50s. He's incapable of even attempting to understand Hindu-philosophy expressed in Western pop music, let alone basic musical theory. Anyway, fortunately other musicians and the wider public are much smarter than Norman. That's indeed a great clip you highlight. George was always better appreciated Stateside than in Britain, for whatever reason. "The Light That Has Lighted the World" was probably directed at neophobes like Norman.
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Post by IMdeWalrus on Aug 25, 2015 14:42:11 GMT -5
Thanks panther -- and here's a better clip of the 1993 Billboard Century Award broadcast -- this one features the intro by Phil Collins and Tom Petty, and a nice retrospective of George's career. Enjoy!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2016 20:19:30 GMT -5
I'm up to page 576 (and we're just at the point of the White Album's being released)! Seriously, what does Philip Norman have against George Harrison? Shout!, back in 1981, was full of insults to George, culminating in George's going on tour with Delaney and Bonnie and desperately fumbling to "find the easy B7 chords" or somesuch -- Norman's last, desperate attempt to describe George as an incompetent. I don't even know music and I can sense that George struggled and was not the greatest guitar player. The common Beatles outtakes and sessions bear this out repeatedly. Oh,really well Geoff Emerick I believe is the one who said in Mark Lewisohn's great Beatles detailed diary,The Beatles Recording Sessions that on John's song,I'm Only Sleeping in early 1966,George played backwards guitar the most difficult ways possible even though he could have taken an easy way,and that then he added even *more* distorted guitar parts and that it took him 6 hours just to do the guitar overdubs! And he said that this was all George's idea and that he did all of the playing himself. And, THE ALL MUSIC GUIDE,OZZY OSBOURNE,BRIAN MAY,TOM PETTY,RICHIE SAMBORA As The All Music Guide says in their excellent Beatles biography "That it's difficult to summarize their career without restating cliches that have already been digested by tens of millions of rock fans, to start with the obvious,they were the greatest and most influential act of the rock era and introduced more innovations into popular music than any other rock band of the 20th century." "Moreover they were among the few artists of *any* discipline that were simultaneously the best at what they did *and* the most popular at what they did." They also say as singers John Lennon and Paul McCartney were among the best and most expressive in rock. Also on an excellent site,The Evolution of Rock Bass Playing McCartney Style by Dennnis Alstrand,Stanley Clarke,Sting,Will Lee,Billy Sheehan,George Martin and John Lennon are quoted saying what a great,melodic and influential bass player Paul has always been. abbeyrd.best.vwh.net/paulbass.htmAnd Wilco's John Stirratt was asked in Bass Player which bass players have had the most impact on his playing and the first thing he said was, Paul McCartney is one of the greatest bass players of all time,if you listen to what he was tracking live in the studio it's unbelievable." "With his tone and musicality he was a huge influence,he covered all of his harmonic responsibilities really well but his baselines were absolutely melodic and inventive." connection.ebscohost.com/c/articles/15716769/windy-city-wingman-john-stirratt-lays-roots-wilcoIn this 2010 interview the blogger says that John Stirratt has an affinity for good melodies so it's not surprising that Paul McCartney is one of his musical icons and then he quotes him saying that he's always absolutely in awe of his playing,including Paul's Beatles years. audreeanne.blogspot.com/2010/02/interview-wilcos-john-stirratt-talk.html And in an online 1977 Eric Clapton interview,Eric Clapton In His Own Words he says that there was always this game between John and George,and he said partly because John was a pretty good guitar player himself www.superseventies.com/ssericclapton.html .He played live with John as a member of John's 1969 Plastic Ono Band. And there is a great online article by musician and song writer Peter Cross,The Beatles Are The Most Creative Band Of All Time and he says that many musicians besides him recognize Paul as one of the best bass guitar players ever.He too says that John and Paul are the greatest song composers and that to say that John and Paul are among 2 of the greatest singers in rock and roll is to state the obvious,and that John,Paul and George were all excellent guitarists and that George is underrated by people not educated about music but that Eric Clapton knew better,he also says that both John and Paul played great leads as well as innovative rhythm tracks. John Lennon co-wrote,sang and played guitar on one of David Bowie's first hits Fame in 1975 and David invited John to play guitar on his version of John's beautiful Beatles song Across The Universe.Brain May,Ozzy Osbourne,and Liam Gallagher and many more call The Beatles The Greatest Band Ever.' Also on MusicRadar Tom Petty,Joe Perry and Richie Sambora in What The Beatles Mean To Me all say how cool and great they thought The Beatles were when they first saw them on The Ed Sullivan Show in February 1964 when they were just teen boys,Richie was only 5.Tom Petty said he thought they were really really great. Robin Zander of Cheap Trick said he's probably one of the biggest Beatles fans on the planet.Brad Whitford of Aerosmith said that a lot of that Beatles influence comes from Steven Tyler's collaborartion with Mark Hudson both whom are absolute Beatles freaks and he said I guess the goal is to try and emulate probably some of the best music of the last 50 years which has to be The Beatles.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2016 20:47:20 GMT -5
