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Post by sayne on Dec 6, 2008 10:43:24 GMT -5
. . . Most rap . . . isn't music, either. Definition of "music", please.
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Post by vectisfabber on Dec 6, 2008 17:40:22 GMT -5
Melody.
If it hasn't got a melody then it isn't music. And, by "melody" I include a melody comprising a repeated single note which aquires its melodic value by virtue of the harmonic background against which it is set. Rap - by which I mean rhythmic recitation of lyrical content against a rhythmic background - has no melody, therefore it is not music. Some rap songs do have melody, therefore they are music.
Melody, of course, is only one of the things music has to have, rhythm being another.
And just because rap (per se) isn't music (in the same way that Revolution 9 isn't music, both of them missing one or more of the essential components of music) doesn't mean that I don't accept that rap is a valid form of modern urban artistic self-expression.
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Post by sayne on Dec 6, 2008 23:13:21 GMT -5
Melody. If it hasn't got a melody then it isn't music . . . Melody, of course, is only one of the things music has to have, rhythm being another . . . Thanks for the lesson. I guess that means that acting MUST have words, art MUST have colors, and dinner must have all the major food groups. Makes perfect sense to me.
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Post by jimc on Dec 7, 2008 1:59:21 GMT -5
Melody. If it hasn't got a melody then it isn't music . . . Melody, of course, is only one of the things music has to have, rhythm being another . . . Thanks for the lesson. I guess that means that acting MUST have words, art MUST have colors, and dinner must have all the major food groups. Makes perfect sense to me. ...and poetry MUST rhyme!
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Post by vectisfabber on Dec 7, 2008 4:24:53 GMT -5
I wasn't talking about acting, dinner or poetry, I was talking about music.
But I beg your pardon, according to the John Lennon definition of "If I say it's art, then it's art" then, of course, rap is music if you say it's music. I merely observe that, by reference to my inherently limited understanding of the conventions by which western music has been defined from the middle ages onwards, rap doesn't match the definition because it has no melody (neither do certain works by Bartok, Stockhausen etc.).
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Post by vectisfabber on Dec 7, 2008 4:28:47 GMT -5
For what it's worth, I'm not aware of any definition of acting which requires dialogue to be a part of it (far from it, actually), nor of dinner requiring the inclusion of all food groups (although it's a good idea nutritionally it doesn't fall within a definition, which probably relates to it being the main meal of the day, I suspect) and, while I like my poetry to rhyme, it has been established for many years that it doesn't have to.
I am, however, aware of definitions of music which require melody to be part of it.
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Post by sayne on Dec 7, 2008 10:39:08 GMT -5
. . . the conventions by which western music has been defined from the middle ages onwards Ah, that is the rub. The West always seems to think they are the arbiters of what anything is. Whether it is art, music, beauty, faith, food, etc. Sure other cultures have their "ways", but I don't think many of them are so "catholic" in their views that they exclude the validity of anything different, unless, of course, they are strict fundamentalists. In the United States, it seems that anything that is not "American" is so, um, "foreign" (defined as odd, weird, and sometimes wrong).
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Post by vectisfabber on Dec 8, 2008 4:35:55 GMT -5
You're absolutely right (as a Brit it sometimes looks to me as if the US world view often stops as soon as it hits salt water - I stress "often", not "always"! And, of course, it's not as if the Brits don't have a history of putting their own point of view before anyone else's). But please bear in mind that I took care not to diss the validity of rap as a form of artistic self-expression in its own right - I would argue strongly in favour of that proposition - just that it doesn't comply with the conventional definition of music.
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Post by sayne on Dec 8, 2008 16:37:12 GMT -5
But please bear in mind that I took care not to diss the validity of rap as a form of artistic self-expression in its own right - I would argue strongly in favour of that proposition - just that it doesn't comply with the conventional definition of music. Although I disagree with your premise, I do understand from where you are coming. It's just that it so reminded me of when I was young when I would hear old people say about the Beatles or rock in general, "That's not music, it's just noise." Even rather "learned" people would say it.
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Post by Cosmos on Dec 9, 2008 11:53:44 GMT -5
If rap had nothing to "sample", it would not exist. I understand that all art draws upon what came before, but true art rarely cabon copies it's predesessor and then adds a thin layer over the top and calls it "new", much less original. (Please don't bring up Warhol et al...I personally put them in about the same category)
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Post by jimc on Dec 10, 2008 0:19:35 GMT -5
If rap had nothing to "sample", it would not exist. I understand that all art draws upon what came before, but true art rarely cabon copies it's predesessor and then adds a thin layer over the top and calls it "new", much less original. (Please don't bring up Warhol et al...I personally put them in about the same category) This is my second post in two minutes to mention Led Zeppelin...but is there a huge difference between how Zeppelin pilfered the blues and how some artists use samples? By the way, one of my favorite artists of this sort is DJ Shadow, who strings together all sorts of found sounds from thousands of records into very haunting pieces. Entroducing is really one of the greatest albums of the last 20 years. A just to be clear, I love Led Zeppelin.
