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Post by Joe Karlosi on Apr 26, 2012 11:14:20 GMT -5
I realize that this is not the easiest subject to revisit, but I was looking through events in "The Beatles Bible" and came across this. It suddenly dawned on me that I never really pursued learning much more about it. Even though I knew the basics, it was way more intense than reported. And the article said that even the Harrisons initially decided to de-emphasize the seriousness of this horrible night at the time it happened. I remember thinking "oh God, that's terrible -- I'm so glad George is okay and only had a puncture to his lung which was attended to..."... however, it is much more involved: www.beatlesbible.com/1999/12/30/george-olivia-harrison-stabbed-friar-park-michael-abram/You know, George was so lucky to make it alive. Reading the whole report above is truly shocking. I don't know what it is about it, but I suppose the Harrrisons did succeed at the time to downplay it quite a bit. There could have easily been the chance that we would have lost George to a murder in December 1999, same as we lost John in December 1980. My mind cannot imagine that -- two former Beatles killed.. oh, God. Why haven't I really studied the impact of this until now? It really does seem like an event that's almost like a "footnote" in Beatles History, the way it has been reported... As we know, George lived only another two years after that awful attack before succumbing to cancer. It has been said that George was doing better with the illness and some of his family and friends truly feel that it was the intense experience of that knife attack which weakened him and drained him of strength, thus allowing the cancer to return. There was a jerk I used to know who hated The Beatles. I recall a day or two after this event, he said to me: "That was the best news I've heard in 19 years!" ... Idiot...
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Post by John S. Damm on Apr 26, 2012 11:51:50 GMT -5
Joe, that BeatlesBible site is amazing. On a more joyous note, I enjoyed reading about the Rooftop Performance there as noted in a different Thread. Yeah, George's stabbing was worse than we were lead to believe but that is part of why I admire George so much. He was as stoic and brave as a Rottweiler! That is by far the most intense portion of the recent LITMW film as Olivia describes that attack. Olivia also tells that George really fought hard to protect the family as did Olivia who has a rather appropriate anecdote of her father instructing her as agirl how to play American baseball. That came in handy that night. Horrible event though. Like many, I believe that attack hastened George's life. How can one body take all of that trauma and stress? I admire George and Olivia's dignity maintained throughout and as related by a Monty Python member in the recent film, George had one of the funniest lines ever to a new employee as he was being wheeled out of Friar Park on a stretcher so everyone go see the film! George even kept his sense of humor. Great man.
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Post by mikev on Apr 26, 2012 13:09:07 GMT -5
Any stabbing attack is serious- but my God- the fact that George survived this is just amazing.
I had no idea it was this intense and went on as long as it did.
In a way- this is much more terrifying than what happened to Lennon. Without sounding like an idiot, of course the outcome with Lennon was fatal, but he only attacked John. This other maniac would have taken them both out and anyone else within ear shot.
It also mystifies me why the good Lord or whatever it is allowed George to survive only to die within two years even suffering more.
Maybe the shock would have just been too much for all of us.
Maybe that is why.
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Post by John S. Damm on Apr 26, 2012 13:20:16 GMT -5
And another horrible thing was that Friar Park was a blissful sanctuary to George from the world. It is one of the neatest Estates in the world. That attack destroyed the sanctity of Friar Park for George I have read. It in effect took George's home away from him emotionally. Every single day he would walk that stairway and relive that attack. In late 2001 Steve had a special News Section dedicated to George's Attack and one story was that George and Olivia planned on selling Friar Park because of the attack but obviously never did. Other things may have gotten in the way. That would be true for any one of us if attacked in our respective homes. I couldn't stay there afterwards. I don't know how Yoko does it with the Dakota, going by that spot every day. I respect her for not being chased out by a bad person's actions but it would be hard for me.
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andyb
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Post by andyb on Apr 26, 2012 13:22:42 GMT -5
I agree that this attack was terrible and probably hastened George's early passing.
I can't believe that anyone would say that Joe unless they were trying to be funny.