Fantastic posts by IMdeWalrus! I think maybe Philip Norman's reputation got unfairly inflated by an accident of timing -- his 'Shout!' book came out right after Lennon's murder, and sort-of became the gospel of "St. John" that then dictated the tone writers took to The Beatles in the 80s. What's weird about his two big books is that 'Shout!' is fairly insulting to Paul, and then 'Lennon' kisses Paul's ass from here to eternity. As I mentioned earlier in the thread, Norman got a bit of assistance from Paul (and has clearly met and interviewed him more in recent years) on it, so I guess that explains the about-face, but it sort of underlines that Norman really didn't know what he was doing in the first place. His hatred of George is certainly odd, though. There must have been some incident where George dismissed him or something. Norman also strikes me a 'very British', and the British, as we all know, detest anyone who is earnest about anything -- for example, rock stars talking about religion. Thanks panther! And I'd never really thought about the timing of Norman's book -- so soon after John's murder -- but you're undoubtedly right that this is a big reason why his book got so much positive attention (I think Peter Brown's tell-all book came out soon after too). Plus the fact that a lot of reviewers were impressed that Norman appeared to dig beneath the surface to show The Beatles warts and all. Unfortunately, this seemed to mean "warts only" as far as three-quarters of the group is concerned, and it's that one-dimensional nature of "Shout" that I find so annoying.
As to what ticked him off about George to begin with -- that's a good question. He does mention a couple of times in his book, and later interviews, that he did speak briefly with George during the Apple turmoil around 1969, and I guess George must have really rubbed him the wrong way. Either that, or he just didn't like George's serious-looking eyebrows! lol
Whatever it :)was, he concludes the 2003 revised version of "Shout" by saying "George wasn't great, just an average guitarist who got incredibly lucky". Well -- he's entitled to his opinion, of course, but it seems odd that this "definitive biography" of "the true story of The Beatles" doesn't even mention that, when Billboard magazine presented its first-ever "Century Award" in 1992, the editors didn't choose John Lennon, Paul McCartney, Bob Dylan or any other of those very deserving winners -- they selected that "average guitarist", George Harrison.
If you want to see an audience show true love, check this out:
("We love you George" cry the fans at 4:20)
Thank you for posting this! I didn't even know that George got this special award.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2016 21:17:37 GMT -5
I haven't read this book, but I first read the excellent,empathetic book,Lennon by award winning music journalist and former Melody Maker editor Ray Coleman in 1985, a few years ago I got the updated version,and I still believe it's the most accurate and the most to be trusted. Ray met John as an early Beatle in 1962,and he remained good friends with John right till the end,and he spent a lot of time with him and interviewed him over these 18 years.He does report John's bad sides and behavior,but he also knew and reports his good sides and qualities and he totally understands John and how he was psychologically damaged by the traumas in his childhood and teens and how he worked on himself and changed for the better especially during his last 5 years of his life.He says in the introduction,that to know John was to love him,Phillip Norman never really knew John and wasn't a friend! Also if Philip Norman did such a ''good job'' on this John biography,then why do quite a few people say in reviewing it that John was a horrible insensitive person and that reading the book made them hate John!? Like this review on Barnes and Noble.com titled,A good Read But Drags, that says that John was a horrible insensitive person and that he made fun of black,gay,and mentally and physically disabled people(this was when John was a *very young psychologically messed up guy*!),and said he deserved to survive the bullets and be a brain damaged quadriplegic! www.barnesandnoble.com/reviews/john-lennon-philip-norman/1100555558?ean=9780060754020#reviews-header It's very obvious that Philip Norman writes a lot of sensationalism a lot that isn't even true to sell his books! He's probably going to do the same thing with his new Paul biography too unfortunately.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2016 21:40:35 GMT -5
