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Post by John S. Damm on Mar 29, 2012 15:55:37 GMT -5
About 2 1/2 months ago I studied carefully the video excerpts from Rockshow featured in the triple dvd set The McCartney Years.
I was shocked to see numerous instances where Denny Laine and Linda are nowhere near a microphones yet are heard rendering studio perfect back-up vocals!
Paul McCartney was a warrior and overdubbed or not, he was giving it his all. Joe English was giving it his all at drums. Jimmy Mac was engaged on his guitar solos but otherwise kind of drifted about.
Denny and Linda looked clueless a lot of the time. Denny Laine is a professional musician but he looked like he just didn't give a shit! It has been suggested that he was very stoned throughout that tour. Linda has an excuse as a strictly amateur.
Peter Ames Carlin's book on Paul is said to have an interview with Joe English who claimed that the overdubbing work for WOA went on forever. English apparently said that Paul's singing and playing was mostly fine for the live album but that it was Denny and Linda's live backing vocals that were a nightmare. I need to find that. Joe English would know!
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Post by ursamajor on Mar 29, 2012 16:47:11 GMT -5
On Rockshow when Denny sings Spirits of Ancient Egypt, he does look abit stoned, especially right at the beginning.
IMO, Jimmy McCullogh and Joe English were the backbone of Wings. Without those two they wouldn't have sounded as good.
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Post by ursamajor on Mar 29, 2012 16:55:14 GMT -5
Sometimes a live album is so good that it deserves to be included in these lists, IMO, WOA is one such album, it's great from start to finish and most of the versions surpass the originals. I did not include it in my list but if I was to include it would go straight to #2 right up BOTR's butt !!! Well said... ;D thanks champ !!
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kc
Beatle Freak
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Post by kc on Mar 29, 2012 16:58:25 GMT -5
I can understand that. After re-visiting McCartney II upon its recent re-release, as well as a few of Paul's very early albums under the influence of your Postulate, my opinion of Pipes Of Peace is in free fall. Apologies to posters who have shown in their lists that they feel otherwise. Pipes of Peace was leftover tracks from the Tug Of War sessions. So I can see why it wasn't that strong. Paul would have had a good album if he would have waited and combined the Pipes of Peace release with Broadstreet: Side 1 1. Pipes Of Peace 2. Say Say Say 3. Keep Under Cover 4. No Values 5. Through Our Love Side 2 1. No More Lonely Nights 2. The Other Me 2. Average Person 3. So Bad 4. Not Such A Bad Boy 5. No More Lonely Nights (playout) I don't dispute any of your post. I once compiled my own version of a combined 1983 and 1984 album: Pipes Of Peace No Values The Other Me Say Say Say So Bad Not Such A Bad Boy The Man Wings Of A Nightingale Lindiana Through Our Love We All Stand Together No More Lonely Nights
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Post by ReturnToPepperland on Mar 30, 2012 12:18:11 GMT -5
Pipes of Peace was leftover tracks from the Tug Of War sessions. So I can see why it wasn't that strong. Paul would have had a good album if he would have waited and combined the Pipes of Peace release with Broadstreet: Side 1 1. Pipes Of Peace 2. Say Say Say 3. Keep Under Cover 4. No Values 5. Through Our Love Side 2 1. No More Lonely Nights 2. The Other Me 2. Average Person 3. So Bad 4. Not Such A Bad Boy 5. No More Lonely Nights (playout) I don't dispute any of your post. I once compiled my own version of a combined 1983 and 1984 album: Pipes Of Peace No Values The Other Me Say Say Say So Bad Not Such A Bad Boy The Man Wings Of A Nightingale Lindiana Through Our Love We All Stand Together No More Lonely Nights You have some good ideas about additonal songs there. I debated including The Man instead of Keep Under Cover. That makes a very good album. I like We All Stand Together especially with an edit or two.
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Post by ReturnToPepperland on Mar 30, 2012 12:25:05 GMT -5
Sorry but you are wrong. I have seen Paul produce those bass tones up close. I hadn't even finished reading mikev's post, but instantly knew RTP would call any type of criticism of Paul "wrong"! ;D mikev used the words "bass tones". I should have realized he meant that you can't get some of those sounds on stage--only in a studio.
