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Post by Panther on Oct 18, 2014 0:53:10 GMT -5
As I've said on here on the recent thread about it, I'm a big fan of Mark Lewisohn's Tune In book.
I wonder what effect this book will have on Beatles' bios, looking into the future. There was a fairly slow rate of Beatles biographies in the 1970s -- more to do with analysis of the music -- and then with John's murder and Philip Norman's Shout!, there began a series of biographies (and of course many more focusing on John). The Beatle-book industry in general seemed to get another shot in the arm with the whole Anthology kerfuffle, Live at the BBC, and the general return of the Beatles (and Paul) to pre-eminence in the charts at that time. The books and bios have pretty much continued unabated since then.
But I think general biographies of The Beatles' early and fame-years (1957 to 1970) are going to slow down henceforth, especially after Lewisohn's 2nd volume appears (if it does). I wouldn't go as far as to say that his is the definitive word on the subject, but it's impossible to imagine, given the passage of time, the mortality of the remaining Beatles and people in their inner-circle, and the access given to Lewisohn over the years (which no other writer has had), anyone surpassing his research and historical accuracy, nor his attention to detail.
Of course, the average new fan of The Beatles (Junior High School students, say) do not want to read a hefty tome like Tune In, so shorter, more conventional bios will continue to be widely read (Mark Spitz's was a particularly good one, I thought). But it will be intimidating for anyone to try to follow Lewisohn's biographical stuff.
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Post by vectisfabber on Oct 18, 2014 7:47:51 GMT -5
I suspect you will get mainly 3 types of books:
1. Entry-level biogs: decent enough, good for someone who wants a broad overview without massive detail, and not giving you anything you don't get in more detail in one of the bigger biographies;
2. Cheap and cheerful cash-ins: the sort of thing you find remaindered or for supermarket checkouts. May very well be attractively presented, but the text will be shoddy, cobbled together from poor internet pages;
3. Topic-specific books. I'm thinking things like books I've seen on Apple, artefacts, equipment etc.
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Post by winstonoboogie on Oct 18, 2014 13:14:50 GMT -5
I agree with vectis. I think that Lewisohn's books should become the definitive works for the reasons panther listed. I was quite impressed with Volume 1 myself.
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Post by Steve Marinucci on Oct 18, 2014 15:26:09 GMT -5
I'm going to go out on a limb and say while Lewisohn's books break new ground, there is still more to come. But ... since Apple and the Beatles are being very protective about anything, it won't be soon. I just hope the other Lewisohn books are published relatively soon.
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Post by Panther on Oct 18, 2014 20:35:16 GMT -5
Lewisohn's volume 2 (which I suspect will be called 'Tune Up') is supposedly due in 2020 (Vol. 3 I expect will be 'Tune Down').
So, there's a 5-6 year window for publishers to get biographical Beatles' stuff out...
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lowbasso
A Hard Day's Knight
Posts: 2,776
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Post by lowbasso on Oct 19, 2014 1:33:47 GMT -5
Apple risks losing sales on future Beatles projects, such as upgraded concert films (Shea, Rooftop, etc.), or any remaining bootleg material because the majority of people who want these products are first, or early second generation fans, and they are now firmly in their 70's, or at best entering their 60's. Hence, their numbers will continue to drop off as the inevitable happens and we/they die off in greater numbers every succeeding year. The music catalogue of recordings will always continue to sell because of the quality of the music, and they may from time to time be upgraded as technology improves, which will spur new sales, though in low numbers much like classical music recordings now sell. The two movies, AHDN & Help, will always be visual reference classics of the band at the height of their fame, so they will survive, albeit at lower sales numbers. But the rest of the material mentioned above will fall off in interest for the general public of subsequent generations that will never have known the band nor any individual members work, especially when Paul & Ringo quit touring; which can't be all that far off in the future now.
So Apple better get off their butts and convince Paul & Ringo, and the other's estates to get any remaining archival material available, out on to the market asap.
Even the Lewisohn books which, if they are released when they say they will be; 6 years on out to more than 10 years on out for the final volume, risk losing many sales to first generation fans who won't live that long, which is sad given these folks are the ones to get the most out of reading them, since they lived through the times discussed in the books.
