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Post by acebackwords on Mar 31, 2010 13:00:42 GMT -5
I had an odd thought (and not the first time for that). The three greatest pop stars -- slash -- singers-of-romantic-love-ballads of our times were probably Lennon, Presley and Sinatra. And all three of them had two things in common. They were raised as only children. And they were all Mama's boys. Is that a prerequisite for being about to command center stage and get all the chicks going with the love ballads?
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Post by coachbk on Mar 31, 2010 13:22:56 GMT -5
I would say Paul McCartney was more of a singer of love ballads than John Lennon (though John did do his share). I don't think of Sinatra as much of a singer of love ballads. Sinatra was more of an entertainer than singer. If I had to pick someone of that style I'd go with Andy Williams. Elvis did them, but was much better when he rocked. So I guess I disagree with your list of 3 guys, but as for the premise, Paul's mother died when he was about 12 so maybe there is something to your though!
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Post by sayne on Mar 31, 2010 14:45:04 GMT -5
When asked whose music he put on when he wanted to set the "mood," Sinatra said "Johnny Mathis."
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Post by acebackwords on Mar 31, 2010 14:59:38 GMT -5
I would say Paul McCartney was more of a singer of love ballads than John Lennon (though John did do his share). I don't think of Sinatra as much of a singer of love ballads. Well, what I'm referring to specifically is pop singers who could really get the chicks squealing. And Sinatra was certainly the undisputed king of the "bobby soxer" set during his day. And not to dispute McCartney's obvious talents as a chick magnet and balladeer, during the peak of Beatlemania when the chicks were squealing the loudest, the Beatles were indisputably Lennon's band (neither the other 3 Beatles or Brian Epstein would dispute this claim). "A Hard Day's Night" has been described as practically a "Lennon solo album." And when you look at the ratio of John to Paul songs during that period, there's probably some credence to that claim. Its quite possible McCartney might not have come into his own in that regard if he hadn't been able to follow Lennon's lead.
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Post by ursamajor on Apr 1, 2010 22:57:31 GMT -5
Not sure how you can call John a mama's boy.
I guess Paul was the rebel that took drugs, got drunk and got into fights.
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Post by acebackwords on Apr 2, 2010 13:53:43 GMT -5
Oh come on, Ursamajor. John's number one name for Yoko was "Mother." He repeatedly talked about how obsessed he was with his mother. Even sexually. Wrote a song crying like a baby "Mommy come home!!" I rest my case, your honor.
P.S. The "bad boy rebel" pose is often just the flipside of the mama's boy thing. Acting up so they get scolded by mommy. (Johnny Rotten of the Sex Pistols, by the way, is another one with a very close relationship with a perhaps overly-adoring mother.) I don't mean to get too psychological or icky here. It just struck me as interesting that three of the greatest pop stars of our times seemingly had this in common.
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Post by John S. Damm on Apr 2, 2010 18:57:40 GMT -5
This is interesting although I know nothing of Sinatra's childhood.
Elvis had a very weird thing going with his mama or so it has been written and John was horribly conflicted about his mother. In Aunt Mimi's world, men were weak idiots, mere tools and John was raised in that environment although Mimi did seem to idolize John(not that he would have known it by her daily actions).
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Post by ursamajor on Apr 2, 2010 19:38:42 GMT -5
Oh come on, Ursamajor. John's number one name for Yoko was "Mother." He repeatedly talked about how obsessed he was with his mother. Even sexually. Wrote a song crying like a baby "Mommy come home!!" I rest my case, your honor. P.S. The "bad boy rebel" pose is often just the flipside of the mama's boy thing. Acting up so they get scolded by mommy. (Johnny Rotten of the Sex Pistols, by the way, is another one with a very close relationship with a perhaps overly-adoring mother.) I don't mean to get too psychological or icky here. It just struck me as interesting that three of the greatest pop stars of our times seemingly had this in common. Dude the guy said he was uncontrollable. Go watch the movie Nowhere Boy and see if you still think John's a mama's boy.
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Post by vectisfabber on Apr 2, 2010 20:08:28 GMT -5
That well known bundle of facts Nowhere Boy. Films aren't real y'know. Read some of the interviews about how they were far more concerned with telling an involving story than simply recounting the factual life of young John. I'm all for picking up info wherever one may - and sifting through possibles, probables, contradictions etc. - but this one is already on record, from its own mouth, as being factual only when it suits it.
