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Post by John S. Damm on Jan 31, 2011 22:21:41 GMT -5
Am I the only one who is genuinely surprised that BOTR-1 completely trounced LITMW-1? I knew BOTR-1 would ultimately win, it is dear to most(not all) here, but this was a good old fashioned butt-kicking. I still maintain(RTP disagrees) that LITMW has aged wonderfully because we fans have aged. LITMW really is that good bottle of wine that is properly stored and forgotten only to be discovered years later when the listener, like the bottle of wine, is a little dustier and weathered. Someday the BOTR bug will bite me again but I simply view it as a very polished effort by Paul lacking the guts and audacity of his first four albums. I concede defeat here, but let it be said that I rooted hard here for George's last album where he was an undiminished, unconditional superstar hot off The Beatles, ATMP and Bangladesh but George had the artistic integrity and guts to make the album he needed to make, not the album we all wanted him to make, a party album like BOTR for stadium concerts and good times with girls, fast cars and beer/reefer. George was slammed for being honest to himself. In summary, I view BOTR as an album teenagers outgrow as they mature into adults and LITMW is there to fill the void. I am in the distinct minority but when am I not?
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Post by ReturnToPepperland on Jan 31, 2011 22:56:38 GMT -5
Am I the only one who is genuinely surprised that BOTR-1 completely trounced LITMW-1? I knew BOTR-1 would ultimately win, it is dear to most(not all) here, but this was a good old fashioned butt-kicking. I still maintain(RTP disagrees) that LITMW has aged wonderfully because we fans have aged. LITMW really is that good bottle of wine that is properly stored and forgotten only to be discovered years later when the listener, like the bottle of wine, is a little dustier and weathered. Someday the BOTR bug will bite me again but I simply view it as a very polished effort by Paul lacking the guts and audacity of his first four albums. I concede defeat here, but let it be said that I rooted hard here for George's last album where he was an undiminished, unconditional superstar hot off The Beatles, ATMP and Bangladesh but George had the artistic integrity and guts to make the album he needed to make, not the album we all wanted him to make, a party album like BOTR for stadium concerts and good times with girls, fast cars and beer/reefer. George was slammed for being honest to himself. In summary, I view BOTR as an album teenagers outgrow as they mature into adults and LITMW is there to fill the void. I am in the distinct minority but when am I not? To be fair to LITMW and JSD, I did say I like/understand the album better now than as a 13 year old. It has improved slightly in my view in that I have more of an understanding of what George was trying to do. Maybe I'm being ultra hard on it because I was expecting another ATMP and that it was not. There is nothing wrong with BOTR's polish. I like a little polish once in a while. I pledge that when I get the opportunity I will listen to the remixed LITMW and render an opinion on that. I already like it better because it has Miss O'Dell on it. That's what George needs on this record, a little humor. You say George was slammed for being honest to himself. I say he was as much into good times with girls, fast cars and beer/reefer as the next guy, but it didn't fit his image.
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Post by joeyself on Jan 31, 2011 23:00:51 GMT -5
John, I too thought this would be a little closer--so much so that I refrained from voting early on it.