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Post by mikev on Oct 19, 2014 2:15:25 GMT -5
Apple risks losing sales on future Beatles projects, such as upgraded concert films (Shea, Rooftop, etc.), or any remaining bootleg material because the majority of people who want these products are first, or early second generation fans, and they are now firmly in their 70's, or at best entering their 60's. Hence, their numbers will continue to drop off as the inevitable happens and we/they die off in greater numbers every succeeding year. The music catalogue of recordings will always continue to sell because of the quality of the music, and they may from time to time be upgraded as technology improves, which will spur new sales, though in low numbers much like classical music recordings now sell. The two movies, AHDN & Help, will always be visual reference classics of the band at the height of their fame, so they will survive, albeit at lower sales numbers. But the rest of the material mentioned above will fall off in interest for the general public of subsequent generations that will never have known the band nor any individual members work, especially when Paul & Ringo quit touring; which can't be all that far off in the future now. So Apple better get off their butts and convince Paul & Ringo, and the other's estates to get any remaining archival material available, out on to the market asap. Even the Lewisohn books which, if they are released when they say they will be; 6 years on out to more than 10 years on out for the final volume, risk losing many sales to first generation fans who won't live that long, which is sad given these folks are the ones to get the most out of reading them, since they lived through the times discussed in the books. Someone on the Hoffman board that says he knows McCartney said that "off the record" Paul said Yoko is holding back Let it Be. Dhani just said to Rolling Stone that this will be it for George product for sometime, though he conceeded that there is a wealth of unreleased material. They only care to a point. They are all gazilionaires..they don't need the money. The record companies are putting out what they are allowed to. They need the money. If somehow, a pristine copy of Let it Be, or Barrett type of new material slipped out on the bootleg market, you can bet that Alpha Omega would reoccur and they'll put it out. I'm not sure though that we'll ever see the electric reunion from Anthology of Paul, George, Ringo and Jeff Lynne jamming to I Saw Her Standing There, Sgt. Pepper, Love Me Do and Besame Mucho among other gems. I would guess the stuff was as rough as Twickenham jams.
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Oct 19, 2014 7:30:31 GMT -5
Someone on the Hoffman board that says he knows McCartney said that "off the record" Paul said Yoko is holding back Let it Be. I'd also heard from someone supposedly "in the know" that George on his deathbed expressed not wanting LET IT BE released. Sounds odd to me, I don't know how true that is. Thanks for nothing, Dhani and Olivia.
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Oct 19, 2014 7:40:29 GMT -5
Apple risks losing sales on future Beatles projects, such as upgraded concert films (Shea, Rooftop, etc.), or any remaining bootleg material because the majority of people who want these products are first, or early second generation fans, and they are now firmly in their 70's, or at best entering their 60's. Hence, their numbers will continue to drop off as the inevitable happens and we/they die off in greater numbers every succeeding year. What's flawed with this is that Elvis music rarities keep getting released by RCA, and always have... and of course the original fans of Elvis are even older. And there are not nearly as many "new generations" of Presley fans as there are Beatles fans. Same thing with Frank Sinatra... all his albums are getting re-released on brand new 180 gram vinyl records, and there are excited threads about this at the Hoffman music forums. This notion that "things are getting older, so the sales potential is gone, or going" is greatly exaggerated. And there are always new young fans -- I always see teenagers without fail heading to the BEATLES section first thing, at my used records store... I even see teenagers there who regularly go into the shop to search through the special SINATRA section! Sorry, lowbasso, but I get weary of hearing the same types of "selling" claims... I suppose I'm burnt out on it also from people on my horror movie boards who are always doing armchair philosophy on why old Universal Monsters movies "will no longer sell". What I object to in all these cases is not that the audience is shrinking somewhat -- I admit it is -- however, the studios/record companies involved still have always managed to put stuff out regardless, so I think they always will. The Beatles will always be big business to some degree, even if it lessens. Even thought the Universal Monsters movies are way back in the 1930s and 1940s, Univeral Video has always put them out and re-re-re-re-mastered and repackaged them, on BETA, VHS, Laderdisc, VHS, and Blu-ray. With Apple, I think they have always just been unnecessarily stingy or cautious, for some reason.
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Post by Panther on Oct 19, 2014 9:03:28 GMT -5
It is interesting to speculate on what happens to enormous Beatle sales-figures once the two (three, with Pete) remaining Beatles and the band's first-generation fans are all deceased (say, in about 25 years). Certainly in 25 years few people will be purchasing 'albums' as such -- not that they are now -- but, just as certainly, The Beatles will remain a major pop-culture phenomenon and a high musical standard for umpteen generations to come.
I'm sure the Beatles' recordings and hit songs are in no danger at all of losing any circulation or cultural weight in the future, but I do sort-of agree with Lowbasso that things like archival releases are going to reach no audience beyond these next twenty years or so.
That's why I'm glad Lewisohn decided to do these three biographies. His is the (so far) only real scholarly biographical work on The Beatles as history, and if he wasn't doing it now and over the next ten years, the popular audience for such a work is going to start disappearing.