I'm up to page 576 (and we're just at the point of the White Album's being released)! Seriously, what does Philip Norman have against George Harrison? Shout!, back in 1981, was full of insults to George, culminating in George's going on tour with Delaney and Bonnie and desperately fumbling to "find the easy B7 chords" or somesuch -- Norman's last, desperate attempt to describe George as an incompetent. I don't even know music and I can sense that George struggled and was not the greatest guitar player. The common Beatles outtakes and sessions bear this out repeatedly. Joe, did you read Hunter Davies excellent and only authorized Beatles biography,The Beatles? In it he explains that at only age 13 George would play his guitar until 2 in the morning until he got the chords exactly right and his fingers were bleeding and his nice mother stayed up with him.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2016 1:44:39 GMT -5
Fantastic posts by IMdeWalrus! I think maybe Philip Norman's reputation got unfairly inflated by an accident of timing -- his 'Shout!' book came out right after Lennon's murder, and sort-of became the gospel of "St. John" that then dictated the tone writers took to The Beatles in the 80s. What's weird about his two big books is that 'Shout!' is fairly insulting to Paul, and then 'Lennon' kisses Paul's ass from here to eternity. As I mentioned earlier in the thread, Norman got a bit of assistance from Paul (and has clearly met and interviewed him more in recent years) on it, so I guess that explains the about-face, but it sort of underlines that Norman really didn't know what he was doing in the first place. His hatred of George is certainly odd, though. There must have been some incident where George dismissed him or something. Norman also strikes me a 'very British', and the British, as we all know, detest anyone who is earnest about anything -- for example, rock stars talking about religion. Thanks panther! And I'd never really thought about the timing of Norman's book -- so soon after John's murder -- but you're undoubtedly right that this is a big reason why his book got so much positive attention (I think Peter Brown's tell-all book came out soon after too). Plus the fact that a lot of reviewers were impressed that Norman appeared to dig beneath the surface to show The Beatles warts and all. Unfortunately, this seemed to mean "warts only" as far as three-quarters of the group is concerned, and it's that one-dimensional nature of "Shout" that I find so annoying.
As to what ticked him off about George to begin with -- that's a good question. He does mention a couple of times in his book, and later interviews, that he did speak briefly with George during the Apple turmoil around 1969, and I guess George must have really rubbed him the wrong way. Either that, or he just didn't like George's serious-looking eyebrows! lol
Whatever it was, he concludes the 2003 revised version of "Shout" by saying "George wasn't great, just an average guitarist who got incredibly lucky". Well -- he's entitled to his opinion, of course, but it seems odd that this "definitive biography" of "the true story of The Beatles" doesn't even mention that, when Billboard magazine presented its first-ever "Century Award" in 1992, the editors didn't choose John Lennon, Paul McCartney, Bob Dylan or any other of those very deserving winners -- they selected that "average guitarist", George Harrison.
If you want to see an audience show true love, check this out:
("We love you George" cry the fans at 4:20)
George still looked gorgeous here!
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Jan 24, 2016 6:42:08 GMT -5
I don't even know music and I can sense that George struggled and was not the greatest guitar player. The common Beatles outtakes and sessions bear this out repeatedly. Joe, did you read Hunter Davies excellent and only authorized Beatles biography,The Beatles? In it he explains that at only age 13 George would play his guitar until 2 in the morning until he got the chords exactly right and his fingers were bleeding and his nice mother stayed up with him. Yes, but in spite of all that the proof is right there on so many of the Beatles' sessions recordings, and some live performances. George seems to have required a lot of preparation to get guitar parts perfected, and could not improvise or play "on the fly", so to speak. I do think he was an "average guitarist", as Philip Norman stated.
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Jan 24, 2016 6:54:39 GMT -5
Also if Philip Norman did such a ''good job'' on this John biography,then why do quite a few people say in reviewing it that John was a horrible insensitive person and that reading the book made them hate John!? Like this review on Barnes and Noble.com titled,A good Read But Drags, that says that John was a horrible insensitive person and that he made fun of black,gay,and mentally and physically disabled people(this was when John was a *very young psychologically messed up guy*!),and said he deserved to survive the bullets and be a brain damaged quadriplegic! Funny how that reviewer calls John "insensitive", and then proceeds to say he deserved to survive the shooting as a brain damaged quadriplegic (!). Well, that insult trumps anything John ever said. So much for that. Furthermore -- while I'm sure Lennon was an insensitive bastard in his youth due to a traumatic childhood, the whole fascination of John is that he was always searching and he grew... and later matured (and Yoko was a huge part of that, you Yoko Bashers ) -- and he ultimately became very sensitive to minorities and women. I don't want to get too deep into politics, but Lennon did become very liberal. That's part of what made Lennon so interesting: his complexity and troubled youth and eventual growth, etc.
