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Post by sayne on Aug 18, 2008 20:16:46 GMT -5
I just saw Jethro Tull last night in Los Angeles. This was part of a 40th anniversary tour for the band. Ian Anderson said that they would concentrate on the first 3 albums with a handful of songs from other albums. First, I'll give you the set list, and then make my point:
My Sunday Feeling Living In The Past Serenade To A Cuckoo Nursie So Much Trouble A Song For Jeffrey Rocks On The Road Bourée Too Old To Rock'N'Roll A New Day Yesterday (incl. Kelpie) We Used To Know/With You There To Help Me Dharma For One Heavy Horses Thick As A Brick Aqualung Locomotive Breath
I think you can guess where I'm going with this. No Passion Play, Teacher, Bungle in the Jungle, Cross-Eyed Mary, Sweet Dream, Nothing is Easy, Life's a Long Song, A Witch's Promise, Skating Away, etc. If one was a casual Tull fan, one would have been very disappointed. For the true fan, it was good to see the band go REALLY deep into the catalog. THAT, I think, is what many of us would like to see from Paul. He has soooooooo many good songs that he could do a whole show of never before performed songs and STILL have a good show. Some of us could only wish that Paul could be as artful as Tull was last night.
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Post by Steve Marinucci on Aug 18, 2008 21:11:11 GMT -5
I just saw Jethro Tull last night in Los Angeles. This was part of a 40th anniversary tour for the band. Ian Anderson said that they would concentrate on the first 3 albums with a handful of songs from other albums. First, I'll give you the set list, and then make my point: My Sunday Feeling Living In The Past Serenade To A Cuckoo Nursie So Much Trouble A Song For Jeffrey Rocks On The Road Bourée Too Old To Rock'N'Roll A New Day Yesterday (incl. Kelpie) We Used To Know/With You There To Help Me Dharma For One Heavy Horses Thick As A Brick Aqualung Locomotive Breath I think you can guess where I'm going with this. No Passion Play, Teacher, Bungle in the Jungle, Cross-Eyed Mary, Sweet Dream, Nothing is Easy, Life's a Long Song, A Witch's Promise, Skating Away, etc. If one was a casual Tull fan, one would have been very disappointed. For the true fan, it was good to see the band go REALLY deep into the catalog. THAT, I think, is what many of us would like to see from Paul. He has soooooooo many good songs that he could do a whole show of never before performed songs and STILL have a good show. Some of us could only wish that Paul could be as artful as Tull was last night. The group I would have liked see do that was the Beach Boys back when Carl Wilson was still alive. I'm on a Beach Boys mailing list where Mike Love is basically the anti-Christ for keeping the Beach Boys playing surf hits. They have an incredibly rich catalog outside of the "Endless Summer" songs. They have expanded their set list since allowing Al Jardine back in, but it's sad that so much is missing. (Jardine did a lot of that when he was touring solo.) Brian Wilson, however, has been doing a lot of that kind of stuff on tour.
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Post by mikev on Aug 19, 2008 7:33:38 GMT -5
I didn't know Jardine was back with them. I saw them in Staten Island four years ago, with a Brian Wilson look-alike on bass. The stadium looked like a scene from Spinal Tap.
As much as I'm not a Mike Love fan-he and Teddy Kennedy (Bruce) were pretty entertaining, but main stream.
In reference to Tull's set... I think Paul should do Ram live-entire album-since that was really his "Pet Sounds". He could do his standards, throw in some other gems, then end the show with the whole Ram album. We all know he never will.
I love when he plays Too mnay People, and he has never done Uncle Albert live, even in the age of sampling and Wicks.
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Post by John S. Damm on Aug 19, 2008 8:51:23 GMT -5
In reference to Tull's set... I think Paul should do Ram live-entire album-since that was really his "Pet Sounds". He could do his standards, throw in some other gems, then end the show with the whole Ram album. We all know he never will. Exactly! I have been lobbying for that for years, ever since Brian Wilson started featuring his shows around Pet Sounds or Smile. While many pundits would want Paul to do BOTR, I think Ram is better and would be great fun. It would be a way to reintroduce to the world a great album that was unfairly maligned by the Rock Press in 1971 for reasons that had all to do with then Beatles' politics and little to do with the music. Ram has enjoyed a rehabilitation with the critics but maybe Paul needs to recognize it and what better way than a spotlight performance of it!
