Match 13, Solo LP Tourney, Rnd 1, RAM 1 v. SINYC 1

[joeyself]

RAM, Side 1 vs. SOME TIME IN NEW YORK CITY, Side 1

RAM, Side 1

1. "Too Many People" 4:10
2. "3 Legs" 2:44
3. "Ram On" 2:26
4. "Dear Boy" 2:12
5. "Uncle Albert/Admiral Halsey" 4:49
6. "Smile Away" 3:51

SOME TIME IN NEW YORK CITY, Side 1

1. "Woman Is the Nigger of the World" (John Lennon/Yoko Ono) – 5:15
2. "Sisters, O Sisters" (Yoko Ono) – 3:46
3. "Attica State" (John Lennon/Yoko Ono) – 2:54
4. "Born in a Prison" (Yoko Ono) – 4:03
5. "New York City" (John Lennon) – 4:30

Paul vs. John this time, albums one year (and several light years) apart.

JcS

[vectisfabber]

I like Ram. I have already voiced my opinion on SINYC. Easy.

[joeyself]

Oct 26, 2010 17:14:21 GMT -5 vectisfabber said:

I like Ram. I have already voiced my opinion on SINYC. Easy.

But you probably don't have the same visceral reaction to Side one that you do to the second side of SINYC, right?

JcS

[vectisfabber]

No, I just dislike side 1

I do quite like Sisters O Sisters, oddly! But the material overall doesn't speak to me. I have more in common with Uncle Albert than I do with New York City.

[mikev]

This is a blow out to me. New York City is a great Lennon rocker except too topical. Woman is... is a great melody, but a little self-righteous ("we talked to people at Ebony so it was alright"...)

Attica State....well Yoko...yeah free the prisoners...pure irony.

Ram was bashed by the critics but is a great piece of pop-rock and I still believe is Paul's personal Pet Sounds. Uncle Albert is a love hate song but its no. 1 charting in the USA says it all. It is a personal favorite of mine as is Too Many People. I see this album side possibly reaching the final four.

[coachbk]

RAM all the way! This is the easiest decision yet for me. "New York City" is a great rocker, but nothing else does anything for me on this side of SINYC. As for RAM. "Too Many People" is a good opening track that rocks and has some good lyrical snatches. "3 Legs" is my least favorite song on the LP. I can't get past the annoying vocals and stupid lyrics. "Ram On" is a nice acoustic piece. "Dear Boy" is very Beatlesque and is just the right length. "Uncle Albert/Admiral Halsey" to me is the song that separates the true McCartney fan from the casual fan. I love it for all the different musical stylings all within the same song. I also think there is more to the lyrics ("live a little be a gypsy get around...") than many critics give credit for. "Smile Away" is dumb, but it just rocks so well that I can't help but like it. I actually think side 2 of RAM is the stronger overall side, but side 1 is still plenty strong enough to trounce SINYC.

[acebackwords]

RAM all the way. Uncle Albert is one of my favorite of all the Beatles solo song. And that "Woman is the N-word of the World" song, thats really noxious, isn't it? "We make them paint their face and dance." What you mean "we", sexist pig boy. I don't think I need any righteous lectures from Lennon about how to relate to women, considering how he treated many of them.

[John S. Damm]

RAM, Side 1

Not close for me.
1. "Too Many People": Very strong opening. I can't think of any other song where Paul sounds likes this lyrically or even musically. This is one reason the Counter-Culture Press slammed this album: Paul was critical of the freeloading, entitlement culture which started in the 1960's hippy generation. Paul goes for the feel of this song in the awful "Big Boys Bickering" where Paul blatantly drops the f-bomb in a desperate effort to be relevant. He's very relevant here and Jann Wenner hated it because it flew in the face of RS's " the gov't owes us" attitude.
2. "3 Legs": I love this funky ditty of Macca doing some hillbilly blues.
3. "Ram On": Sublime. Deceptively clever. I think this is a subtle classic overlooked by all but us kind of people.
4. "Dear Boy": One of my top 3 favorite Paul solo songs. Biting and fast-paced. I think and hope it was aimed at John because if aimed at Linda's hapless first husband, then Paul is a bully.
5. "Uncle Albert/Admiral Halsey": This is pretty good. I don't like the silly voices but I love the beginning and the stirring "Hands across the water" bit.
6. "Smile Away": Again, funky white-trash rock from Paul that works.

