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Post by OldFred on May 30, 2013 15:37:32 GMT -5
Howard Kaylan of the Turtles has written a book about his life called 'Shell Shocked: My Life With The Turtles and Frank Zappa, etc.', with bits about some of the famous folks he interacted with in career like the Beatles, Frank Zappa, etc. According to this review of the book, there are some unflattering stories about John Lennon and Paul McCartney in it. I'm aware of the stories that Lennon could be a very mean guy in person, and I've personally saw it myself in my brief encounter with the man in the 70's. Kaylan's book looks like an interesting read, though. Shell Shocked ReviewClick on the link to read the review of the book.
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Post by OldFred on May 30, 2013 16:24:08 GMT -5
This is related to the Turtles book review and may have already been seen by folks on the board and the story known about what really occurred when John & Yoko jammed with Zappa at the Filmore East.
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Post by Joe Karlosi on May 31, 2013 5:46:02 GMT -5
Howard Kaylan of the Turtles has written a book about his life called 'Shell Shocked: My Life With The Turtles and Frank Zappa, etc.', with bits about some of the famous folks he interacted with in career like the Beatles, Frank Zappa, etc. According to this review of the book, there are some unflattering stories about John Lennon and Paul McCartney in it. I'm aware of the stories that Lennon could be a very mean guy in person, and I've personally saw it myself in my brief encounter with the man in the 70's. Kaylan's book looks like an interesting read, though. Fred, if I recall your story accurately, didn't John ask the fans nicely to please not follow him and then your friend followed him anyway, so John cursed him out? If so, I can understand that. I believe you have another story where you asked John to sign your book, and he simply said "I don't sign autographs", but nothing nasty. Now, I do not doubt for a second that John Lennon of all people could have his mean moments. And don't forget that I personally witnessed Sir Paul McCartney scream at a female fan from his limo at his hotel, telling her "YOU'RE NOT SUPPOSED TO BE HERE!!!" and then throwing her crystal gift back at her from outside the limo window when the woman handed Linda the gift. Talk about "mean"! There is also 2008 footage of Paul and Nancy being followed by a female with a video camera, and Paul keeps calling her "Fatso" over and over... As for the book -- well, you know how I feel. Hearsay. (I guess our experiences could be considered hearsay as well, but then again we're not writing a book!). PS -- Why not change the thread title to say: "Unflattering look at Lennon & McCartney" in the title?
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Post by OldFred on May 31, 2013 7:38:32 GMT -5
Joe, on the first time I saw Lennon, he and Yoko were basically nice with the fans. It was that one fan who approached him to say hello that he cursed at. I knew in essence the fan was invading John's space, and the guy was very sad on the way his encounter turned out. I tried to cheer him up a little by saying maybe John was focused in something and the guy just approached him at the wrong moment. Reading what Lennon said to the guitarist of the Turtles, putting him down, bought that memory back and I realized that was almost the same reaction that fan had.
The second time I met John I kept in mind what happened to the other fan and only asked for the autograph once, and when he politely refused, I didn't push it. I didn't want what happened to the other guy to happen to me.
And the Zappa story also showed that Lennon could be a little underhanded when it came to taking credit for a song he didn't even write!
I'm not one of those who paint Lennon as 'Saint John'. He was a human being with human flaws like all of us. I've read enough books and seen documentaries on Lennon to get a somewhat accurate picture of what he was like behind the scenes. Overall, I think he was basically a nice guy, but at the same time, could be very mean and extremely arrogant.
There's a story Barry Gibb of the Bee Gees tells about being introduced to Lennon at the Speakeasy club in London, and Lennon was sitting in a chair with his back to Barry and said hello,not even giving him the courtesy of turning around. Barry laughs it off saying, "Well, I at least met the back of John Lennon's head!".
I give Kalyan the benefit of the doubt because he was close enough in that circle of Rock to have seen everything. And I don't give Paul a pass either, I know enough of the stories about him too. If Steve or Johnny want to change the title of my post, I'm ok with it.
