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Post by John S. Damm on Jan 25, 2015 2:13:29 GMT -5
Sorry bluecake and nicole, I have read what you have read on Heather Louise(because there is not a lot to read on her because she is hidden away) and despite your impassioned defense of all things Paul, there is something quite unsettling about Heather Louise's situation. I am allowed to express an opinion even if you disagree with it, right?
So is Heather mentally ill or is she not? nicole you waver on that point. bluecake as I anticipated the wrath of some, I cautioned that no one knows Heather's true situation, not just me but certainly not you and nicole either. But Heather's absence in all things Macca is not normal and runs terribly afoul of the Macca Family Values conventional wisdom we fans have been fed for decades.
bluecake your dismissal of Mel See as any kind of influence on Heather is offensive to me and right from the lyrics of Paul's "Dear Boy." How could any man possibly be as good a father as Sir Paul McCartney, eh? Mel See's "partner" was thought by his closest friends to possibly be involved in his death. Their relationship as such was done at his death as I have cited. Yeah I know, nicole can cite the Daily Mail about Heather Mills but when I do, or the NY Post, suddenly that is not credible. At least I gave cites, where are yours bluecake? And I in no way misrepresented anything in Sounes' book, he discovered that Linda made sure Heather's home is on land owned by Heather and that is not how it started out. It was on land owned by Paul and Linda but re-deeded to Heather. I wonder if Linda remembered Paul evicting his own stepmother once Jim McCartney passed away?
I never said the McCartney Clan doesn't love Heather, I did suggest that they don't know what to do with her so are quite content to have her hide away the rest of her life. As nicole's video piece from ET shows, Heather was once quite able to make public appearances, now she is not. She had an acting cameo in monster hit video "Say Say Say" as one of the young orphans or their young teacher. Heather would go to Stella's shows when Linda was alive. She ran a pottery business of quite upscale product(and I suspect influenced by the happy times with her biological father). So this now complete aversion to the public has not always been there and its now completeness and long-standing duration is jarring and troubling!
I deal with a mental health center and its goal is to help the clients lead productive, independent lives, not hide away forever like a modern day Miss Havisham especially when one wasn't always like that. So yes, I think it is neglect, bordering on a crime, for competent mental health treatment to be withheld from a person if that is the case.
Sure, we don't know the details of Heather Louise, not me and sure not bluecake and nicole despite your assertions to the contrary. I am simply expressing my opinion on Heather's unhappy situation based on my interpretation of the evidence before us. And as we know from the purchase and sealing of the "Linda Tapes," the McCartneys hide their family secrets as well as any family dynasty.
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Post by RockoRoll on Jan 25, 2015 4:46:44 GMT -5
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Post by nicole21290 on Jan 25, 2015 7:04:39 GMT -5
Sorry bluecake and nicole, I have read what you have read on Heather Louise(because there is not a lot to read on her because she is hidden away) and despite your impassioned defense of all things Paul, there is something quite unsettling about Heather Louise's situation. I am allowed to express an opinion even if you disagree with it, right? I don't think there's anything unsettling about it, personally, especially as we don't have enough data to judge what 'it' is. And of course you can express an opinion. And I can vehemently disagree with it. We don't know. She's never said so and my wavering is my attempt to not say definitively - it's why I talk about 'possible' mental health issues. She describes 'sorting herself out' and talks about stresses, rather than a depression. Her nerves, inability to cope with crowds, and so forth make me think of something anxiety related. Some of what she said rang true to my own experience, that's all. It's not for me to diagnose her, though. 'Not normal' how? We don't know the family's normal - we only see their PUBLIC image and what they want to show us. When we see that image, it's when they're being public figures and it isn't their 'normal' necessarily, though it's a part and aspect of it, as it has to be when you have a certain level of fame. Her absence seems, from what we can glean, to be of her own CHOICE, and I think that should be respected, not labelled 'abnormal'. His children don't all have the same personality or ability to cope with high attention situations. What Macca Family Values are these? From everything I've read, those values are rather good on staying true to oneself, protection and loyalty within the family, and things like that. I don't see any contradiction in Heather choosing not to be a public figure or attend public events with other members of the family. Nobody is saying that other men can't be as good as fathering as Paul is and was, for goodness' sake. It's just being pointed out that you may have perhaps overstated the Mel's direct influence on Heather's life. I generally don't like to cite The Daily Fail. Horrendous paper. Certainly, if I do, it's with the caveat that unless there's a direct quote from an actual SOURCE (not just 'a family friend') I don't automatically trust what is said, especially if it seems contradictory to other factual information. When I did (with my list of Heather's misdeeds), it's not to say the WHOLE article is true. Mostly, IIRC, it was to do with quotes from people who were willing to speak, not anonymous tipsters, etc. But why are you finding that fact ominous or significant? I don't understand the leap made there. You actually think Linda deeded the property so that Heather's own FATHER didn't kick her off the property? I mean, really, that's what is being implied by you here. Maybe, you know, as parents they wanted her to have a property of her own, in her own name... It doesn't have to be sinister. Aww, Paul's stepmother. Yes, she was charming. Sold Paul's birth certificate and other important things, IIRC, bless her. As for the thing about Angie and Ruth, you're a fan of Sounes, right? Please go re-read that section about them after Jim's death again. Another of Paul's rellies didn't approve of their 'indecent' haste in holiday in afterwards, and there were money issues, and issues with Ruth trying to get into showbiz things, IIRC. They weren't evicted so much as they stopped receiving Jim's pension. I'm not going to 'defend' Paul here, but neither will I condemn him. Again, we only know what Ruth's said about the situation. Generally, he