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Post by Ron Nasty on Dec 10, 2008 15:21:23 GMT -5
If rap had nothing to "sample", it would not exist. I have to assume you haven't heard a lot of rap music. There have been many prominent rap artists who have used samples sparingly, if at all. Eminem, for example, largely created his own "samples" and backing tracks. Rap began with people improvising (or "freestyling") over records played by a DJ, but it evolved into other things. When rock & roll began, everyone generally used the same I-IV-V chord structure and sounded alike, but that genre evolved as well.
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Post by John S. Damm on Dec 10, 2008 16:27:27 GMT -5
My youngest stepson was really into rap or hip hop during his middle school and high school years and much of the music I heard was brilliant and sounded original to me. I was really thrilled at some of the stuff I heard.
And then there was some rap music that he played that was vulgar, sexist, violent, etc. and that would get my parental time-honored yell of, "Turn that crap off!" The same is true with rock and roll. There is the good, the bad and the ugly in both genres.
And as to sampling, I don't mind it as long as the sampled music gets its proper credit and royalties. It can really enhance a song and I think of Kid Rock's summer smash hit that sampled "Sweet Home Alabama" and "Werewolves Of London." I thought that song was brilliant in evoking memories many of us have from lake cottage adventures back in our youth. So I like my sampling in rap and rock!
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Post by Steve Marinucci on Dec 10, 2008 16:56:30 GMT -5
If rap had nothing to "sample", it would not exist. I have to assume you haven't heard a lot of rap music. There have been many prominent rap artists who have used samples sparingly, if at all. Eminem, for example, largely created his own "samples" and backing tracks. Rap began with people improvising (or "freestyling") over records played by a DJ, but it evolved into other things. When rock & roll began, everyone generally used the same I-IV-V chord structure and sounded alike, but that genre evolved as well. OMG! The legendary Ron Nasty! ;D
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Post by winstonoboogie on Dec 10, 2008 18:51:01 GMT -5
I have to assume you haven't heard a lot of rap music. There have been many prominent rap artists who have used samples sparingly, if at all. Eminem, for example, largely created his own "samples" and backing tracks. Rap began with people improvising (or "freestyling") over records played by a DJ, but it evolved into other things. When rock & roll began, everyone generally used the same I-IV-V chord structure and sounded alike, but that genre evolved as well. OMG! The legendary Ron Nasty! ;D Yes! Welcome back, Ron!
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Post by Ron Nasty on Dec 11, 2008 4:00:31 GMT -5
My youngest stepson was really into rap or hip hop during his middle school and high school years and much of the music I heard was brilliant and sounded original to me. I was really thrilled at some of the stuff I heard. And then there was some rap music that he played that was vulgar, sexist, violent, etc. and that would get my parental time-honored yell of, "Turn that crap off!" The same is true with rock and roll. There is the good, the bad and the ugly in both genres. And as to sampling, I don't mind it as long as the sampled music gets its proper credit and royalties. It can really enhance a song and I think of Kid Rock's summer smash hit that sampled "Sweet Home Alabama" and "Werewolves Of London." I thought that song was brilliant in evoking memories many of us have from lake cottage adventures back in our youth. So I like my sampling in rap and rock! I can't add anything to this wonderful post with which I mostly agree...except I really can't stand Kid Rock. Given your lack of affection for Sheryl Crow, I think we can agree that "Picture" is a song that should die a slow, horrible death.
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Post by Ron Nasty on Dec 11, 2008 4:02:02 GMT -5
I have to assume you haven't heard a lot of rap music. There have been many prominent rap artists who have used samples sparingly, if at all. Eminem, for example, largely created his own "samples" and backing tracks. Rap began with people improvising (or "freestyling") over records played by a DJ, but it evolved into other things. When rock & roll began, everyone generally used the same I-IV-V chord structure and sounded alike, but that genre evolved as well. OMG! The legendary Ron Nasty! ;D Hey Steve. I thought I'd pop in and see what's going on. I heard there was a minor disturbance in the Force.