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Jan 24, 2016 7:00:21 GMT -5
I don't even know music and I can sense that George struggled and was not the greatest guitar player. The common Beatles outtakes and sessions bear this out repeatedly. Oh,really well Geoff Emerick I believe is the one who said in Mark Lewisohn's great Beatles detailed diary,The Beatles Recording Sessions that on John's song,I'm Only Sleeping in early 1966,George played backwards guitar the most difficult ways possible even though he could have taken an easy way,and that then he added even *more* distorted guitar parts and that it took him 6 hours just to do the guitar overdubs! And he said that this was all George's idea and that he did all of the playing himself. And, THE ALL MUSIC GUIDE,OZZY OSBOURNE,BRIAN MAY,TOM PETTY,RICHIE SAMBORA As The All Music Guide says in their excellent Beatles biography "That it's difficult to summarize their career without restating cliches that have already been digested by tens of millions of rock fans, to start with the obvious,they were the greatest and most influential act of the rock era and introduced more innovations into popular music than any other rock band of the 20th century." "Moreover they were among the few artists of *any* discipline that were simultaneously the best at what they did *and* the most popular at what they did." They also say as singers John Lennon and Paul McCartney were among the best and most expressive in rock. Also on an excellent site,The Evolution of Rock Bass Playing McCartney Style by Dennnis Alstrand,Stanley Clarke,Sting,Will Lee,Billy Sheehan,George Martin and John Lennon are quoted saying what a great,melodic and influential bass player Paul has always been. abbeyrd.best.vwh.net/paulbass.htmAnd Wilco's John Stirratt was asked in Bass Player which bass players have had the most impact on his playing and the first thing he said was, Paul McCartney is one of the greatest bass players of all time,if you listen to what he was tracking live in the studio it's unbelievable." "With his tone and musicality he was a huge influence,he covered all of his harmonic responsibilities really well but his baselines were absolutely melodic and inventive." connection.ebscohost.com/c/articles/15716769/windy-city-wingman-john-stirratt-lays-roots-wilcoIn this 2010 interview the blogger says that John Stirratt has an affinity for good melodies so it's not surprising that Paul McCartney is one of his musical icons and then he quotes him saying that he's always absolutely in awe of his playing,including Paul's Beatles years. audreeanne.blogspot.com/2010/02/interview-wilcos-john-stirratt-talk.html And in an online 1977 Eric Clapton interview,Eric Clapton In His Own Words he says that there was always this game between John and George,and he said partly because John was a pretty good guitar player himself www.superseventies.com/ssericclapton.html .He played live with John as a member of John's 1969 Plastic Ono Band. And there is a great online article by musician and song writer Peter Cross,The Beatles Are The Most Creative Band Of All Time and he says that many musicians besides him recognize Paul as one of the best bass guitar players ever.He too says that John and Paul are the greatest song composers and that to say that John and Paul are among 2 of the greatest singers in rock and roll is to state the obvious,and that John,Paul and George were all excellent guitarists and that George is underrated by people not educated about music but that Eric Clapton knew better,he also says that both John and Paul played great leads as well as innovative rhythm tracks. John Lennon co-wrote,sang and played guitar on one of David Bowie's first hits Fame in 1975 and David invited John to play guitar on his version of John's beautiful Beatles song Across The Universe.Brain May,Ozzy Osbourne,and Liam Gallagher and many more call The Beatles The Greatest Band Ever.' Also on MusicRadar Tom Petty,Joe Perry and Richie Sambora in What The Beatles Mean To Me all say how cool and great they thought The Beatles were when they first saw them on The Ed Sullivan Show in February 1964 when they were just teen boys,Richie was only 5.Tom Petty said he thought they were really really great. Robin Zander of Cheap Trick said he's probably one of the biggest Beatles fans on the planet.Brad Whitford of Aerosmith said that a lot of that Beatles influence comes from Steven Tyler's collaborartion with Mark Hudson both whom are absolute Beatles freaks and he said I guess the goal is to try and emulate probably some of the best music of the last 50 years which has to be The Beatles. There are also quotes by the Beatles themselves where they conceded that they were basically "competent" or "average" musicians. I love The Beatles as much as anyone, but don't think they were the greatest musicians (though I think Paul was the best). Their biggest strength in which they have no equal by any other band is in their amazing ability to write great songs. I also think that both John and Paul were superior singers (I saw you came up with one quote defending their singing). I'm not being critical of their singing or song writing... just saying they were competent at best as musicians. But Paul was/is quite a good bass player and multi-instrumentalist. The worst thing any Beatles Fan can do is refuse to be objectively critical of them when warranted -- IMO.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2016 7:35:15 GMT -5