seems to be incredibly loyal and generous (even in the 90s paying to fly an expert team over to England to operate on Horst Fasher's daughter - approximately $190,000) to those close to him. When they step over a line - whatever that line is - though, he cuts them. I think some of it has to do with not liking he or his name taken advantage of. Not the best quality to have but maybe a necessary one in some cases for a man in his position. I mean, for all the accusations of being a tightwad, this is a guy who loaned Howie Casey $15,000 to help buy a house and, when he couldn't pay it back, said that was okay, count it as a wedding present. He was hugely financially generous to Heather Mills - and her sister - even AFTER they separated. As is said in Sounes' book, he apparently sometimes even helped out family members financially so they haven't had to work, buying them homes, lending money, and so on. Or maybe SHE wants to 'hide away' and they abide by her wishes, because they respect her and agree that it's best for someone of her temperament and personality... Using ONE public appearance in her adulthood to say that 'she was able to make public appearances' isn't the greatest argument in the world. It was an exception, not the rule. And Paul was there to help her through it, and she said as much that she knew he would help her out if she needed to 'escape'. She didn't even want to be outside to be interviewed because all the people put her on edge. And that's fine. If she can live peaceably, mostly alone, doing satisfying work and seeing family and friends when necessary, I think that's fantastic. Good for her. I don't find ANYTHING about it troubling. We don't know how she spends her time, how much of it is spent working versus interacting with her family, and so on. Why should we assume she's anything but okay just because she doesn't make public appearances? She's NOT a public figure. I don't expect Paul's cousin's kids to make public appearances, but I'm sure he loves and is close to them, too, albeit not as close as he is to his daughter. *shrugs* Really?! Wow. Honestly, I would never have guessed. I know a little about mental health myself, though not as a professional. I've got anxiety and mild depression; and my grandfather, mother, and uncle all have bipolar disorder. I agree that it's important to lead productive, independent lives but there is NOTHING to suggest that Heather isn't doing that. Making public appearances when she's not a public figure and has nothing to promote isn't necessary, and probably would be remarkably uncomfortable and unnecessary for her. She probably gets plenty of physical exercise (walking dogs, riding horses); works on her pottery (which can help with self-worth, direction); spends time with family, etc. Saying she's 'hiding away like a modern day Miss Havisham' is just a ridiculous piece of conjecture and presumption. She made her public appearances mostly when she was much younger, and also mostly when Linda was still alive. One supportive parent to help you out is great; two is even better. We have no idea if she needs mental health treatment, or if she DOES receive it, or if it's competent or anything regarding the matter. Why assume the worst, simply because she doesn't make public appearances?! I make no assertion as to what the details of her life are like. I have a problem with others doing so, and I do try to couche everything in non-absolutes and 'I think' because of that. Oh, god, the Linda tapes thing again!? Paul went to a very PUBLIC place with the 'author' of those, and happily chatted away publicly while retrieving them. The worst family secrets on that, from what we know, involve the AMAZING STUNNING FACTS that - in the late 80s over a period of several weeks - Linda complained that life wasn't always easy with Paul. And guess what?! Paul and Linda both discussed them many, many times in magazines and other interviews. Just because he didn't want this chap releasing tapes of his late wife discussing family matters doesn't mean there's anything deeply harmful to Paul's reputation on there. Paul is a VERY private person.
CH: How have you dealt with your bereavement? PM: The main answer is my kids. I don't know what I would have done without them. Being such a close family, it hit us pretty much equally. They lost their best friend as well as their mum. It hit us all hard, but they have been very strong and very helpful. We've cried a lot together. None of us has held that back. We pretty much still cry, daily. Because Linda was so important, so much the center of everything in our lives. So it was mainly the kids. But I did get a counselor, realizing that I would need some sort of help. And although it's not much of a British tradition to do that, I was married to an American so I know quite a lot of people who have no problem with psychiatrists and counselors. Funnily enough, Linda used to know psychiatrists when when was young; she'd say, '"I used to sort out all their problems for them." And you know that's true. So I knew a particular one, who I talked to. He was a good help. It was mainly to get rid of some of my guilt. When anyone you love this much dies, one of the first things is that you wish you could have been perfect -- every minute of every day. But nobody's like that. I would say to Linda if we were arguing, "Look, I'm not Jesus Christ. I'm not a saint. I'm just some normal man. I'll try to do something about it but that's who I am, that's who you're married to." So I had quite a bit of guilt and probably still have. You remember arguments. When you're married you don't remember them so much, you just get on the next day and as long as you don't have too many and they're not too bad you figure it evens itself out. But when someone dies, you remember only the arguments in the first couple of weeks and the moments when I wasn't as nice as I would have wanted to be. So I need counseling with that. I found that really helpful.
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Post by vectisfabber on Jan 25, 2015 11:37:18 GMT -5
The most obvious conjecture here - and, like everything else in this discussion, it is mere conjecture - is that Heather is somewhere on a scale which starts at emotionally fragile and ends up someplace more serious, and the family is hugely protective of her: that would explain everything, including why Linda made sure her home was in her own name. Of course, it's also possible that they've all got it in for her, they're all ashamed of her, and they want to cast her out which is why Linda made sure her home was in her own name. My money's on the former rather than the latter.
I'd sooner be discussing the other Heather, where we don't have to speculate about her mental state: we know she's a sociopath.
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cosmo
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Post by cosmo on Jan 25, 2015 11:43:08 GMT -5
Interesting discussion.