JcS
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Post by John S. Damm on Jan 31, 2011 23:09:33 GMT -5
Am I the only one who is genuinely surprised that BOTR-1 completely trounced LITMW-1? I knew BOTR-1 would ultimately win, it is dear to most(not all) here, but this was a good old fashioned butt-kicking. I still maintain(RTP disagrees) that LITMW has aged wonderfully because we fans have aged. LITMW really is that good bottle of wine that is properly stored and forgotten only to be discovered years later when the listener, like the bottle of wine, is a little dustier and weathered. Someday the BOTR bug will bite me again but I simply view it as a very polished effort by Paul lacking the guts and audacity of his first four albums. I concede defeat here, but let it be said that I rooted hard here for George's last album where he was an undiminished, unconditional superstar hot off The Beatles, ATMP and Bangladesh but George had the artistic integrity and guts to make the album he needed to make, not the album we all wanted him to make, a party album like BOTR for stadium concerts and good times with girls, fast cars and beer/reefer. George was slammed for being honest to himself. In summary, I view BOTR as an album teenagers outgrow as they mature into adults and LITMW is there to fill the void. I am in the distinct minority but when am I not? To be fair to LITMW and JSD, I did say I like/understand the album better now than as a 13 year old. It has improved slightly in my view in that I have more of an understanding of what George was trying to do. Maybe I'm being ultra hard on it because I was expecting another ATMP and that it was not. There is nothing wrong with BOTR's polish. I like a little polish once in a while. I pledge that when I get the opportunity I will listen to the remixed LITMW and render an opinion on that. I already like it better because it has Miss O'Dell on it. That's what George needs on this record, a little humor. You say George was slammed for being honest to himself. I say he was as much into good times with girls, fast cars and beer/reefer as the next guy, but it didn't fit his image. And I will admit that I am sometimes too hard on BOTR but at least it is based on my incredible love of Paul's first four albums! I know some diehard Paul fans on this Board(not you RTP) who hate at least two of Paul's first four albums so go figure?
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Post by ReturnToPepperland on Jan 31, 2011 23:16:26 GMT -5
Are you referring to me as among "the same few posters trying to tear each other down in a nasty ass pissing match"? I would like an example of an ad-hominem attack by me against anyone on this board. What I have done here is express my opinion about what is obviously a favorite album of many on the board. I don't think I have been nasty nor have I pissed on anyone. I used humor to lighten things up a bit. It had been intimated that someone who would like BOTR is not very deep or thoughtful and I made a joke out of taking lyrics literally. It was to iillustrate a point. Was that offensive to anyone? I wasn't offended by McCabe's grammar references. It was kind of amusing. And let us not forget that this grammar thing started when you, yourself (heh!), commented that "I just believe in me" was poor grammar - erroneously. Brothermichael, Joe Karlosi, acebackwords and myself commented. Here's the thread: abbeyrd.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=2467And in this thread I had a go at RTP on some of his grammar, as I felt he was nitpicking some wrong lyrics I gave. So I "picked his nit" back, as he had tried to in the other thread. But I know RTP, and that sort of thing is no big deal. As you imply, RTP, there's no viciousness in this sort of thing. It's a tangent to the main issue of the thread, but some will find it's entertaining and amusing; some won't. That's an internet forum; hey - that's life! McCabe Yes I did start the grammar thing. I began to say that in my post above, but ultimately I didn't do so. McCabe and Joe K and I (and some others) have definite opinions that we defend strongly at times. But there is no real viciousness and no harm done. McCabe and I know each other beyond the posts on this board. And its a pleasure. I respect his opinions and Joe K's too. Listen to this. The verses don't fit this discussion but the chorus sure does. The great Dave Mason live: Here is the studio recording:
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Post by John S. Damm on Jan 31, 2011 23:18:57 GMT -5
John, I too thought this would be a little closer--so much so that I refrained from voting early on it. JcS And my feeling was based on this pitting the two wonderful Side 1's against each other. I think most of us would agree that Sides 1 of BOTR and LITMW are easily the best Sides of the respective albums. BOTR-2 versus LITMW-1 would be a real interesting pairing: does the BOTR Army(led by General RTP) switch allegiance for what I would argue is the clearly superior LITMW-1? BOTR-1 would shut-out LITMW-2(I think) and BOTR-2 should probably beat LITMW-2 if paired. Oh well, this Round ended with two powerhouses matched against each other but the gang has voted and I can accept it(I have no other choice!). ;D
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Post by John S. Damm on Jan 31, 2011 23:28:44 GMT -5
McCabe and I have gotten to know each other beyond the posts on this board. And its a pleasure. And that statement has just scared the hell out of me. Suddenly the devastating floods seen in various places, the political revolution on the streets of Egypt and the earthquake near Logansport, Indiana are making much more sense to me: an Earthly reaction to an unholy alliance!