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Apr 26, 2012 13:32:29 GMT -5
I can't believe that anyone would say that Joe unless they were trying to be funny. He had a wicked sense of humor like that, this guy. He was an Elvis fan (so am I), but he liked to put the Beatles down. He was "a friend of a friend", so I didn't see him much and now I no longer see him at all. One time we were at a movie memorabilia store and while I was looking through photographs I heard his voice over my shoulder, saying: "This is something all Beatle fans need" (I looked and saw he was holding a lobbycard that screamed: "HELP!"). One time a bunch of friends were at a barbecue. This idiot arrives and whispers to me: "Sorry I'm late, but I was 'sitting on a cornflake waiting for the van to come' ". (He said it with scorn, like he thought it was a stupid lyric). I responded to him: "I took the Frankfurt Special, myself". (FRANKFURT SPECIAL is the name of a train, from Elvis' cheesy movie GI BLUES). Another time a few of us were talking about LET IT BE still not available on DVD, and this guy angrily said: "Let It Be?? Oh, LET IT REST!!!" This guy never could resist a dig at The Beatles, but he went too far with his george insult.
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Post by John S. Damm on Apr 26, 2012 13:42:24 GMT -5
I agree that this attack was terrible and probably hastened George's early passing. I can't believe that anyone would say that Joe unless they were trying to be funny. Andy, people can be jerks! I had teachers in high school who knew I was a Beatles Freak tell me they were glad John was killed because he "was a druggie" or they were sorry it wasn't Yoko. One teacher thought that he was being helpful by saying, "Glad it wasn't Paul, he's the only good one." I was glad it wasn't Paul too but I didn't want any of the guys killed and not John just as he was emerging again as a major Pop Star and had this cute little five year old at home and had Julian in the tough teen years. My classmates at my small Indiana High School were very cool to me and cut me slack even though they weren't Beatles fans. They may not have understood why I was hurting over the death of a man I didn't know but they just knew that I was hurting and I can't recall one hurtful word spoken to me by a fellow kid. I have never forgotten that although my old classmates would laugh it off now or have forgotten it if I raised that today. My best friends, some pretty tough farmer boys were absolutely golden and let me vent over beers(yeah I was only 18 when 21 was the age of consent) and never complained even though they themselves did not have any emotions over the murder other than it was HUGE news for two weeks. When George was attacked, my adult friends let slip some poor jokes that I didn't care for but what could I do? At least George was alive. When George passed away a couple years later some of my law partners were insensitive, reminding me more of my teachers than my peers. They kind of thought my sadness was silly or a weakness. I didn't say a word at work but they knew I was down but it didn't mean shit to them, even some who had liked the Beatles. Maybe that is a macho business thing. I've read of people here who were teased even worse over the deaths of John and George then I was. People can be jerks even to one's face.
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Apr 26, 2012 13:43:49 GMT -5
That would be true for any one of us if attacked in our respective homes. I couldn't stay there afterwards. I don't know how Yoko does it with the Dakota, going by that spot every day. I respect her for not being chased out by a bad person's actions but it would be hard for me. I've often thought the same thing about Yoko. When I met her outside the Dakota twice in 1994, that uncomfortable thought went through my head.
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Apr 26, 2012 13:48:55 GMT -5
It also mystifies me why the good Lord or whatever it is allowed George to survive only to die within two years even suffering more. Maybe the shock would have just been too much for all of us. Maybe that is why. For us believers there are all sorts of things we can never understand logically on earth, and probably are not meant to understand in this life.
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andyb
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Post by andyb on Apr 26, 2012 13:52:45 GMT -5
Stupid.
A joke is a joke, and I've got a silly dark sense of humour, so I laugh at everything. But I choose my audience. It's the intent behind the words that matters to me, so that guy Joe mentioned seemed like a real idiot. I don't see the point in saying something unless it's funny and that didn't appear to be funny.