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Post by Steve Marinucci on Oct 19, 2014 11:29:55 GMT -5
Someone on the Hoffman board that says he knows McCartney said that "off the record" Paul said Yoko is holding back Let it Be. I'd also heard from someone supposedly "in the know" that George on his deathbed expressed not wanting LET IT BE released. Sounds odd to me, I don't know how true that is. That's been the prevailing opinion for some time. I'd believe that before I'd believe the Yoko thing. George had more difficulty in that film than John did. Little reason why Yoko wouldn't want it out, unless it was because of how she came across. But I think she's much more sensitive about his image.
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Oct 20, 2014 7:34:03 GMT -5
I'd also heard from someone supposedly "in the know" that George on his deathbed expressed not wanting LET IT BE released. Sounds odd to me, I don't know how true that is. That's been the prevailing opinion for some time. I'd believe that before I'd believe the Yoko thing. George had more difficulty in that film than John did. Little reason why Yoko wouldn't want it out, unless it was because of how she came across. But I think she's much more sensitive about his image. I hope that's not true, because I expect Dhani to be here for a long time, and I don't want him indefinitely vetoing the release of LET IT BE, if Harrison's Estate always has a say in the matter. I would like to think that at George's last breath he had other things on his mind besides LET IT BE! I also feel George comes off well in the film... after all, he does speak up and tell Paul a thing or two. I do recall an audio clip of George discussing LIB from the early '70s where he said (paraphrasing): "Personally, I can't stand seeing it... but for those who want to see our warts, it's good".
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Post by mikev on Oct 20, 2014 7:42:10 GMT -5
That's been the prevailing opinion for some time. I'd believe that before I'd believe the Yoko thing. George had more difficulty in that film than John did. Little reason why Yoko wouldn't want it out, unless it was because of how she came across. But I think she's much more sensitive about his image. I hope that's not true, because I expect Dhani to be here for a long time, and I don't want him indefinitely vetoing the release of LET IT BE, if Harrison's Estate always has a say in the matter. I would like to think that at George's last breath he had other things on his mind besides LET IT BE! I also feel George comes off well in the film... after all, he does speak up and tell Paul a thing or two. I do recall an audio clip of George discussing LIB from the early '70s where he said (paraphrasing): "Personally, I can't stand seeing it... but for those who want to see our warts, it's good". I've said it a million times here...I will be fine if the "movie" never sees the light of day, but why not release the live performances in their full glory? It is beyond me that they don't put it out in some form. Also, George had approved of Naked...definitely a Paul led project. What difference does it make to show the corresponding crisp live film footage? George also allowed for the "fight" to be shown on Anthology. As the old lady said in the roof-top sequence "it just doesn't make any sense!"
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Post by John S. Damm on Oct 20, 2014 9:42:16 GMT -5
Do we know if Volume III of Lewisohn intends to cover the solo years up to the point he publishes that third volume?
If not then the solo years will continue to be fair game.
Yeah, I don't know how anyone could compete from here on out with Lewisohn as to a thorough telling of the story. Yet, I agree with those who say more Beatles books will come of various quality. And Lewisohn's Three Volume Series could later get broken down into shorter books based on specific chapters or periods after all three volumes are finally released.
That happened to Shelby Foote's rich(and detailed) three volume series called The Civil War: A Narrative as Chapters on Gettysburg and Shiloh, among others, became individual, shorter books later on and were nice things for people who were interested in those battles but didn't have time for the thousands of pages of all three volumes.
We are not done with new Beatles books although no one will be able to duplicate Mr. Lewisohn's almost rabid research where he has all but dedicated his life to the study of The Beatles.
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Post by mikev on Oct 20, 2014 12:00:27 GMT -5
Do we know if Volume III of Lewisohn intends to cover the solo years up to the point he publishes that third volume? If not then the solo years will continue to be fair game. Yeah, I don't know how anyone could compete from here on out with Lewisohn as to a thorough telling of the story. Yet, I agree with those who say more Beatles books will come of various quality. And Lewisohn's Three Volume Series could later get broken down into shorter books based on specific chapters or periods after all three volumes are finally released. That happened to Shelby Foote's rich(and detailed) three volume series called The Civil War: A Narrative as Chapters on Gettysburg and Shiloh, among others, became individual, shorter books later on and were nice things for people who were interested in those battles but didn't have time for the thousands of pages of all three volumes. We are not done with new Beatles books although no one will be able to duplicate Mr. Lewisohn's almost rabid research where he has all but dedicated his life to the study of The Beatles. Maybe if he lives to be 173...
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Post by John S. Damm on Oct 20, 2014 15:43:13 GMT -5
LOL!
I don't know how Lewisohn will avoid the phenomenon of every single Beatles' history book starting with Hunter Davies(who admittedly released his book when the band was still a band) where 70% of the book chronicles from the the childhoods of the Beatles(particularly John's) up to the point of the U.S. Invasion and then the remaining 30% is the rest of the band's history to the break-up all crammed in much less writing.
And research should be easier in the latter years as the Beatles were under a microscope and their daily activities chronicled to death.