Too many of my entertainment heros have disappointed me enough that I'm not the hero worshipping naive person I used to be. I've met enough of them in my life who have been genuinely nice, but I've learn to keep enough of a distance from them so as not to affect my admiration for their music and art.
I'm still a big fan of Lennon, the Beatles and others whose work I love. But, at the same time, I'm no longer casting a blind eye on their faults and foibles either.
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Post by Joe Karlosi on May 31, 2013 8:25:12 GMT -5
Joe, on the first time I saw Lennon, he and Yoko were basically nice with the fans. It was that one fan who approached him to say hello that he cursed at. I knew in essence the fan was invading John's space, and the guy was very sad on the way his encounter turned out. I tried to cheer him up a little by saying maybe John was focused in something and the guy just approached him at the wrong moment. Reading what Lennon said to the guitarist of the Turtles, putting him down, bought that memory back and I realized that was almost the same reaction that fan had. But Fred, here you leave out the key point of the whole story -- that being that you've told us that John asked the fans to please not follow him, but your friend just had to take a chance, and followed John anyway. This is a crucial point to John's cursing him out, don't you think? I'm not denying this at all. I don't paint John as "Saint John" either; he was very real and human with flaws, and that's why I like him. Still, we know of fans who met John on a good day and he was nice to them -- hell, John was even very cordial to the man who wound up killing him, when he signed his DOUBLE FANTASY album and even asked "is that all, do you want anything else"? (!) Can't you change it yourself? After all, if I understand your claims here, you are saying this Turtles book also says negative stuff about Paul McCartney too, yes? What, are you just trying to trounce John? Part of not casting a blind eye is facing the truth and not trying to avoid them for fear of tarnishing your glowing image of them, too. I just hope you're not implying that I am denying their humanity (not saying you are, but...) . Paul was a right sonofabitch and co#k-teaser to his fans the few times I tried to meet him, but I don't allow that to change my admiration for his music. Ringo also behaved like an ass the one time he brushed past some of us, but I still like his music. I know you've been chummy with your Monkees, and I know we've got at least one nice story here about someone meeting Davy Jones, I believe. However, I heard some horror stories too about Davy. One of them was from a fan who said Davy was really nasty when the fan asked for a photo, so Jones grabbed the camera, pointed it angrily at his own face, snapped the photo, and shoved the camera at the fan, yelling "HERE!!" . Now, I just hope you can still enjoy Davy singing I WANNA BE FREE.
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Post by Joe Karlosi on May 31, 2013 8:51:22 GMT -5
This is related to the Turtles book review and may have already been seen by folks on the board and the story known about what really occurred when John & Yoko jammed with Zappa at the Filmore East. For one thing, this is just Frank Zappa's version of "what really happened". There are often two sides to every story (or three, as the saying goes). Second, even if this is true, who gives a crap? Wow, John Lennon altered a performance of a garbage song like "Scumbag"... like this hasn't occurred millions of times in the history of "live releases" on records, with artists trying to 'tweak' it to suit themselves! Fred, you seem so forthcoming with reports to bash John Lennon, but you get so defensive when anyone says one slight thing against your Monkees...
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Post by Joe Karlosi on May 31, 2013 9:45:03 GMT -5
Thanks, OldFred, for fixing the thread title. I believe that is very fair.