As Johnny Rotten said about the use of the word bollocks on their album "That's an old english word and they tried to ban us using it. Don't tell me how I'm using the word, ask me how I'm using the word!".
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Post by sayne on Apr 26, 2012 23:27:39 GMT -5
Several of you are much better people than I am, I guess. If anyone I knew who was aware of how much the Beatles meant to me made a crass joke about John or George dying AT THE TIME that it happened, they would not be my friend any longer. Today, I can take John or George joke, like a can take a Lincoln or Space Shuttle joke, but at the time that a tragic event happens, it's classless and mean, and I couldn't keep a person like that close to me.
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Post by Steve Marinucci on Apr 26, 2012 23:58:01 GMT -5
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Apr 27, 2012 5:26:04 GMT -5
Several of you are much better people than I am, I guess. If anyone I knew who was aware of how much the Beatles meant to me made a crass joke about John or George dying AT THE TIME that it happened, they would not be my friend any longer. Today, I can take John or George joke, like a can take a Lincoln or Space Shuttle joke, but at the time that a tragic event happens, it's classless and mean, and I couldn't keep a person like that close to me. The guy I was talking about was never close to me and he was never a friend. He was just a friend of a friend who sometimes I got stuck being around in a group. And actually, I don't think I ever wound up being subjected to him again after his crass George comment. Of course that doesn't stop morons at my job for making nasty comments hailing John Lennon's killer every December 8th.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2012 6:52:33 GMT -5
That attack, as well as the one on John are reminders that life can throw up all sorts of consequences, including an unfortunate encounter with a whack job....
One can only hope that prick has a long drawn out painful death...
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Post by ursamajor on Apr 27, 2012 7:28:08 GMT -5
Who would want to kill a Beatle and why ? Yet two people attempted it and one succeeded (with a little help from some government friends ....)
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Post by John S. Damm on Apr 27, 2012 8:02:20 GMT -5
Several of you are much better people than I am, I guess. If anyone I knew who was aware of how much the Beatles meant to me made a crass joke about John or George dying AT THE TIME that it happened, they would not be my friend any longer. Today, I can take John or George joke, like a can take a Lincoln or Space Shuttle joke, but at the time that a tragic event happens, it's classless and mean, and I couldn't keep a person like that close to me. The thought of cursing out those teachers crossed my mind but graduating from high school did too! I argued back to some extent but the teachers were ignorant on Beatles history even though they were of that generation and I wasn't. It was the P.E. and Shop teachers who were also my football coaches who were the worse so they were just being macho jerks. As I wrote, my friends and classmates were sweethearts on John's murder, a rare experience with teenagers. We hear of rampant bullying and horrible teen on teen verbal or internet or texting abuse but not with my peers in a small, rural high school. They left me alone or listened, both appreciated at the time. The George thing with my partners wasn't cruel, they just had no time to think about it and wondered why I did. Because I am human I guess!
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Post by mikev on Apr 27, 2012 8:19:05 GMT -5
Who would want to kill a Beatle and why ? Yet two people attempted it and one succeeded (with a little help from some government friends ....) I would believe Nixon, but not Reagan (unless Mike Love fearing a Beatle reunion with John's comeback had Nancy put him up to it ). Hell he wasn't even president yet...and NO WAY was Jimmy Carter behind it.
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Post by John S. Damm on Apr 27, 2012 8:25:48 GMT -5
Boy Steve, that brings back memories, albeit sad ones but we all hung on to your Abbeyrd Beatle News Site for this story. You had a similar separate News Section for George's illness, then death and that's the one I would rush out of bed in the morning to check, to see what you had added late(California time) the night before. That was a heavy time, the Fall of 2001 and obviously compounded by some other heavy events too.
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Apr 27, 2012 8:59:35 GMT -5
Who would want to kill a Beatle and why ? Yet two people attempted it and one succeeded (with a little help from some government friends ....) I would believe Nixon, but not Reagan (unless Mike Love fearing a Beatle reunion with John's comeback had Nancy put him up to it ). Hell he wasn't even president yet...and NO WAY was Jimmy Carter behind it. Agreed, Mike. Pay no attention to that "government conspiracy" bullshit. Some people love that kind of fantasy stuff.