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Post by ursamajor on Apr 3, 2010 0:46:45 GMT -5
That well known bundle of facts Nowhere Boy. Films aren't real y'know. Read some of the interviews about how they were far more concerned with telling an involving story than simply recounting the factual life of young John. I'm all for picking up info wherever one may - and sifting through possibles, probables, contradictions etc. - but this one is already on record, from its own mouth, as being factual only when it suits it. I think we maybe have a different opinion of what a mama's boy is. Guys that can't do a damn thing without their mother's knowledge. Pussies, wusses etc. This doesn't mean guys calling to speak to their mother are mummy's boys either. Paul by far fits more the character of a mummy's boy more than any rock star. Alot of his music is mummy's boy to begin with. You have picked the wrong guys.
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Apr 3, 2010 5:49:17 GMT -5
I think we maybe have a different opinion of what a mama's boy is. Guys that can't do a damn thing without their mother's knowledge. Pussies, wusses etc. This doesn't mean guys calling to speak to their mother are mummy's boys either. Paul by far fits more the character of a mummy's boy more than any rock star. Alot of his music is mummy's boy to begin with. You have picked the wrong guys. John was far from a Mama's Boy. For starters, you first have to have a 'mummy' around and doting on you like a little prince in order to soften and qualify ... and John didn't even have a mom! John was a rough and ready teddy boy outcast, completely rock 'n roll. Mummy's boy isn't anywhere to be found in his range. Sometimes it is truly astounding, the degree to which this 're-working' of John Lennon has sunk -- first as some kind of 'bipolar manic depressive', then to a 'chronic liar and con man', and now to a 'sissy mummy's boy'.
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Post by vectisfabber on Apr 3, 2010 6:26:19 GMT -5
That well known bundle of facts Nowhere Boy. Films aren't real y'know. Read some of the interviews about how they were far more concerned with telling an involving story than simply recounting the factual life of young John. I'm all for picking up info wherever one may - and sifting through possibles, probables, contradictions etc. - but this one is already on record, from its own mouth, as being factual only when it suits it. I think we maybe have a different opinion of what a mama's boy is. Guys that can't do a damn thing without their mother's knowledge. Pussies, wusses etc. This doesn't mean guys calling to speak to their mother are mummy's boys either. Paul by far fits more the character of a mummy's boy more than any rock star. Alot of his music is mummy's boy to begin with. You have picked the wrong guys. I wasn't commenting on whether or not John was a Mummy's boy (for what it's worth, despite the fact that he clearly had issues in that area, I don't think he was anything like a Mummy's Boy. Paul neither). I was commenting on the wisdom of quoting any of the factional movies, but particularly Nowhere Boy, as a credible source of information.
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Apr 3, 2010 6:31:30 GMT -5
Oh come on, Ursamajor. John's number one name for Yoko was "Mother." He repeatedly talked about how obsessed he was with his mother. Even sexually. Wrote a song crying like a baby "Mommy come home!!" I rest my case, your honor. How is this the same thing as being a "Mama's Boy"? Yes, John called Yoko "Mother", and sure, he always wanted and needed a mom. But that's not the same thing to me as being a "wussy" or a "Mama's Boy" or a "sissy" who can't fend for himself without hiding behind mommy's skirt. As a boy and a teenager, John was not a Mama's Boy. I'll go so far as to say that John DID become something closer to one late in life with Yoko later on, where he DID depend on Yoko (aka "Mother").
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Post by John S. Damm on Apr 3, 2010 11:44:19 GMT -5
I am not prepared to call John a momma's boy either although he had "mother issues" as I write above.
It cannot be disputed though that Elvis was a huge "momma's boy" as he shared a bed with his mother until he was in his late teens and that is not healthy, not healthy at all.
After his wife gave birth to Lisa Marie, he found it hard if not impossible to have sex with her because she was now a mother to his child.
Sinatra's ties to his mother I know nothing about and am going on ace's word. I think though that ace is accurate in pointing out that at least Elvis and John had weird mother dynamics going on(and for Frank too if ace has read something about that).
I am not sure yet what we can draw from this connection as Charles Manson had major mother issues too(his mother was a teenage prostitute who left him) and he didn't go on to greatness, infamy yes but greatness no.