I despise the two prison songs here but I do love Yoko's ode to fellatio with, "wood becomes a flute when it's loved..."

1. "Woman Is the Nigger of the World": I love John's vocal, don't love his and Yoko's choice of word. Nor does the African American community.
2. "Sisters, O Sisters": Rocks in a cool retro way.
3. "Attica State": Terrible.
4. "Born in a Prison": Terrible except the wood becomes a flute when its loved.
5. "New York City": best song on the album; kind of wordy with dated lyrics but I am sure if alive, John would tweak the lyrics to make them more contemporary.

[Deleted]

SOME TIME IN NEW YORK CITY, Side 1

I've played this album quite a lot lately and i'm starting to warm to it.

I've never had Ram on high rotation...it doesn't really grab at me...

[ursamajor]

SINYC Side 1 for me

John was still a genius at the point this album came out and he rocked hard with balls of steel although the album was a failure but I thought the concept was great. Abit too in your face for the average Joe and the topics were too Irish and Women's Lib centric although I'm sure John was glad to stick it to the English establishment. Yoko proved herself on this album with Sisters and We're All Water and showed that she could have a creative partnership with John. They should have thought this out a little bit better and it may have been the crown jewel in John's limited solo cannon.

RAM was fluff back then and is still fluff today although it has the catchy Uncle Albert. If it was under rated back then , then it is over rated today.

[nine]

Ram for me.

I am really surprised to find people here who rate STINYC. I don't like anything on it.

I've a ukulele that I was given for Christmas and Ram On is a great song to play along with.

[Joe Karlosi]

Oct 26, 2010 19:12:40 GMT -5 acebackwords said:

And that "Woman is the N-word of the World" song, thats really noxious, isn't it? "We make them paint their face and dance." What you mean "we", sexist pig boy. I don't think I need any righteous lectures from Lennon about how to relate to women, considering how he treated many of them.

And this was John also including himself as well with his "we". John himself knew he'd been part of the problem. From here out he grew to appreciate women and take it all back, culminating in the classic "WOMAN" off DF. Kudos to John for having the courage to write and release this.

[Joe Karlosi]

I voted for Paul over John again - RAM, SIDE 1.

RAM is one of Paul's best albums for me, maybe even his #1. I do enjoy Side 1 of John's STINYC as well, but not nearly as much as I love all of RAM (and especially the first side).

UNCLE ALBERT is pure magic, I just adore it and feel great any time I hear it, anywhere. Love Linda's vocal contibutions all through RAM.

[nine]

Oct 27, 2010 6:18:59 GMT -5 Joe Karlosi said:

Oct 26, 2010 19:12:40 GMT -5 acebackwords said:

And that "Woman is the N-word of the World" song, thats really noxious, isn't it? "We make them paint their face and dance." What you mean "we", sexist pig boy. I don't think I need any righteous lectures from Lennon about how to relate to women, considering how he treated many of them.

And this was John also including himself as well with his "we". John himself knew he'd been part of the problem. From here out he grew to appreciate women and take it all back, culminating in the classic "WOMAN" off DF. Kudos to John for having the courage to write and release this.

Women don't paint their faces just for men. They compete amongst themselves. This is something that John missed.

[Joe Karlosi]

Oct 26, 2010 22:31:56 GMT -5 John S. Damm said:

4. "Dear Boy": One of my top 3 favorite Paul solo songs. Biting and fast-paced. I think and hope it was aimed at John because if aimed at Linda's hapless first husband, then Paul is a bully.

I'd rather it have been aimed at Linda's first husband, because it's so much more of a shot. Why would Paul say to John: "And even when you fall in love, it won't be half as good as this"? John was already quite in love, it wasn't a matter of "when" John was to fall.

The lyrics sound more appropriate toward an ex-husband. Then again, maybe these lyrics were about nobody real (RTP may have to refresh our memories about this one).

[coachbk]

[quote author
I am really surprised to find people here who rate STINYC. I don't like anything on it.
[/quote]

Yeah, I thought this one might be a shutout for RAM.