I just miss seeing her. Wonder what she looks like in her middle age, wonder does she have a boyfriend or special friend, does she still do her pottery, that sort of thing. Not my business, I know. But I do enjoy seeing pics of Mary & Stella, esp with their kids, and would love to see Heather once in awhile. Paul and Linda were always surrounded by their children, and we watched them grow up. It's nice to see them as adults, and know that they seem to be happy.
Oh, and vectis- with you on the "other" Heather!
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Post by John S. Damm on Jan 25, 2015 12:38:50 GMT -5
I'd sooner be discussing the other Heather, where we don't have to speculate about her mental state: we know she's a sociopath. See, I know you are only half-serious but you can say Heather Mills is a sociopath and no one here except me will dissent even though none of us really know anymore about Heather Mills emotional situation than we do Heather Louise's. It is fine to say that you dislike HM, find her obnoxious and rude(while some of us find her gutsy and a fighter for underdogs), but none of us are anymore qualified to diagnose Mills than any of us are to diagnose Heather Louise yet I notice there is always zero objection to that as to Mills.
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Post by bluecake on Jan 25, 2015 14:31:54 GMT -5
John, the difference is that we talk about the facts, and those that are verifiably known, whereas you don't. You acknowledge that you have no information at all about the situation, then in the same post talk AS FACT that the McCartneys are withholding treatment from Heather. I've noticed a pattern in your posts, John, that you frequently twist things in order to basically accuse Paul and others of crimes you've invented in your head. It would be like if someone said, "I don't know if John is married, but he DEFINITELY beats his wife!"
No one except you, John, thinks a person living their life out of the spotlight is "abnormal." That is your bias, and not reflective of reality. Your ideas about mental health are also antiquated, and again, are yours alone. Only you, John, can't seem to grasp why someone might like to do things in their teens and twenties (like cameo in a music video) but not in their forties and firties. Only you, John, thinks living a private life means "hiding away."
The rumors were Heather was admitted in her twenties for in-patient treatment of severe depression. That is not a condition that means she can't live her life normally, nor is someone rendered incapacitated for life for having sought mental health treatment at one point.
As for facts, yes you do misrepresent them, John, and you do so rather nastily. When I pointed out that your fantasy in regards to Mel See and Heather's contact (that it was a long and happy relationship) was just that, your fantasy, contradicted by Heather's own words and the only source on Mel we have (his partner of decades' interview with Sounes) you instead moved the goalposts and now try to claim that his partner was involved in his death and can't be trusted! That is absolutely false. Mel committed suicide, it was never suspected of being murder (amongst forensic evidence, the man left a suicide note), and if you don't believe so, check with authorities in Arizona.
John, everyone is entitled to their opinion, but no one is entitled to their own interpretation of the facts. You've accused random people of actual crimes (including murder now!) in your posts on zero basis (or things that YOU'VE made up), which is slanderous. You could actually get Steve in trouble, but moreso, don't you have any basic humanity? How would you feel if someone here said they were "entitled" to the opinion that you committed a crime based on the speculation you offer? Like, "I heard from someone that John is into child porn," or, "I've never seen any members of his family post of appear in the public eye, I think John beats them and keeps them in the basement." Would you just roll with it? Would you think that's fair?
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Post by vectisfabber on Jan 25, 2015 16:08:02 GMT -5
See, I know you are only half-serious but you can say Heather Mills is a sociopath and no one here except me will dissent even though none of us really know anymore about Heather Mills emotional situation than we do Heather Louise's. I confess to being a little provocative by using the term "sociopath." I was seeking to get things a bit lighter. If I had sought to be serious (as I am now), I would have used the term "antisocial personality disorder" which is, I understand, the current term used for those previously referred to as sociopaths, and I'll use that term because it is shorter! Having had one of those in the family (married to my brother), I have done a fair amount of reading about it, and you often encounter lists of qualities which characterise sociopaths. They include lack of empathy but an ability to emulate normal social interactions, a gift for manipulating people, a need to be the centre of attention, and an indifference to truth. We normally expect responses to be true at face value, but sociopaths deliver responses on the basis of "What do I have to say to deliver the best result for me?" It becomes clear in hindsight that's what happened, but you don't expect it as it's going on, so you are completely outclassed at the time when someone is happy to lie as readily as tell the truth - and with complete conviction, and with total belief that what they have said is valid - in order to get things how they want them. The court judgement is fascinating as regards her evidence. Most of it seems to have been presented on the basis of "this is what I have to say to get the best result,", and it is fairly typical of a sociopath not to be able to recognise that they will be offering fundamental contradictions: what they say isn't put through a "truth" filter, only an "expediency" filter, so completely contradictory statements can be provided and regarded, in each case, as perfectly valid, since "valid" equals "expedient" not "true." Based on the court judgement, and the vast amount of comment about her behaviour from people she has been involved with throughout her life, I am quite convinced, in all seriousness, that Heather Mills is a sociopath.
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Post by RockoRoll on Jan 25, 2015 17:06:37 GMT -5
Interesting discussion. I just miss seeing her. Wonder what she looks like in her middle age, wonder does she have a boyfriend or special friend, does she still do her pottery, that sort of thing. Not my business, I know. But I do enjoy seeing pics of Mary & Stella, esp with their kids, and would love to see Heather once in awhile. Paul and Linda were always surrounded by their children, and we watched them grow up. It's nice to see them as adults, and know that they seem to be happy. Oh, and vectis- with you on the "other" Heather! Latest Photo's of Heather Louise, either April 2011 or on her 49th Birthday (31 Dec 2011) abbeyrd.proboards.com/thread/3955/beatle-kids
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Post by RockoRoll on Jan 25, 2015 17:21:23 GMT -5
This came up on Facebook this morning...... www.inquisitr.com/1786147/paul-mccartneys-former-wife-explains-how-losing-her-leg-was-easier-than-being-married-to-a-beatle/
Paul McCartney’s Former Wife Explains How Losing Her Leg Was Easier Than Being Married To A Beatle
Paul McCartney’s former wife Heather Mills has confessed that the hellish trauma of losing her leg was “easier to cope with” than the aftermath of her messy divorce from the man universally renowned as the second most popular member of The Beatles.