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Post by ursamajor on Apr 3, 2010 18:25:37 GMT -5
I think we maybe have a different opinion of what a mama's boy is. Guys that can't do a damn thing without their mother's knowledge. Pussies, wusses etc. This doesn't mean guys calling to speak to their mother are mummy's boys either. Paul by far fits more the character of a mummy's boy more than any rock star. Alot of his music is mummy's boy to begin with. You have picked the wrong guys. I wasn't commenting on whether or not John was a Mummy's boy (for what it's worth, despite the fact that he clearly had issues in that area, I don't think he was anything like a Mummy's Boy. Paul neither). I was commenting on the wisdom of quoting any of the factional movies, but particularly Nowhere Boy, as a credible source of information. Well the movie was well researched and if you look at the way the young John character was depicted in the movie it fits those old black and white photo's of John as a teenager heading into adolescence. I normally take films on real people with a grain of salt but his one was very well done and seemed realistic. They did make the young Paul look wimpy and small but then again he was only 14 and maybe he was that small at that age so I will take that part with a grain of salt.
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Post by vectisfabber on Apr 3, 2010 19:54:05 GMT -5
Yes, it was researched, but they are on record as saying that their intention was NOT to make "The Life Of John Lennon" and they were happy to abandon facts if it suited theeir dramatic purposes. Therefore, in my book, the film is not a valid information resource - go back to the sources they used, not the film itself.
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Post by ursamajor on Apr 3, 2010 20:11:54 GMT -5
Yes, it was researched, but they are on record as saying that their intention was NOT to make "The Life Of John Lennon" and they were happy to abandon facts if it suited theeir dramatic purposes. Therefore, in my book, the film is not a valid information resource - go back to the sources they used, not the film itself. The movie is based on Julia Baird's book Imagine This : Growing Up With My Brother John Lennon. As we all know Julia was John's half-sister so she would know the character of the young John better than anyone , you would conclude that alot of the incidents in the film actually happenned as she was living with John during this time. You should go see it, it's a great film.
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Apr 4, 2010 5:30:01 GMT -5
It cannot be disputed though that Elvis was a huge "momma's boy" as he shared a bed with his mother until he was in his late teens and that is not healthy, not healthy at all. My cue! This may not even be true (there I go again! ;D). This is one of those stories that came out long after Elvis had died, in yet another dubious "tell-all" trash book. In fact, you know that friend I have who is a real Elvis nut? Well, he was at the GERALDO TV Show taping in 1992 where he spoke up in the audience and blasted the woman who wrote the book. I think her name was Dee Stanley, though somehow she'd acquired the Presley name. Also on the panel were Elvis' closest aging friends and bandmates who knew him best over his life and they denied her allegations. By the way, a year or so ago there was even some kind of absurd tabloid or newspaper story that John Lennon slept with his mom. Once some of the guys got wind of that, they thought they were being humorous by teasing me with it every day as an absolute "fact". So it goes, and it's a real problem when it comes to celebrity gossip. I'm not positive, but I think this one was pretty well documented, even by the King himself.
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Post by vectisfabber on Apr 4, 2010 5:41:53 GMT -5
The movie is based on Julia Baird's book Imagine This : Growing Up With My Brother John Lennon. As we all know Julia was John's half-sister so she would know the character of the young John better than anyone , you would conclude that alot of the incidents in the film actually happenned as she was living with John during this time. I know much of the research came from Julia's book. Doesn't alter the fact that, because it was their intention to tell a story rather than recount facts, it is not reliable as a resource. Julia's book IS reliable as a resource (in terms of being her recollections). I intended to see it, but it was only at our local cinema (where I normally see at least 3 movies a week, I have an unlimited pass) for a week, and it was the week when we were cut off by snow - which we never have! - so I missed it. I will catch it on video - we'll have an evening with Scary Mary and Big Plod Steve, my two fellow local Beatlefans.
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Apr 4, 2010 5:46:37 GMT -5
Here's a great LIVE television clip where trashy author Albert Goldman gets abused and attacked by author Philip Norman (who wrote SHOUT!) and other audience members for his slime books on John Lennon and Elvis Presley:
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Post by joeyself on Apr 4, 2010 8:56:24 GMT -5
By the way, a year or so ago there was even some kind of absurd tabloid or newspaper story that John Lennon slept with his mom. Once some of the guys got wind of that, they thought they were being humorous by teasing me with it every day as an absolute "fact". So it goes, and it's a real problem when it comes to celebrity gossip. My recollection was that the story was Lennon had fantastized about being with his mom. Your note caused me to do a search. I never really paid much attention to this at the time--I thought someone was trying to sell a book or something--but I found this article with a link to an audio clip www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/showbiz/bizarre/article1679838.eceSome may have reported it as actually having done it, but I don't remember seeing such. JcS
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Apr 4, 2010 11:48:48 GMT -5
My recollection was that the story was Lennon had fantastized about being with his mom. Your note caused me to do a search. I never really paid much attention to this at the time--I thought someone was trying to sell a book or something--but I found this article with a link to an audio clip www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/showbiz/bizarre/article1679838.eceSome may have reported it as actually having done it, but I don't remember seeing such. JcS Yup, that's Lennon's voice. Now that I've listened it sounds to me like part of his audio diary which he kept during 1979. As a matter of fact, I recall a snippet of those spoken diaries appearing on the vinyl bootleg series THE LOST LENNON TAPES. I don't recall if this particular section came from the album or not, but there's no doubt that John is relating his memories here. My feeling is that 14-year-old John was overcome with an odd sexual urge there and then at that moment. I don't think that necessarily meant that he frequently fantasized of having sex with his mother (maybe he did, but I wouldn't think so). John Lennon was certainly an unusual one, but an admission like that can easily be taken to all sorts of extremes.