As I posted earlier I do like "New York City".

[JCV]

RAM, Side 1

Rock on, Paulie!

JCV

[ReturnToPepperland]

Oct 27, 2010 9:19:05 GMT -5 Joe Karlosi said:

Oct 26, 2010 22:31:56 GMT -5 John S. Damm said:

4. "Dear Boy": One of my top 3 favorite Paul solo songs. Biting and fast-paced. I think and hope it was aimed at John because if aimed at Linda's hapless first husband, then Paul is a bully.

I'd rather it have been aimed at Linda's first husband, because it's so much more of a shot. Why would Paul say to John: "And even when you fall in love, it won't be half as good as this"? John was already quite in love, it wasn't a matter of "when" John was to fall.

The lyrics sound more appropriate toward an ex-husband. Then again, maybe these lyrics were about nobody real (RTP may have to refresh our memories about this one).

They don't sound appropriate toward an ex-husband if you analyze the lyrics and not take them on face value. When Paul says "even when you fall in love it won't be half as good as this" he is saying to John your new partner won't be even half as good as we were together. Now Paul could be referring to Yoko or he may mean a musical partner. It is likely a reference to a new musical collaboration John may find in the future.

Here is an analysis of each line:

I guess you never knew,
Dear boy, what you had found

(This refers to the time when John and Paul met. John "found" Paul and asked him to join the group)

I guess you never knew,
Dear boy, that she was just the cutest thing around
I guess you never knew what you had found,
Dear boy.

(Note the usual switch to a different sex to cover up the meaning. The word "cutest" is a code word here. You know what the reference is--the "cute" Beatle--and you apparently never really appreciated me)

I guess you never saw,
Dear boy, that love was there,
And maybe when you look too hard,
Dear boy, you never do become aware.
I guess you never did become aware, Dear Boy.

(Paul is saying you never knew how much I love(d) you. "Maybe when you look too hard you never do become aware" may refer to John's tendency to be hyper critical. When you are like that you don't even appreciate the good things you have)

When I stepped in

(when Paul stepped into John's world--when they met)

my heart was down and out

(Paul had just lost his mother and was very down about it)

But a love came through and brought me 'round,
got me up and about.

(Rock and roll and songwriting had recharged Paul after his mother's death. It went even further when he met John. It confirmed that he knew he wanted to do for the rest of his life-"got me up and about" and found someone who thought like him. The "love" is both a love of rock and roll and John)

I hope you never know, dear boy,
How much you missed.
(I hope it never hits you how much you threw away--how much more we could have accomplished together)

And even when you fall in love, dear boy,
It won't be half as good as this.

(When you find a musical collaborator to replace me it will never be anywhere near as good as what we had)

I hope you never know how much you missed,
Dear boy, how much you missed


This is clearly not about Melvin See. First of all, why would Paul devote an entire song to someone he hardly knew and had no feelings for either way. Linda left Melvin, not the other way around. Melvin didn't have anything bad to say about Linda--the mother of his daughter Heather. He was not bitter toward her. He never disrespected Linda. He was crushed when she left. He had suffered from depression for years.

Also note the last note sustained by Paul at the very end Paul sings "Fa a a art." Why would he call Melvin a fart? If Melvin had mistreated Linda, perhaps, but that wasn't the case. That was meant for John because Paul thought he had been stabbed in the back over Klein and the partnership agreement.

[Joe Karlosi]

Oct 27, 2010 12:21:51 GMT -5 ReturnToPepperland said:

They don't sound appropriate toward an ex-husband if you analyze the lyrics and not take them on face value. When Paul says.........

RTP -- did Paul McCartney provide this precise breakdown as you wrote it, or was this your own theory? Because it's really rather presumptuous of you, if Paul didn't break this thing down, sentence by sentence...

I realize you said it was just "an anlysis", but really, you're going pretty far....

Also note the last note sustained by Paul at the very end Paul sings "Fa a a art." Why would he call Melvin a fart?

Oh, come on. I don't think that's what he said at the end of the song.

[Joseph McCabe]

Sometime in NYC Side 1
Woman is the Nigger of the World: great song, masterfully sung by rock's greatest vocalist. Excellent start.

