|
Post by coachbk on Nov 24, 2014 22:59:12 GMT -5
While JSD goes on his crusade to recognzie 69-70 Lennon and 70-73 McCartney, I want to put to rest another "myth" which is that John Lennon was in a "slump" in 1966-67 and thus made a "comeback" in 1968 on THE WHITE ALBUM. Note that this is not an attempt to put down John's 68 work, which is very good. However the idea of a "comeback" in 1968 is absurd as John never went went away. His 66-67 work is fantastic and some of the most creative pop music ever made. Of course this "myth" was created by John himself in his LENNON REMEMBERS interview. But it was more that John felt personally stronger on THE WHITE ALBUM than he did the previous two years. Musically he remained strong right from 64/65 through 66/67 and into 68. So let's compare 66/67 with 68: 66/67 Rain (4.5) I'm Only Sleeping (4) And Your Bird Can Sing (4.5) She Said She Said (3.5) Doctor Robert (3.5) Tomorrow Never Knows (5) Strawberry Fields Forever (5) Lucy In The Sky With Diamonds (4.5) Being For The Benefit Of Mr. Kite (4) Good Morning Good Morning (3) A Day In The Life (5) All You Need Is Love (4.5) Baby You're A Rich Man (4.5) I Am The Walrus (5) TOTAL: 61.5 AVERAGE: 4.393 68 Revolution (5) Dear Prudence (5) Glass Onion (3.5) The Continuing Story Of Bungalow Bill (3.5) I'm So Tired (4) Happiness Is A Warm Gun (4.5) Julia (4) Everybody's Got Something To Hide Except Me And My Monkey (3.5) Yer Blues (3) Sexy Sadie (3) Revolution 1(2) Revolution #9 (1) Cry Baby Cry (3.5) TOTAL: 45.5 AVERAGE: 3.423 AVERAGE (minus Rev 1 & 9): 3.864 And I will say I gave all "benefit of the doubt" to 68 recordings in giving out my ratings (trying to be unbiased).
1966/67 John Lennon was some of the greatest music ever written and recorded!!!!
|
|
|
Post by debjorgo on Nov 24, 2014 23:47:33 GMT -5
I'll play.
Rain (4.5) 5.0 I'm Only Sleeping (4) 4.5 And Your Bird Can Sing (4.5) 2.0 She Said She Said (3.5) 3.0 Doctor Robert (3.5) 4.0 Tomorrow Never Knows (5) 5.0 Strawberry Fields Forever (5) 5.0 Lucy In The Sky With Diamonds (4.5) 3.0 Being For The Benefit Of Mr. Kite (4) 2.0 Good Morning Good Morning (3) 3.0 A Day In The Life (5) 4.5 All You Need Is Love (4.5) 3.5 Baby You're A Rich Man (4.5) 4.0 I Am The Walrus (5) 5.0 3.82 68 Revolution (5) 5.0 Dear Prudence (5) 2.5 Glass Onion (3.5) 3.0 The Continuing Story Of Bungalow Bill (3.5) 3.5 I'm So Tired (4) 5.0 Happiness Is A Warm Gun (4.5) 5.0 Julia (4) 2.5 Everybody's Got Something To Hide Except Me And My Monkey (3.5) 3.0 Yer Blues (3) 5.0 Sexy Sadie (3) 3.0 Revolution 1(2) 4.5 Revolution #9 (1) 2.0 Cry Baby Cry (3.5) 5.0 3.77 I surprised myself. 66-67 gets a slight nod over 68 but it's much closer than you have it, coach. I was going to comment on each song but it's too late. Maybe tomorrow.
|
|
|
Post by John S. Damm on Nov 24, 2014 23:53:13 GMT -5
Hey, I love your crusade although I don't want to throw John's 1968 stuff under the bus(and I know you aren't doing that Coach! I have loved Revolver simply because John and Paul are so awesome on it in entirely different ways! And then throw in George who shines and Ringo even sings a hit! Okay, I vote to support that John was freaking amazing in 1966-1967(and so was Paul!).