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Post by John S. Damm on Apr 4, 2010 19:29:43 GMT -5
It cannot be disputed though that Elvis was a huge "momma's boy" as he shared a bed with his mother until he was in his late teens and that is not healthy, not healthy at all. My cue! This may not even be true (there I go again! ;D). This is one of those stories that came out long after Elvis had died, in yet another dubious "tell-all" trash book. In fact, you know that friend I have who is a real Elvis nut? Well, he was at the GERALDO TV Show taping in 1992 where he spoke up in the audience and blasted the woman who wrote the book. I think her name was Dee Stanley, though somehow she'd acquired the Presley name. Also on the panel were Elvis' closest aging friends and bandmates who knew him best over his life and they denied her allegations. By the way, a year or so ago there was even some kind of absurd tabloid or newspaper story that John Lennon slept with his mom. Once some of the guys got wind of that, they thought they were being humorous by teasing me with it every day as an absolute "fact". So it goes, and it's a real problem when it comes to celebrity gossip. I'm not positive, but I think this one was pretty well documented, even by the King himself. I am not saying Elvis had sex with his mom but that they slept in the same bed for much too long although that is still a little too intimate for a mother and her teenage son!
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Post by joeyself on Apr 4, 2010 21:25:38 GMT -5
My feeling is that 14-year-old John was overcome with an odd sexual urge there and then at that moment. I don't think that necessarily meant that he frequently fantasized of having sex with his mother (maybe he did, but I wouldn't think so). John Lennon was certainly an unusual one, but an admission like that can easily be taken to all sorts of extremes. I agree that such an admission could be taken to extremes, but I don't recall seeing it taken to what you said that caught my eye: "By the way, a year or so ago there was even some kind of absurd tabloid or newspaper story that John Lennon slept with his mom." There is a distinct difference from saying Lennon saying he had sex with his mom, and him saying he had a fantasy as a 14 year old about it. That's not to say that some may have reported it as you described it, only that I didn't see it, nor did I see it as I did my search today. JcS
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Apr 5, 2010 5:20:51 GMT -5
My feeling is that 14-year-old John was overcome with an odd sexual urge there and then at that moment. I don't think that necessarily meant that he frequently fantasized of having sex with his mother (maybe he did, but I wouldn't think so). John Lennon was certainly an unusual one, but an admission like that can easily be taken to all sorts of extremes. I agree that such an admission could be taken to extremes, but I don't recall seeing it taken to what you said that caught my eye: "By the way, a year or so ago there was even some kind of absurd tabloid or newspaper story that John Lennon slept with his mom." There is a distinct difference from saying Lennon saying he had sex with his mom, and him saying he had a fantasy as a 14 year old about it. That's not to say that some may have reported it as you described it, only that I didn't see it, nor did I see it as I did my search today. JcS Point being that people take it to extremes. I myself had never seen this item, back whenever it was that it was presented in the news. But people at work had, and they were the ones who interpreted to such an extreme manner. That's what happens when this type of talk is spread, and how it affects people's impressions.
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Apr 5, 2010 5:21:49 GMT -5
I am not saying Elvis had sex with his mom but that they slept in the same bed for much too long although that is still a little too intimate for a mother and her teenage son! But you entirely missed my point. HOW do you know this to be "fact"? Other than that dubious book by the denounced Ms. Stanley, where did this originate? Did Elvis himself or his mother verify it? Both are dead (naturally). Did Elvis' dad verify it? All I know is, Elvis' best friend and lifelong confidante, Joe Esposito, was strongly denying that. So too were all Presley's other associates. And even if mom and teen son, for whatever reasons, were poor to the point of being required to share a bed for an unusual length of time, I think it's odd as hell, possible to do so with nothing "strange" happening. Not saying it's normal or the best circumstances, but that it can sound worse than it was to either of them.