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Post by ReturnToPepperland on Mar 30, 2012 12:27:40 GMT -5
Sorry but you are wrong. I have seen Paul produce those bass tones up close. In fact on that tour in 1976 I had a good seat at Olympia Statium in Detroit. And I could see Paul playing and could hear the bass coming through the speakers. There was no trickery. on Silly Love Songs I had my eyes on him because I knew the bass was quite good on that record. He played every note and you could hear it in the mix. In the film for Kampuchea you can see Paul playing the runs on the bass for Coming Up. Its unmistakable. Bob Seger, famed Detroit legend, saw the Beatles in Detroit in the same stadium 10 years earlier in 1966. He said he had seats very close to the stage and was amazed at Paul's bass playing and singing at the same time especially on songs like Nowhere Man. Now if you are saying he may have overdubbed to correct a couple mistakes here and there, I could buy that. But your assertion of cheating is wrong. If the camera is on the audience on all these overdubs, how do you know those sections were overdubbed? If you are just guessing you need to have more evidence than that. There was studio perfection in the runs on WOA. Of course Paul can play and sing at the same time, and note for note- I was not disputing that. I've seen him play live and I play bass. The hardest are Day Tripper, Birthday and Penny Lane. He's the best in the business to both play and sing. But the tone and timing in WOA is too pristine and the bass notes are struck with the precision of a studio performance. The problem with studio enhancement of a live performance is that once you start- it is hard to stop. I've listened closely to Wing's Last Flight- the unedited, but soundboard quality cut of Wing's late 70s debacle (debacle meaning cut short- it is actually very good live stuff IMO). Paul's hitting proper notes, but some notes get slightly chopped because you are singing and looking at the audience and moving around. WOA was even and steady. I am only guessing on the audience clips as cover ups, but even the live stuff was obviously culled from different performances. And if everything was on individual tracks- that could be another form of editing but a little more honest if the tracks were stiill live. Sort of like they did on Edit Be Naked. And, Paul's own web page discography admits there was studio overdubs. I do believe that all of the later live releases including the 912 live performances of Hey Jude are for the most part real and minimal editing- here and there type of tweaking. I misunderstood what you were saying. I can see where he might want to enhance the sound in the studio if there were some badly recorded rough spots.
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Post by mikev on Mar 30, 2012 13:08:48 GMT -5
There was studio perfection in the runs on WOA. Of course Paul can play and sing at the same time, and note for note- I was not disputing that. I've seen him play live and I play bass. The hardest are Day Tripper, Birthday and Penny Lane. He's the best in the business to both play and sing. But the tone and timing in WOA is too pristine and the bass notes are struck with the precision of a studio performance. The problem with studio enhancement of a live performance is that once you start- it is hard to stop. I've listened closely to Wing's Last Flight- the unedited, but soundboard quality cut of Wing's late 70s debacle (debacle meaning cut short- it is actually very good live stuff IMO). Paul's hitting proper notes, but some notes get slightly chopped because you are singing and looking at the audience and moving around. WOA was even and steady. I am only guessing on the audience clips as cover ups, but even the live stuff was obviously culled from different performances. And if everything was on individual tracks- that could be another form of editing but a little more honest if the tracks were stiill live. Sort of like they did on Edit Be Naked. And, Paul's own web page discography admits there was studio overdubs. I do believe that all of the later live releases including the 912 live performances of Hey Jude are for the most part real and minimal editing- here and there type of tweaking. I misunderstood what you were saying. I can see where he might want to enhance the sound in the studio if there were some badly recorded rough spots. Lennon remastered and pretty much hijacked Frank Zappa's live at the Fillmore (per Zappa himself). He wrote over Franks liner notes/artwork, overdubbed new bass and pretty much wiped out all of Flo and Eddies's back up vocals.