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Post by John S. Damm on Dec 11, 2008 8:27:31 GMT -5
Given your lack of affection for Sheryl Crow, I think we can agree that "Picture" is a song that should die a slow, horrible death. ;D I actually didn't mind it the first 1,234,678 times I heard it! I am not a Kid Rock record buyer but his hit single this past summer was kind of fun in an old fashioned pop music radio way. It reminded me of the days when there were current "hit" songs that would make me smile when they came on the radio even though they were played to death. The songs you crank on the car stereo. I haven't felt that way since Mike Love and The Beach Boys' delightful Kokomo which buried Love And Mercy, released about the same time. "Now you're talking, JSD; I knew you'd get your candy-ass to come around! You tell Nasty: anytime, anyplace!"
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Post by sexysadie on Dec 14, 2008 7:12:16 GMT -5
You know, jimc, the CW is that it's the rightwingers who can't help resorting to personal put-downs. Congratulations on proving that it's the supposedly openminded "liberals" who really know how to play nasty. And don't bring my dog into it. She's perfect in every way, and never goes out of the yard. Two newspaper articles verified that Obama played rap--specifically Jay-Z--during at least one of his rallies. But because you didn't hear it at the rally YOU attended, those articles must be fabrications. Then you have to start throwing around all kinds of crap about racism. Let's get real--Obama was elected because he was black, not in spite of it. Just because rap is produced mainly by blacks for blacks doesn't mean it's racist for someone to criticize it. Rap is disgustingly misogynistic, and THAT'S why it was petty and inexcusable for a presidential candidate who had just been defeated in a debate by a woman to use it at a rally. If Steve wouldn't hit the "delete" button, I would love to tell you what you can do with your insinuation that my mentioning the issue was racist. I am completely fed up with anyone who criticizes Obama being called racist. I don't care one whit that he's black; I don't like him because he's arrogant, phony, and repeatedly declined to support honest reformers in Chicago, instead self-servingly throwing his lot in with the powerful and corrupt. One of his fellow Illinois legislators described Obama as so over-the-top ambitious that he would "run for king of the world if he could." What a racist he is! Nevermind that he's AA, he doesn't like Barry--racist, racist, racist! What can you say about someone who deliberately associated himself with people of dubious character just to advance his own political career, yet whenever one of his Chicago buddies shows his true colors, shovels the "that wasn't the man I knew" sh*t? An opportunist, certainly, and according to Evelyn Pringle (who has written extensively about Operation Board Games), possibly a criminal for his involvement in the Rezko land deal. But a squeaky clean innocent who knew nothing of what was going on around him? Totally implausible. Now he is taking the stench of Chicago to the WH with him, and his promise of "transparency" appears to be as hollow as all of his other promises. He doesn't need time to find out the truth regarding a replacement for his like-new, barely-used Senate seat. But it does take time to get everyone's story straight. Someone on his team was talking to Blagojevich, reportedly "Rahmbo" Emanuel. So why not just admit it? "New politics," my ass. Many of Obama's voters WERE woefully uninformed. American voters as a whole are ignorant about civics. Richard Dreyfuss--an extreme political liberal, even when he's killing sharks--thinks our citizens' lack of knowledge about their government and how it operates is a national disgrace, and is warning that the lack of proper civics education will compromise the survival of our democracy. You might want to check out Rick Shenkman's book, "Just How Stupid Are We?" FYI, in the poll that was taken after the election, on average McCain supporters got twice as many questions right as Obama supporters. All those self-absorbed under-30's, voting for the cool guy who sweet-talked them into believing he's going to heal the planet. They know nothing about our system of government. Pathetic. The MSM suddenly seems shocked--shocked--to discover how slimy the political machine which created Obama actually is. It's got nothing to do with Obama's race, which people like you, jimc, never fail to interject into the conversation, and everything to do with the fact that Obama sold himself to America as a "transformational leader," a change agent, a man who renounced politics-as-usual. Now Chicago thug politics has gone national, and everyone sees the disconnect. The media failed to vet Obama (too busy in Alaska digging up every speck of dirt on Palin), so we are stuck with a go-along-to-get-along guy who didn't have the guts to do the right thing on his way up in pay-to-play Chicago. After all, he's been looking to be POTUS since his twenties. You, who would have crawled through broken glass to make his egocentric dream come true, are thrilled by his impending coronation. But nowhere in any of your posts have I seen one intelligent reason for WHY you're thrilled. Tell me, what great accomplishment of Obama's short and unremarkable career has so impressed you? Instead you have to insult someone who disagrees with you by tossing out an idiotic "dog out of the yard" analogy, and a push-the-politically-correct-buttons tale of some bigoted kid. What about the 97% of the black population who voted for Obama (no racism there, of course), and the stories of AA's who refused to vote for him on principle, and how they have been ostracized and ridiculed by friends and family for not supporting "the brother?" I have a story, too--about a white student at a Maryland state university who felt so threatened on election night that she had to call a friend to take her off-campus. "Now you're gonna know, bitch, what it's like with us in charge." Sounds like rap, doesn't it? What a coincidence. Only I don't think it is.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2008 7:29:08 GMT -5
Given your lack of affection for Sheryl Crow, I think we can agree that "Picture" is a song that should die a slow, horrible death. ;D I actually didn't mind it the first 1,234,678 times I heard it! I am not a Kid Rock record buyer but his hit single this past summer was kind of fun in an old fashioned pop music radio way. It reminded me of the days when there were current "hit" songs that would make me smile when they came on the radio even though they were played to death. The songs you crank on the car stereo. I haven't felt that way since Mike Love and The Beach Boys' delightful Kokomo which buried Love And Mercy, released about the same time. "Now you're talking, JSD; I knew you'd get your candy-ass to come around! You tell Nasty: anytime, anyplace!"If Carl Wilson hadn't have been singing on Kokomo then in Mike Love's hands it would have been a shite song...he is the epitome of a lack of talent reaching the pinnacle...... No wonder Brian turned to drugs...carrying that waste of space...