Former glamour model Mills, who lost her leg when she was hit by a police motorbike over 20 years ago, explained, “It is very hard to be married to a Beatle.”
McCartney’s ex-wife also reveals in her candid interview with Mail on Sunday Event magazine that prior to her partnership with Paul, she was not a fan of The Beatles music and explains how she now shuns the celebrity lifestyle.
Comparing her own situation to that of the other famous “Beatle women,” Heather makes the surprise announcement that losing her leg was more manageable in comparison to what happened to her after her divorce from McCartney.
“Linda had it tough, Yoko had it tough and what happened to me after the divorce… losing my leg was easier to cope with.”
Mills, who is set to appear on Channel 4’s daredevil winter sports show The Jump, also admitted that although her marriage to McCartney turned sour in a big way, she only married him in the first place because she was “completely in love with him,” before adding with hindsight, “But anyone who thinks marrying a rock legend is going to be paradise… it just isn’t.”
Despite getting on in years, 47-year-old Mills also explains she has never felt sexier or more confident.
“Even now, I’m 47 and if I see a hot man I know I can have him. I might not want him but I can have him. I think I am very sexy. I’m very confident as a woman and there isn’t a part of my body I’m not happy with. I’m not embarrassed about my leg – in fact a good chat-up line from me is, ‘How do you fancy massaging my stump?'”
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cosmo
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Post by cosmo on Jan 25, 2015 19:27:48 GMT -5
Well there it is in a nutshell. What could you NOT believe about someone who "is not a fan" of Beatles music?
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Post by John S. Damm on Jan 25, 2015 19:33:47 GMT -5
John, the difference is that we talk about the facts, and those that are verifiably known, whereas you don't. You acknowledge that you have no information at all about the situation, then in the same post talk AS FACT that the McCartneys are withholding treatment from Heather. I've noticed a pattern in your posts, John, that you frequently twist things in order to basically accuse Paul and others of crimes you've invented in your head. It would be like if someone said, "I don't know if John is married, but he DEFINITELY beats his wife!" No one except you, John, thinks a person living their life out of the spotlight is "abnormal." That is your bias, and not reflective of reality. Your ideas about mental health are also antiquated, and again, are yours alone. Only you, John, can't seem to grasp why someone might like to do things in their teens and twenties (like cameo in a music video) but not in their forties and firties. Only you, John, thinks living a private life means "hiding away." The rumors were Heather was admitted in her twenties for in-patient treatment of severe depression. That is not a condition that means she can't live her life normally, nor is someone rendered incapacitated for life for having sought mental health treatment at one point. As for facts, yes you do misrepresent them, John, and you do so rather nastily. When I pointed out that your fantasy in regards to Mel See and Heather's contact (that it was a long and happy relationship) was just that, your fantasy, contradicted by Heather's own words and the only source on Mel we have (his partner of decades' interview with Sounes) you instead moved the goalposts and now try to claim that his partner was involved in his death and can't be trusted! That is absolutely false. Mel committed suicide, it was never suspected of being murder (amongst forensic evidence, the man left a suicide note), and if you don't believe so, check with authorities in Arizona. John, everyone is entitled to their opinion, but no one is entitled to their own interpretation of the facts. You've accused random people of actual crimes (including murder now!) in your posts on zero basis (or things that YOU'VE made up), which is slanderous. You could actually get Steve in trouble, but moreso, don't you have any basic humanity? How would you feel if someone here said they were "entitled" to the opinion that you committed a crime based on the speculation you offer? Like, "I heard from someone that John is into child porn," or, "I've never seen any members of his family post of appear in the public eye, I think John beats them and keeps them in the basement." Would you just roll with it? Would you think that's fair? bluecake, please for once cite your sources! Please, any source other than your long narrations. Please, please, please, please, any citation! Any, please! Heather Louise was once a functioning McCartney who was seen at family events, was in musical videos, was promoting her wares with her father(Paul) and now she does none of those things, zero, nada, zip since 1999! I have raised questions about this. It is odd. Why are you so afraid and angry about Heather re-connecting with Mel See as you are? Read nicole's interview of Heather and her love of the tribes she lived with. She didn't meet them through Sir Paul! She met them through Mel See, an anthropologist. But of course, you have been in touch with Arizona authorities and are in the know! There is life outside of the McCartney Clan, you don't need to live vicariously through them. Psss, Stella is not really your sister, Paul not really your father! Being a Macca Mad Hatter should not define your life! Slander?! You have just engaged in per se slander of me by suggesting I like child porn! Really?!
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Post by John S. Damm on Jan 25, 2015 19:47:50 GMT -5
“Even now, I’m 47 and if I see a hot man I know I can have him. I might not want him but I can have him. I think I am very sexy. I’m very confident as a woman and there isn’t a part of my body I’m not happy with. I’m not embarrassed about my leg – in fact a good chat-up line from me is, ‘How do you fancy massaging my stump?'” Rocko, that is my kind of woman. Heather Mills definitely wouldn't want me, but she damn well knows that she could have me!It is a reason for me to believe!
