|
Post by debjorgo on Jul 29, 2015 17:48:10 GMT -5
And look at all the millions Kincaid lost P Family because he didn't know anything about novelty marketing.
|
|
|
Post by Zander on Jul 30, 2015 0:48:29 GMT -5
They wouldn't even have gotten out of England, let alone Liverpool, if Brian Epstein hadn't gotten them out of the leathers and into smart suits and cleaned up their rougher image to make a much more presentable appeal for a broader and wider audience. If Brian hadn't cleaned them up and reshaped their image, they would never have been able to set a foot on the Ed Sullivan stage, let alone get any kind of record deal. That's complete nonsense. Within a year of The Beatles on Ed Sullivan (that is, 1965), pop groups were out of suits and starting to wear casual clothes. The Beatles would have done the same. Ed Sullivan didn't even know what they looked like when he booked them. Besides which, The Beatles had become the biggest group in Liverpool and were invited to appear on BBC radio to over a million listeners before they ever wore suits.
I realize Davy Jones was a fan of The Beatles, but it's sad that he couldn't face the reality that The Monkees were completely manufactured when The Beatles weren't. That's not right - Epstein took over managing the band in December 1961. Their first BBC Radio was March 1962. I bet pound to a penny that Epstein had them in suits by then and more than likely Epstein will have pushed for a BBC slot rather than them being invited - they weren't a hit group then... linkEDIT: In fact, according to Lewisohn they stopped wearing the suits in February 1962. They wore more suitable attire for the rest of the month wear at the BBC session they wore their new Beno Dorn suits. linkIt was also Epstein who approached the BBC... 1962 - Here We Go
Teenagers Turn was incredibly popular, and the Thursday edition was known as Here We Go. One of Brian Epstein's first acts before even being appointed the Beatles' manager on 24 January 1962 was to secure them a BBC audition for this slot, having completed an Application for an Audition by Variety Department form. Their audition took place on 12 February with producer Peter Philbeam. These auditions were notoriously difficult to pass, with other popular Mersey Beat acts Gerry and the Pacemakers, Billy J Kramer and The Big Three all having failed.
|
|
|
Post by Steve Marinucci on Jul 30, 2015 9:30:07 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by Panther on Jul 30, 2015 9:55:37 GMT -5
That's complete nonsense. Within a year of The Beatles on Ed Sullivan (that is, 1965), pop groups were out of suits and starting to wear casual clothes. The Beatles would have done the same. Ed Sullivan didn't even know what they looked like when he booked them. Besides which, The Beatles had become the biggest group in Liverpool and were invited to appear on BBC radio to over a million listeners before they ever wore suits.
I realize Davy Jones was a fan of The Beatles, but it's sad that he couldn't face the reality that The Monkees were completely manufactured when The Beatles weren't. That's not right - Epstein took over managing the band in December 1961. Their first BBC Radio was March 1962. I bet pound to a penny that Epstein had them in suits by then and more than likely Epstein will have pushed for a BBC slot rather than them being invited - they weren't a hit group then... linkEDIT: In fact, according to Lewisohn they stopped wearing the suits in February 1962. They wore more suitable attire for the rest of the month wear at the BBC session they wore their new Beno Dorn suits. linkIt was also Epstein who approached the BBC... 1962 - Here We Go
Teenagers Turn was incredibly popular, and the Thursday edition was known as Here We Go. One of Brian Epstein's first acts before even being appointed the Beatles' manager on 24 January 1962 was to secure them a BBC audition for this slot, having completed an Application for an Audition by Variety Department form. Their audition took place on 12 February with producer Peter Philbeam. These auditions were notoriously difficult to pass, with other popular Mersey Beat acts Gerry and the Pacemakers, Billy J Kramer and The Big Three all having failed.
Whatever. They maybe had worn the suits once at that time, then 'debuted' them in full at the BBC rehearsal or first broadcast, I forget which. THE POINT is they were the biggest group in Liverpool and were clearly going up before they were famous for wearing suits. Anyway, wearing suits has nothing to do with being "manufactured"; hence, Davy Jones' embarrassingly inept comment.
|
|
|
Post by OldFred on Jul 30, 2015 11:17:48 GMT -5
As I recall from Mark Lewisohn's Tune In book (also required reading alongside the Wrecking Crew book), before Epstein came on the scene, the Beatles were in a rut, shuttling between Liverpool and Hamburg doing gigs. The knew they were stuck and going nowhere, and according to Lewisohn, if Brian hadn't arrived, they might have just shucked everything and quit. When Brian offered to take on managing them, they were at the point of doing anything to move forward, and if that meant cleaning up and putting on suits and getting a better drummer, then that's what they needed to do to succeed.