But the rest of the side doesn't impress me as much as this opener. I like most of the political sentiments, though some are overdone on the album as a whole. Overstating for emphasis is a common ploy but I do get weary of the overstating. But Yoko -- she seems to be out of her element here, just going through the musical and vocal motions.

And I feel relatively cool as regards the song New York City; to me it is far too overpraised. It feels like a formulaic Lennon piece to my ears.

Ram Side 1
Ram is a funny album; there are some shockers, some real "fluff" (as ursamajor said), and some very nice meaty songs. As I've said before, I very much like about two-thirds of Ram, and dislike only one song on side 1. That song is (of course) the fatuous, forced, fluffy, foolish Uncle Albert/Admiral Halsey. The song (heh, or songs) are not meaty enough to carry the weight of Paul and Linda's vocal and musical tricks.

The rest of side 1 is pretty good. Lyrically interesting and challenging, muscially varied, both vocal and instruments. A strong side.

Ram side 1 gets my vote here.

McCabe

[Joseph McCabe]

By the way, Paul made a genuine MONO mix of Ram, where tracks completed totally (or very nearly so) so that the album would be more "radio friendly".

Some of the tracks are noticeably different, and a few are slightly longer.

It has been said that the stereo Ram is a pop album, but the mono Ram is a rock album. This is silly, of course (both mixes can't change Ram from being anything but a "pop" album), but it is making the point that the mono certainly has a rockier feel, "punchier" if you like.

If you would like to download the mono Ram, send me a pm for a link. If you are a Ram fan, it is essential listening.

McCabe

[joeyself]

Oh, fer cryin' out loud, "Dear Boy" is about Linda's ex-husband. Or at least that's what the composer said:

"I think John might have taken Dear Boy as an attack on him."

Dear Boy wasn’t getting at John, Dear Boy was actually a song to Linda’s ex-husband: “I guess you never knew what you had missed.” I never told him that, which was lucky, because he’s since committed suicide. And it was a comment about him, cos I did think, “Gosh, you know, she’s so amazing, I suppose you didn’t get it.”

www.pauldunoyer.com/pages/journalism/journalism_item.asp?journalismID=252

I await RTP's source for that theory that it was about anything other than what Paul said it was.

JcS

[scousette]

RAM, Side 1

[ursamajor]

Does anyone know the circumstances of Linda's break-up with her ex husband ? If he left her then I can understand why Paul would write a song like that but if Linda left him then it's actually very harsh to put someone down like that, especially since he would be the devastated party, it's a very hard thing to get over and can take a long time.

I agree with JSD, I hope it really is about John.

[vectisfabber]

The quote provided by Joey states categorically that it's not. Maybe we can sometimes overthink things.

[Joe Karlosi]

Oct 27, 2010 15:32:24 GMT -5 joeyself said:

Oh, fer cryin' out loud, "Dear Boy" is about Linda's ex-husband. Or at least that's what the composer said:

"I think John might have taken Dear Boy as an attack on him."

Dear Boy wasn’t getting at John, Dear Boy was actually a song to Linda’s ex-husband: “I guess you never knew what you had missed.” I never told him that, which was lucky, because he’s since committed suicide. And it was a comment about him, cos I did think, “Gosh, you know, she’s so amazing, I suppose you didn’t get it.”

www.pauldunoyer.com/pages/journalism/journalism_item.asp?journalismID=252

I await RTP's source for that theory that it was about anything other than what Paul said it was.

JcS

That's good enough for me!

[Joe Karlosi]

Oct 27, 2010 15:18:03 GMT -5 Joseph McCabe said:

I very much like about two-thirds of Ram, and dislike only one song on side 1. That song is (of course) the fatuous, forced, fluffy, foolish Uncle Albert/Admiral Halsey.

"Of course"? I've never heard that one before in bashing UNCLE ALBERT!

[stavros]

Ram wins hands across the water..............

SINYC is to me Lennon jumping on various bandwagons as he did once about peace and bagism. The album is the pits of his commercial career.

Now Ram on the other hand has the excellent "Too Many People" which may or may not have been directed at John and the equally inspiring "Dear Boy" which may or may not be about Linda's first husband. But then Paul talks in riddles with his songs anyway. "Jet" was about a puppy ("Oh yeah really Paul?"") and "Two of Us" is about him and Linda (and yet seemingly John seems to know what this song is about on LIB).