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Post by richforman on Aug 19, 2008 10:36:32 GMT -5
Ram better than Band on the Run? Yikes! Anyway.... of course Sayne you realize that Jethro Tull is in a completely different type situation than Sir Paul, in that just about anyone who attends their show is likely to be a real fan as opposed to a casual/general-audience fan. That's why they play in tiny venues compared to where McCartney plays. Tull is not going to be playing a multi-night run at an arena seating 18,000 people; McCartney is not going to be playing any intimate small-theatre shows to just a small audience of dedicated knowledgeable fans (for a relatively low affordable price), it would be impossible, there are too many millions of people out there in the world who may not own any of his solo albums or only one or two from long ago but still would eagerly spend hundreds of dollars to see him perform, and he has to accommodate that kind of huge audience from the general population. Paul gets a really harsh rap from us fans about his set lists IMO; the fact is that ANY long-lasting, super-popular well-known classic rock or pop artists with a huge audience and huge catalog of hits, are gonna play long lists of those hits at every concert, peppered with just a few newer songs and surprise gems for the fans. It's not just Paul, it's ANY major artist! Have you seen Elton John, the Rolling Stones, Chicago, Beach Boys, any other super-popular, long-lasting group or artist at a large concert? The set lists are always overwhelmingly their biggest well-known hits, just seems it has to be that way. And for his part, Paul has always done a good job of including a decent # of never-before-played songs, new album showcase songs, and cool surprises at every one of his tours.....along with a generous helping of his mind-boggling amount of huge hits. Does Elton John play shows without "Your Song," "Rocket Man, "Daniel"? Stones without "Satisfaction", "Jumping Jack Flash", "Honky Tonk Women", "Miss You"? So how could anybody expect Paul not to include "Hey Jude", "Long and Winding Road," "Jet", "Live and Let Die", "Yesterday" etc.; in fact his list of songs everybody in the world knows is so big that he DOESN'T get to all of them in a single show and rotates them around a bit tour to tour. Sure, we fans would appreciate even more variety and surprises, but it's very easy to understand if you look at it objectively, why it doesn't turn out to be that way. (Maybe if Paul's appeal to a huge general audience diminished in years to come, so that he was only selling tickets to, and performing for, die-hard fans, he'd do a tour of smaller shows comprised of artsy album-cut fan favorites, but it just hasn't happened so far!)
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Post by mikev on Aug 19, 2008 11:37:32 GMT -5
Ram was Paul McCartney, BOR was Wings. Personally, Ram has a neat package-a number one hit (Uncle Albert), album cuts (Too Many People), and a classic Beatle era penned tune (Back Seat of My Car).
He did perform three or four Ram tunes during his early 70s college tour.
My own humble opinion is that Ram has aged very very well.
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Post by John S. Damm on Aug 19, 2008 12:27:45 GMT -5
Ram was Paul McCartney, BOR was Wings. Personally, Ram has a neat package-a number one hit (Uncle Albert), album cuts (Too Many People), and a classic Beatle era penned tune (Back Seat of My Car). He did perform three or four Ram tunes during his early 70s college tour. My own humble opinion is that Ram has aged very very well. Ram was also Linda but I know what you mean. It was almost a true solo record whereas Denny has some importants parts in the album BOTR. "Dear Boy" is also one of my top 5 songs from Paul post-Beatles. "Back Seat Of My Car" is up there too.
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Post by vectisfabber on Aug 19, 2008 14:38:54 GMT -5
I don't think he culd sing Uncle Albert well enough to do it justice. Plus who's going to do Linda's vocal work?
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Post by ChokingSmoker on Aug 19, 2008 15:38:45 GMT -5
Christ almighty!!! I'm getting sick and tired of how Pet Sounds changed the Beatles. The friggin nut-job hit the friggin the lottery on this one. Paul paying homage. Give me a friggin break!!!! Did John give him credit?? Of course not!!!!
It would have been somebody else that influenced them if it weren't for Brian. He gets tooooooooooooooooo much credit for his work. I have since sold Pet Sounds years ago and have never deviated or sold Seargent Pepper!!! And for the friggin record, don't miss any of Brian's songs period. Way overrated!!!