Whatever you want to call it, marketing or manufacturing a new image, the Beatles did what they had to do to become successful.
|
|
|
Post by Joe Karlosi on Jul 30, 2015 11:34:42 GMT -5
As I recall from Mark Lewisohn's Tune In book (also required reading alongside the Wrecking Crew book), before Epstein came on the scene, the Beatles were in a rut, shuttling between Liverpool and Hamburg doing gigs. The knew they were stuck and going nowhere, and according to Lewisohn, if Brian hadn't arrived, they might have just shucked everything and quit. When Brian offered to take on managing them, they were at the point of doing anything to move forward, and if that meant cleaning up and putting on suits and getting a better drummer, then that's what they needed to do to succeed. Whatever you want to call it, marketing or manufacturing a new image, the Beatles did what they had to do to become successful. Be that as it may, The Beatles still formed their group all on their own, and wrote songs and played their instruments all on their own. Thus, they were never "manufactured". Davy Jones was wrong for saying that, and he clearly said it because he did not like The Monkees getting fitted with that "rep". Of course they did not mind "marketing" themselves as they had to, to add to the appeal. But that's not the same thing. New information also shows that The Beatles actually were signed to Parlophone because of their own song: LIKE DREAMERS DO. Fans of a certain group will always twist whatever they can to give their favorites some advantage. Just as an side here -- the other day I met a diehard fan of The Four Seasons, and he was adamant in telling me that if it wasn't for The Four Seasons, The Beatles would never have made it! His strong convictions for this came because he said one member of the group got The Beatles on Vee Jay records (same label as the early Four Seasons).
|
|
|
Post by debjorgo on Jul 30, 2015 12:50:04 GMT -5
As I recall from Mark Lewisohn's Tune In book (also required reading alongside the Wrecking Crew book), before Epstein came on the scene, the Beatles were in a rut, shuttling between Liverpool and Hamburg doing gigs. The knew they were stuck and going nowhere, and according to Lewisohn, if Brian hadn't arrived, they might have just shucked everything and quit. When Brian offered to take on managing them, they were at the point of doing anything to move forward, and if that meant cleaning up and putting on suits and getting a better drummer, then that's what they needed to do to succeed. Whatever you want to call it, marketing or manufacturing a new image, the Beatles did what they had to do to become successful. Be that as it may, The Beatles still formed their group all on their own, and wrote songs and played their instruments all on their own. Thus, they were never "manufactured". Davy Jones was wrong for saying that, and he clearly said it because he did not like The Monkees getting fitted with that "rep". Of course they did not mind "marketing" themselves as they had to, to add to the appeal. But that's not the same thing. New information also shows that The Beatles actually were signed to Parlophone because of their own song: LIKE DREAMERS DO. Fans of a certain group will always twist whatever they can to give their favorites some advantage. Just as an side here -- the other day I met a diehard fan of The Four Seasons, and he was adamant in telling me that if it wasn't for The Four Seasons, The Beatles would never have made it! His strong convictions for this came because he said one member of the group got The Beatles on Vee Jay records (same label as the early Four Seasons). Didn't Vee Jay release Introducing the Beatles after Capitol picked them up and they were signed with Sullivan, to capitalize on the promotional blitz that was starting up? I know there is about 100 hundred people who say they'd heard of the Beatles from those Vee Jay singles, but I suspect about half of them are just fantasizing. If they hadn't signed with Vee Jay, Meet the Beatles may had been better than it was.
|
|
|
Post by coachbk on Jul 31, 2015 16:03:11 GMT -5
[quote
Fans of a certain group will always twist whatever they can to give their favorites some advantage. Just as an side here -- the other day I met a diehard fan of The Four Seasons, and he was adamant in telling me that if it wasn't for The Four Seasons, The Beatles would never have made it! His strong convictions for this came because he said one member of the group got The Beatles on Vee Jay records (same label as the early Four Seasons). [/quote]Didn't Vee Jay release Introducing the Beatles after Capitol picked them up and they were signed with Sullivan, to capitalize on the promotional blitz that was starting up? I know there is about 100 hundred people who say they'd heard of the Beatles from those Vee Jay singles, but I suspect about half of them are just fantasizing.