Oh,really well Geoff Emerick I believe is the one who said in Mark Lewisohn's great Beatles detailed diary,The Beatles Recording Sessions that on John's song,I'm Only Sleeping in early 1966,George played backwards guitar the most difficult ways possible even though he could have taken an easy way,and that then he added even *more* distorted guitar parts and that it took him 6 hours just to do the guitar overdubs! And he said that this was all George's idea and that he did all of the playing himself. And, THE ALL MUSIC GUIDE,OZZY OSBOURNE,BRIAN MAY,TOM PETTY,RICHIE SAMBORA As The All Music Guide says in their excellent Beatles biography "That it's difficult to summarize their career without restating cliches that have already been digested by tens of millions of rock fans, to start with the obvious,they were the greatest and most influential act of the rock era and introduced more innovations into popular music than any other rock band of the 20th century." "Moreover they were among the few artists of *any* discipline that were simultaneously the best at what they did *and* the most popular at what they did." They also say as singers John Lennon and Paul McCartney were among the best and most expressive in rock. Also on an excellent site,The Evolution of Rock Bass Playing McCartney Style by Dennnis Alstrand,Stanley Clarke,Sting,Will Lee,Billy Sheehan,George Martin and John Lennon are quoted saying what a great,melodic and influential bass player Paul has always been. abbeyrd.best.vwh.net/paulbass.htmAnd Wilco's John Stirratt was asked in Bass Player which bass players have had the most impact on his playing and the first thing he said was, Paul McCartney is one of the greatest bass players of all time,if you listen to what he was tracking live in the studio it's unbelievable." "With his tone and musicality he was a huge influence,he covered all of his harmonic responsibilities really well but his baselines were absolutely melodic and inventive." connection.ebscohost.com/c/articles/15716769/windy-city-wingman-john-stirratt-lays-roots-wilcoIn this 2010 interview the blogger says that John Stirratt has an affinity for good melodies so it's not surprising that Paul McCartney is one of his musical icons and then he quotes him saying that he's always absolutely in awe of his playing,including Paul's Beatles years. audreeanne.blogspot.com/2010/02/interview-wilcos-john-stirratt-talk.html And in an online 1977 Eric Clapton interview,Eric Clapton In His Own Words he says that there was always this game between John and George,and he said partly because John was a pretty good guitar player himself www.superseventies.com/ssericclapton.html .He played live with John as a member of John's 1969 Plastic Ono Band. And there is a great online article by musician and song writer Peter Cross,The Beatles Are The Most Creative Band Of All Time and he says that many musicians besides him recognize Paul as one of the best bass guitar players ever.He too says that John and Paul are the greatest song composers and that to say that John and Paul are among 2 of the greatest singers in rock and roll is to state the obvious,and that John,Paul and George were all excellent guitarists and that George is underrated by people not educated about music but that Eric Clapton knew better,he also says that both John and Paul played great leads as well as innovative rhythm tracks. John Lennon co-wrote,sang and played guitar on one of David Bowie's first hits Fame in 1975 and David invited John to play guitar on his version of John's beautiful Beatles song Across The Universe.Brain May,Ozzy Osbourne,and Liam Gallagher and many more call The Beatles The Greatest Band Ever.' Also on MusicRadar Tom Petty,Joe Perry and Richie Sambora in What The Beatles Mean To Me all say how cool and great they thought The Beatles were when they first saw them on The Ed Sullivan Show in February 1964 when they were just teen boys,Richie was only 5.Tom Petty said he thought they were really really great. Robin Zander of Cheap Trick said he's probably one of the biggest Beatles fans on the planet.Brad Whitford of Aerosmith said that a lot of that Beatles influence comes from Steven Tyler's collaborartion with Mark Hudson both whom are absolute Beatles freaks and he said I guess the goal is to try and emulate probably some of the best music of the last 50 years which has to be The Beatles. There are also quotes by the Beatles themselves where they conceded that they were basically "competent" or "average" musicians. I love The Beatles as much as anyone, but don't think they were the greatest musicians (though I think Paul was the best). Their biggest strength in which they have no equal by any other band is in their amazing ability to write great songs. I also think that both John and Paul were superior singers (I saw you came up with one quote defending their singing). I'm not being critical of their singing or song writing... just saying they were competent at best as musicians. But Paul was/is quite a good bass player and multi-instrumentalist. The worst thing any Beatles Fan can do is refuse to be objectively critical of them when warranted -- IMO. I can't believe you believe that they were just ''competent'' I go by what other well known successful musicians have said about their musicianship,and having a pretty good ear for music and listening to them in head phones and regular speakers often since I was nine,and they always sounded like very good musicians to me which is amazing given the very limited,primitive recording technology,and live sound systems they had at the time.I think what you said is the worst thing any genuine Beatles fan can think and say.This is one of the inaccurate things Beatles haters who ludicrously,ignorantly,mistakingly believe they were a ''boy band''( which you made a great important youtube video to debunk this) think and say too! You're right though,they were just competent when they first started playing in the clubs in Hamburg Germany at 17,18,& 19 years old,but playing 8 hours a night for two years in a row and having to take speed pills to do it,and playing live successfully in the Cavern for several years,makes you become very good musicians,and all of the over 100's of concerts they played touring from 1963-1966 and then all of the tons of recording sessions they did.Do you think that The Rolling Stones were just competent musicians too in the 1960's and 70's? I have read some people say they don't think they were that great technically as musicians.