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Post by joeyself on Oct 20, 2014 15:55:45 GMT -5
One way Mark will avoid the errors in other books is to simply not rely upon them unless the principals can't be interviewed and/or the information therein confirmed by some other means.
To Panther's original point, I suspect those that follow TUNE IN and the following volumes will both draw on it heavily while at the same time, try to reveal something new, even if questionable. But time will tell...
JcS
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2014 5:41:48 GMT -5
I'd also heard from someone supposedly "in the know" that George on his deathbed expressed not wanting LET IT BE released. Sounds odd to me, I don't know how true that is. That's been the prevailing opinion for some time. I'd believe that before I'd believe the Yoko thing. George had more difficulty in that film than John did. Little reason why Yoko wouldn't want it out, unless it was because of how she came across. But I think she's much more sensitive about his image. Maybe it's as simple as George, on his death bed, knew Paul wanted to release an updated Let It Be movie, so, being the great Paul fan that he was (n't) suggested strongly that it wasn't updated and released...
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Post by mikev on Oct 24, 2014 11:59:37 GMT -5
That's been the prevailing opinion for some time. I'd believe that before I'd believe the Yoko thing. George had more difficulty in that film than John did. Little reason why Yoko wouldn't want it out, unless it was because of how she came across. But I think she's much more sensitive about his image. Maybe it's as simple as George, on his death bed, knew Paul wanted to release an updated Let It Be movie, so, being the great Paul fan that he was (n't) suggested strongly that it wasn't updated and released... From Paul's own house to boot huh?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2014 23:53:36 GMT -5
Maybe it's as simple as George, on his death bed, knew Paul wanted to release an updated Let It Be movie, so, being the great Paul fan that he was (n't) suggested strongly that it wasn't updated and released... From Paul's own house to boot huh? Yes it was in Paul's house of death, however, does that moment of kindness undo the relationship Paul had with George or how George felt about it. He may have told Paul one thing as he was running out of life, BUT, he may have left different instructions for Dhani and Olivia when he was more lucid.
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Post by mikev on Oct 25, 2014 14:56:31 GMT -5
From Paul's own house to boot huh? Yes it was in Paul's house of death, however, does that moment of kindness undo the relationship Paul had with George or how George felt about it. He may have told Paul one thing as he was running out of life, BUT, he may have left different instructions for Dhani and Olivia when he was more lucid. well I was only kidding around, but if that was really the most important thing George had to say on his death bed, then that is a sad thing on many levels.
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Post by mikev on Oct 25, 2014 14:56:46 GMT -5
really, to just release performance footage is beyond me why they wouldn't. It is very good stuff.
The movie is grainy crap.
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Post by stavros on Oct 25, 2014 17:55:57 GMT -5
I dare say the Beatles, because of their historical, cultural impact will generate interest in whatever form of media the future generates.
Whilst vinyl, CD, DVD/Blu-Ray and printed media all still exist in this present day, the fact is that we already have seen these products merge into a digital hybrid of them all as well. This will only continue as we move away from this age of owning physical media. There will probably be a point in the future where the break-up of the Beatles is simply noted as a historical point. The solo recordings slowly become accepted ,as part of a body of work created by the group branching out as individuals as history begins to compact the time lines of the late 20th century.
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The continuing delays to the release of the "Let It Be" movie in any form are rather mystifying. But do they really come from the Harrison Estate?
I think Keith Badman mentioned in his "After the Break Up" book that the movie had been fully restored back in the mid-1990s for a DVD release. The obvious time was a joint release with the LIB Naked CD. Then, before he passed away we had Neil Aspinall (IIRC) stating how it was "still controversial".
It's hardly the most interesting of Beatle films to watch until the rooftop concert because of the way it was edited. John seems somewhat out of it. Ringo plays along with a faint air of boredom. Paul tries to drum up interest but gets frustrated at the lack of application by the others. George, meanwhile is obviously wound up by the fact that he is still considered a junior member within the band.
In fact he even gave an interview about it - used in the "Beatles - Days in Their Lives Radio Series" :
George actually comes out rather well, having the balls to stand up to an overbearing Paul, in what seems a minor disagreement now in the movie. Paul is obviously the driving force and in fairness has the main tracks "Get Back", "Long and Winding Road", "Two of Us" and the title "Let it Be". I can't really see why Ringo finds much controversial there. So is it Yoko holding up the release?
She's obviously now aware that the Paul, George and Ringo found her presence 'irritating' at the time. John's only real new songs are "Don't Let Me Down" and "Dig A Pony" and he looks rather withdrawn until we get to the rooftop gig.
There is still the opportunity to put out a new edit of the "Let it Be" movie in a much happier light. But even that avenue remains closed at present for reasons unknown.
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