|
|
|
Post by Panther on Nov 25, 2014 4:12:26 GMT -5
Okay, but here's the two things: 1) The 1966/67 stuff you're evaluating comes from three albums, whereas the 1968 stuff is from one. 2) The 1968 stuff is more John 'solo'. The 1966/67 stuff is 'helped' a lot by Paul's energy/drive/work-obsession. (Also, you gave 'Revolution 1' a score of 2... )
|
|
|
Post by vectisfabber on Nov 25, 2014 4:53:46 GMT -5
I've never really thought about it before, but look at that list of 1967 stuff and you see LSD in pretty nearly every track.
|
|
|
Post by coachbk on Nov 25, 2014 9:47:29 GMT -5
Okay, but here's the two things: 1) The 1966/67 stuff you're evaluating comes from three albums, whereas the 1968 stuff is from one. 2) The 1968 stuff is more John 'solo'. The 1966/67 stuff is 'helped' a lot by Paul's energy/drive/work-obsession. (Also, you gave 'Revolution 1' a score of 2... ) 1) True, but the 68 album is a double album so that kind of counts as two albums. 2) Also true, but then I could add that John had more say in Paul's songs in 66/67-particularly "Getting Better" and "She's Leaving Home"-but he had his hand in just about everything (even Paul admits that). (And I was being generous giving "Revolution 1 a "2". I really hate the song-too slow and boring. My personal rating would be a "1". (And note I LOVE the "Revolution" single, which I rated as a "5").
|
|
|
Post by vectisfabber on Nov 25, 2014 10:42:17 GMT -5
OK, I'll play too.
Rain 5.0 I'm Only Sleeping 4.5 And Your Bird Can Sing 4.5 She Said She Said 4.5 Doctor Robert 2.0 Tomorrow Never Knows 1.5 Strawberry Fields Forever 5.0 Lucy In The Sky With Diamonds 4.5 Being For The Benefit Of Mr. Kite 3.5 Good Morning Good Morning 4.0 A Day In The Life 5.0 All You Need Is Love 3.0 Baby You're A Rich Man 4.0 I Am The Walrus 5.0 56 = 4.0
Revolution 5.0 Dear Prudence 3.5 Glass Onion 2.0 The Continuing Story Of Bungalow Bill 1.5 I'm So Tired 4.5 Happiness Is A Warm Gun 5.0 Julia 4.0 Everybody's Got Something To Hide Except Me And My Monkey 1.0 Yer Blues 1.5 Sexy Sadie 2.0 Revolution 4.5 Revolution #9 0.0 Cry Baby Cry 3.5 Goodnight 3.5 42 = 3.0
A much bigger difference than I anticipated. Thanks heavens for acid screwing up his brain!
|
|
markc
Very Clean
Posts: 447
|
Post by markc on Nov 25, 2014 11:17:19 GMT -5
Gotta consider Hey Bulldog, Goodbye and maybe Across the Universe for John in 1968.
|
|
markc
Very Clean
Posts: 447
|
Post by markc on Nov 25, 2014 11:18:25 GMT -5
Hey Bulldog 5.0
|
|
|
Post by coachbk on Nov 25, 2014 14:37:41 GMT -5
Gotta consider Hey Bulldog, Goodbye and maybe Across the Universe for John in 1968. Goodbye is Paul's song. Did you mean "Good Night"? I thought about including that. I'd give it a 3. I thought about "Hey Bulldog" and "Across The Universe", but I was going for year of release which puts "Hey Bulldog in 1969 (and I would give it a 4.5). I'm not sure when the WWF version of "Across The Universe" came out, but I would give that a 4. (the annoying high background vocals). All other Beatles versions of "Across The Universe" (including the LET IT BE version which is what most people know) I would give a 5. Make no mistake, John was still great in 68. It just wasn't a "comeback" because he was already fantastic 64-67 (and had some pretty good stuff in 63 too!). And I agree that he continued to be near the top of his game through 1971.
|
|
markc
Very Clean
Posts: 447
|
Post by markc on Nov 25, 2014 15:28:54 GMT -5
Yes Coach I did mean Goodnight! I was thinking ATU with Lizzie Bravo was recorded in '68, but I'll have to check my Lewisohn.
|
|
markc
Very Clean
Posts: 447
|
Post by markc on Nov 25, 2014 15:31:29 GMT -5
I love the the swirling sitar or whatever instrument in the fade out in the Naked version, which combined with John's voice, seem to be drifting off across the universe.
|
|
|
Post by debjorgo on Nov 25, 2014 18:34:10 GMT -5
Hey Bulldog 5.0
Across the Universe 3.5 (Either version, I like Lizzie and Gayleen's singing.) It was recorded February 1968. The Let it Be version is the same version just remixed (no Lizzie or Gayleen) and slowed down a tad. I sort of feel like I know Lizzie. She frequents Greg's Beatle Photo Blog. She commented on a comment I made on the site once. My brush with a brush with fame.
