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Post by Joe Karlosi on Sept 8, 2010 16:12:10 GMT -5
We were discussing the song ATTICA STATE in another thread, so this got me thinking the time was right to expand on this LP.
I'd say it's John's worst "original" album (that is, not counting ROCK N ROLL), but I still think the SOMETIME IN NYC album has some good tunes/music, even though the "causes" are outdated, and the lyrics are not very good in many cases.
WOMAN IS THE NIGGER OF THE WORLD -- Great opener. I like this song a lot, and think it's another ballsy move from Lennon for the times. Love the horns, the rockin' feel, and John's intensity. While most songs are dated on SINYC, I think this song may stand the test of time better, as it's possible women may always be considered needing to be treated on "equal footing" like men.
SISTERS O SISTERS -- I like this Yoko song a great deal. She makes it sound like some kind of '60s girl group pop.
ATTICA STATE -- I'm not a fan of the sentiment expressed here, but I love the power and energy of the arrangement.
BORN IN A PRISON -- It's okay. Like the duet of J&Y.
NEW YORK CITY -- One of John's greatest rockers ever. It's worth owning the LP for this song alone, even if you don't like the others. Especially enjoy the piano, but I think all the music sounds good on it.
SUNDAY BLOODY SUNDAY -- This may be my pick as John's WORST EVER SONG, or at least one of them. I don't care for the topic, the music, or the lyrics. Pretty bad.
THE LUCK OF THE IRISH -- Nice song, melody. The words? Meh. They don't bug me that much, but they're nothing good either.
JOHN SINCLAIR -- Another hard song and with a great slide guitar. I like that John wrote this one especially for John Sinclair, but again I have to wonder if he was worth it.
ANGELA -- A beautiful song/melody. I'm not so sure the subject suits it, but I like listening to it.
WE'RE ALL WATER -- Yoko getting crazy again, and I like it. Just wild fun, nothing to take too seriously.
LIVE JAM -- I seldom listen to this. I enjoy this particular version of "Cold Turkey" a lot though. I like "Well Baby Please Don't Go", but feel Yoko intrudes on this song too much and takes away from it with her noise-making. I actually like the song "Don't Worry Kyoko", but am astonished to say I don't think I've ever played the live version of it from this particular album!
FRANK ZAPPA STUFF -- I don't listen. I think I heard "Scumbag" once. It was enough.
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Post by ursamajor on Sept 8, 2010 16:58:46 GMT -5
If this was a pure rock record it would have been John's best to date at that point but John liked to take risks and this time it didn't work out.
ATTICA STATE is a great rocking tune but it sounds like John is supporting in mates who were attacked by guards in the jail. So what ? Those scum don't deserve sympathy. Maybe I'm wrong about what it's about but I agree with you Joe I don't like the sentiment.
ANGELA, what a fantastic breezy tune that gets jazzy and rocky at the same time but I don't like the lyrics.
In fact I like alot of the songs but don't care at all for the topics and it proves that you can't mix music and politics in this way, it just doesn't work.
WE'RE ALL WATER is the most avant-garde yet accessible song ever done on a solo album, well done to John and Yoko on that one.
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Post by acebackwords on Sept 8, 2010 19:50:05 GMT -5
Terrible album. Fascinating period. Has anybody seen the set of videos of John & Yoko on the "Mike Douglas Show" during this period?
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Post by John S. Damm on Sept 8, 2010 21:21:07 GMT -5
Terrible album. Fascinating period. Has anybody seen the set of videos of John & Yoko on the "Mike Douglas Show" during this period? Yes, very enjoyable on several fronts. John's Beatles experience of dealing with so much media served him well. Many, many times throughout the week John plays moderator between the audience or with other guests and some of the really radical guests like Jerry Rubin. John was a pro at it and it had to be from his being in, "the Greatest Show on Earth." Watching Jerry Rubin in the band was kind of funny, the guy had less rhythm than Tracy Partridge and that is saying a lot because she was only 8 years old and not even playing! ;D I wish these were on dvd(maybe they are?).