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Joseph McCabe
Very Clean
A rebel to his last breath ...
Posts: 912
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Post by Joseph McCabe on Jan 31, 2011 23:53:04 GMT -5
McCabe and I have gotten to know each other beyond the posts on this board. And its a pleasure. And that statement has just scared the hell out of me. Suddenly the devastating floods seen in various places, the political revolution on the streets of Egypt and the earthquake near Logansport, Indiana are making much more sense to me: an Earthly reaction to an unholy alliance! Neither of has anything to do with those disasters, not even the massive cyclone about to hit the North Queensland coast. Strange but true. I wrote to RTP about the scales falling from my eyes about Electric Arguments, which is still played often in my house. We had a nice chat about it. But back to this thread. I think a lot of Beatle keenies don't know their solo work very well - after all, there is a huge amount of it. They then retreat to what they know, and assume it's good, OR just go with "standard" opinion. Either way, this counts against Material World, and for Band On The Run. But it needs repeating: the vote does not matter. The discussion does. Without discussion, a forum dies. McCabe
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Joseph McCabe
Very Clean
A rebel to his last breath ...
Posts: 912
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Post by Joseph McCabe on Jan 31, 2011 23:59:00 GMT -5
I pledge that when I get the opportunity I will listen to the remixed LITMW and render an opinion on that. I already like it better because it has Miss O'Dell on it. That's what George needs on this record, a little humor. Remember though, the other extra track is Deep Blue: you won't find much humor in that track! But Deep Blue is a superb song. All in all, that period for George - All Things, the Bangla Desh Concert and the year afterwards culminating in Living In The Material World is a special time: still young, and the creative juices flowing strongly. Oh, to be 30 again! McCabe
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Post by Snookeroo on Feb 1, 2011 2:03:44 GMT -5
For what it's worth....... I like these tourneys. They are interesting, and CAN spark some very lively conversations. I do enjoy these kind of tourneys elewhere as well. I only recently started to join in on these here, if for no other reason, then because Joey puts alot of effort into them. But..... I couldn't make it halfway through reading this one before I had to bail out. I really can't stand to see/read the same few posters fall into a nasty-ass pissing match trying to either tear each other down, or one-up each other. These things start out great, but as you read along you can see it coming. It's a drag - a well known drag. Thanks for your work Joey. I tried. Are you referring to me as among "the same few posters trying to tear each other down in a nasty ass pissing match"? Since you asked - YUP!
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Post by Snookeroo on Feb 1, 2011 2:08:04 GMT -5
I think you missed my whole point Joe. The interesting conversation can be great. I know it can because I get into it on other sites. But it's the posters that simply can't get involved without turning it into something else. That kind of crap is the reason people drop out, or just give that "quickie" vote that seems to bug you. And it's not a situation where someone like myself can't "take it". It's just that it's not what I come here looking for. So, keeping it brief or leaving all together becomes the best option. There is no shortage of place to go on the internet to talk Beatles. I consider this site among the top places. It seems a shame for the bullshit to surface as often as it does in these discussions. There are always those people like yourself on each and every message board of any type, who want everyone to get along, not to have any "bullshit" or "friction" whatsoever - all the time, every moment, as if we're tip-toeing through the tulips together. That sounds very sweet, but I'm sorry ... the world and human beings do not operate like that, and neither do online message boards. And the problem is that not everyone is "looking for" the same things that you are. Everyone's different. I know that sounds like such an obvious statement that needs no stating ... but you'd be surprised! Now, I'm not saying that gives any individual a license to run hog wild and shout all sorts of awful obscenities and things against everyone. If that particular situation arises, the person in question gets reprimanded or banished from the site(s)... so don't worry, the moderators of all these boards are on the job. Please don't leave us, but if you do you should realize that no matter where else you go to "talk Beatles", you will always get these offbeat and "crappy" diversions... be they "Yoko stinks" or "John Versus Paul," or "the Beatles are better than Solo", or "Ringo's not the best drummer and I don't even buy his lousy solo records". I've been to other boards and, frankly, I've stuck with this one because I found it to be the best. I like you Joe. I really do. But you've got some balls. I don't need you to tell me how the world works - thank you very much. I not looking to tip toe through the tulips. If I did I'd never bring up the name "Yoko Ono". There's a difference between disagreeing, and being a schmuck about it. Oh, and I never said I was leaving all together. Just bailing out of these tourneys. I have backed away from many threads here because of the very reasons I'm bitching about now. That's really the right thing to do. This time I just had to pop off a bit. It must be the Bronx blood in me. I'm nearly done.
