lowbasso
A Hard Day's Knight
Posts: 2,776
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Post by lowbasso on Oct 31, 2011 0:51:20 GMT -5
Bill Harry says he's not sure but it could be. Does that mean Stuart indeed had a lyric tenor voice? With no recording of Stuart's voice known to exist, either speaking or singing, all we have to rely on is the aural memory of people who actually heard Stuart sing in those Hamburg clubs. Klaus says it doesn't sound like him. Bill Harry's memory has failed him. Pete Best says it doesn't sound like him. That leaves Astrid, Paul, Jurgen Vollmer, Horst Fascher, possibly Tony Sheridan, and maybe Ringo heard Stuart when he sat in the clubs, when Rory's band wasn't playing, and listened to The Beatles. A remote possibility is Cynthia Powell, John's then girlfriend, later ex-wife, who visited John in Hamburg when Stu was still in the band and may have heard his rendition of the Elvis song onstage with The Beatles, though she was not a musician. 50 years is a long time to remember a singing voice you may have only heard once briefly. Is it for sure Pauline Sutcliffe never heard Stuart sing in Hamburg? Did he ever sing the song back in Liverpool at The Cavern, or Jacaranda Club, or somewhere else she could have heard him? Really looking forward to hearing Astrid and Paul's take on this mystery. AND the singer who dubbed Stuart's voice onto the "Love Me Tender" track in the film, who would know if that is himself on an alternate take. A part of me really hopes I am wrong and it is indeed Stuart. If so, then one might have to conclude Stuart was at one time, the BEST singer in the band, at least as good as Paul & John, and raises the question on why others in the band (namely Paul) put pressure on John to kick him out of the band because of his so-called poor bass playing..... Of course, Stu did eventually want out of the band on his own to be with Astrid and resume his art studies in Hamburg. But could The Beatles have let go of one of their best singers (and with his James Dean image; arguably the best looking member) of the band? To finally have a recording of Stuart authenticated, and such a good quality recording at that, would be the biggest musical revelation of Beatles history since "Leave My Kitten Alone" and "In Spite Of All The Danger" finally came out on bootlegs in the 80's and on the Anthology CD's in the 90's.
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Post by John S. Damm on Oct 31, 2011 9:23:47 GMT -5
That is neat that they responded Steve! Bill Harry is hedging his bets! He sounds doubtful but say parts of it does sound like Stu. Good politician's answer! ;D I like Klaus' firm and succinct response and frankly his opinion I would trust more than anyone's on Earth other than Paul and Astrid.
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Post by scousette on Oct 31, 2011 10:31:00 GMT -5
I would trust Klaus' opinion more than Bill Harry's because Klaus actually spent a lot of time in Hamburg with the Beatles and knew Stuart very well, and heard him perform more that Bill did. I agree that we need Astrid and Paul to confirm whether this is Stuart or not.
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Nov 1, 2011 7:45:58 GMT -5
OldFred, I agree with you that Birth Of The Beatles is very well made and deserves a better fate than what it got. It blew me away years later when I saw it. It was the first of its kind and people got too hung up in the late 1970's on how the actors looked and talked. It was filmed on location too I think. It was not as artsy as Backbeat but so what. I thought BIRTH OF THE BEATLES sucked in the '70s, and I still do, whenever I watch scenes from it. Most of the reason is because they just get a lot of things wrong, and took a lot of liberties. And I didn't know that Paul sang LONG TALL SALLY at the Decca audition. It's also bizarre seeing George singing DON'T BOTHER ME in Hamburg, a song which he most surely hadn't completed at that point.