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Post by Steve Marinucci on Apr 27, 2012 10:41:57 GMT -5
Boy Steve, that brings back memories, albeit sad ones but we all hung on to your Abbeyrd Beatle News Site for this story. You had a similar separate News Section for George's illness, then death and that's the one I would rush out of bed in the morning to check, to see what you had added late(California time) the night before. That was a heavy time, the Fall of 2001 and obviously compounded by some other heavy events too. Yeah, reading that stuff again really freaks me out in more ways than one. In those days, there weren't all the sites that post every single Beatles related story, worth it or not, and call it news. I like to think that I did (and still do) have a little selectivity from my years in newspapers. But beware of those who just post links (and use their links to cover them) and think that's all they need to do. My rant for the day. Thanks to those of you that followed me then and put up with me now.
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Post by Steve Marinucci on Apr 27, 2012 10:44:02 GMT -5
Who would want to kill a Beatle and why ? Yet two people attempted it and one succeeded (with a little help from some government friends ....) I don't think there was any conspiracy. Lennon's killer was an idiot (and I can't say that any stronger without using some four-letter words). He was far too stupid to let the government plot with him. He didn't have any help. He did the foul deed all himself.
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Post by John S. Damm on Apr 27, 2012 21:12:18 GMT -5
What happened to George's attacker? Hopefully commited in a secure facility but I bet just living off the U.K. taxpayers in his own flat with his smart phone and his big screen T.V.
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Post by ursamajor on Apr 27, 2012 22:54:15 GMT -5
Who would want to kill a Beatle and why ? Yet two people attempted it and one succeeded (with a little help from some government friends ....) I don't think there was any conspiracy. Lennon's killer was an idiot (and I can't say that any stronger without using some four-letter words). He was far too stupid to let the government plot with him. He didn't have any help. He did the foul deed all himself. I find that very hard to believe, the story just doesn't wash with me and it never will. Changing his plea from not guilty to guilty at the very last minute seems kind of fishy to me, it meant that it was a closed case and no other investigations were done. The fact the Sean also believes it was a conspiracy is telling and I'm sure Yoko believes it too.
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Post by Steve Marinucci on Apr 28, 2012 1:00:37 GMT -5
I don't think there was any conspiracy. Lennon's killer was an idiot (and I can't say that any stronger without using some four-letter words). He was far too stupid to let the government plot with him. He didn't have any help. He did the foul deed all himself. I find that very hard to believe, the story just doesn't wash with me and it never will. Changing his plea from not guilty to guilty at the very last minute seems kind of fishy to me, it meant that it was a closed case and no other investigations were done. The fact the Sean also believes it was a conspiracy is telling and I'm sure Yoko believes it too. I think you're attributing more intelligence to the guy than he deserves.
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Post by ursamajor on Apr 28, 2012 3:28:03 GMT -5
I can buy a guy breaking into someone's house and things get ugly and someone gets stabbed or shot.
I don't buy a loser from Hawaii going all the way to New York just to shoot someone for no reason. Then to be told he was insane.
Just doesn't wash no matter which way I look at it.
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andyb
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Post by andyb on Apr 28, 2012 4:39:29 GMT -5
What happened to George's attacker? Hopefully commited in a secure facility but I bet just living off the U.K. taxpayers in his own flat with his smart phone and his big screen T.V. I think he's still locked up in a secure mental unit. Once they classify you as mentally unstable or such like, they can keep you in forever. I seem to remember him being on the news in the last couple of years but not the reason why.