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Post by John S. Damm on Sept 8, 2010 23:09:19 GMT -5
As a teenager I actually liked this album even though I read the bad reviews and was thus warned about the instantly dated lyrics on many of the tracks. Many critics seized on the newspaper theme on the album cover and title and noted that newspapers become dated the very next day with the advent of the next edition and so, they opined, went this album. Kind of. Disc: 1 1. Woman Is the Nigger of the World: Great singing and yes, I like the horns on this song. John is very passionate here. And let the argument begin: I believe John and Yoko were too clever for their own good by using the word "nigger" in this protest song. Of course their intentions were good but today that word is just not used by folks, especially white folks, to make an intellectual point. It was controversial then and John and Yoko had to parade out some African American friends to support them. They would have a harder time now finding those friends to defend their clever phrase. Good intentions, horrible choice of word. 2. Sisters, O Sisters: Catchy, even I can dance to it(I never have though but I bet I could!). My favorite Yoko Only song on this album. Attica State: I don't like much about this song but I guess it does rock and roll, I kind of like the chorus, "Attica, Attica State, we're all mates with Attica State." 4. Born in a Prison: Here is my least favorite song on the album although John's harmony vocal is cool. It does have my favorite Yoko line, "Wood becomes a flute when its loved" and I am convinced that she is referring to a blow-job and not literally carving a stick into a musical instrument. Kind of Yoko's "fish and finger pie" line ala The Beatles on "Penny Lane." I could be wrong! ;D 5. New York City: Great rocker, great song. This is cool even today. How many times on John's birthday or date of murder will the radio DJ say he/she is going to play John Lennon and how I wish for once to hear this song instead of "Imagine," "Number Nine Dream" or (Just Like)Starting Over. All great songs but let's not forget that John could ROCK! Had John been allowed to live, I see him doing this at John and Paul's Concert For New York City( ) in 2001 with slightly changed lyrics about the city rising from the ashes to be better than ever. Another reason to curse Chapman and be relieved that he has at least two more years in Attica State. 6. Sunday Bloody Sunday: I love this song for the power of John's vocal and passion. It reminds me of "Come Together." Our friend vectisfabber convinced me years ago though that there is nothing noble or honorable about the I.R.A.'s terror campaign so I regret the sentiments expressed by John in the lyrics. Still the song rocks. 7. The Luck of the Irish: I love John's parts but cringe on Yoko's sung verses. I like this song and I have less problem with the sentiments expressed here as the Irish in me knows that women are the Irish of the world! 8. John Sinclair: Good song that rocks along nicely but man, all those "gotta, gotta"'s drive me crazy. I thought my record player's needle was stuck the first time I heard this song. Is that an old Blues' thing? 9. Angela: I love this song but I don't love the woman it is about. The Stones have a good song about her too on "Exile." I think this is the best joint singing performance John and Yoko ever did together. Yoko sounds great. I would love to hear this done by many different contemporary male/female duos. Imagine John and Sinead O'Connor doing this live! It would be amazing, old Sinead would really give it her all. She does a killer cover of "Mind Games" by the way. 10. We're All Water: Wow, Yoko rocks out on this. I don't know why, but for the last 30 years I probably blurt out her line, "There may not be much difference between Chairman Mao and Richard Nixon if we see them naked" more than any other song line out there. Bad case of "ear worm" I guess. The 2005 remastered SINYC shaves two minutes off this song: BOO!I like the live "Cold Turkey" and the old Cavern number "Well Baby Please Don't Go" but I don't care for the Zappa stuff. Wikipedia has a 1988 Frank Zappa Rolling Stone quote where he says about John and Yoko stealing some of his music: "They put out this record and took 'King Kong'—which obviously has a tune, and a rhythm, and chord changes—and they called it 'Jam Rag', and accredited the writing and publishing to themselves.... the way they mixed it, you can't hear what Mark and Howard are singing." John and Yoko edited out words actually sung by Zappa band members Mark Volman and Howard Kaylan. Hmm. Thats more blatant than "My Sweet Lord!" Maybe that's why the 2005 re-issue omits this stuff! I still play this album from time to time. I played the original c.d. version of Disc 1 tonight as I typed this and man are the sonics poor but I am boycotting the 2005 re-issue for cutting off 2 minutes from "We're All Water." The 2010 re-issue restores all, including the Zappa live material(I think).