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Post by RockoRoll on Jan 25, 2015 20:07:22 GMT -5
“Even now, I’m 47 and if I see a hot man I know I can have him. I might not want him but I can have him. I think I am very sexy. I’m very confident as a woman and there isn’t a part of my body I’m not happy with. I’m not embarrassed about my leg – in fact a good chat-up line from me is, ‘How do you fancy massaging my stump?'” Rocko, that is my kind of woman. Heather Mills definitely wouldn't want me, but she damn well knows that she could have me!It is a reason for me to believe! lol....I knew you were going to love that paragraph, that's why I highlighted it...........*laugh* Anyway, switching hats to the other Heather (louise), I couldn't find much info on her current health....? This is an article in 2013 on Beatles-Rarity-of-the-Week, it mentions Joseph See, also in the comments, someone mentioned he had severe depression? Linda's entire 220 million dollar estate to Paul etc? www.thebeatlesrarity.com/2013/01/14/beatles-rarity-of-the-week-heather-improvisation-1968/Found this on the internet, on one of her biography sites? She was hospitalized for depression following a 'personal identity crisis.' She said, 'I'm very insecure, really, so I do all the wrong things.'
This was from one of her fans on Facebook, in the comments section? She is not nuts! She just suffers from the occasional bouts of depression and lives in a cottage within Paul's Estate in Sussex - She is definitely not locked up...?
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Post by John S. Damm on Jan 25, 2015 20:22:01 GMT -5
This was from one of her fans on Facebook, in the comments section? She is not nuts! She just suffers from the occasional bouts of depression and lives in a cottage within Paul's Estate in Sussex - She is definitely not locked up...?Doesn't sound very convincing to me! Why would a Heather "fan" even write that except out of defensiveness! Oh, has someone other than JSD raised that issue! I am not on Heather's Facebook!
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Post by bluecake on Jan 25, 2015 20:42:40 GMT -5
Nicole has already taken care of that, but why should anyone bother when you, John, deliberately don't read them, ignore them, or misconstrue them? John, I've looked at your post history and you offer zero sources except tabloids for your flights of fantasy, and even then you seem to have a comprehension problem.
Only you, John, think Heather living a private life is unusual. None of Paul's children have appeared in a music video of his, save for "Say Say Say." Why not apply the same standard to them? Why do you think that's so weird? Hmm, a twentysomething woman enjoyed dressing up for a brief cameo in a video her dad with the biggest pop star of the day, and in which her mom and other siblings also had cameos? It's absolutely IMPOSSIBLE to think why someone might do that as a fun lark once, and have no desire to do it again. Why isn't a fiftysomething year old woman, who is not a pop star, musician, and who lives her own life not doing wall to wall music videos? What a mystery indeed!
I already pointed out the ways in which you, John, made up things based on Sounes' book. Yes, Heather did mention in one of her interviews that she connected with the native tribes in Mexico while vacationing there. What does that have to do AT ALL with her having a good relationship with Mel See? He did not live in Mexico. He was not a member of those tribes. According to Mel's partner, Heather stayed with them shortly as it a stop on her travels. Anyone can read Sounes' book, and Mel's death is a matter of public record.
Why are you so afraid, John, of the facts? Why does is bother you so much that Heather's father is Paul, and that she did not reconnect at length with her biological father? Why do you care? I think it's because you're embarrassed at being called out on your mistakes. You're a Lennonist, and you want to spin your anti-Paul fairytales and are annoyed when people debunk them. In this case, you wanted to make Paul seem the Big Bad, and that poor Heather was embraced by the white knight of Mel See who in your mind, was Wonder Dad. The reality that Heather and her biological father met a handful of times in her adulthood and were cordial, but didn't develop a meaningful relationship, threatens you. I think you post these things not because you necessarily believe them totally, but because if you throw enough things at the wall in this forum, people will get tired of debunking them and start ignoring you. Then maybe naive Beatles fan who aren't as well-versed in facts will just take your word as Gospel.
John, I think you're part of a small subset of Lennon fans who - as older, white men - feel threatened about the decline in John Lennon's image. You and your ilk are being replaced by a new generation of Beatles fans, scholars and music writers who don't buy the St. Lennon image that you're so invested in. We're the people who were born after John's death, who aren't impressed with John's solo work, and who've shown a spotlight on the contributions of Paul and George, rather than mindlessly accepting the Gospel of John as Sole Genius.
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Post by nicole21290 on Jan 25, 2015 21:13:45 GMT -5
I like a good contemporary source, by the way, so here's an article from the time of Mel See's suicide (not murder)...
Tuesday, 21 March 2000 Art expert Mel See a suicide; Linda McCartney's first spouse By Carol Ann Alaimo The Arizona Daily Star In life, Tucsonan Joseph Melville See Jr. toiled in obscurity, filming indigenous people of Mexico. In death, he may be best remembered as the first husband of the late Linda McCartney, a man who endured decades of rumors that he was the character called Jo-Jo in a 1969 Beatles song. See, 62, a cultural anthropologist and expert on pre-Columbian art, died Sunday of a self-inflicted gunshot wound on his property on in the foothills of the Tucson Mountains, friends said yesterday. He had recently seemed troubled over personal problems, friends said. ``This is such a shock. It's a huge loss for everyone who knew him,'' said Debra Zeller, an art historian and one of See's closest friends. See, who went by the name Mel, was the father of Heather McCartney, Linda's eldest daughter, born during See's short-lived marriage to the then-Linda Eastman in the early 1960s. Paul McCartney adopted the child when he married Linda in 1969. Heather, now 37, had little relationship with her natural dad for much of her life. But she re-established contact with See about 10 years ago, and they were on good terms, Zeller said. Heather McCartney was notified of her father's death and is expected to come to Tucson to help settle his affairs, said friend Jonathan Kress of Tucson. For years, See was the subject of persistent rumors that he was the real-life Jo-Jo in the Beatles' hit song ``Get Back,'' which says ``Jo-Jo left his home in Tucson, Arizona, for some California grass.'' Kress said people have asked him if that line was a reference to See, ``and I have to tell them, I honestly don't know.'' Zeller said See himself ``kind of laughed about it,'' whenever the question came up. ``He knew there was a rumor and he thought it was kind of funny.'' Linda McCartney's 1998 death from breast cancer ``hit him really, really hard,'' Zeller said. ``He began to realize that he was mortal, too.''