I don't care for "3 Legs" too much and "Smile Away" used to be a song I liked for a while but is ultimately pure filler.

"Uncle Albert" is pure genius in my opinion. Good enough to be a Beatles track. I think John may have agreed. Ram is far from perfect, but SINYC is an album I wish John had never committed to vinyl.

[ReturnToPepperland]

Oct 27, 2010 16:11:33 GMT -5 ursamajor said:

Does anyone know the circumstances of Linda's break-up with her ex husband ? If he left her then I can understand why Paul would write a song like that but if Linda left him then it's actually very harsh to put someone down like that, especially since he would be the devastated party, it's a very hard thing to get over and can take a long time.

I agree with JSD, I hope it really is about John.

A direct quote about "Dear Boy" from Paul contains his disclosure or acknowledgment that John understood the song to be about him. I'm not surprised Paul is vague about this because he was the one who disguised its meaning in the first place. He didn't like the idea of a song being identified as having his former partner as the subject. Also, he likes to keep his songs open to interpretation. A mistake you can make at your own risk is to take Paul's lyrics literally. He seldom writes that way.

Peter Ames Carlin, author of the book Paul McCartney--A Life, has the same take on it. He writes: The tuneful chorale "Dear Boy" addresses Paul's clueless ex-partner who "never knew what (he) had found" in a song in which he clearly second guesses the wisdom of their breakup. Its a theme Paul takes up in another song "Dear Friend". Significantly, we see the repeated use of the word "dear". In "Dear Friend" we find Paul again questioning John's judgement in the matter: "Are you a fool or is it true?"

What was on Paul's mind in late 1970 when this song was written? He had been deciding whether to sue John (and George and Ringo) and end the group once and for all. He wasn't deciding to sue Melvin See. I'm sure that was the last person on his mind.

Joseph Melvin See Jr. was a geology student at University of Arizona when he met Linda Eastman. Linda was barely out of her teens when they met. Linda studied for a Fine Art major at the University of Arizona. She and Melvin married on June 18 1962 (Paul's 20th birthday ironically). Their daughter Heather Louise was born on December 31, 1962. They were divorced in June 1965. Linda later commented that See was a "nice man, a geologist, an Ernest Hemingway type."

She went on to confess that she had made a mistake by marrying him using the excuse that she was only 20 years old and three months pregnant at the time. Linda admits it was she who decided to move on from the marriage: "I grew up. I discovered a new freedom I had never realized before."

So the question is this: if Linda expresses a positive description of her former husband, it was she who left HIM and Paul never even met the guy, why would Paul write a scathing critique of the man? It makes no sense.

If you look a little beneath the surface, it is clearly about John. Tell my WHY after two years of marriage and knowing Linda for nearly four years would Paul take the time to write a song about this harmless character whom Paul had never met. It makes no sense especially when you know the circumstances of the breakup of Linda's first marriage.

Also if you listen carefully, he does sing FA AA ART at the very end. I think I am the only one who has written about that last point. I can hear the word clearly.

[ReturnToPepperland]

Oct 27, 2010 17:30:38 GMT -5 stavros said:

Ram wins hands across the water..............

SINYC is to me Lennon jumping on various bandwagons as he did once about peace and bagism. The album is the pits of his commercial career.

Now Ram on the other hand has the excellent "Too Many People" which may or may not have been directed at John and the equally inspiring "Dear Boy" which may or may not be about Linda's first husband. But then Paul talks in riddles with his songs anyway. "Jet" was about a puppy ("Oh yeah really Paul?"") and "Two of Us" is about him and Linda (and yet seemingly John seems to know what this song is about on LIB).

I don't care for "3 Legs" too much and "Smile Away" used to be a song I liked for a while but is ultimately pure filler.

"Uncle Albert" is pure genius in my opinion. Good enough to be a Beatles track. I think John may have agreed. Ram is far from perfect, but SINYC is an album I wish John had never committed to vinyl.

For all you (Uncle Albert) haters, John did express approval for that track.

He even did a version of it while recording the Imagine album. I have heard it.