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Post by Snookeroo on Feb 1, 2011 2:15:58 GMT -5
"... Peace and love, peace and love" Beautiful Jason I. Rant over. Thanks for listening. Thanks for the couple of backups. Enough people don't see a big deal (or would rather not chime in). Carry on.
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Post by mikev on Feb 1, 2011 2:43:26 GMT -5
I pledge that when I get the opportunity I will listen to the remixed LITMW and render an opinion on that. I already like it better because it has Miss O'Dell on it. That's what George needs on this record, a little humor. Remember though, the other extra track is Deep Blue: you won't find much humor in that track! But Deep Blue is a superb song. All in all, that period for George - All Things, the Bangla Desh Concert and the year afterwards culminating in Living In The Material World is a special time: still young, and the creative juices flowing strongly. Oh, to be 30 again! McCabe Deep Blue is one of the best solo B-sides, as is Miss O'Dell.
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Post by vectisfabber on Feb 1, 2011 4:39:54 GMT -5
Deep Blue also contains some of George's best singing (solo, that is, he was always a great backup singer).
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Feb 1, 2011 6:04:37 GMT -5
I like you Joe. I really do. But you've got some balls. I don't need you to tell me how the world works I like you too, honestly. But you're right - I do have balls. And you're not the first to tell me and you won't be the last (one of my favorite memories was when one of my bosses told me that after I told him off ;D ). However ... one may also say it takes some balls for you to speak up and sort of chastize other posters, throwing around words like "crap" and "being a schmuck", or "pissing", etc. Hell, I wonder if it even went that far in the bickering you're referring to. That's all in the eye(s) of the beholder(s). One may very well say the same about your chastizing posts, to be fair. Hey, whatever works for you. All I'm saying is, to each his own. If you want to step away, go ahead. I enjoy the occasional banter and sparring if it happens to flow in that direction.
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Feb 1, 2011 6:08:08 GMT -5
some will find it's entertaining and amusing; some won't. That's an internet forum; hey - that's life! McCabe Careful .... some people might say they don't need us to remind them of what "life" is all about, and how the world works. But sometimes their objections do speak otherwise. But you've hit it right on the nosey there.
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Feb 1, 2011 6:13:51 GMT -5
"... Peace and love, peace and love" Hah! But even Ringo can be a nasty SOB too on occasion, right?
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Feb 1, 2011 6:25:01 GMT -5
And let us not forget how entertaining the python 'argument' sketch is. So... Because it illustrates absurdity by being absurd. And it's not THAT funny the second or third time you see it... JcS But the "argument" skit isn't really what's happening here; here, we have points being brought out and different things being discussed. We're not just saying "Yes I did," "No you didn't", "Yes it is", No it's not" over and over ...If that were the case I would agree it wasn't getting us anywhere. But there HAVE been different ideas and subjects brought up within the exchanges in this thread. Even if some people don't like that it gets a bit intense. But I think we have heard differing members' opinions on this by now, and not everyone agrees that this is a problem. So let people be who they are, as long as they are not so offensive to the point of being banned by the moderators. The moderators know what to do, when to tell someone to cool it, or stop all together. I'm just frankly sick and tired of wanting to make message boards feel like going to Church, or for everyone to become like a society of duplicate Stepford Wives. As I've said, you'll never find that on any message board on any topic. Not as long as they're populated by uniquely individual human beings, at any rate. It's like people who just post a one-line response, and never get very passionate or interesting, or involved in topics. Not that interesting the first time I see it, let alone over and over and over.