Kress said there was no ill will between the ex-spouses. See had several relationships after that, but never married again. See was born in New York and came to Tucson in 1960 after graduating from Princeton University. He earned a master's degree in geology from the University of Arizona while he and Linda were married and she was studying art history at UA. After the marriage ended, See went on to become a respected ethnographer who made documentaries about tribal people whose cultures were threatened. Often, the work required travel to remote or dangerous areas. Among his works were films on the Huichol Indians of central Mexico, the Tarahumara tribe in the Chihuahua area, and the Seri Indians on Mexico's west coast. See had a passion for the work and a knack for gaining the trust of the native people he filmed, Zeller said. ``He had so much respect for them. He would sit on the edge of their land and wait for days for someone to pass by so he could try to talk to them. He would never intrude by going uninvited onto their land.'' An expert on ancient artwork from the period prior to 1600, See also designed and set up the pre-Columbian art collection at the Tucson Museum of Art, Zeller said.
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Post by John S. Damm on Jan 25, 2015 21:25:11 GMT -5
Nicole has already taken care of that, but why should anyone bother when you, John, deliberately don't read them, ignore them, or misconstrue them? John, I've looked at your post history and you offer zero sources except tabloids for your flights of fantasy, and even then you seem to have a comprehension problem. I am flattered that you took such time, can I add you as a "fan?" Sure any young adult would want to be in a video with Paul and Michael Jackson! That was my whole point! If Heather wanted to be in a video with Paul and Kanye today all she would have to do is ask and Paul would love it! But no, hi-ho, hi-ho it's off to her cottage Heather goes. But there was a time when such was important to her. Her interviews to the press, Heather right next to Linda at Stella's all show a young woman who was once comfortable in her own skin. The "partner", what is her name then? It was given in my citatation. She and Mel were on the big time outs at his tragic death. And come on bluecake, what was Heather's only connection to indigenous tribes in Mexico!? Her biological father Mel See who was a renowned expert in the field. Heather did not throw a dart at the map and just pick a spot. You are more uptight about this than anything else, that Heather had the gall to turn to her biological father when things were grey and cloudy to her elsewhere! How can I be, you don't give any, just your narration of events. I am the first to acknowledge that Paul is Heather's father. He legally adopted her and with the consent of Mel See. But that didn't mak Mel See just disappear or be irrelevant. In fact, as the New York Post reported, Heather's time with Mel See was important to her. I know, "the partner" says otherwise. Spoken as a true Macca Mad Hatter to a Lennonist! Yoko and Sean might not like your characterization of Lennonist as older white men but whatever. This is the whole crux of your argument, everything comes to this, to marginalize and put in his place that naughty "St. Lennon." My work is done here, your motive has been exposed!
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Post by John S. Damm on Jan 25, 2015 21:34:06 GMT -5
I like a good contemporary source, by the way, so here's an article from the time of Mel See's suicide (not murder)... Tuesday, 21 March 2000 Art expert Mel See a suicide; Linda McCartney's first spouse By Carol Ann Alaimo The Arizona Daily Star In life, Tucsonan Joseph Melville See Jr. toiled in obscurity, filming indigenous people of Mexico. In death, he may be best remembered as the first husband of the late Linda McCartney, a man who endured decades of rumors that he was the character called Jo-Jo in a 1969 Beatles song. See, 62, a cultural anthropologist and expert on pre-Columbian art, died Sunday of a self-inflicted gunshot wound on his property on in the foothills of the Tucson Mountains, friends said yesterday. He had recently seemed troubled over personal problems, friends said. ``This is such a shock. It's a huge loss for everyone who knew him,'' said Debra Zeller, an art historian and one of See's closest friends. See, who went by the name Mel, was the father of Heather McCartney, Linda's eldest daughter, born during See's short-lived marriage to the then-Linda Eastman in the early 1960s. Paul McCartney adopted the child when he married Linda in 1969. Heather, now 37, had little relationship with her natural dad for much of her life. But she re-established contact with See about 10 years ago, and they were on good terms, Zeller said. Heather McCartney was notified of her father's death and is expected to come to Tucson to help settle his affairs, said friend Jonathan Kress of Tucson. For years, See was the subject of persistent rumors that he was the real-life Jo-Jo in the Beatles' hit song ``Get Back,'' which says ``Jo-Jo left his home in Tucson, Arizona, for some California grass.'' Kress said people have asked him if that line was a reference to See, ``and I have to tell them, I honestly don't know.'' Zeller said See himself ``kind of laughed about it,'' whenever the question came up. ``He knew there was a rumor and he thought it was kind of funny.'' Linda McCartney's 1998 death from breast cancer ``hit him really, really hard,'' Zeller said. ``He began to realize that he was mortal, too.'' Kress said there was no ill will between the ex-spouses. See had several relationships after that, but never married again. See was born in New York and came to Tucson in 1960 after graduating from Princeton University. He earned a master's degree in geology from the University of Arizona while he and Linda were married and she was studying art history at UA. After the marriage ended, See went on to become a respected ethnographer who made documentaries about tribal people whose cultures were threatened. Often, the work required travel to remote or dangerous areas. Among his works were films on the Huichol Indians of central Mexico, the Tarahumara tribe in the Chihuahua area, and the Seri Indians on Mexico's west coast. See had a passion for the work and a knack for gaining the trust of the native people he filmed, Zeller said. ``He had so much respect for them. He would sit on the edge of their land and wait for days for someone to pass by so he could try to talk to them. He would never intrude by going uninvited onto their land.'' An expert on ancient artwork from the period prior to 1600, See also designed and set up the pre-Columbian art collection at the Tucson Museum of Art, Zeller said. Thanks nicole! Heather and her bio dad on good terms at his death and it establishes Heather's ties to the Huichol and the Tarahumara tribes had to be 100% through Mr. See. And your other interview posted yesterday had Heather saying how important they were to her lives! Thank you, it looks like bluecake and I are both co-opting on your citations! See, I read this stuff, always have!