Friggin Pink Floyd and ELO blows him away!!!!!!!
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Post by richforman on Aug 19, 2008 15:50:11 GMT -5
What are you talking about ChokingSmoker? Whether you're tired of it or not, Paul has stated that he admired and was inspired and influenced by Brian's work on Pet Sounds, George Martin has praised him effusively and cited his influence and brilliance as well. Actually your little outburst doesn't seem to follow from anything else mentioned in this thread, but anyway, neither Pink Floyd nor ELO, and precious few others, have the towering musical stature, the compositional brilliance or deeply embedded influence on the whole musical landscape, as Brian Wilson and the Beach Boys even if you personally prefer their stuff.
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Post by sayne on Aug 19, 2008 15:51:42 GMT -5
.... of course Sayne you realize that Jethro Tull is in a completely different type situation than Sir Paul . . . Does Elton John play shows without "Your Song," "Rocket Man, "Daniel"? Stones without "Satisfaction", "Jumping Jack Flash", "Honky Tonk Women", "Miss You"? . . . (Maybe if Paul's appeal to a huge general audience diminished in years to come, so that he was only selling tickets to, and performing for, die-hard fans, he'd do a tour of smaller shows comprised of artsy album-cut fan favorites, but it just hasn't happened so far!) Well, this is what I do realize. I've seen Dylan, Elton John, and Bruce Sprinsteen in small halls (when they were still popular enough to sell out arenas) and NOT do the hits. (Elton John didn't even have a band. It was just him and Ray Cooper!)Clapton recently did an ARENA tour and basically did his post-Cream/pre-1974 set. I've seen the Stones NOT do "Satisfaction" , "Miss You", and "Honky Tonk Women". The Stones, in fact, did a tour where they would do 3 shows in and area - one stadium, one arena, and one club. Each venue was a different set, with the club venue being the most obscure songs. Dylan doesn't do "Blowin' in the Wind" or "All Along the Watchtower" every tour or show. I've seen the Who not do "Pinball Wizard", "Can't Explain", and other major songs in the canon. U2 without "I Will Follow" and "Gloria" and "Streets With No Name? Been there. This is what I realize. Paul is old enough, popular enough, rich enough, and artistic enough to be able to do what he wants. Even the great Paul McCartney could do a small venue tour. I believe that Paul does not trust himself OR his fans enough to allow for the non-traditonal Paul show. Now, I'm not saying to get rid of any particular song. "Yesterday"? Fine. "Hey Jude"? Okay. But, at least 80-90% of the songs he's played live since 1976 could be scrubbed and replaced by other really good songs - and I'm not even talking about really obscure ones. Lastly, I seriously doubt that Paul would not sell arenas out if he even advertised the tour as the "Paul Sings the Non-Hits" Tour.
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Post by scousette on Aug 19, 2008 15:52:04 GMT -5
ChokingSmoker's really smoking something, I guess.
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Post by ChokingSmoker on Aug 19, 2008 16:04:18 GMT -5
What are you talking about ChokingSmoker? Whether you're tired of it or not, Paul has stated that he admired and was inspired and influenced by Brian's work on Pet Sounds, George Martin has praised him effusively and cited his influence and brilliance as well. Actually your little outburst doesn't seem to follow from anything else mentioned in this thread, but anyway, neither Pink Floyd nor ELO, and precious few others, have the towering musical stature, the compositional brilliance or deeply embedded influence on the whole musical landscape, as Brian Wilson and the Beach Boys even if you personally prefer their stuff. I would suggest listening to "Dark Side of the Moon" and then forwarding it or expounding on it to Scousette!!!
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Post by winstonoboogie on Aug 19, 2008 20:10:33 GMT -5
I don't think he culd sing Uncle Albert well enough to do it justice. Plus who's going to do Linda's vocal work? Hmmmmmmm....Abe, maybe? ;D
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Post by ursamajor on Aug 20, 2008 4:49:54 GMT -5
Christ almighty!!! I'm getting sick and tired of how Pet Sounds changed the Beatles. The friggin nut-job hit the friggin the lottery on this one. Paul paying homage. Give me a friggin break!!!! Did John give him credit?? Of course not!!!! It would have been somebody else that influenced them if it weren't for Brian. He gets tooooooooooooooooo much credit for his work. I have since sold Pet Sounds years ago and have never deviated or sold Seargent Pepper!!! And for the friggin record, don't miss any of Brian's songs period. Way overrated!!! Friggin Pink Floyd and ELO blows him away!!!!!!! I agree that Pet Sounds is over rated. It's a geek's album and I can't figure out what Paul saw in it that he wanted to repeat with the Beatles. Thankfully there were four Beatles and that helped make Sgt Pepper what it was and what it will always be.