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Post by jimc on Dec 14, 2008 11:12:19 GMT -5
Just because rap is produced mainly by blacks for blacks doesn't mean it's racist for someone to criticize it. Would you like a few minutes to analyze this statement? Clarify and/or revise?
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Post by jimc on Dec 14, 2008 11:44:35 GMT -5
You know, jimc, the CW is that it's the rightwingers who can't help resorting to personal put-downs. Congratulations on proving that it's the supposedly openminded "liberals" who really know how to play nasty. And don't bring my dog into it. She's perfect in every way, and never goes out of the yard. I re-read the post you are referring to. It was not personal. I was responding to the methods and words you use in your posts. Again, not about you personally. For example, the business about the dog: I used a simile -- "like." It was comparing the way you use words and attempt to make a point to an imaginary dog owner. You should read posts and responses more carefully. I have not said there was no rap at Obama rallies. I even made clear that I was referring to the rally I attended. I'm not the one trying to make some point about rap. I didn't bring it up. Why I voted for Obama: inspiration.
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Post by sayne on Dec 14, 2008 12:53:47 GMT -5
Let's get real--Obama was elected because he was black, not in spite of it. Actually, most people voted for him because of how well they can see him in the dark when he smiles. ;D
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Post by Ron Nasty on Dec 22, 2008 17:19:25 GMT -5
Given your lack of affection for Sheryl Crow, I think we can agree that "Picture" is a song that should die a slow, horrible death. ;D I actually didn't mind it the first 1,234,678 times I heard it! I am not a Kid Rock record buyer but his hit single this past summer was kind of fun in an old fashioned pop music radio way. It reminded me of the days when there were current "hit" songs that would make me smile when they came on the radio even though they were played to death. The songs you crank on the car stereo. I haven't felt that way since Mike Love and The Beach Boys' delightful Kokomo which buried Love And Mercy, released about the same time. "Now you're talking, JSD; I knew you'd get your candy-ass to come around! You tell Nasty: anytime, anyplace!""The Love Bloat"? LMAO Thanks for the new pic of the Lovester. It will make a fine addition to my website "tribute" to him... "'A Day in the Life'? What a f---in' DOWNER man!"
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Post by Ron Nasty on Dec 22, 2008 17:26:53 GMT -5
Just because rap is produced mainly by blacks for blacks doesn't mean it's racist for someone to criticize it.
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Post by John S. Damm on Dec 22, 2008 22:11:05 GMT -5
Just because rap is produced mainly by blacks for blacks doesn't mean it's racist for someone to criticize it. Oh my, that is hilarious. Mike is throwing some rhymes down!
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Post by Ron Nasty on Dec 23, 2008 3:08:44 GMT -5
Oh my, that is hilarious. Mike is throwing some rhymes down! I hear Mike Love is a "friend o' blacks." A lot's goin' down in that Winnebago.
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Post by John S. Damm on Dec 23, 2008 9:15:26 GMT -5
Oh my, that is hilarious. Mike is throwing some rhymes down! I hear Mike Love is a "friend o' blacks." A lot's goin' down in that Winnebago. He's back! [Shudder]
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nine
Very Clean
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Post by nine on Dec 24, 2008 2:15:19 GMT -5
If there was a picture beside redneck (or wanker) in the dictionary then it would be Mike's.
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Dec 24, 2008 6:28:54 GMT -5
After seeing Mike Love make his dopey acceptance speech at the ROCK AND ROLL HALL OF FAME, I'd say that if you look in the dictionary under the word "Jerk", there'd be his picture. Complete with the baseball cap to show his baldness insecurities, despite his faux confidence and bragging.
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