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Post by Panther on Mar 28, 2015 8:17:16 GMT -5
Coachbk is right. 'Imagine' doesn't need to be analyzed like a soapbox treatise by Lenin (the other one) in 1916. The lyric of 'Imagine' is kind of like 'Dream Girl' by Arthur Alexander, except it's imagining a utopian world instead of a utopian relationship. What a nice idea by John -- let's make a utopia here on earth, instead of getting caught up partisan fights over borders, religions, etc.
I think Stevie Wonder had much the same idea in another song I love, 'Pastime Paradise', which points out the futility of trying to live in the past "when things were better", while ignoring one's own everyday life. Stevie takes more a religious perspective, singing "Let's start living our lives / living for the future paradise".
Even if one hates the lyrics (which would baffle me, but nevertheless...), as Coachbk says, "Imagine" is certainly one of John's most beautiful melodies and most perfect songs on a musical level.
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Post by debjorgo on Mar 28, 2015 8:58:15 GMT -5
... I see the core substance of the message of that song as no God to answer to but ourselves, no individual rights to property, no nations. Save the first one, Lennon was perhaps inadvertently describing the Christian view of heaven, where the inhabitants are spiritually minded (in fact, spirits themselves) and unconcerned with borders and things of a material nature. I can imagine such a realm--I yearn for it--but I know it's not of this world, and never can be. Efforts to impose it by force have proven to be failures, and Lennon rejected the clearest way of getting volunteers to do it now--religion. Bottom line for me: Lennon invited us to "imagine all these things." So, when I imagine how good life could be if all mankind acted out of selfless love for one another, I make the leap to the next level--"how do we do this?" It's at the second level that I find Lennon's philosophy here to be shallow--he hadn't thought that far in advance to know it can't work. A brief daydream is far different that a philosophy. JcS The idea that your spirit somehow survives death and that you should live your life based on that is ridiculous. That this has convinced so many people for so many years and that it is still so prevalent today only shows how primitive human thinking still is today. We definitely need to send the very message that John was sending. We give ourselves a better life on earth by being less selfish. I don't know any more about life after death or any great super-being watching over everything than anybody else but the belief or disbelief should not change anything you do in life. Encouraging this is what has got us where we are today.
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Post by joeyself on Mar 28, 2015 9:45:57 GMT -5
Totally agree on the melody and the performance of "Imagine;" it is very well done on those levels.
And Debjorgo, read what you wrote again, and you'll see the very definition of "ridiculous." You don't know any more about a subject than anyone else, but you belittle the belief of millions? If one believes that one will have to answer for one's deeds in the flesh, one would conduct himself differently than if one thinks he is no more than an animal. One would be less selfish and more caring.
JcS
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lowbasso
A Hard Day's Knight
Posts: 2,776
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Post by lowbasso on Mar 28, 2015 11:09:10 GMT -5
... I see the core substance of the message of that song as no God to answer to but ourselves, no individual rights to property, no nations. Save the first one, Lennon was perhaps inadvertently describing the Christian view of heaven, where the inhabitants are spiritually minded (in fact, spirits themselves) and unconcerned with borders and things of a material nature. I can imagine such a realm--I yearn for it--but I know it's not of this world, and never can be. Efforts to impose it by force have proven to be failures, and Lennon rejected the clearest way of getting volunteers to do it now--religion. Bottom line for me: Lennon invited us to "imagine all these things." So, when I imagine how good life could be if all mankind acted out of selfless love for one another, I make the leap to the next level--"how do we do this?" It's at the second level that I find Lennon's philosophy here to be shallow--he hadn't thought that far in advance to know it can't work. A brief daydream is far different that a philosophy. JcS The idea that your spirit somehow survives death and that you should live your life based on that is ridiculous. That this has convinced so many people for so many years and that it is still so prevalent today only shows how primitive human thinking still is today. We definitely need to send the very message that John was sending. We give ourselves a better life on earth by being less selfish. I don't know any more about life after death or any great super-being