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Post by John S. Damm on Nov 1, 2011 12:40:03 GMT -5
OldFred, I agree with you that Birth Of The Beatles is very well made and deserves a better fate than what it got. It blew me away years later when I saw it. It was the first of its kind and people got too hung up in the late 1970's on how the actors looked and talked. It was filmed on location too I think. It was not as artsy as Backbeat but so what. I thought BIRTH OF THE BEATLES sucked in the '70s, and I still do, whenever I watch scenes from it. Most of the reason is because they just get a lot of things wrong, and took a lot of liberties. And I didn't know that Paul sang LONG TALL SALLY at the Decca audition. It's also bizarre seeing George singing DON'T BOTHER ME in Hamburg, a song which he most surely hadn't completed at that point. There definitely were inaccuracies as you've noted Joe but I just remember it being more enjoyable to me years later. I liked the spirit of it, if you will. I love Nowhere Boy but there were some liberties taken with the facts there too. Heck, I even liked Two Of Us and that had to be mostly fictional. ;D I didn't like the John and Yoko made for tv movie of about 1985 or so and I didn't like the Linda McCartney movie either.
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Post by Steve Marinucci on Nov 1, 2011 13:38:21 GMT -5
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Post by vectisfabber on Nov 1, 2011 18:50:58 GMT -5
I wouldn't exactly call it "information." It's more an analysis by someone who is prepared to take every question mark as evidence that it is Stuart Sutcliffe singing, while ignoring every point which suggests that it isn't.
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lowbasso
A Hard Day's Knight
Posts: 2,776
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Post by lowbasso on Nov 2, 2011 20:51:49 GMT -5
The two quotes below are from Steve's most recent article on this subject; "We must then take into account the identity of the singer. If it isn’t from a film in which Stuart Sutcliffe is being portrayed, then it brings us back to the person who is best placed to identify the singer: Pauline Sutcliffe. Stuart’s sister is convinced that it is her brother, and we can find no evidence so far to suggest that it is not." -- David Bedford "Both Astrid and Klaus have listened to it long ago and both have already stated that they don't think it is Stu. Astrid is not willing to listen to it yet again." --Frank D. Badenius Is Pauline Sutcliffe best placed to identify Stuart's singing voice? Did she ever hear Stuart sing live? Wouldn't Astrid and Klaus (not to mention Pete Best, and Paul McCartney) be the people best placed? IMPORTANT: This is the first time I have seen it said that Astrid has indeed listened to the song and does not think it's Stu. She would know more than Pauline (or anybody) if Stuart had actually recorded the song with a band in Hamburg. They were living together after all!! CAVEAT; It is curious that Astrid is not willing to listen to it again. Why? Does the voice remind her of Stuart? Is the voice very similar in timbre to Stuart's? Or is it just that the song itself reminds her of the times Stuart sang it with The Beatles in the clubs? So WHO IS THE SINGER who actually recorded the track for "Birth Of The Beatles"? Is he available to be interviewed and played the alleged "Stuart" recording to see if he indeed made it? Where is the scientific evidence that can prove one way or the other if the BOTB track and the "Stuart" recording are by the same human voice? This can be cleared up fairly easily. And should be....
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Post by Steve Marinucci on Nov 2, 2011 21:25:03 GMT -5
The two quotes below are from Steve's most recent article on this subject; "We must then take into account the identity of the singer. If it isn’t from a film in which Stuart Sutcliffe is being portrayed, then it brings us back to the person who is best placed to identify the singer: Pauline Sutcliffe. Stuart’s sister is convinced that it is her brother, and we can find no evidence so far to suggest that it is not." -- David Bedford "Both Astrid and Klaus have listened to it long ago and both have already stated that they don't think it is Stu. Astrid is not willing to listen to it yet again." --Frank D. Badenius Is Pauline Sutcliffe best placed to identify Stuart's singing voice? Did she ever hear Stuart sing live? Wouldn't Astrid and Klaus (not to mention Pete Best, and Paul McCartney) be the people best placed? IMPORTANT: This is the first time I have seen it said that Astrid has indeed listened to the song and does not think it's Stu. She would know more than Pauline (or anybody) if Stuart had actually recorded the song with a band in Hamburg. They were living together after all!! CAVEAT; It is curious that Astrid is not willing to listen to it again. Why? Does the voice remind her of Stuart? Is the voice very similar in timbre to Stuart's? Or is it just that the song itself reminds her of the times Stuart sang it with The Beatles in the clubs? So WHO IS THE SINGER who actually recorded the track for "Birth Of The Beatles"? Is he available to be interviewed and played the alleged "Stuart" recording to see if he indeed made it? Where is the scientific evidence that can prove one way or the other if the BOTB track and the "Stuart" recording are by the same human voice? This can be cleared up fairly easily. And should be.... LB: I don't know who Frank D. Badenius is, so his comments on Astrid are at least on hold. There is a lot of comment going around on the song on the 'net. I'm not saying all of it is wrong, but a lot is unattributed. People are working to get comments from others. We'll see where that goes.