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Post by scousette on Jan 25, 2015 22:15:26 GMT -5
"He who has the gold, makes the rules."
Nowhere is this more apparent than in the situation whee Linda Eastman See, wanting to snag a rock star, managed to snare Paul McCartney.
She met him in London at the Bag O'Nails in Soho, where she was with member of the Animals, and finagled herself into attending the press conference at Brian Epstein's home in Belgravia, London, for the launch of Sgt Pepper,
Linda was as conniving as Heather Mills when it came to landing a rich and famous man
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Post by bluecake on Jan 25, 2015 23:30:28 GMT -5
This is why it's hard to take your comments seriously, John. It's hard to believe a person can't see the difference between a twentysomething in the early 80s maybe wanting to be in a Michael Jackson video at the time as a lark vs. a fiftysomething year old British woman who probably doesn't listen to Kanye West and, if she WAS a fan, would likely never want to be in a music video again.
I can't believe it's that incomprehensible to you that something that might be "important" to one person when they're 21 (although it's a big assumption that the video was important and not just a lark) is not the same as what's important to them at 52. At one point, Heather wore diapers, and she doesn't now - is that a big conspiracy, too? I've seen photos of her dressed up like a puppy - I assume she doesn't do that now, what changed??? I haven't seen Heather play Ringo's drums since she was 6 years old and they were recording Let it Be - need to get to the bottom of that! Heather used to have a Mohawk when she was a teen, since then she's worn her hair long and straight - scandalous!
I thank Nicole for that article, but there are inaccuracies in it because it was so close to Mel's death, and also only quoted "friends." For example, the "friend" who thought Mel and Heather were on good terms and she was going to come to Arizona to "settle his affairs?" That never happened.
The Puma County Sheriff's Office ruled Mel's death a suicide and confirmed that there was never a murder investigation, just the standard investigation done into any death. Sounes seems to think that the murder rumors came from a crazy neighbor of Mel's, who insisted to Sounes (and presumably other journalists who came around) that Mel was a secret CIA agent murdered by the U.S. government.
And John, if you have the Sounes book, why are you asking me for information about it? If you'd actually read it, you'd know that Mel's partner's name is Beverly Wilk. And you'd also know that they weren't "majorly on the outs" when he died. Mel had had an affair with another woman, perhaps a sign/symptom of his disorder, though he confessed and Beverly chose to remain with him. Mel then went off his anti-depressants and acted increasingly erratically for months before his death (obsessively reading the Bible, talking about death), and refused to go back on his meds despite the urging of Beverly and his friends. Beverly and him were still living together in their home at the time of his death. She was the one who found his body.
Heather was not the executor of his estate. In fact, Mel left a draft of a suicide note asking to be cremated originally addressed to Heather, then changed his mind and instead wrote a new one addressed to a male friend to be his executor instead.
Heather's time in Mexico was important to her, sure, by her own words. But that is a lot different than your fairytale that she "turned to her biological father" and he became Wonder Dad who would have solved all her problems if he had just lived (though he couldn't solve his own mental problems to prevent him from killing himself). I'm sure Heather appreciated that he'd turned her on to Mexican native art (if he was the one who did so) but sparking her interest did not mean that he became her father again, nor that they became close. She didn't live with him. She enjoyed her travels but they were just that, travels. She returned to England to be with her family and at home. Mel was not her family, and she was only occasional contact with him for the rest of his life. In fact, Mel didn't even have Heather's phone number at the time of his death. Beverly had to call John Eastman's office to get word to Heather that Mel had died.
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cosmo
Very Clean
Posts: 264
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Post by cosmo on Jan 26, 2015 9:17:49 GMT -5
"He who has the gold, makes the rules." Nowhere is this more apparent than in the situation whee Linda Eastman See, wanting to snag a rock star, managed to snare Paul McCartney. She met him in London at the Bag O'Nails in Soho, where she was with member of the Animals, and finagled herself into attending the press conference at Brian Epstein's home in Belgravia, London, for the launch of Sgt Pepper, Linda was as conniving as Heather Mills when it came to landing a rich and famous man True...but I think Linda wanted him because he was a Beatle, not because he was rich! Makes it marginally better...after all, which one of us ladies wouldn't have jumped at any chance to marry one of the lads?