watching over everything than anybody else but the belief or disbelief should not change anything you do in life. Encouraging this is what has got us where we are today. "The idea that your spirit somehow survives death and that you should live your life based on that is ridiculous." I respect your religious or more likely non-religious beliefs, but a statement like that is purely selfish and self-indulgent. Think about what you just said. You make a judgement call for the rest of us calling anyone who may have Faith and religious beliefs like the one above as something ridiculous? That makes you no better than the religious zealots in the Middle East who have decided how everyone should think or believe, or how they should live their lives. Faith is a large part of the world my friend. Both the good and the bad in the world often live their lives based on how they see what will happen to them after death. The primary issue in the world is to find a way to respect your fellow human being regardless of his or her Faith, or beliefs, and make no judgement on them how you feel they should think. Primitive thinking is what has the world in the predicament it has found itself for thousand of years; unable to accept each others beliefs, and the ability to respect them and the sanctity of life itself, which is the right of every human being to not be taken by another. I fail to see how Faith or life after death of the spirit is primitive thinking. Good and evil will always do battle in man. It is inherant in us. Learned behavior and enlightenment is what can determine the path in life we will take. I think this is John's ultimate message in Imagine. As fallible humans, which we all are, this is the best we can hope for while we are here on this earth.
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Post by debjorgo on Mar 28, 2015 12:40:19 GMT -5
I'll backtrack a little on this but I said the belief is ridiculous not the person believing it. If you take your own personal beliefs out of it, the idea of a master creator seems pretty far-fetched. To place your faith so far in the front that it becomes the only focus in your life is not well thought out.
I'm certainly not criticizing your average person who gets enjoyment out of going to church or finds comfort in belief in a higher cause.
But when someone carries that faith to extremes, they should be criticized for their beliefs.
I personally believe when we die we are part of a great consciousness that we return to. Ridiculous as that is, I believe it. It doesn't change how I live my life though.
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Post by debjorgo on Mar 28, 2015 12:46:51 GMT -5
Totally agree on the melody and the performance of "Imagine;" it is very well done on those levels. And Debjorgo, read what you wrote again, and you'll see the very definition of "ridiculous." You don't know any more about a subject than anyone else, but you belittle the belief of millions? If one believes that one will have to answer for one's deeds in the flesh, one would conduct himself differently than if one thinks he is no more than an animal. One would be less selfish and more caring. JcS Why are most atheist kind and decent people? They are not going to be punished if bad or rewarded for being good in the afterlife. The idea that you do it to make the world you are currently living in a better place is a much better incentive.
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Post by debjorgo on Mar 28, 2015 13:10:17 GMT -5
I have to add, I don't mean to disrespect anyone or their beliefs. I certainly don't believe anyone should be discriminated against in the workplace or in housing or whatever, for their beliefs.
John gets criticized a lot for the "no possessions" line. He's not saying give up everything you own. He's saying to take yourself out of your normal way of thinking and imagine things different. Then imagine what's important when you are considering everyone's best interest.
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Post by debjorgo on Mar 28, 2015 14:01:51 GMT -5
Let me back out of this even more. I was just reading an article about Bill Maher. He tends to say things in a blunt sort of way, not worrying about peoples feelings.
I was raised a Baptist/Holinest Christian. I think I'll always have that upbringing in the foundations of my beliefs.
I tend to take the devil's advocate, pardon the pun, against religion at times. It doesn't mean that's how I feel in general, it's just a point of view I take to express an alternate idea.
I hope I did not offend anyone. I'm extremely sorry if I did.
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andyb
Very Clean
Posts: 878
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Post by andyb on Mar 29, 2015 13:43:20 GMT -5
I hope I did not offend anyone. I'm extremely sorry if I did. No offence taken here. I suspect life after death will have a remarkable similarity to life before birth. It's a shame we're never ever going to know.
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