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Post by beatleroadie on Nov 3, 2011 0:06:28 GMT -5
Speaking of Nowhere Boy, why was Stuart not even in the movie at all? He was arguably John's best friend during the latter period the film covers (leading up to the first Hamburg trip) not Paul....
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Post by OldFred on Nov 3, 2011 4:50:27 GMT -5
Speaking of Nowhere Boy, why was Stuart not even in the movie at all? He was arguably John's best friend during the latter period the film covers (leading up to the first Hamburg trip) not Paul.... I haven't seen the film yet, but I believe it covers John's early years when he was still a young teenage and before he went to Art college before he met Stu, and it focuses on his relationship with his mother Julia and Aunt Mimi and covers his first meeting with Paul.
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Post by vectisfabber on Nov 3, 2011 5:46:32 GMT -5
Fred is right. The movie doesn't even get John out of school, certainly it stops before he gets to art college, which is where he met Stu.
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Post by Steve Marinucci on Nov 3, 2011 9:26:15 GMT -5
I'll be posting more on this today. Stay tuned.
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lowbasso
A Hard Day's Knight
Posts: 2,776
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Post by lowbasso on Nov 3, 2011 13:38:51 GMT -5
Speaking of Nowhere Boy, why was Stuart not even in the movie at all? He was arguably John's best friend during the latter period the film covers (leading up to the first Hamburg trip) not Paul.... I haven't seen the film yet, but I believe it covers John's early years when he was still a young teenage and before he went to Art college before he met Stu, and it focuses on his relationship with his mother Julia and Aunt Mimi and covers his first meeting with Paul. The film ends with John's Aunt Mimi signing his passport/visa forms so he can go to Hamburg for the first trip. So, yes, Stuart was in the "picture" at that time, but the film, as Old Fred says, focused on John's relationship with Mimi, Julia, and to a lesser extent with Paul. Even the girls "servicing" John during his days in Liverpool in the film do not include Cynthia as his girlfriend (thankfully, since in the film it appears all John was interested in was "quickies" with his female companions where-ever and whenever he desired). Kinda like what he did to Yoko on Election Night in 1972 when Nixon was re-elected, if you saw the PBS American Experience Episode on John released last year. But the film really zeros in on his Aunt Mimi and his mother Julia, which gives us a view into why John had such a chip on his shoulder that he carried till the day he died and was always something his bandmates had to deal with while the band existed. Of course Stuart's death in the spring of 1962 (long after the period of this particular film) contributed even more to that "chip".
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Post by Steve Marinucci on Nov 3, 2011 14:51:08 GMT -5
I haven't seen the film yet, but I believe it covers John's early years when he was still a young teenage and before he went to Art college before he met Stu, and it focuses on his relationship with his mother Julia and Aunt Mimi and covers his first meeting with Paul. The film ends with John's Aunt Mimi signing his passport/visa forms so he can go to Hamburg for the first trip. So, yes, Stuart was in the "picture" at that time, but the film, as Old Fred says, focused on John's relationship with Mimi, Julia, and to a lesser extent with Paul. Even the girls "servicing" John during his days in Liverpool in the film do not include Cynthia as his girlfriend (thankfully, since in the film it appears all John was interested in was "quickies" with his female companions where-ever and whenever he desired). Kinda like what he did to Yoko on Election Night in 1972 when Nixon was re-elected, if you saw the PBS American Experience Episode on John released last year. But the film really zeros in on his Aunt Mimi and his mother Julia, which gives us a view into why John had such a chip on his shoulder that he carried till the day he died and was always something his bandmates had to deal with while the band existed. Of course Stuart's death in the spring of 1962 (long after the period of this particular film) contributed even more to that "chip". It should be noted that the Lennon family has been critical of the way they were portrayed in the film. For what it's worth, Yoko has endorsed it and allowed an alternate version of "Mother" in the soundtrack. I think it was an OK movie, but a story nonetheless.