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Jan 24, 2016 7:39:31 GMT -5
I can't believe you believe that they were just ''competent'' i go by what other well known successful musicians have said about their musicianship,and having a pretty good ear for music and listening to them in head phones and regular speakers often since I was nine,and they always sounded like very good musicians to me. How did you completely overlook the part where I said The Beatles themselves often said they were just competent or average musicians? Since you go by what well known and successful musicians say, then I'd say The Beatles are a good source. And they ought to know about themselves. I'm always debating against people who claim idiotically that "The Beatles Were A Boy Band!" -- so please don't include me in their category.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2016 8:02:30 GMT -5
I can't believe you believe that they were just ''competent'' i go by what other well known successful musicians have said about their musicianship,and having a pretty good ear for music and listening to them in head phones and regular speakers often since I was nine,and they always sounded like very good musicians to me. How did you completely overlook the part where I said The Beatles themselves often said they were just competent or average musicians? Since you go by what well known and successful musicians say, then I'd say The Beatles are a good source. And they ought to know about themselves. I'm always debating against people who claim idiotically that "The Beatles Were A Boy Band!" -- so please don't include me in their category. Yeah,well I never heard Paul say he was just a ''competent'' musician,( I never heard or read George,John and Ringo say it either) but John also for some insecure puzzling reasons,hated his unique beautiful voice,which it is rightfully genuinely recognized as,and he always was doing things in the recording studio to change it.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2016 8:11:34 GMT -5
Here George Martin is quoted saying there is no doubt that Lennon and McCartney were good musicians,he said they had great musical brains and the brain is where music originates it has nothing to do with your fingers.He then said as it happens they could play their instruments very well.He then talks about what an excellent bass player and multi instrumentalist Paul is.Sting,Billy Sheehan,Stanley Clarke,Will Lee and John Lennon are also quoted here about what a great influential bass player Paul has always been. abbeyrd.best.vwh.net/paulbass.htm#WHAT
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Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2016 8:15:29 GMT -5
Here is a 1977 interview with Eric Clapton,( who has a wide reputation as being one of the greatest guitarists ever) say how he met John,and how there was always this (guitar) game between John and George,partly because John was a pretty good guitar player himself! www.superseventies.com/ssericclapton.html
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Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2016 8:22:03 GMT -5
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Jan 24, 2016 8:26:11 GMT -5
Here is a 1977 interview with Eric Clapton,( who has a wide reputation as being one of the greatest guitarists ever) say how he met John,and how there was always this (guitar) game between John and George,partly because John was a pretty good guitar player himself! www.superseventies.com/ssericclapton.htmlYet Clapton played the lead on "While My Guitar Gently Weeps". And George always had him around, even on stage during George's 1991 Japan Concert dates. But I do think Eric is one of the all-time greatest guitarists ever.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2016 8:28:04 GMT -5
I can't believe you believe that they were just ''competent'' i go by what other well known successful musicians have said about their musicianship,and having a pretty good ear for music and listening to them in head phones and regular speakers often since I was nine,and they always sounded like very good musicians to me. How did you completely overlook the part where I said The Beatles themselves often said they were just competent or average musicians? Since you go by what well known and successful musicians say, then I'd say The Beatles are a good source. And they ought to know about themselves. I'm always debating against people who claim idiotically that "The Beatles Were A Boy Band!" -- so please don't include me in their category. Yes,and it's a big shame,ridiculous,ignorant,and ludicrous that you even have to try to debunk it! There isn't any ''debate'',it's totally false,and beyond,ignorant,inaccurate,ridiculous,ludicrous nonsense!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2016 8:33:35 GMT -5
How did you completely overlook the part where I said The Beatles themselves often said they were just competent or average musicians? Since you go by what well known and successful musicians say, then I'd say The Beatles are a good source. And they ought to know about themselves. I'm always debating against people who claim idiotically that "The Beatles Were A Boy Band!" -- so please don't include me in their category. Yes,and it's a big shame,ridiculous,ignorant,and ludicrous that you even have to try to debunk it! There isn't any ''debate'',it's totally false,and beyond,ignorant,inaccurate,ridiculous,ludicrous nonsense! But what can you say about what Geoff Emerick says in the great Beatles Recording Sessions book,that I posted in this topic today,that during the recording of John's song I'm Only Sleeping in early 1966 George Harrison played backwards guitars the most difficult way possible even though he could have taken the easy way.He said he then added even *more* distorted guitars and that it took him 6 hours just for the guitar overdubs and that this was all George's idea and that he did all of the playing.This is why I find it really hard to believe that George(who also played many other very good and some great Beatles guitar solos) couldn't play the lead on While My Guitar Gently Weeps,it just doesn't make any sense.And there was also a reason that Eric liked George as a musician too you know.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2016 8:36:16 GMT -5