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Post by John S. Damm on May 31, 2013 10:02:01 GMT -5
Howard Kaylan has the musical creds and experiences where I take his accounts much more seriously than those of ex-lovers, drivers, assistants. In fact, there is some professional risk to Kaylan to relate negative anecdotes on superstars like John and Paul. It means for one that he will never work with Paul even if the chance presents itself and others musical people may shun him to appease Paul or Yoko. I did go "Aha!" when you mentioned Paul too but I don't have a problem with your title or placement Fred as it sounds like he had more encounters with John than Paul. John was the Beatle I most wanted to meet from the age of 14 through 18(1980) but even then I realized if I got close to him physically I'd have to be very respectful and accept a no on an autograph request. I suppose there would be some value in getting yelled at by John Lennon as it might be profanely humorous in hindsight. If I run into Paul or Ringo in Chicago or Boston(both of which I have family and visit) so be it and I will say something if I find I am in an elevator with either or straddled next to one at the urinals(that would be a trip) but I am not going out of my way to meet either. I have no desire to pursue an autograph or say their music influenced me or whatever. If I bump into one fine, if not that's okay too. If I am next to Paul at the urinals, and he is the typical 70 something year old man, I'll have plenty of time to lay out The JSD Postulate directly to Paul but I will be very gentle as to my treatment of BOTR.
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Post by John S. Damm on May 31, 2013 10:05:04 GMT -5
Fred, I started my post this morning but the real world crept in and I just posted it. I see you changed the title(or someone did) but as I stated above, the original was okay but this one's good too.
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Post by Joe Karlosi on May 31, 2013 10:11:27 GMT -5
John was the Beatle I most wanted to meet from the age of 14 through 18(1980) but even then I realized if I got close to him physically I'd have to be very respectful and accept a no on an autograph request. Same here. Sadly, I have always feared a "no" or negative reaction from ALL FOUR EX-BEATLES! Truth is, all four of them could be assholes. I knew a girl who asked George for an autograph in New York, and he said: "Oh, get a job". I heard another story where George was asked for an autograph and he signed it "Rod Stewart". And we know that John had his mean streaks, and Ringo can also be a real grump. Paul can be tricky -- Your best chance is approaching Paul with a TV special movie camera right on him and he has to act personable
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Post by OldFred on May 31, 2013 10:17:59 GMT -5
Fred, I started my post this morning but the real world crept in and I just posted it. I see you changed the title(or someone did) but as I stated above, the original was okay but this one's good too. I changed it Johnny to keep the peace. I agree that Kaylan has more creds as he is a music industry insider and has seen it all. I think this book will be of interest to those who are Turles fans and want to get a bit of the history of the band as well as their encounters with other artists in the Music field. The story of the way Lennon put down the Turtles' guitarist that it caused the guy to get so disillusioned being berated by a man he considered his hero that he quit the business saddens me. That John could have been so cruel is upsetting, and this is not the only story of Lennon's cruelty. I posted the review of the book for those who might be interested in it and the Lennon story just happened to be one of many stories in the book. It is disappointing to read and hear negative things about people that you admired, especially if there is a possible kernel of truth. But at the same time, it shows that they also are/were human with faults like the rest of us.
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Post by Joe Karlosi on May 31, 2013 10:29:20 GMT -5
I changed it Johnny to keep the peace. Much appreciated, but you did, after all, mention Paul McCartney too in your opening description. Had you only mentioned John, I don't think anyone would have been any the wiser. So since you mentioned Paul as part of Kaylan's book -- where is the unflattering story on Paul? Too bad the guitarist did not have a thicker skin. I think it's a shitty thing for Lennon to have done,. but jeez -- if the guitarist quit the business based on that comment, that is his own problem! Lennon also consistently put himself down too -- said he wasn't technically a very good guitarist himself, and was always criticizing his own singing voice, and putting reverb and effects on it. Frankly, I would rather have honesty instead of someone just being PC and telling a guy what he really wants to hear, even if he doesn't believe it. Absolutely. And in Lennon's case, the beauty of it is that the man was always fairly candid. There are not many "secret unflattering stories about john Lennon" to shock people, seriously.