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Post by mikev on Jan 26, 2015 9:58:55 GMT -5
"He who has the gold, makes the rules." Nowhere is this more apparent than in the situation whee Linda Eastman See, wanting to snag a rock star, managed to snare Paul McCartney. She met him in London at the Bag O'Nails in Soho, where she was with member of the Animals, and finagled herself into attending the press conference at Brian Epstein's home in Belgravia, London, for the launch of Sgt Pepper, Linda was as conniving as Heather Mills when it came to landing a rich and famous man True...but I think Linda wanted him because he was a Beatle, not because he was rich! Makes it marginally better...after all, which one of us ladies wouldn't have jumped at any chance to marry one of the lads? Linda was a wealthy groupie, who happened to actually take great photos IMO, that likely opened doors for her.
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Post by John S. Damm on Jan 26, 2015 12:04:22 GMT -5
I think Rocko posted this already(the article about Heather being able to flaunt her sexiness) but today there is a motherload of new articles on Ms. Mills although I suspect they are close to the same thing: The Daily Mail, "'Losing my leg? That was easier to cope with than my divorce from Paul': Heather Mills on marriage and McCartney:" www.dailymail.co.uk/home/event/article-2921963/Heather-Mills-Paul-McCartney-marriage.htmlThe Daily News: "Legless model and Paul McCartney's ex Heather Mills admits: 'I use my stump to pick up men:'" www.nydailynews.com/entertainment/gossip/legless-model-heather-mills-stump-pick-men-article-1.2091188The Mirror, "The Jump: Heather Mills has broken 'every bone in her body' but refuses to give up:" www.mirror.co.uk/tv/tv-news/jump-heather-mills-broken-every-5044973That "nibble on my fake toes" story never gets old! Seriously, Heather's ability to overcome adversity in all forms makes her a perfect role model for young people today, especially young women out there! She describes Paul as part "Peter Pan" and part "Captain Hook!" And vectis, words of wisdom from the Daily Mail: According to popular myth, there is only one Heather Mills.
A mad, very bad, wild-eyed harpy who married and divorced the universally beloved Paul McCartney, turning her – for a substantial chunk of the Noughties – into Lady Mucca, aka the ‘most hated woman in Britain’.
But from an upside-down perspective in the blinding white glare of the morning sunlight on the icy slopes of Kuhtai, Austria, Mills is nothing short of an Alpine goddess......" Daily Mail, Louise Gannon For Event Magazine
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Post by vectisfabber on Jan 26, 2015 14:10:09 GMT -5
I don't hate her (any more than I hate any other lying cheats), and I have never denied her bulgy attributes.
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lowbasso
A Hard Day's Knight
Posts: 2,776
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Post by lowbasso on Jan 26, 2015 18:10:47 GMT -5
Is it just me or are most of the threads on this board lately reading like The National Enquirer or People Magazine?
Does anyone other than a handful of posters want to discuss serious Beatles or solo Beatles items anymore?
This place reads more like a rag magazine full of extra-curricular crap about ex-wives. Jeez...enough already!
Ok, now here comes all the "Well, don't read the threads if you are not interested" leveled at me as usual; But anything truly worthwhile discussing is getting buried under all the other crap.....
Time for a break I guess....
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Post by debjorgo on Jan 26, 2015 19:02:56 GMT -5
Is it just me or are most of the threads on this board lately reading like The National Enquirer or People Magazine? Does anyone other than a handful of posters want to discuss serious Beatles or solo Beatles items anymore? This place reads more like a rag magazine full of extra-curricular crap about ex-wives. Jeez...enough already! Ok, now here comes all the "Well, don't read the threads if you are not interested" leveled at me as usual; But anything truly worthwhile discussing is getting buried under all the other crap..... Time for a break I guess.... I'm with you on this one, lowbasso. I don't have any use for National Inquirer. But People magazine isn't that bad. At least it reports facts and real interviews. I read it when I'm at the dentist. I liked the Heather Louise updates. I have to favor the she's her own person and can do what she wants side of the argument. I'm sure Paul and the family are keeping in close touch with her. On Heather Mills, It was nice to see all of her crimes compiled together but she is Beatrice's mother and thereby forever in the family. (I'm not a big big-breast loving guy, myself. I like that bee-sting look much better.)
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Post by John S. Damm on Jan 26, 2015 19:11:57 GMT -5
And Threads on scary Beatles puppets in Spain! Just kidding. abbeyrd.proboards.com/thread/5154/come-beatles-strings-attachedCome on lowbasso, this is the Paul McCartney Section and the sub-title is " The Life and Music of Paul McCartney." When we get very little of value from Apple, when the group we love has been broken up for 45 year, and when two beloved members have been gone respectively 35 years and 14 years, yeah there are some slow days/weeks/months. We all do Google News alerts and right now the only "Beatles" news is Paul and Kanye, Heather Mills returning to the spotlight and Kurt Cobain covers "And I Love Her" in a new documentary coming to HBO soon. That's it, man. I wish we had Let It Be out in a deluxe DVD Box with hours of bonus footage and music! We could discuss that for a couple months. Alas, we don't. Maybe we need a tournament but half the members play, the other half don't. I sometimes envy Message Boards for active bands, they deal with mostly the now and not history and some of our Beatles' history is quite old now.
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Jan 27, 2015 5:12:56 GMT -5
The Daily Mail, "'Losing my leg? That was easier to cope with than my divorce from Paul': Heather Mills on marriage and McCartney:" I still have the Barbara Walters interview where Heathen talked against her husband Paul, while they were still married, and before her divorce. It was there (also?) that she used her all-purpose "it was worse that when I lost my leg" line. She actually said that the time she'd spent with Paul (the first year, I think) was "worse than when I lost my leg". I can't stand her. Really.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2015 5:29:06 GMT -5
Heather Mills doing the jumping, that's a change from someone jumping Heather Mills.
I like her, i'd love to see her throw the leg....
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