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Post by vectisfabber on Sept 9, 2010 4:49:08 GMT -5
I thoroughly disliked this album and still do. It was late arriving in the UK so I paid over the odds to buy an import, and I still resent the money I wasted.
The first disk was half Yoko, and if I'd wanted a Yoko album I'd have bought a Yoko album. John had previously "treated" us to Yoko on the B sides of singles - now we had to pay for an import double album to get, effectively, a single side of Lennon, and even that side was filled with ill-judged political posturing. The voice was there, and there were some moments of decent melody, but the lyrical content was enough to sour the entire project even if the appalling (non) value for money wasn't.
Without any doubt this was the lowest point in Lennon's lacklustre solo career - God knows I've been pretty disappointed by McCartney's solo work over the years, but Lennon's failure to fulfill the promise of his Beatle years dwarfs McCartney's.
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Sept 9, 2010 4:57:55 GMT -5
God knows I've been pretty disappointed by McCartney's solo work over the years, but Lennon's failure to fulfill the promise of his Beatle years dwarfs McCartney's. Well, you're basically a "Beatles Guy", vectis. But John disowned The Beatles with his song GOD, and his " failure to fulfill the promise of his Beatle years" (I call it more of a "success" personally) I don't think was ever the point of his work after the split. I am suddenly reminded of the sequence shown in IMAGINE: JOHN LENNON where he confronts the woman reporter and says something like "Well, I'm sorry you liked the old moptops and you thought I was witty and you liked A HARD DAY'S NIGHT, but I've grown up". I'm curious why you even bothered buying it? Nobody forced you to though, and I'm guessing by this time you were aware of what John and Yoko were doing and the type of political ventures they were consumed with. Didn't you hear about this LP in advance and kind of knew what to expect?
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Sept 9, 2010 5:04:55 GMT -5
10. We're All Water: The 2005 remastered SINYC shaves two minutes off this song: BOO! It does? Wow, I never knew that. Thanks for the information. But *ahem* -- okay, Yoko-naysayers, what does that tell you? So you think Yoko's always hogging the spotlight, but yet here she cuts out two minutes of her own song?
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Post by John S. Damm on Sept 9, 2010 8:11:49 GMT -5
10. We're All Water: The 2005 remastered SINYC shaves two minutes off this song: BOO! It does? Wow, I never knew that. Thanks for the information. But *ahem* -- okay, Yoko-naysayers, what does that tell you? So you think Yoko's always hogging the spotlight, but yet here she cuts out two minutes of her own song? She goes nuts towards the end as she is rocking out. I didn't play the two versions back to back to see what has been cut but probably the fade-out where Yoko scats in her unique way. Didn't you write Joe(someone did) that "Meat City" on the re-issued Mind Games is edited(shortened) at the end? I don't want John or Yoko songs edited from the original releases.
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Sept 9, 2010 8:16:51 GMT -5
Didn't you write Joe(someone did) that "Meat City" on the re-issued Mind Games is edited(shortened) at the end? I don't want John or Yoko songs edited from the original releases. Yes. I wrote that, and I certainly agree with you in general. If the latest 2010 reissue of MIND GAMES doesn't restore John's complete comment at the end of MEAT CITY, that'll be the third strike!
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Post by sayne on Sept 9, 2010 10:30:14 GMT -5
Terrible album. Fascinating period. Has anybody seen the set of videos of John & Yoko on the "Mike Douglas Show" during this period? I remember watching it when it happened. For you younger post-MTV people on this board, this was a time when rock - real rock was hardly ever on TV, except for late night shows like, Don Kirschner's Rock Concert and The Midnight Special. Johnny Carson didn't really have an affinity for rock, being a jazz guy and being part of a different generation. Prime time and day time? Forget it. And, with real rock seldomly seen on TV, having a Beatle on was even more rare. That's why cameos like Ringo on Laugh-In or George on the Smothers Brothers WERE events. So, having John and Yoko on Mike Douglas was eventful on many, many counts: real rock, a Beatle, counterculture, etc. Today, superstars being on TV isn't seen as slumming anymore. For me, that week on Mike Douglas was gold. David Bowie on Dinah Shore was epic, too.