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Post by mikev on May 31, 2013 10:32:12 GMT -5
This is related to the Turtles book review and may have already been seen by folks on the board and the story known about what really occurred when John & Yoko jammed with Zappa at the Filmore East. For one thing, this is just Frank Zappa's version of "what really happened". There are often two sides to every story (or three, as the saying goes). Second, even if this is true, who gives a crap? Wow, John Lennon altered a performance of a garbage song like "Scumbag"... like this hasn't occurred millions of times in the history of "live releases" on records, with artists trying to 'tweak' it to suit themselves! Fred, you seem so forthcoming with reports to bash John Lennon, but you get so defensive when anyone says one slight thing against your Monkees... Joe, I've seen from the mouth of Zappa that Filmore story and I'm pretty certain is mostly accurate. But...hey if there were no legal actions, then as far as I'm concerned it is between Zappa and Lennon. But on the Zappa version you can clearly hear Flo and Eddie.
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Post by Joe Karlosi on May 31, 2013 10:36:38 GMT -5
Joe, I've seen from the mouth of Zappa that Filmore story and I'm pretty certain is mostly accurate. Mike, I don't doubt that Zappa truly said this... after all, it's his voice on the link clip. What I said was, it's just HIS side of the story. I wonder what John and Yoko's side of it is? Like I said, so what if the Lennons tweaked the performances to suit their own album? Paul brought up his own bass on the new mix of ROCKSHOW from what I've heard. Happens all the time with live albums...
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Post by John S. Damm on May 31, 2013 10:45:28 GMT -5
Agreed Fred. I was the biggest Beatles' worshipping person you could imagine as a youth. Once Paul and Linda were on the cover of one of those Sunday newspaper magazines going on what a great mother Linda was. It was over-the-top as Linda was a good mother but no one is perfect in said role. This was in the latter 1970's, I am guessing 1977 or 1978 but I really hurt my own mother's feelings by gushing how awesome Linda was as a mother and maybe my mom could be more like her. To make things worse, this was around Mother's Day because why else would they be going on about Linda as this saintly mother. Yeah, I really said that to my mom who wasn't rich, didn't have paid help and worked full-time to supplement the family income, she instilled rules and values in us (believe it or not), didn't smoke dope in front of us(or anywhere else!) and did not leave us with strangers to go half-way around the world to bag the world's biggest rock star. In hindsight that last thing might have been cool had she done so! Her stoic but clearly hurt response was my highwater mark of Beatles and Beatles related persons hero worship. I got much more grounded, even jaded, as I saw more and more of the clay feet. But yeah, they are human like us and make mistakes and that's why I appreciate them even more. They are not perfect but still made incredible music(the four Beatles, not their spouses).
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Post by Joe Karlosi on May 31, 2013 10:49:05 GMT -5
OK, so what I wanna know is -- who gets to write a book airing the dirty laundry on Kaylan (who I never even heard of until today)? The point being, nobody is perfect, so give us a break.
I wonder how Fred would feel if Kaylan had some ugly tales to tell about Peter Tork. Would we even have heard about this book? Maybe from someone else....
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Post by OldFred on May 31, 2013 11:11:50 GMT -5
I wonder how Fred would feel if Kaylan had some ugly tales to tell about Peter Tork. Would we even have heard about this book? Maybe from someone else.... Believe me, Joe. When it comes to the Monkees, I KNOW where the bodies are buried!
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Post by mikev on May 31, 2013 11:21:48 GMT -5
Joe, I've seen from the mouth of Zappa that Filmore story and I'm pretty certain is mostly accurate. Mike, I don't doubt that Zappa truly said this... after all, it's his voice on the link clip. What I said was, it's just HIS side of the story. I wonder what John and Yoko's side of it is? Like I said, so what if the Lennons tweaked the performances to suit their own album? Paul brought up his own bass on the new mix of ROCKSHOW from what I've heard. Happens all the time with live albums... I didn't realize that was the same audio clip-I thought that was Kaylan (geez-you never heard of him??). Recommend you watch the movie "My Dinner with Jimi". Wigs are a little fake, but I really enjoyed it, and there was a lot of Beatle stuff in there. And just to set you straight- Mark Vollman was the fat guy with the frizz- looked like the Monkees' Mr. Schneider with an afro! As for Paul- I have much less of a problem with him raising his original bass mix, than him redoing it in a studio!!! That is the beauty of tracking live music.