Goodnight 1.0 Before remotes, I would hurt myself getting up to change it. Not a fan of Goodnight.
|
|
|
Post by Panther on Nov 25, 2014 18:35:35 GMT -5
Well, if you were to compare 1966 alone, or 1967 alone, to 1968, I think '68 wins. Certainly more prolific. It seems like he wrote as many songs in India in 6 weeks or whatever as he'd written in the previous two years.
|
|
|
Post by coachbk on Nov 26, 2014 20:16:33 GMT -5
Well, if you were to compare 1966 alone, or 1967 alone, to 1968, I think '68 wins. Certainly more prolific. It seems like he wrote as many songs in India in 6 weeks or whatever as he'd written in the previous two years. I will concede that the quantity of good songs John wrote in a fairly short period of time is impressive. I still maintain that the quality in both 1966 and 1967 individually exceeds 1968. So perhaps if one were to combine the attributes of quantity and quality all three years come out looking pretty good. (as would 63, 64, 65, 69, 70, and 71). 1965 might be the best for quality and quantity in my opinion!
|
|
|
Post by stavros on Nov 27, 2014 18:02:14 GMT -5
I always felt John and Paul were still very much a team right up until "Pepper". John shines brightest during the Rubber Soul era and Paul during Revolver. But only by fine margins.
During a Psychedelic 1967 John is still pushing boundaries but perhaps miffed that first "Strawberry Fields" and then "Walrus" were relegated to the b-sides of more 'poptastic' Macca efforts. Although he does get both sides for "All You Need is Love" b/w "Baby You're A Rich Man".
Did he make a comeback in 1968? Not really. He simply changed direction.
I always think the time of the White Album as the era when the Beatles went "indie" defining a sound that many bands would develop over the next 3 decades and beyond.
So I'll refrain from awarding a score to each and every track and simply say John wasn't superior in 66/67 because he was still developing his song writing and all turned out well in 1968. You could argue he ran out of new ideas after the White Album but certainly not before.
|
|
|
Post by Panther on Nov 27, 2014 18:19:11 GMT -5
I think in John's mind 1965 was his "Fat Elvis" year when he became lazier and lost control of the group a bit. Then in 1966 Paul was more active, more prolific, and had the A-sides. Then, in 1967, Paul seemed to be almost running the show.
But in 1968 John came back from India with a huge batch of songs, (relatively) sober for the first time in a few years, ditched Cynthia and brought Yoko home, and recorded his White Album songs. In John's mind at the time, he seemed to see this period as his recovering control of the group, somewhat.
|
|
|
Post by debjorgo on Nov 27, 2014 19:18:17 GMT -5
With the exception of In My Life, I like Paul's songs better on Rubber Soul and I like John's songs better on Revolver, with the exception of For No One.