If they hadn't signed with Vee Jay, Meet the Beatles may had been better than it was. [/quote]
No the Vee Jay INTRODUCING THE BEATLES album was released in July 1963.
But it didn't sell well and neither did the singles, though there were areas in the US where some of the early Beatles singles did make inroads.
|
|
|
Post by debjorgo on Jul 31, 2015 16:56:20 GMT -5
Fans of a certain group will always twist whatever they can to give their favorites some advantage. Just as an side here -- the other day I met a diehard fan of The Four Seasons, and he was adamant in telling me that if it wasn't for The Four Seasons, The Beatles would never have made it! His strong convictions for this came because he said one member of the group got The Beatles on Vee Jay records (same label as the early Four Seasons). I chickened out before posting the above and checked with Wiki before I did. They disagree with you. Quote from Wikipedia: " Preparations for the LP's release continued in late June and early July 1963, including the manufacturing of masters and metal parts and the printing of 6,000 front covers.[10] But, despite the claims of many older books that Introducing... The Beatles was first released on 22 July 1963, no paper trail exists to suggest that the album was released at any time in 1963."
|
|
|
Post by debjorgo on Aug 1, 2015 15:32:00 GMT -5
Fans of a certain group will always twist whatever they can to give their favorites some advantage. Just as an side here -- the other day I met a diehard fan of The Four Seasons, and he was adamant in telling me that if it wasn't for The Four Seasons, The Beatles would never have made it! His strong convictions for this came because he said one member of the group got The Beatles on Vee Jay records (same label as the early Four Seasons). I chickened out before posting the above and checked with Wiki before I did. They disagree with you. Quote from Wikipedia: " Preparations for the LP's release continued in late June and early July 1963, including the manufacturing of masters and metal parts and the printing of 6,000 front covers.[10] But, despite the claims of many older books that Introducing... The Beatles was first released on 22 July 1963, no paper trail exists to suggest that the album was released at any time in 1963." Wooo, Happy Nat at the Beatles Rarity agrees with wiki. I'd trust his opinion more than wiki. He is a serious collector and has a network of same minded friends who he would verify something like this with before posting on his exhaustive archive pages. www.thebeatlesrarity.com/search-detail/?id=5&type=vinylindex"There is some controversy over the release date of this first issue of the album and many discographies indicate it was released on July 22, 1963 however this has proven to be unlikely in light of later information from the documents brought forth in the legal battle in 1964 between Capitol and Vee Jay and other sources."
|
|
|
Post by OldFred on Aug 2, 2015 14:32:54 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by debjorgo on Aug 2, 2015 15:02:08 GMT -5
Wow, I have those songs mentioned on The Monkees Music Box four disc set. I had no idea that was Neil Young playing guitar.
|
|
|
Post by OldFred on Aug 2, 2015 16:03:41 GMT -5
Wow, I have those songs mentioned on The Monkees Music Box four disc set. I had no idea that was Neil Young playing guitar. There's a lot about the Monkees people don't know about or think they know.
|
|
|
Post by John S. Damm on Aug 2, 2015 21:47:01 GMT -5
And yet they are not in The Rock And Roll Hall Of Fame. In our era of "Give Everyone a Prize, Every Child Is a Winner," I am surprised they aren't in before certain other groups/artists.
|
|
|
Post by Panther on Aug 3, 2015 6:17:46 GMT -5
There's a lot about the Monkees people don't know about or think they know. Here's what I need to know about The Monkees -- they were a TV-network manufactured pop group.
|
|
|
Post by OldFred on Aug 3, 2015 7:41:27 GMT -5
There's a lot about the Monkees people don't know about or think they know. Here's what I need to know about The Monkees -- they were a TV-network manufactured pop group. If that's all you know about them, you don't know very much, do you? Like, their series won an Emmy for best new Comedy. They were long time fiends with all four Beatles, Micky was part of the Hollywood Vampires along with John Lennon, Ringo, Nilsson, Keith Moon, Alice Cooper among others. Mentioned this in an earlier post, but Nesmith is the first major music artist to win a Grammy Award for Music Video. That the Monkees lasted longer as a touring act (nearly 50 years) than as a TV show (two years). And they were friends with folks like Neil Young and Stephan Stills who played on some of their records. Scroll back up to the link I posted earlier, you might just learn something, By Gum!