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Post by Joe Karlosi on May 31, 2013 11:24:26 GMT -5
Kaylan (geez-you never heard of him??). Nope. Only heard of Flo and Eddie (and only after they became DJs in New York!) The Beatles re-recorded music for the 1965 Shea Stadium film in the studio.
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Post by OldFred on May 31, 2013 12:15:41 GMT -5
Regarding the Lennon/Zappa tracks, all one has to do is to compare the Lennon versions with the Zappa versions, Zappa's has the Flo & Eddie vocals in the mix while Lennon's mixed them out. Also, keep in mind that because of legalities with the Zappa Estate, the cuts with Zappa were left off the 2005 edition of STINYC. P.S.: Ever noticed that the first letters of that album are almost an acronym for the word 'stink'? I like pointing that out!
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Post by Joe Karlosi on May 31, 2013 12:21:33 GMT -5
Regarding the Lennon/Zappa tracks, all one has to do is to compare the Lennon versions with the Zappa versions, Zappa's has the Flo & Eddie vocals in the mix while Lennon's mixed them out. Also, keep in mind that because of legalities with the Zappa Estate, the cuts with Zappa were left off the 2005 edition of STINYC. Thank God. Good riddance, as far as I'm concerned. All I've ever listened to was COLD TURKEY and WELL from that performance anyway. A couple of times in my life I put on a few moments of SCUMBAG and after hearing the repetitious shouts of "Scumbag, Scumbag!" I turned it off. Frank Zappa (well, his Estate now) ought to be grateful that he had something to do with John Lennon; it is not necessary for Lennon to have been briefly affiliated with Zappa.
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Post by OldFred on May 31, 2013 13:44:34 GMT -5
Well, there's a pesky little thing called 'copyrights'. Frank Zappa was already a well known and respected artist in the music industry before John&Yoko came along to jam with him and the Mothers at the Filmore East that night. And I can understand Zappa getting miffed by John&Yoko taking credit for a song he wrote. To give J&Y the benefit of the doubt, this probably had more to do with the involvement of Allan Klein, and perhaps the possibility of John being confused that a previously written and performed song MAY have been an original piece created by him, Yoko and Frank during a jam session. So understandably, Zappa had every right to take umbrage with someone else, no matter how big a name he was, taking credit for something he wrote.
The best analogy I can give is the case of Buddy Holly and his producer/manager Norman Petty. Before Petty came on the scene, Buddy Holly and the Crickets recorded an earlier version of his song 'That'll Be The Day' on another label that he co-wrote with drummer Jerry Allison, that didn't do very well. When Buddy signed with Norman Petty, who at the time was a very well known name in the music industry, they recorded 'That'll Be The Day' again which became Holly's first major hit. The difference this time was that the song writing credits now read 'Holly-Allison-Petty'. Because he was a big name then, Petty explained to Buddy that DJ's would recognize his name and be more partial to giving the record a spin. This became a bone of contention much later when it was discovered that Norman was profiting in Buddy's song writing royalties. Petty may not have been the record business shark that Klein was, but he pretty much came out of the same pond.
So, yes, I can understand why Zappa was a little bit piqued about a little finagling with the songwriting credits.
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Post by Joe Karlosi on May 31, 2013 14:34:43 GMT -5
OK, Fred, you win - John Lennon was a total 'Scumbag' and The Monkees can never do any wrong.
Now, would you mind refreshing memories on the part of your old in-person Lennon story which you left out earlier? You know, when Lennon asked the fans not to follow him but the other guy violated his wishes and followed him anyway, resulting in John cursing him out? I recall you telling us this part of the story numerous times in the past, or do I have it wrong? Because I can't imagine why you would leave out this part of the tale that could at least paint John in a gentler light on this incident.