Here's my new rankings, separating '66 and '67 and adding the three new additions. Rain (4.5) 5.0 5.0 I'm Only Sleeping (4) 4.5 4.5 And Your Bird Can Sing (4.5) 2.0 2.0 She Said She Said (3.5) 3.0 3.0 Doctor Robert (3.5) 4.0 4.0 Tomorrow Never Knows (5) 5.0 5.0 3.9 Strawberry Fields Forever (5) 5.0 5.0 Lucy In The Sky With Diamonds (4.5) 3.0 3.0 Being For The Benefit Of Mr. Kite (4) 2.0 2.0 Good Morning Good Morning (3) 3.0 3.0 A Day In The Life (5) 4.5 4.5 All You Need Is Love (4.5) 3.5 3.5 Baby You're A Rich Man (4.5) 4.0 4.0 I Am The Walrus (5) 5.0 5.0 3.8 68 Revolution (5) 5.0 5.0 Dear Prudence (5) 2.5 2.5 Glass Onion (3.5) 3.0 3.0 The Continuing Story Of Bungalow Bill (3.5) 3.5 3.5 I'm So Tired (4) 5.0 5.0 Happiness Is A Warm Gun (4.5) 5.0 5.0 Julia (4) 2.5 2.5 Everybody's Got Something To Hide Except Me And My Monkey (3.5) 3.0 3.0 Yer Blues (3) 5.0 5.0 Sexy Sadie (3) 3.0 3.0 Revolution 1(2) 4.5 4.5 Revolution #9 (1) 2.0 2.0 Cry Baby Cry (3.5) 5.0 5.0 Hey Bulldog 5.0 5.0 Across the Universe 3.5 Goodnight 1.0 3.7 Take Goodbye out and '68 ties '67.
|
|
|
Post by Panther on Nov 28, 2014 0:05:07 GMT -5
With the exception of In My Life, I like Paul's songs better on Rubber Soul and I like John's songs better on Revolver, with the exception of For No One. I don't think too many people agree that John's songs are better than Paul's (or even George's 3, arguably) on Revolver. I'm Only Sleeping / She Said She Said / And Your Bird Can Sing / Dr. Robert / Tomorrow Never KnowsI like all these songs in degrees, but not one would be a "Lennon classic", in my view. At least John got his 5-ish songs on there on the original UK album. Capitol USA knocked three songs off -- all John's -- to leave only: She Said She Said / Tomorrow Never Knows
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 28, 2014 3:18:04 GMT -5
I like the 66-67 period after looking at those lists. I think the songs on the 66-67 list are far superior.
|
|
|
Post by debjorgo on Nov 28, 2014 7:46:14 GMT -5
With the exception of In My Life, I like Paul's songs better on Rubber Soul and I like John's songs better on Revolver, with the exception of For No One. I don't think too many people agree that John's songs are better than Paul's (or even George's 3, arguably) on Revolver. I'm Only Sleeping / She Said She Said / And Your Bird Can Sing / Dr. Robert / Tomorrow Never KnowsI like all these songs in degrees, but not one would be a "Lennon classic", in my view. At least John got his 5-ish songs on there on the original UK album. Capitol USA knocked three songs off -- all John's -- to leave only: She Said She Said / Tomorrow Never KnowsI like the Beatles when they rock. Got to Get You Into My Life, Here, There and Everywhere, Good Day Sunshine, they are all too pop for me. Eleanor Rigby is not exactly Rock and Roll either. John and George are both rocking hard, albeit with help from Paul and some assistance from their dentist. Sgt Pepper is a comeback album from Paul, in my eyes. His songs are still more pop, but he adds some electric guitar licks to rock them up.
|
|
|
Post by coachbk on Nov 28, 2014 23:32:49 GMT -5
[quote
I'm Only Sleeping / She Said She Said / And Your Bird Can Sing / Dr. Robert / Tomorrow Never Knows
I like all these songs in degrees, but not one would be a "Lennon classic", in my view.
At least John got his 5-ish songs on there on the original UK album. Capitol USA knocked three songs off -- all John's -- to leave only:
She Said She Said / Tomorrow Never Knows quote
Tomorrow Never Knows is a Lennon classic. And Your Bird Can Sing is not far behind
And agree the US REVOLVER is a huge disappointment. I'm glad I bought the full 14 song UK version (quite by accident) back in 1977.
If the US had to take off three songs it should have been one each from John, Paul, and George.
|
|
|
Post by coachbk on Nov 28, 2014 23:37:51 GMT -5
And I love the eclectic nature of the Beatles music which is why I love REVOLVER. There are no bad songs and there are five songs I consider "classics": Eleanor Rigby Taxman For No One Tomorrow Never Knows Here There & Everywhere
And Your Bird Can Sing isn't far off making it six classics.
Plus both sides of the single Paperback Writer and Rain are classics.
And there are no weak songs on REVOLVER. Even my choices for the two weakest (Yellow Submarine and Love You To) are interesting as one is a catchy novelty and the other was the first Beatles song to make extensive use of Indian music.
|
|