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Post by joeyself on Apr 5, 2010 7:06:03 GMT -5
I agree that such an admission could be taken to extremes, but I don't recall seeing it taken to what you said that caught my eye: "By the way, a year or so ago there was even some kind of absurd tabloid or newspaper story that John Lennon slept with his mom." There is a distinct difference from saying Lennon saying he had sex with his mom, and him saying he had a fantasy as a 14 year old about it. That's not to say that some may have reported it as you described it, only that I didn't see it, nor did I see it as I did my search today. JcS Point being that people take it to extremes. I myself had never seen this item, back whenever it was that it was presented in the news. But people at work had, and they were the ones who interpreted to such an extreme manner. That's what happens when this type of talk is spread, and how it affects people's impressions. So, it wasn't the tabloid reports--which you hadn't seen--but rather the inability of those that work with you to read and comprehend English that led you to think the story was something other than it was? JcS
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Post by John S. Damm on Apr 5, 2010 8:30:04 GMT -5
I am not saying Elvis had sex with his mom but that they slept in the same bed for much too long although that is still a little too intimate for a mother and her teenage son! But you entirely missed my point. HOW do you know this to be "fact"? Other than that dubious book by the denounced Ms. Stanley, where did this originate? Did Elvis himself or his mother verify it? Both are dead (naturally). Did Elvis' dad verify it? All I know is, Elvis' best friend and lifelong confidante, Joe Esposito, was strongly denying that. So too were all Presley's other associates. And even if mom and teen son, for whatever reasons, were poor to the point of being required to share a bed for an unusual length of time, I think it's odd as hell, possible to do so with nothing "strange" happening. Not saying it's normal or the best circumstances, but that it can sound worse than it was to either of them. Joe Esposito is part of or the leader of the Memphis Mafia and he writes books on Elvis and has consulted on films. Diamond Joe has a stake in keeping a certain Elvis image going, perhaps an image of danger and sex appeal to hot babes but not an image of our hero sleeping with his momma! Yuck! Diamond Joe Esposito didn't know Elvis until the Army anyway so he could not have known firsthand about what Elvis did as a teen. I thought Elvis himself has admitted to being a "momma's boy" although no one in their right mind is going to admit sleeping in the same bed with their mama until they were 16 or 17! ;D It is more socially acceptable to admit teenage bed-wetting! ;D
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Post by acebackwords on Apr 5, 2010 9:02:23 GMT -5
I think we maybe have a different opinion of what a mama's boy is. I just meant: a guy who was hung up on his mother. A guy who maybe had a doting, overly-attentive mother. A guy who was really concerned with mother's approraval. That kind of thing. Didn't necessarily mean it as a put-down or as a "wuss." I guess everybody defines these things differently.
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Post by joshferrell on Apr 6, 2010 14:21:29 GMT -5
It cannot be disputed though that Elvis was a huge "momma's boy" as he shared a bed with his mother until he was in his late teens and that is not healthy, not healthy at all. My cue! This may not even be true (there I go again! ;D). This is one of those stories that came out long after Elvis had died, in yet another dubious "tell-all" trash book. In fact, you know that friend I have who is a real Elvis nut? Well, he was at the GERALDO TV Show taping in 1992 where he spoke up in the audience and blasted the woman who wrote the book. I think her name was Dee Stanley, though somehow she'd acquired the Presley name. Also on the panel were Elvis' closest aging friends and bandmates who knew him best over his life and they denied her allegations. By the way, a year or so ago there was even some kind of absurd tabloid or newspaper story that John Lennon slept with his mom. Once some of the guys got wind of that, they thought they were being humorous by teasing me with it every day as an absolute "fact". So it goes, and it's a real problem when it comes to celebrity gossip. I'm not positive, but I think this one was pretty well documented, even by the King himself. yes her name was Dee Stanley and she went as far to say that they had sex together and that vernon (allegedly) told her that..but of course any one with the stanley name in Elvis' world (except rick) can't be trusted, all of them have written some horrible stuff about him,and have worked with Goldman as well....at least Lamar Fike (the MM member who worked with Goldman) apologized for working with Goldman and stated that he didn't think (at the time) Goldman would make such a horrible book about Elvis,the stanleys have never admited they were wrong for working with Goldman..but yeah maybe he slept in the same bed (I can't say for sure) but I don't know if ANYONE can really say for sure..just look at the source from which the story came from..the Stanleys.....
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