|
|
|
Post by Joe Karlosi on Aug 3, 2015 13:24:50 GMT -5
And yet they are not in The Rock And Roll Hall Of Fame. In our era of "Give Everyone a Prize, Every Child Is a Winner," I am surprised they aren't in before certain other groups/artists. Agree again. It's shameful that The Monkees have not yet made it to the RNRHOF.. they deserve to be there, for their great hit songs alone. And I really hate that Davy is gone, and so will never get to see the induction even if The Monkees make it. Hopefully this slight will be corrected before we lose Peter, Mike, or Micky.
|
|
|
Post by coachbk on Aug 3, 2015 15:23:42 GMT -5
I chickened out before posting the above and checked with Wiki before I did. They disagree with you. Quote from Wikipedia: " Preparations for the LP's release continued in late June and early July 1963, including the manufacturing of masters and metal parts and the printing of 6,000 front covers.[10] But, despite the claims of many older books that Introducing... The Beatles was first released on 22 July 1963, no paper trail exists to suggest that the album was released at any time in 1963." Wooo, Happy Nat at the Beatles Rarity agrees with wiki. I'd trust his opinion more than wiki. He is a serious collector and has a network of same minded friends who he would verify something like this with before posting on his exhaustive archive pages. www.thebeatlesrarity.com/search-detail/?id=5&type=vinylindex"There is some controversy over the release date of this first issue of the album and many discographies indicate it was released on July 22, 1963 however this has proven to be unlikely in light of later information from the documents brought forth in the legal battle in 1964 between Capitol and Vee Jay and other sources."Interesting as I did get my information straight from an "official" Beatles discography. I hope the next Lewisohn volume will have some details about this!
|
|
|
Post by debjorgo on Aug 3, 2015 18:02:03 GMT -5
Wooo, Happy Nat at the Beatles Rarity agrees with wiki. I'd trust his opinion more than wiki. He is a serious collector and has a network of same minded friends who he would verify something like this with before posting on his exhaustive archive pages. www.thebeatlesrarity.com/search-detail/?id=5&type=vinylindex"There is some controversy over the release date of this first issue of the album and many discographies indicate it was released on July 22, 1963 however this has proven to be unlikely in light of later information from the documents brought forth in the legal battle in 1964 between Capitol and Vee Jay and other sources."Interesting as I did get my information straight from an "official" Beatles discography. I hope the next Lewisohn volume will have some details about this! I know Lewisohn likes the paper trail. See you back here in 2020. We'll see what he says about it.
|
|
|
Post by Panther on Aug 3, 2015 21:28:36 GMT -5
Agree again. It's shameful that The Monkees have not yet made it to the RNRHOF.. they deserve to be there, for their great hit songs alone. And I really hate that Davy is gone, and so will never get to see the induction even if The Monkees make it. Hopefully this slight will be corrected before we lose Peter, Mike, or Micky. What about The Partridge Family? The Archies?
|
|
|
Post by OldFred on Aug 3, 2015 21:50:19 GMT -5
Agree again. It's shameful that The Monkees have not yet made it to the RNRHOF.. they deserve to be there, for their great hit songs alone. And I really hate that Davy is gone, and so will never get to see the induction even if The Monkees make it. Hopefully this slight will be corrected before we lose Peter, Mike, or Micky. What about The Partridge Family? The Archies? I completely agree with you. Our Johnny might hate me for saying this, but the Partridge Family would never, ever get a nomination because they never existed outside the TV show or records. Shirley Jones and David Cassidy have said time and again that there never was a Partridge Family. However, they're sort of technically already in anyway since the Wrecking Crew played on their records too. The same with the Archies. With the exception of Ron Dante who sang lead, Andy Kim and Toni Wine, they were a complete studio creation. However, Ron Dante would have a good shot for induction in the RRHOF as a Grammy Award winning producer for the likes of Barry Manilow, Cher and other major stars, and he's already won a Tony Award as a producer on Broadway. Dante is well respected in the Music industry, he's performed several times with the Paul Shaffer Band on the David Letterman Show, so his chances are actually pretty good. The major difference between those acts and the Monkees is that the Monkees existed beyond the TV show, recording and playing on their records beginning with their highly acclaimed third album Headquarters, as well as performing live as a touring band and solo since 1966/1967, something the Partridges and Archies never did, though both Cassidy and Dante do tour and are both excellent live performers. Try and catch them sometime, who knows, you might even enjoy it.