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Feb 1, 2011 6:43:29 GMT -5
I pledge that when I get the opportunity I will listen to the remixed LITMW and render an opinion on that. I already like it better because it has Miss O'Dell on it. That's what George needs on this record, a little humor. I love MISS O'DELL, but I would have hated if it had been on the album. It worked much better as a B-side, IMO. And I agree that DEEP BLUE is a superb song. I don't think George was concerned with trying to craft any "image". To me, that's always been a Paul McCartney trait.
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Post by ReturnToPepperland on Feb 1, 2011 9:36:40 GMT -5
Are you referring to me as among "the same few posters trying to tear each other down in a nasty ass pissing match"? Since you asked - YUP! I don't think I have ever been nasty to another board member. But I am about to make an exception. ;D That was a joke. I think I know what you mean. A few of us do get into arguments including the John vs. Paul discussion which turns some (many) off. But I really make an effort not to make them personal. We don't want to become bored members.
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Post by ReturnToPepperland on Feb 1, 2011 9:44:28 GMT -5
I pledge that when I get the opportunity I will listen to the remixed LITMW and render an opinion on that. I already like it better because it has Miss O'Dell on it. That's what George needs on this record, a little humor. I love MISS O'DELL, but I would have hated if it had been on the album. It worked much better as a B-side, IMO. And I agree that DEEP BLUE is a superb song. I don't think George was concerned with trying to craft any "image". To me, that's always been a Paul McCartney trait. Come on Joe. You don't think John and Yoko were crafting an image at all? Its not such a terrible thing. They're in show business when it comes down to it. You can't pretend they were above it.
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Post by ReturnToPepperland on Feb 1, 2011 9:46:43 GMT -5
I pledge that when I get the opportunity I will listen to the remixed LITMW and render an opinion on that. I already like it better because it has Miss O'Dell on it. That's what George needs on this record, a little humor. Remember though, the other extra track is Deep Blue: you won't find much humor in that track! But Deep Blue is a superb song. All in all, that period for George - All Things, the Bangla Desh Concert and the year afterwards culminating in Living In The Material World is a special time: still young, and the creative juices flowing strongly. Oh, to be 30 again! McCabe I always thought Deep Blue was brilliant. I'll go so far as to say its better than anything on LITMW except Give Me Love (Give Me Peace on Earth) and the Day the World Gets 'Round. The former might have been an even bigger hit (it was huge anyway) had George got the album out in time for Christmas 1972. And TDTWGR might have made a good follow-up single. In all this commotion about side one, side 2 (the superior side) has been neglected. Side two "The Lord Loves the One (That Loves the Lord)" – 4:34 This song is brilliant with the middle part taking the song to a higher level--like a Lennon/McCartney song. "Be Here Now" – 4:09 Blah. "Try Some, Buy Some" – 4:08 Initially recorded by Ronnie Spector in 1971 and co-produced by Phil Spector, Harrison re-used the same backing track (slightly sped up) for his own version. This song does nothing for me. "The Day the World Gets 'Round" – 2:53 This is a brilliant ballad. Again George moves the melody to places you don't expect and it really effective. "That Is All" – 3:43 Covered by Harry Nilsson on his …That's the Way It Is album (1976) and by Andy Williams on his Solitaire album (1973). This is a fine ballad though it doesn't reach the levels of ATMP. But how often does anyone do that. Living in the Material World was remastered and reissued in 2006 with two bonus tracks: "Deep Blue" - 3:47 Originally released as a B-side for the single "Bangla Desh". This is George at his most sincere and with a great melody. "Miss O'Dell" - 2:33 Originally released as a B-side for the single "Give Me Love (Give Me Peace on Earth)". A fun song. George had an infectious laugh. If you listen to the Beatles in the studio etc. you can hear George's laugh is prominent. I set myself up for some argument for not liking the first side of this album very much. I wasn't coming down on George as a no-talent. I think his songwriting at least equalled John and Paul by 1968 and later with the last Beatles albums and ATMP. I think he went into a little dry period after that. All the Beatles did at various times. LITMW was evidence of this though it has some fine tunes. When you go from 12 great tunes down to three or so it is a bit of a comedown. And Dark Horse and Extra Texture only made things worse. He came back again slowly with 33 1/3 and then more so with the George Harrison album. George should have immediately gone back in the studio in the early to mid-1971 and started on another single disc album perhaps with Phil Spector at his side. I know this is for another tournament.