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Apr 28, 2012 6:17:30 GMT -5
I can buy a guy breaking into someone's house and things get ugly and someone gets stabbed or shot. I don't buy a loser from Hawaii going all the way to New York just to shoot someone for no reason. Then to be told he was insane. Just doesn't wash no matter which way I look at it. I don't think it's ever been established exactly why George's attacker broke in, but it's been speculated (and accurately I think) that the guy was mentally deranged and had a Beatles obsession. There was something about him believing that the Beatles were witches who flew around on brooms. But it's pretty much felt that this lunatic wanted to target George and made the effort to locate George's home. He wanted specifically to "kill Beatle George"... this was not some random "burglary or break-in gone wrong". Back to the Lennon murder. I don't understand how the events don't "wash" with you. He did not go and kill John "for no reason" (I mean the guy had his own warped reasoning). The killer had an obsession with Lennon and was so mentally unstable and harboring an inferiority complex that he felt he "was a big nobody who wanted to be somebody". At the same time, he also resented John at times and felt he was "a phony" (the killer's favorite book, THE CATCHER IN THE RYE, also happened to be a about a crusade against people who were once innocent kids but grew into phony adults). In his mental state he felt that he wanted to kill Lennon and thus acquire his fame and notoriety. But it should be noted that the guy also had a list of OTHER celebrities he'd thought of killing instead... but for his own warped reasoning he ultimately centered on John when he came back into the public eye, and one of the recent articles on John also infuriated him. I don't say any of these reasons are "logical", of course... but what is so hard to conceive about a mentally sick person arriving at all sorts of bizarre decisions? And then making it his mission to travel to wherever his target is and kill him? There was that other killer who murdered actress Rebecca Schaffer... he went and traveled specifically to her apartment (where else is a person going to locate their target except by traveling to their location?). If you are familiar with all the personal history of Lennon's killer, or have read Jack Jones' very informative book LET ME TAKE YOU DOWN, it's all there. It's an extensive and twisted journey through the mind and thought process of John's killer. Once you've read it, everything is explained. I'm not saying the killer's logic makes sense, but I mean we learn what drove him. The thing that really doesn't "wash" or make sense is why you would think Lennon would still be considered some kind of government threat in 1980 when all he was doing was baking bread and playing daddy. He came out with a domestic DOUBLE FANTASY album that was all about marriage and real life, not politics looking to overthrow the government or anything. And with Jimmy Carter as president??? Are you kidding?? If you want to talk about "killing John for no reason", it was the government who had no reason to kill John Lennon.
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Apr 28, 2012 6:33:37 GMT -5
I find that very hard to believe, the story just doesn't wash with me and it never will. Changing his plea from not guilty to guilty at the very last minute seems kind of fishy to me, it meant that it was a closed case and no other investigations were done. The fact the Sean also believes it was a conspiracy is telling and I'm sure Yoko believes it too. Sean was only 5 at the time. What did he know? Who cares what he thinks now? And I don't think Yoko believes it was a conspiracy. What's so "fishy" about changing the plea from not guilty? His lawyer advised him to plead not guilty by reason of insanity, but at the end the killer decided to take full responsibility for his crime. That's the main reason he killed John in the first place, to take responsibility and gain attention. Plus, he had the religious thing going on where he'd found God again and felt it was God's will. You need to find and read the Jack Jones book, and then get back to us after you've learned all the facts and heard the jerk's point of view (warped though it was) after hours and hours of interviews with the author. The only "fishy" thing here is this delusion that the government wanted to kill John Lennon for no reason.
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andyb
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Post by andyb on Apr 28, 2012 7:02:01 GMT -5
I didn't know he had a list of other celebrities to have a go at !
Somehow makes it seem even more senseless.
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Apr 28, 2012 8:10:58 GMT -5
I didn't know he had a list of other celebrities to have a go at ! Somehow makes it seem even more senseless. Oh, it's definitely senseless (except to a confused mind). But yes, he had a list. I definitely recall that Johnny Carson was on it, I think Robert Goulet too... and Jackie Kennedy, Elizabeth Taylor and George C. Scott. It ultimately came down to John because the killer felt a strong connection with him and was angered by some things Lennon said, and came to think of John as a sell-out and a fraud. Besides, John was the easiest to get to.
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