|
|
|
Post by debjorgo on Aug 3, 2015 21:57:28 GMT -5
Agree again. It's shameful that The Monkees have not yet made it to the RNRHOF.. they deserve to be there, for their great hit songs alone. And I really hate that Davy is gone, and so will never get to see the induction even if The Monkees make it. Hopefully this slight will be corrected before we lose Peter, Mike, or Micky. What about The Partridge Family? The Archies? Well the Archies weren't manufactured. They were drawn together since childhood. If they get in, I'm petitioning for the Groovie Ghoulies. I mean, once you break the cartoon ceiling....
|
|
|
Post by Steve Marinucci on Aug 4, 2015 1:04:56 GMT -5
And yet they are not in The Rock And Roll Hall Of Fame. In our era of "Give Everyone a Prize, Every Child Is a Winner," I am surprised they aren't in before certain other groups/artists. Jann Wenner is making them the Susan Lucci of the RRHOF.
|
|
nine
Very Clean
Posts: 840
|
Post by nine on Aug 4, 2015 5:32:23 GMT -5
Next thing you know it'll turn out that Boney M and Milli Vanilli were manufactured.
|
|
|
Post by OldFred on Aug 4, 2015 7:46:40 GMT -5
I'm still mad that Flavor Flav through Public Enemy got in before the Monkees! Rap Hall of Fame, Yes. Rock & Roll Hall of Fame? Curse you, Wenner!!!
|
|
|
Post by Joe Karlosi on Aug 4, 2015 7:49:31 GMT -5
I'm still mad that Flavor Flav through Public Enemy got in before the Monkees! I'm mad they got in at all, ever.
|
|
|
Post by Joe Karlosi on Aug 4, 2015 7:54:14 GMT -5
Agree again. It's shameful that The Monkees have not yet made it to the RNRHOF.. they deserve to be there, for their great hit songs alone. And I really hate that Davy is gone, and so will never get to see the induction even if The Monkees make it. Hopefully this slight will be corrected before we lose Peter, Mike, or Micky. What about The Partridge Family? The Archies? I agree with Fred on that (mainly regarding The Partridge Family; I'm not sure about The Archies, as I don't know enough about them). But as Fred explained, The Monkees really did transcend just the initial TV series which they were assembled for. They were a real band, who wrote and performed their songs outside of the television program. I could see David Cassidy personally getting into the HOF, but not The Partridge Family.
|
|
|
Post by John S. Damm on Aug 4, 2015 14:30:10 GMT -5
What about The Partridge Family? The Archies? I agree with Fred on that (mainly regarding The Partridge Family; I'm not sure about The Archies, as I don't know enough about them). But as Fred explained, The Monkees really did transcend just the initial TV series which they were assembled for. They were a real band, who wrote and performed their songs outside of the television program. I could see David Cassidy personally getting into the HOF, but not The Partridge Family. Are you fellows trying to kill me! Of course I want David Cassidy in the RRHF and the absolute "Mania" he caused from 1970 through 1973 would justify it. A bunch of classic Pop hits don't hurt either. But I want the Partridge Family in too! Remember the injustice of just putting in Bruce Springsteen but not The E Street Band(they finally just got in)?!
|
|
|
Post by joshferrell on Aug 5, 2015 13:52:06 GMT -5
at least put Michael Nesmith in the RNR hall of fame if not the Monkees... He was really a pioneer in Country Rock (years before the Eagles) and was one of the pioneers in "Music Video" production..
|
|
|
Post by OldFred on Aug 5, 2015 13:58:08 GMT -5
at least put Michael Nesmith in the RNR hall of fame if not the Monkees... He was really a pioneer in Country Rock (years before the Eagles) and was one of the pioneers in "Music Video" production.. Agree with you there, Nesmith definitely deserves a nomination for his extensive and varied solo work.
|
|