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Post by mikev on Aug 20, 2008 6:52:01 GMT -5
A geek album? I don't think of the Wrecking Crew as a bunch of geeks-just brilliant session musicians who could virtually play anything.
I will admit-it is more of a pop classic than a rock classic. Some say that is where Holly was headed as well. McCartney embraced both genres-got stoned for his power pop.
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Post by OldFred on Aug 20, 2008 8:16:03 GMT -5
I've seen this before, I think on the old board as well, where 'Pet Sounds' gets summarily dismissed. In these arguments the album is never taken into the context of it's time or of what came before it.
Like the Beatles, the Beach Boys, or really Brian Wilson, grew creatively and artistically with each record that was released. 'God Only Knows' and 'Caroline, No' are as light years away from 'Surfer Girl' and 'Fun, Fun, Fun' as 'Strawberry Fields Forever' and 'Penny Lane' are from 'Love Me Do' and 'She Loves You'. The first time I heard 'God Only Knows', the harmonies were so Beatle-like that I used to wonder if any of the Beatles were in the studio joining in.
Brian charted new territory with 'Pet Sounds' in that rather than put out a typical Beach Boys collection of fun Pop tunes, he created a more mature work that followed mature themes of young love, uncertainty, possessiveness, spiritual awakening and heart felt lost, unheard of in Teen Pop music at the time.
A good artist will observe their peers and what they are doing in their art, and if they have a competitive streak, will engage in one-upsmanship. You see this with John and Paul as well as between Paul and Brian.
Both Paul and Brian have stated that they were inspired by each other, and in a friendly competition, tried to best each other, but done in the greatest respect of each others work.
Follow the creative line between the Beatles and Beach Boys records in consecutive order leading up to 'Pet Sounds' and 'Sgt. Pepper'. It's quite fascinating if you do a serious study of it while erasing all preconceived prejudices.
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Post by mikev on Aug 20, 2008 13:29:04 GMT -5
I even took it (the creative line) further to Ram for many reasons, even Paul with the ram on the cover.
As I look at my Pet Sounds CD as I type this, the vocalists of the album (the Beach Boys) are feeding a bunch of farm animals.
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Post by ChokingSmoker on Aug 27, 2008 18:16:32 GMT -5
Follow the creative line between the Beatles and Beach Boys records in consecutive order leading up to 'Pet Sounds' and 'Sgt. Pepper'. It's quite fascinating if you do a serious study of it while erasing all preconceived prejudices. Alright, I will. I've just gotten my hands on Brian's Smile tonight. I have never ever listened to it . I think it is because of my bias on Pet Sounds. I will give it more than one listen, and then get back on it. If I am wrong on this one, I will eat crow and without hesitation. I hope I eat crow on this one. I hear nothing but full praise of Brian on this board. Hopefully I'm wrong and he can move up on my top six list. If not, I'll respectfully give my reasons as to why. Cheers.
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Post by Steve Marinucci on Aug 27, 2008 19:00:41 GMT -5
Follow the creative line between the Beatles and Beach Boys records in consecutive order leading up to 'Pet Sounds' and 'Sgt. Pepper'. It's quite fascinating if you do a serious study of it while erasing all preconceived prejudices. Alright, I will. I've just gotten my hands on Brian's Smile tonight. I have never ever listened to it . I think it is because of my bias on Pet Sounds. I will give it more than one listen, and then get back on it. If I am wrong on this one, I will eat crow and without hesitation. I hope I eat crow on this one. I hear nothing but full praise of Brian on this board. Hopefully I'm wrong and he can move up on my top six list. If not, I'll respectfully give my reasons as to why. Cheers. Did you get the legit Smile or one of the bootleg versions? I think both have something going for them (the legit is fully realized, while the bootleg has all Beach Boys). Just curious.