I'd also like to take another shot at asking you again ... what is the unflattering Paul story here? You mentioned that the book also had an unflattering story about Paul.
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Post by Joe Karlosi on May 31, 2013 14:38:29 GMT -5
STINYC. P.S.: Ever noticed that the first letters of that album are almost an acronym for the word 'stink'? I like pointing that out! Probably also why you take such delight in your Zappa story. Want to talk about some stinky Monkees tracks and non-albums?
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Post by John S. Damm on May 31, 2013 15:44:31 GMT -5
The neat thing is that for every bad story we hear of John, Paul, George and Ringo, a really nice story pops up for each guy! We know John could be in fantastic moods and sign autographs and the definitive evidence is that he signed his assassin's album! May that undeserving scum rot in Hell! Sorry but I get so angry thinking of the JoeK's, the OldFred's and others who tried and couldn't get John's autograph and then that monster gets an album signed and dated with the year 1980! We know Paul can be a sweetheart but no kidding JoeK, there better be press cameras around or Paul might not be so nice. That is not always true though, I just came across photos of Paul and these college age guys when Paul and Nancy took a roadtrip across the U.S. a few years ago. These young guys are with a smiling Paul at some interstate gas station! We know Ringo can sometimes sign autographs though not often on the street. My question, does anyone here know of an anecdote where George Harrison was nice and signed autographs on the street or in public? Although John has been gone since 1980, I bet there are still less George Harrison encounters by fans than there was with John , even though John was on this Earth much shorter than Hari. I would love to hear of positive fan encounters with George post-Beatles.
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Jun 1, 2013 6:29:20 GMT -5
We know Paul can be a sweetheart but no kidding JoeK, there better be press cameras around or Paul might not be so nice. That is not always true though, I just came across photos of Paul and these college age guys when Paul and Nancy took a roadtrip across the U.S. a few years ago. These young guys are with a smiling Paul at some interstate gas station! Yes, I saw that too, and it was really cool and nice of Paul. The thing that infuriates me, though, is stories like these always seem to occur for the "Non-Beatle-Diehards". Why couldn't you, me, or RTP be as lucky to be in the right place at the right time and stumble into Paul?? Here we have some kids who probably don't even own any solo Paul albums, maybe they don't even have any Beatles albums or perhaps have "The Blue Album" on their Ipods.... and they get to have a photo taken with Paul McCartney!! It's really unfair, I tell ya.
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Post by sayne on Jun 1, 2013 10:47:41 GMT -5
. . . Kaylan (who I never even heard of until today) . . . I thought vinyl geeks fancied themselves as rock experts. Kaylan isn't even really that obscure. Not like, say, Jim Morrison. Google "Morrison." I think you will find him to be fairly important in rock history.
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Jun 1, 2013 13:17:07 GMT -5
I thought vinyl geeks fancied themselves as rock experts. Kaylan isn't even really that obscure. I only started collecting vinyl again in late 2011. And no, I don't consider myself an 'expert' on Rock. I don't even consider myself as much of an expert on The Beatles, compared to some other people.
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Post by sayne on Jun 1, 2013 16:29:20 GMT -5
I thought vinyl geeks fancied themselves as rock experts. Kaylan isn't even really that obscure. I only started collecting vinyl again in late 2011. And no, I don't consider myself an 'expert' on Rock. I don't even consider myself as much of an expert on The Beatles, compared to some other people. Have you seen the movie High Fidelity? If not, check it out. Has funny, but loving jabs at us record snobs.
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Jun 2, 2013 5:06:23 GMT -5
Have you seen the movie High Fidelity? If not, check it out. Has funny, but loving jabs at us record snobs. Yes, I saw HIGH FIDELITY when it was in the theaters, but at that time I was not at all into vinyl. Since I've gotten back into it I did see a really great "deleted scene" where John Cusack goes to the home of Beverly D'Angelo to buy her two-timing husband's record collection. This was a good clip and I'm sorry it was ousted from the film. Have you seen it?
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