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Post by coachbk on Mar 31, 2012 20:20:09 GMT -5
Here's a summary of how we voted. Totals are points (using a 10, 9, 8....1 system) followed by first place votes and then the total number of people who put it in the top 10:
1. BAND ON THE RUN 111 (8) 12 2. RAM 82 (2) 12 3. VENUS AND MARS 73 (0) 12 4. TUG OF WAR 71 (1) 12 5. FLAMING PIE 50 (0) 9 6. MCCARTNEY 49 (1) 7 7. CHAOS AND CREATION 46 (1) 7 8. ELECTRIC ARGUMENTS 44 (0) 7 9. FLOWERS IN THE DIRT 34 (0) 7 10. BACK TO THE EGG 32 (0) 6 11. WINGS OVER AMERICA 30 (0) 6 12. MEMORY ALMOST FULL 24 (0) 7 12. LONDON TOWN 24 (0) 7 14. PRESS TO PLAY 22 (0) 4 15. RED ROSE SPEEDWAY 19 (1) 3 16. RUN DEVIL RUN 18 (0) 4 17. WILD LIFE 17 (0) 4 18. UNPLUGGED 10 (0) 2 19. OFF THE GROUND 9 (0) 2 19. TRIPPING THE LIVE FANTASTIC 9 (0) 2 21. CHOBBA CCCP 8 (0) 1 22. PIPES OF PEACE 6 (0) 3 22. BROADSTREET 6 (0) 1 22. SPEED OF SOUND 6 (0) 1 25. KISSES ON THE BOTTOM 2 (0) 1 26. MCCARTNEY II 1 (0) 1
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Post by debjorgo on Mar 31, 2012 20:59:44 GMT -5
Here's a summary of how we voted. Totals are points (using a 10, 9, 8....1 system) followed by first place votes and then the total number of people who put it in the top 10: 1. BAND ON THE RUN 111 (8) 12 2. RAM 82 (2) 12 3. VENUS AND MARS 73 (0) 12 4. TUG OF WAR 71 (1) 12 5. FLAMING PIE 50 (0) 9 6. MCCARTNEY 49 (1) 7 7. CHAOS AND CREATION 46 (1) 7 8. ELECTRIC ARGUMENTS 44 (0) 7 9. FLOWERS IN THE DIRT 34 (0) 7 10. BACK TO THE EGG 32 (0) 6 11. WINGS OVER AMERICA 30 (0) 6 12. MEMORY ALMOST FULL 24 (0) 7 12. LONDON TOWN 24 (0) 7 14. PRESS TO PLAY 22 (0) 4 15. RED ROSE SPEEDWAY 19 (1) 3 16. RUN DEVIL RUN 18 (0) 4 17. WILD LIFE 17 (0) 4 18. UNPLUGGED 10 (0) 2 19. OFF THE GROUND 9 (0) 2 19. TRIPPING THE LIVE FANTASTIC 9 (0) 2 21. CHOBBA CCCP 8 (0) 1 22. PIPES OF PEACE 6 (0) 3 22. BROADSTREET 6 (0) 1 22. SPEED OF SOUND 6 (0) 1 25. KISSES ON THE BOTTOM 2 (0) 1 26. MCCARTNEY II 1 (0) 1 That's not a bad list to turn a young fan on to, wanting to know what to listen to. Maybe we should do this with all the solo Beatles. It may be easier to do the solo Beatles separately, then using the top 5s of each, put them in order. I'm not sure this is the list we would have come up with if we had framed it as a recommendation, (Venus and Mars at 3 seems a little weak) but it's not bad.
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Post by coachbk on Mar 31, 2012 23:01:47 GMT -5
The interesting thing with Venus And Mars is that only three people had them as high as 3rd (they got two 2nd place votes and one 3rd) but it on all but one person's top 10 (there were 13 voters). I agree that I would consider it as Paul's 3rd best album (heck most of the songs on it are done much better on WINGS OVER AMERICA). MCARTNEY had sort of the opposite thing making it as high as it did as it received a 1st place, two 2nds and a 3rd place vote, but was only in the top ten 3 other times. Personally I went with the albums that were really solid all the way through over those that had a few excellent songs, but also some fairly weak ones. MCCARTNEY, MCCARTNEY II, WILD LIFE and ELECTRIC ARGUMENTS would fall into this category.