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Post by Steve Marinucci on Nov 3, 2011 16:05:25 GMT -5
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Post by scousette on Nov 3, 2011 17:10:37 GMT -5
Steve, your reports on this recording are really great. There seems to be a real reluctance by all those who would know Stu's singing voice from back then that this is indeed Stuart. That "bluesy" note that Tony Sheridan and others comment on in the line "All my dreams fulfill"-- i just had another listen and they're right--it is a very unusual take on that line. I'm not so sure Stuart would have come up with that.
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lowbasso
A Hard Day's Knight
Posts: 2,776
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Post by lowbasso on Nov 3, 2011 17:12:50 GMT -5
Nice little tribute video to Stuart on Youtube with The Beatles "Let It Be" as a soundtrack.
Yes, Steve is doing great reports on this subject. Now we have Tony Sheridan's opinion. Keep them coming Steve.
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Post by Steve Marinucci on Nov 3, 2011 17:57:19 GMT -5
Thanks, LB and scousette for the comments. Let me say that I'm trying to be impartial as I can about this. But everyone I've talked to wants to believe it, but it's tough, especially given what I've been reporting. There is a second part to the post I just put up and more beyond that. The story is not over.
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Post by Steve Marinucci on Nov 4, 2011 14:01:09 GMT -5
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Post by scousette on Nov 4, 2011 15:02:01 GMT -5
The thot plickens! Great info, Steve.
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lowbasso
A Hard Day's Knight
Posts: 2,776
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Post by lowbasso on Nov 4, 2011 17:05:15 GMT -5
Steve, Can you find Ed Lineberry from the band Rain (or any other members of the band) and get a statement from him on the soundtrack recording? I am betting there were multiple takes for "Love Me Tender" done for the movie soundtrack. I am still feeling the supposed Stuart recording is an alternate take done by Lineberry.
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Post by Steve Marinucci on Nov 4, 2011 17:25:29 GMT -5
Steve, Can you find Ed Lineberry from the band Rain (or any other members of the band) and get a statement from him on the soundtrack recording? I am betting there were multiple takes for "Love Me Tender" done for the movie soundtrack. I am still feeling the supposed Stuart recording is an alternate take done by Lineberry. I quoted Lineberry in that story from his FB page. I'd tried to contact another member of the band that I had interviewed previously. I will send a note to Lineberry, though I don't think the recordings are related.
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Post by joshferrell on Nov 4, 2011 17:54:01 GMT -5
I posted this on an Elvis forum just to see what they think since it IS an Elvis song and this smiley best describes what most the people who've responded to it thinks about it lol.. so maybe it would be a good thing if it wasn't really him singing and yes the board is usually positive towards the beatles so it's not an anti-beatles thing..it's just that people are simply not liking this recording and the way he sings it..
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lowbasso
A Hard Day's Knight
Posts: 2,776
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Post by lowbasso on Nov 4, 2011 18:02:08 GMT -5
Steve, Can you find Ed Lineberry from the band Rain (or any other members of the band) and get a statement from him on the soundtrack recording? I am betting there were multiple takes for "Love Me Tender" done for the movie soundtrack. I am still feeling the supposed Stuart recording is an alternate take done by Lineberry. I quoted Lineberry in that story from his FB page. I'd tried to contact another member of the band that I had interviewed previously. I will send a note to Lineberry, though I don't think the recordings are related. Sorry Steve, I misread your article. I was just so excited we finally knew who sang Stu's song in the film! I clicked on the Rain Facebook page and saw Mr. Lineberry's comment, which implies he didn't do the supposed Stuart track. But like you said he doesn't directly say he never made any alternate takes. I posted a comment asking directly if he is certain this new Stuart recording is not his voice with an added new intrumental track underneath. I will be really amazed if that is not his voice on the alleged Stuart track. I guess even if he says for sure that is not him, it still doesn't prove it's authentic. None of the Hamburg people who have commented have yet said it sounds like Stuart. Only his sister. Who wasn't in Hamburg.