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Post by mikev on Aug 27, 2008 19:07:31 GMT -5
I think it is more appreciated to watch the live DVD performance. Even though we know Brian is not the most energetic entertainer in the world-he sings the songs live with sincerity and passion. The young backing musicians are very professional.
Smile is probably even more pop than Pet Sounds.
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Post by OldFred on Aug 27, 2008 19:35:15 GMT -5
Here's a link to a 2006 article I wrote on the old board referencing the creative rivalry between Paul McCartney and Brian Wilson. Thought it'd be interesting to revisit the article. abbeyrd.proboards83.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=202Regarding 'Smile', be sure to listen to Brian's completed version of it rather than the fragments found on Beach Boys bootlegs. Also pick up the 'Smile' DVD which contains a live performance of the album as well as an amazing documentary about the history of Brian and 'Smile'.
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Post by ChokingSmoker on Aug 28, 2008 18:31:51 GMT -5
Oh, the pain. What an excruciating exercise into the world of "pop fluff" as Smile has turned out to be.
I gave it a couple of listens and here-bye declare it to be falling far short of any masterpiece. Brian Wilson does not move up on my list.
After giving it the first listen, I immediately inserted "Dark Side of the Moon" for proper contrast. There is no comparison. The former falls short and the latter exaggerates that fact even further.
All and all, not a bad album. Better than Pet Sounds in my opinion. That is not saying much in my world though. The sound production is incredible. But unlike the Beatles, with every song they churned out that would grab you, Smile failed to do that. The only true redeeming quality was "Good Vibrations". The final track on the CD I got my hands on. That was a brilliant rendition of one of the greatest songs of all-time. That, I must admit.
Cheers.
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Post by OldFred on Aug 28, 2008 19:00:54 GMT -5
CS, I don't know if this will convince you, but I do recommend you hear this BBC Radio 2 special referenced in this thread on Brian Wilson. It touches on Brian's rivalry with the Beatles, in particular Paul, and has a nice interview with George Martin. abbeyrd.proboards83.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=206As for Smile, it's a good idea to examine the history of the album to fully appreciate it's legend. I do recommend you get or at least rent the Smile DVD with the documentary on Brian called 'Beautiful Dreamer'. It chronicles Brian's creative journey and the struggles and heartbreaks he endured trying to put together Smile during it's original Beach Boys incarnation to it's final complete version. There's a very charming and endearing moment in the documentary where Paul McCartney warmly wishes Brian good luck before the world premiere of Smile in England. The deep respect Paul has for Brian is heartfelt. The scenes where Smile is given it's world premiere and Brian acknowledges the warmth of the audiences' enthusiastic and joyful applause and him asking his collaborator Van Dyke Parks to share the moment with him are very emotional. Seriously, don't write off Brian's work so cavalierly. There's a history there that's as fascinating and artistically rewarding as the music the Beatles' created. I love the Beatles, but I also feel that Brian Wilson is as important a figure in Pop/Rock music as they are and his contributions to the art form shouldn't be so casually dismissed. I feel so strongly about this that I'd even consider sending you a copy of the Smile DVD just so you can see the documentary. I can't guarantee it for you, but I hope at least it'll help you appreciate Brian's work a little better. Cheers from a fellow lover of music, Old Fred
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Post by ChokingSmoker on Sept 2, 2008 17:31:01 GMT -5
CS, Seriously, don't write off Brian's work so cavalierly. There's a history there that's as fascinating and artistically rewarding as the music the Beatles' created. I love the Beatles, but I also feel that Brian Wilson is as important a figure in Pop/Rock music as they are and his contributions to the art form shouldn't be so casually dismissed. I feel so strongly about this that I'd even consider sending you a copy of the Smile DVD just so you can see the documentary. I can't guarantee it for you, but I hope at least it'll help you appreciate Brian's work a little better. Cheers from a fellow lover of music, Old Fred Well said. I am not at all writing off Brian in any shape, manner or form. Simply put, I cannot lay back for hours listening to his stuff. It just doesn't grab me. The importance of Pet Sounds to Paul and other musicians is well documented. It gains high praise amongst almost any significant musician out there. This I cannot argue with. It is just a matter of musical taste in my humble opinion. Pet Sounds is what it is. Released for its time, it was great. But since then (in my opinion), there have been many albums that have surpassed it. That is all I can say. Cheers.
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