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Jan 24, 2016 8:39:41 GMT -5
Yeah,well I never heard Paul say he was just a ''competent'' musician,( I never heard or read George,John and Ringo say it either) Paul and John both said they were competent. I've recently heard Paul saying it again in a 1964 interview record I played which features all sorts of audio segments from various US Tours. A series of interview record LP's were released by Cicadelic Records in the 1980s. There are many instances where John and Paul said such things, but it all depends on how deeply fans pursue all sorts of interviews and video footage. Ringo has always confidently said "I am the Greatest Rock Drummer In The World", and I do get annoyed when people reduce or put down his ability. However, it is evident that Ringo does feel somewhat self-conscious about his drumming all the same. He admits "I can't play anything too busy, and that's just not my style". In a 1989 David Letterman Show appearance, Dave tried to get Ringo to play the drums and Ringo was obviously sheepish about it and tried to avoid it.. but when he was pressured to play, he shook his head and reluctantly said to Dave: "I'll play but it's not my style". Dave then said "I'm sorry, Ringo -- I'm sorry!" Then Ringo went over to Letterman's band and motioned to them with his hands to "take it easy", and you can see how slowly the band played when Ringo bopped out a little jam with them. When Ringo joined Paul onstage to play Paul's "Queenie Eye" at the Grammys recently, he was assisted by Paul's regular drummer, Abe. And naturally, Ringo always has a second drummer playing with him at his All-Starr Tours. Here's Ringo on Letterman. Go to around the 9:23 mark: I agree that this is puzzling, as John was indeed very insecure about his voice.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2016 8:45:44 GMT -5
Yeah,well I never heard Paul say he was just a ''competent'' musician,( I never heard or read George,John and Ringo say it either) Paul and John both said they were competent. I've recently heard Paul saying it again in a 1964 interview record I played which features all sorts of audio segments from various US Tours. A series of interview record LP's were released by Cicadelic Records in the 1980s. There are many instances where John and Paul said such things, but it all depends on how deeply fans pursue all sorts of interviews and video footage. Ringo has always confidently said "I am the Greatest Rock Drummer In The World", and I do get annoyed when people reduce or put down his ability. However, it is evident that Ringo does feel somewhat self-conscious about his drumming all the same. He admits "I can't play anything too busy, and that's just not my style". In a 1989 David Letterman Show appearance, Dave tried to get Ringo to play the drums and Ringo was obviously sheepish about it and tried to avoid it.. but when he was pressured to play, he shook his head and reluctantly said to Dave: "I'll play but it's not my style". Dave then said "I'm sorry, Ringo -- I'm sorry!" Then Ringo went over to Letterman's band and motioned to them with his hands to "take it easy", and you can see how slowly the band played when Ringo bopped out a little jam with them. When Ringo joined Paul onstage to play Paul's "Queenie Eye" at the Grammys recently, he was assisted by Paul's regular drummer, Abe. And naturally, Ringo always has a second drummer playing with him at his All-Starr Tours. Here's Ringo on Letterman. Go to around the 9:23 mark: I agree that this is puzzling, as John was indeed very insecure about his voice. Well,I don't think Ringo is The greatest drummer in the world,but he certainly was always a very good one! And don't you recognize that musicians do become very good the more and more they play? and John was wrongly insecure about a lot of things about himself including his guitar playing as Eric Clapton even said he was pretty good,his insecurities aren't really a puzzling mystery,they all stem back to both his parents rejecting him.
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Jan 24, 2016 8:47:45 GMT -5
But what can you say about what Geoff Emerick says in the great Beatles Recording Sessions book,that I posted in this topic today,that during the recording of John's song I'm Only Sleeping in early 1966 George Harrison played backwards guitars the most difficult way possible even though he could have taken the easy way.He said he then added even *more* distorted guitars and that it took him 6 hours just for the guitar overdubs and that this was all George's idea and that he did all of the playing.This is why I find it really hard to believe that George(who also played many other very good and some great Beatles guitar solos) couldn't play the lead on While My Guitar Gently Weeps,it just doesn't make any sense.And there was also a reason that Eric liked George as a musician too you know. The "I'm Only Sleeping" example is consistent with what I've said -- that George was very good when he had the time to perfect something in the studio. But playing live, or 'on the fly', or "shredding" ... no. I think the friendship between George and Eric went far beyond just their common interests in guitar playing. I mean George even allowed Eric to steal his wife. I think George was a good slide guitarist.... is that better?