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Feb 1, 2011 13:25:10 GMT -5
Come on Joe. You don't think John and Yoko were crafting an image at all? Its not such a terrible thing. They're in show business when it comes down to it. You can't pretend they were above it. I don't 'pretend' anything. There were times where John and Yoko may have formed an image, such as the "Peaceniks" thing. But they did what they wanted, and if it didn't sell records, it didn't sell records. If people made fun of them (and they certainly did!), they didn't care. J&Y's recorded works together certainly didn't do much to help their "image". What's more important to me is that you just cannot acknowledge that it is definitely more of a "Paul McCartney Trait" to be interested in projecting a certain likable and clean public image. Paul has always been the most concerned about his image.
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Post by Snookeroo on Feb 1, 2011 13:34:09 GMT -5
My heartfelt apologies to Joey for my taking this thread in another direction.
Dear posters, please get back to the tourney. If anyone wants to express any thought to me (good or bad) please send me a message.
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Post by brothermichael on Feb 1, 2011 14:49:53 GMT -5
I don't 'pretend' anything. There were times where John and Yoko may have formed an image, such as the "Peaceniks" thing. But they did what they wanted, and if it didn't sell records, it didn't sell records. If people made fun of them (and they certainly did!), they didn't care. J&Y's recorded works together certainly didn't do much to help their "image". What's more important to me is that you just cannot acknowledge that it is definitely more of a "Paul McCartney Trait" to be interested in projecting a certain likable and clean public image. Paul has always been the most concerned about his image.
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Post by joeyself on Feb 1, 2011 16:17:34 GMT -5
Sweet! I thought that was maybe from the Demotivators: www.despair.com/viewall.html but it's not. Check out that site if you've not seen it. JcS
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Post by theman on Feb 1, 2011 18:51:54 GMT -5
"... Peace and love, peace and love" Beautiful Jason I. Rant over. Thanks for listening. Thanks for the couple of backups. Enough people don't see a big deal (or would rather not chime in). Carry on. Another Bronx boy is with you, Snookeroo. That being said, I find the spirited debates here fun and interesting. I just don't like when it gets meanspirited. But that's just me.
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Post by theman on Feb 1, 2011 18:56:47 GMT -5
And, as George sang, "That Is All".
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Post by brothermichael on Feb 1, 2011 19:02:38 GMT -5
Sweet! I thought that was maybe from the Demotivators: www.despair.com/viewall.html but it's not. Check out that site if you've not seen it. JcS Thanks for the link!
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Post by ReturnToPepperland on Feb 1, 2011 20:55:41 GMT -5
Come on Joe. You don't think John and Yoko were crafting an image at all? Its not such a terrible thing. They're in show business when it comes down to it. You can't pretend they were above it. I don't 'pretend' anything. There were times where John and Yoko may have formed an image, such as the "Peaceniks" thing. But they did what they wanted, and if it didn't sell records, it didn't sell records. If people made fun of them (and they certainly did!), they didn't care. J&Y's recorded works together certainly didn't do much to help their "image". What's more important to me is that you just cannot acknowledge that it is definitely more of a "Paul McCartney Trait" to be interested in projecting a certain likable and clean public image. Paul has always been the most concerned about his image. That's the conventional wisdom I know but I don't necessarily buy it. I think they all had an image they wanted to craft even if the image was of someone who didn't care about crafting an image.
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