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Post by Steve Marinucci on Nov 4, 2011 21:03:20 GMT -5
I quoted Lineberry in that story from his FB page. I'd tried to contact another member of the band that I had interviewed previously. I will send a note to Lineberry, though I don't think the recordings are related. Sorry Steve, I misread your article. I was just so excited we finally knew who sang Stu's song in the film! I clicked on the Rain Facebook page and saw Mr. Lineberry's comment, which implies he didn't do the supposed Stuart track. But like you said he doesn't directly say he never made any alternate takes. I posted a comment asking directly if he is certain this new Stuart recording is not his voice with an added new intrumental track underneath. I will be really amazed if that is not his voice on the alleged Stuart track. I guess even if he says for sure that is not him, it still doesn't prove it's authentic. None of the Hamburg people who have commented have yet said it sounds like Stuart. Only his sister. Who wasn't in Hamburg. Well, if he says it's not him, it still leaves the door open that it might be Sutcliffe. I'm not dismissing the story until someone actually proves it's not. And so far, no one has proved it either way yet, really, though the bar is leaning toward it not being him because of Klaus and Tony's Sheridan's comments. I'm still trying to reach people and we'll see where that goes.
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lowbasso
A Hard Day's Knight
Posts: 2,776
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Post by lowbasso on Nov 5, 2011 16:24:01 GMT -5
I posted this on an Elvis forum just to see what they think since it IS an Elvis song and this smiley best describes what most the people who've responded to it thinks about it lol.. so maybe it would be a good thing if it wasn't really him singing and yes the board is usually positive towards the beatles so it's not an anti-beatles thing..it's just that people are simply not liking this recording and the way he sings it.. Well, even Elvis "said" he liked The Beatles, but we all know how he really felt about them.... Can we really trust Elvis fans when they say they are not anti-beatles????Hmmmmm..... ;D
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Post by Steve Marinucci on Nov 5, 2011 19:17:08 GMT -5
I posted this on an Elvis forum just to see what they think since it IS an Elvis song and this smiley best describes what most the people who've responded to it thinks about it lol.. so maybe it would be a good thing if it wasn't really him singing and yes the board is usually positive towards the beatles so it's not an anti-beatles thing..it's just that people are simply not liking this recording and the way he sings it.. Well, even Elvis "said" he liked The Beatles, but we all know how he really felt about them.... Can we really trust Elvis fans when they say they are not anti-beatles????Hmmmmm..... ;D Sutcliffe wasn't a star in the Beatles either vocally or instrumentally, if the past stories are right. This vocal doesn't sound as awful as I figured it might, though.
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Post by debjorgo on Nov 5, 2011 21:02:15 GMT -5
I posted this on an Elvis forum just to see what they think since it IS an Elvis song and this smiley best describes what most the people who've responded to it thinks about it lol.. so maybe it would be a good thing if it wasn't really him singing and yes the board is usually positive towards the beatles so it's not an anti-beatles thing..it's just that people are simply not liking this recording and the way he sings it.. Well, even Elvis "said" he liked The Beatles, but we all know how he really felt about them.... Can we really trust Elvis fans when they say they are not anti-beatles????Hmmmmm..... ;D Elvis liked the Beatles enough to record three or four of their songs. He was pretty high when he tried to narc on them with Nixon and I think he just wanted the badge.
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Post by mikev on Nov 6, 2011 11:09:15 GMT -5
Well, even Elvis "said" he liked The Beatles, but we all know how he really felt about them.... Can we really trust Elvis fans when they say they are not anti-beatles????Hmmmmm..... ;D Sutcliffe wasn't a star in the Beatles either vocally or instrumentally, if the past stories are right. This vocal doesn't sound as awful as I figured it might, though. While unpolished it is a very good vocal in comparison to the other Beatles, all of which could sing but none at the time were at Elvis's level with vibrato, clarity and resonance.
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