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Apr 1, 2012 6:08:19 GMT -5
The interesting thing with Venus And Mars is that only three people had them as high as 3rd (they got two 2nd place votes and one 3rd) but it on all but one person's top 10 (there were 13 voters). I agree that I would consider it as Paul's 3rd best album (heck most of the songs on it are done much better on WINGS OVER AMERICA). I have decided to go back, re-analyze, and re-do my list, this time with attention to putting my picks in "best to least" order: 1. BAND ON THE RUN 2. RAM 3. VENUS AND MARS 4. FLAMING PIE 5. TUG OF WAR 6. CHAOS AND CREATION IN THE BACKYARD 7. BACK TO THE EGG 8. OFF THE GROUND 9. MEMORY ALMOST FULL 10. McCARTNEY II
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Apr 1, 2012 6:12:11 GMT -5
Here's a summary of how we voted. Please go back and count my new list, because originally I didn't put them in "order", I had only gone at random. (Thanks)...
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2012 6:24:24 GMT -5
The interesting thing with Venus And Mars is that only three people had them as high as 3rd (they got two 2nd place votes and one 3rd) but it on all but one person's top 10 (there were 13 voters). I agree that I would consider it as Paul's 3rd best album (heck most of the songs on it are done much better on WINGS OVER AMERICA). I have decided to go back, re-analyze, and re-do my list, this time with attention to putting my picks in "best to least" order: 1. BAND ON THE RUN 2. RAM 3. VENUS AND MARS 4. FLAMING PIE 5. TUG OF WAR 6. CHAOS AND CREATION IN THE BACKYARD 7. BACK TO THE EGG 8. OFF THE GROUND 9. MEMORY ALMOST FULL 10. ?? Ahhhh.... 10. has been left blank for a live album....
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Post by John S. Damm on Apr 1, 2012 14:13:13 GMT -5
The interesting thing with Venus And Mars is that only three people had them as high as 3rd (they got two 2nd place votes and one 3rd) but it on all but one person's top 10 (there were 13 voters)......... Who was the poster who didn't have V&M in his/her Top 10!? ;D
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Post by anyoneanyhow on Apr 1, 2012 15:31:14 GMT -5
London Town fell in the middle of the pack, but almost beat out Plastic Ono Band in their head to head. I guess some of us feel all of Paul's albums are better than any of John's Anyway, The overall results of this poll make sense to me, and show some good diversity. It's also nice to see we appreciate Paul's music from each decade, Paul himself would probably be glad to see that. I'm suprised to see McCartney II on the bottom of the list, it was really talked up here only a few months ago. It's certainly on the bottom of my list, I thought the board members liked it better.
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nine
Very Clean
Posts: 840
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Post by nine on Apr 2, 2012 4:40:15 GMT -5
1. McCartney II 2. Back To The Egg 3. Wild Life 4. Off The Ground 5. Red Rose Speedway 6. Ram 7. McCartney 8. London Town 9. Memory Almost Full 10. Flowers In The Dirt
I am not yet familiar with Electric Arguments
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Apr 2, 2012 5:55:39 GMT -5
I'm suprised to see McCartney II on the bottom of the list, it was really talked up here only a few months ago. It's certainly on the bottom of my list, I thought the board members liked it better. I certainly do, but if I'm compiling a list of Paul's "all-time best albums", I wouldn't necessarily place it in the top. I was having trouble coming up with a choice for #10, so maybe I'd put McCARTNEY II there. Or maybe WILD LIFE. Or maybe LONDON TOWN. But it's certainly NOT a cheat live album. ;D
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2012 7:10:51 GMT -5
Who was the poster who didn't have V&M in his/her Top 10!? ;D I went back through the thread.... i think it was a short,rotund, bald, bespectacled geek who resides in a way out place with nude Patti Boyd wallpaper.....that's his bag....
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Post by John S. Damm on Apr 2, 2012 7:57:53 GMT -5
Who was the poster who didn't have V&M in his/her Top 10!? ;D I went back through the thread.... i think it was a short,rotund, bald, bespectacled geek who resides in a way out place with nude Patti Boyd wallpaper.....that's his bag.... Hey, I am not all of those things! And Patti will be with me......someday!