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Jan 24, 2016 8:54:54 GMT -5
Well,I don't think Ringo is The greatest drummer in the world,but he certainly was always a very good one! And don't you recognize that musicians do become very good the more and more they play? and John was wrongly insecure about a lot of things about himself including his guitar playing as Eric Clapton even said he was pretty good,his insecurities aren't really a puzzling mystery,they all stem back to both his parents rejecting him. Don't get me wrong -- I personally love the sounds of Ringo's drumming on The Beatles' great records. And I also like the sound of the guitars and bass from John, Paul, and George on the classic songs ... I think they worked it all out well. John was a better rhythm guitarist than he gave himself credit for, true. Still, I don't think he was one of the greats or anything. I do want to affirm that I think Paul is the most gifted natural and versatile musician of the four. And yes, I do think an exceptional bass player.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2016 8:58:50 GMT -5
And Ringo Star was already a successful drummer in the most popular successful band in Liverpool,Rorry Storm and The Hurricanes when John,Paul and George asked him to join The Beatles.And George Martin didn't think that Pete Best was that good,and he and John,Paul and George thought that Ringo was much better.
Also Phil Collins and Max Weinberg are both Ringo fans. And Phil Colins says he can't even duplicate Ringo's great drumming in A Day In The Life. George Martin says that Ringo always had a great feel and ear for a song and that it was his idea to play the tom toms on A Day In The Life giving it a unique percussion sound.
Mark Lewisohn says in his great book,The Beatles Recording Sessions,that on a handful of occasions during all of the several hundred session tapes and thousand of recording hours can Ringo be heard to have made a mistake or wavered in his beat. He then says that his work was remarkably consistent-and excellent-from 1962 right through to 1970.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2016 9:03:43 GMT -5
Well,I don't think Ringo is The greatest drummer in the world,but he certainly was always a very good one! And don't you recognize that musicians do become very good the more and more they play? and John was wrongly insecure about a lot of things about himself including his guitar playing as Eric Clapton even said he was pretty good,his insecurities aren't really a puzzling mystery,they all stem back to both his parents rejecting him. Don't get me wrong -- I personally love the sounds of Ringo's drumming on The Beatles' great records. And I also like the sound of the guitars and bass from John, Paul, and George on the classic songs ... I think they worked it all out well. John was a better rhythm guitarist than he gave himself credit for, true. Still, I don't think he was one of the greats or anything. I do want to affirm that I think Paul is the most gifted natural and versatile musician of the four. And yes, I do think an exceptional bass player. John didn't have to be one of the greatest rhythm guitarists ever,but can't you at least acknowledge as even Eric Clapton said that like George he was a pretty good guitar player?
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Jan 24, 2016 9:20:39 GMT -5
Don't get me wrong -- I personally love the sounds of Ringo's drumming on The Beatles' great records. And I also like the sound of the guitars and bass from John, Paul, and George on the classic songs ... I think they worked it all out well. John was a better rhythm guitarist than he gave himself credit for, true. Still, I don't think he was one of the greats or anything. I do want to affirm that I think Paul is the most gifted natural and versatile musician of the four. And yes, I do think an exceptional bass player. John didn't have to be one of the greatest rhythm guitarists ever,but can't you at least acknowledge as even Eric Clapton said that like George he was a pretty good guitar player? I acknowledge that Eric felt that way -- now, so what? And I also did say that I felt "John was better than he gave himself credit for". Here I am bending over backwards trying to compromise in my replies, yet you still are one of those Beatles fans who won't ever criticize them, it seems. It's always "all or nothing" with certain more biased Beatles fans. It really gets frightening.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2016 9:32:03 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2016 9:51:21 GMT -5
There isn't anything ''frightening'' at all in what I have said! I never said they were the greatest musicians in the whole God dam*ed world here,( and even if I did ,it wouldn't be ''frightening'' just not true) I said that they were very good musicians and you as a ''Beatles fan'' won't even give them this recognition.So there isn't any point in arguing anymore.I also said that I don't think Ringo is the greatest drummer in the world too.I also have posted elsewhere on this site that I disapprove of how they used tons young women groupies,many who were underage teen girls like tissue paper.
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