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Post by mikev on Sept 9, 2010 11:24:55 GMT -5
Terrible album. Fascinating period. Has anybody seen the set of videos of John & Yoko on the "Mike Douglas Show" during this period? I remember watching it when it happened. For you younger post-MTV people on this board, this was a time when rock - real rock was hardly ever on TV, except for late night shows like, Don Kirschner's Rock Concert and The Midnight Special. Johnny Carson didn't really have an affinity for rock, being a jazz guy and being part of a different generation. Prime time and day time? Forget it. And, with real rock seldomly seen on TV, having a Beatle on was even more rare. That's why cameos like Ringo on Laugh-In or George on the Smothers Brothers WERE events. So, having John and Yoko on Mike Douglas was eventful on many, many counts: real rock, a Beatle, counterculture, etc. Today, superstars being on TV isn't seen as slumming anymore. For me, that week on Mike Douglas was gold. David Bowie on Dinah Shore was epic, too. ...and after 1975 you also had SNL. I always thought that would have been the show the Beatles would reunite on and watched it religiously until 1980. Funny how Don Kirshner- the godfather of bubble gum music hosted such a hip show.
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Post by acebackwords on Sept 9, 2010 13:32:14 GMT -5
To me, as mediocre as the album is musically and politically, it illustrates the rare and brilliant thing that Lennon and Lennon alone really brought to the Beatles. Virtually every Beatles album can be seen as a specific period, a specific concept, a specific historical era even. And Lennon was the one who brought that to the table. You could (and people have ) write books just about all the shenanigans Lennon was up to during this period. I mean, that boy was not fucking around. He hooked up with the heaviest political radicals of the era and aspired towards nothing less than over-throw of the government and revolution and a complete re-ordering of our social structures. And ready and willing to throw the full weight of his world-wide celebrity towards the cause. Weird.
Plus, thats great cover art.
And imagine how powerful that album might have been if the political sentiments had been glossed up with all those fantastic McCartney melodies and George Martin production.
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Post by mikev on Sept 9, 2010 13:52:33 GMT -5
To me, as mediocre as the album is musically and politically, it illustrates the rare and brilliant thing that Lennon and Lennon alone really brought to the Beatles. Virtually every Beatles album can be seen as a specific period, a specific concept, a specific historical era even. And Lennon was the one who brought that to the table. You could (and people have ) write books just about all the shenanigans Lennon was up to during this period. I mean, that boy was not fucking around. He hooked up with the heaviest political radicals of the era and aspired towards nothing less than over-throw of the government and revolution and a complete re-ordering of our social structures. And ready and willing to throw the full weight of his world-wide celebrity towards the cause. Weird. Plus, thats great cover art. And imagine how powerful that album might have been if the political sentiments had been glossed up with all those fantastic McCartney melodies and George Martin production. It would have sold more albums- but a Beatle album of political rantings would signal the end.
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Post by acebackwords on Sept 9, 2010 17:59:35 GMT -5
Ha ha. Great album cover! I'd buy it. Though I don't know if I'd listen to it much.
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Sept 9, 2010 18:34:35 GMT -5
Reminds me to say -- I thought SOMETIME IN NEW YORK CITY had a great LP cover.
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Post by coachbk on Sept 9, 2010 19:56:03 GMT -5
I don't think SINYC is as bad as some critics made it out to be, but it isn't that good either. The big problem is the lyrics. There just isn't the brilliance and wit of John's best work. On the plus side, "New York City" is a fantastic rocker. "Luck Of The Irish" is melodic. "Sisters Oh Sisters" and "We Are All Water" are fun Yoko tracks. The lyric about Nixon and Chairman Mao naked is great! None of the rest of the songs do much for me.
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Post by stavros on Sept 10, 2010 15:50:40 GMT -5
I have no idea what John was doing on this album. It is arguably the worst ever Beatles Solo album. The production and quality of tracks is really poor. Maybe it's because I do not remember 1972? I purchased it about 10 years ago and have played it on very few occasions. In fact it is less than the number of years that have passed. He may have thought that "Let it Be" was the crappiest load of tracks to listen to but he was totally wrong.
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Post by beatleroadie on Sept 23, 2010 14:00:56 GMT -5
Should have been a single instead....New York City b/w Angela.