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Post by mikev on Apr 2, 2012 12:53:52 GMT -5
I know these were tallied already- my original post never went through- so I'll try again, 1st being favorite: 1. London Town 2. Ram 3. Flaming Pie 4. Band on the Run (I acknowledge this is probably the artistic best- but I tire of Jet and BOR from overplay) 5. Venus & Mars 6. Red Rose 7. Tug of War 8. McCartney 9. Memory Almost Full 10. Chaos and Creation
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Post by debjorgo on Apr 21, 2013 11:52:32 GMT -5
Here's a summary of how we voted. Totals are points (using a 10, 9, 8....1 system) followed by first place votes and then the total number of people who put it in the top 10: 1. BAND ON THE RUN 111 (8) 12 2. RAM 82 (2) 12 3. VENUS AND MARS 73 (0) 12 4. TUG OF WAR 71 (1) 12 5. FLAMING PIE 50 (0) 9 6. MCCARTNEY 49 (1) 7 7. CHAOS AND CREATION 46 (1) 7 8. ELECTRIC ARGUMENTS 44 (0) 7 9. FLOWERS IN THE DIRT 34 (0) 7 10. BACK TO THE EGG 32 (0) 6 11. WINGS OVER AMERICA 30 (0) 6 12. MEMORY ALMOST FULL 24 (0) 7 12. LONDON TOWN 24 (0) 7 14. PRESS TO PLAY 22 (0) 4 15. RED ROSE SPEEDWAY 19 (1) 3 16. RUN DEVIL RUN 18 (0) 4 17. WILD LIFE 17 (0) 4 18. UNPLUGGED 10 (0) 2 19. OFF THE GROUND 9 (0) 2 19. TRIPPING THE LIVE FANTASTIC 9 (0) 2 21. CHOBBA CCCP 8 (0) 1 22. PIPES OF PEACE 6 (0) 3 22. BROADSTREET 6 (0) 1 22. SPEED OF SOUND 6 (0) 1 25. KISSES ON THE BOTTOM 2 (0) 1 26. MCCARTNEY II 1 (0) 1 With everyone's selections on this thread, McCartney averages out to be the 6th favorite Paul McCartney album. I'd say most people here like it quite a bit.
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Post by coachbk on Apr 21, 2013 19:35:08 GMT -5
[quote author=" debjorgo" [/quote]With everyone's selections on this thread, McCartney averages out to be the 6th favorite Paul McCartney album. I'd say most people here like it quite a bit. [/quote] I had it #9 (#10 if I count WINGS OVER AMERICA) Here's my breakdown of the songs from strongest to weakest with a rating from 0-5: Maybe I'm Amazed: a great song. One of Paul's best. Sounds 100% authentic (5) Every Night: a charming catchy tune again with a sincere lyrical sentiment (4.5) Junk: another nice acoustic number; very Beatlesque (3.5) Oo You: a nice improvised rocker (3.5) Momma Miss America: a rousing instrumental (3) Hot As Sun: another catchy instrumental, I don't mind the bits of "Glasses" and "Suicide" (3) Man We Was Lonely: Linda's little backing vocal a nice touch (3) Teddy Boy: gets dissed by some, but I like it OK (3) The Lovely Linda: a nice little bit of a song (2.5) That Would Be Something: a nice bit of a song stretched on too long trying to make a full song (2.5) Singalong Junk: pleasant enough, but totally unnecessary (2) Kreen Akrore: OK, so Paul can play drums. At least it is at the end and can be easily skipped (1) Valentine' Day: an instrumental that goes nowhere (1) So I stick by my assertion that it is about 3/4 of an excellent album. Replace the last 3 songs above with something like "Another Day" and "Oh Woman Oh Why" and I'll call it an excellent album. A decent start for Paul, but he would do much better with RAM. Then back to 1/2 an album with WILD LIFE, better craft with RED ROSE SPEEDWAY (which I rate just a bit below MCCARTNEY) and then the masterpiece BAND ON THE RUN!
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Post by Panther on Apr 23, 2013 8:18:13 GMT -5
I confess I'm not familiar with most of Paul's catalogue. I know certain albums and most of the singles.
Based on what I know, I'd rank: 1. McCartney 2. Unplugged 3. Ram 4. Wild Life 5. Memory Almost Full 6. Band On The Run 7. Pipes of Peace 8. Flowers In The Dirt
Those last two or three I would give only about 3 stars out of 5, but anyway those are basically all the Paul albums I know.
I did listen to Chaos and Creation once, and some people whose opinions I respect say it's very, very good, but my once-over listen did not impress me. I'll give it another go some time.
EDITED TO ADD: Oh, and I heard Tug of War once. Some good melodies (and some dull ones), but overall far too sugary and sappy for me. 'Wanderlust' is brilliant, however.
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Post by acebackwords on Apr 23, 2013 14:26:31 GMT -5
Lennon remastered and pretty much hijacked Frank Zappa's live at the Fillmore (per Zappa himself). He wrote over Franks liner notes/artwork, overdubbed new bass and pretty much wiped out all of Flo and Eddies's back up vocals.
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Post by coachbk on Apr 23, 2013 19:34:14 GMT -5
I confess I'm not familiar with most of Paul's catalogue. I know certain albums and most of the singles. Based on what I know, I'd rank: 1. McCartney2. Unplugged3. Ram4. Wild Life5. Memory Almost Full6. Band On The Run7. Pipes of Peace8. Flowers In The DirtThose last two or three I would give only about 3 stars out of 5, but anyway those are basically all the Paul albums I know. I did listen to Chaos and Creation once, and some people whose opinions I respect say it's very, very good, but my once-over listen did not impress me. I'll give it another go some time. EDITED TO ADD: Oh, and I heard Tug of War once. Some good melodies (and some dull ones), but overall far too sugary and sappy for me. 'Wanderlust' is brilliant, however. Since you don't mention it, I think you should check out FLAMING PIE. There are a lot of excellent songs in a variety of styles.
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Post by theman on Apr 26, 2013 13:30:08 GMT -5
I'm a sucker for lists, so here goes mine.... 1. RAM 2. BAND ON THE RUN 3. VENUS AND MARS 4. TUG OF WAR 5. CHAOS AND CREATION 6. BACK TO THE EGG 7. FLOWERS IN THE DIRT 8. MEMORY ALMOST FULL 9. RED ROSE SPEEDWAY 10. CHOBBA CCCP Most of my selections would not appear to change the overall running order of the totals tallied up so far. I spent spring break with my family in London in early April (we crossed Abbey Road in the snow...man, it was cold). Anyway, in getting ready for the trip, I spent a lot of time listening to Red Rose Speedway. I can't explain it, but that album sounds very "English" to me. So, I spent most of my time in London humming "Single Pigeon". Unfortunately, as it was not really "walking through the park weather", I didn't get to Regent's Park Canal. However, my last day there was pretty nice and much warmer, so I did stroll around Hyde Park, Green Park and St. James's Park. That might explain why Red Rose Speedway appears in my Top Ten Paul albums for the first time. Then again, maybe not:) Read more: abbeyrd.proboards.com/thread/3296/pauls-top-10-albums?page=3#ixzz2RauzIgqD
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Post by Panther on Apr 26, 2013 22:11:13 GMT -5
I maintain my soft-spot for Pipes of Peace, and not only because it was the 2nd LP I ever had (back when I was about 7 or 8). Slick, 80s-production and the usual lyrical banalities aside, the MELODIES (and several of the arrangements) are FANTASTIC. You can't find a tune on this LP that isn't stellar.
If you took Pipes of Peace, stripped the production gloss to make it harder and with some reverb, deleted the synths, and forced Paul at gunpoint to re-write a few of the lyrically stupider moments, it could be a masterpiece.
Such is Paul's career -- things that are the hardest-to-master, pot of gold for most artists (melodies and harmonics) are super-easy to Paul, who dreams of #1 hits in his sleep. Where Paul fails is in his ability to deliver authentic-sounding music and consistently inspired lyrics. It's also strange that a man so staggeringly successful still felt the need, in his 40s, to make so many commercial concessions.
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Post by debjorgo on Aug 13, 2013 19:57:55 GMT -5
I keep having to go back and find this thread to know where I rate a given album. It's easier than figuring it out again but a new comment will make it easier to find.
I have Wings Wild Life at number 5. The group averages it a number 17.
Paul does what punk did years later. He throws off all the pretentiousness and over amplified artiness that rock was putting so much stock in at the time. It went back to three guitars and a drum kit. I can't wait for it to be reissued.
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Post by debjorgo on Oct 22, 2013 20:53:19 GMT -5
Ooouch! It bit me! I was looking for a different name for this thread.
Where would we put New in this list?
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