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Post by sayne on Sept 24, 2010 14:32:28 GMT -5
. . . Lennon . . . was not fucking around. He hooked up with the heaviest political radicals of the era and aspired towards nothing less than over-throw of the government and revolution and a complete re-ordering of our social structures. And ready and willing to throw the full weight of his world-wide celebrity towards the cause . . . I wrote a long time ago on the old board, that good, bad, or indifferent, NO other celebrity of his status has ever put themselves out like that for as transformative causes as he did. It's one thing for a Cory Feldman or Joan Baez or Mary Tyler Moore to stand up for something because what do they REALLY have to lose. It's also one thing to stand up for "easy" causes like clean air or muscular dystropy or school lunches, but the issues John addressed were not mainstream feel good issues. He was THE biggest "worldwide" celebrity standing up for the toughest causes. Agree or disagree with his stances, but he stood and tried to deliver.
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Post by vectisfabber on Sept 24, 2010 15:49:44 GMT -5
Or: he was a feelgood left winger with a guilty conscience about being a wealthy successful capitalist, gullibly sucked into supporting every trendy counterculture cause, no matter how misconceived and undeserving.
Lennon's thinking muscles weren't involved at all - any intelligence was willingly sacrificed on the altar of "album as ephemeral journalism."
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Post by acebackwords on Sept 24, 2010 15:50:19 GMT -5
. . . Lennon . . . was not fucking around. He hooked up with the heaviest political radicals of the era and aspired towards nothing less than over-throw of the government and revolution and a complete re-ordering of our social structures. And ready and willing to throw the full weight of his world-wide celebrity towards the cause . . . I wrote a long time ago on the old board, that good, bad, or indifferent, NO other celebrity of his status has ever put themselves out like that for as transformative causes as he did. It's one thing for a Cory Feldman or Joan Baez or Mary Tyler Moore to stand up for something because what do they REALLY have to lose. It's also one thing to stand up for "easy" causes like clean air or muscular dystropy or school lunches, but the issues John addressed were not mainstream feel good issues. He was THE biggest "worldwide" celebrity standing up for the toughest causes. Agree or disagree with his stances, but he stood and tried to deliver. Yeah, I agree, Sayne (funny, every time I see your name I think "Here comes a sane post."). My only problem with Lennon and all the '60s radicals and the entire '60s counterculture is: After they over-threw the prevailing social order, all that really resulted was (um) a hopelessly disordered society. Maybe their intentions were good, but the horse-bleep level of thinking on this album is a perfect time-capsule of their folly. Sure, release all the prisoners in Attica. Great idea, John. Here's John and Yoko -- he's only been in America a couple months and him and Yoko are already calling press conferences announcing their proposals to completely revamp our criminal justice system. Hey John, you might be a genius in some ways, but not in this one.
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Post by ursamajor on Sept 24, 2010 16:59:01 GMT -5
Looking back on this album and period, it seems impossible that any good could have come from it. John basically achieved nothing except some guy called John Sinclair was released from prison, if it had been Nelson Mandela, different story and John becomes a working class hero. John lost some of his MOJO after this album. He should have got serious and made a great Lennon album straight after but instead we got the patchy Mind Games.
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Post by acebackwords on Sept 24, 2010 18:01:04 GMT -5
Looking back on this album and period, it seems impossible that any good could have come from it. John basically achieved nothing except some guy called John Sinclair was released from prison, if it had been Nelson Mandela, different story and John becomes a working class hero. John lost some of his MOJO after this album. He should have got serious and made a great Lennon album straight after but instead we got the patchy Mind Games. And even John Sinclair ended up hating his guts. I don't have his exact quotes but it was words to the effect: "Being with them in their apartment was one of the most humiliating things I ever went through, even worse than getting anally strip-searched by the pigs. You should have seen them, laying on their bed together in the nude like they're the king and queen and people having to prostrate themselves in front of them." Boy, you get a guy out of a long prison term you'd think he'd be a little grateful. Either Sinclair is an asshole, or JohnandYoko came at him with some pretty repugnant attitudes.
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Post by John S. Damm on Sept 24, 2010 22:51:37 GMT -5
Looking back on this album and period, it seems impossible that any good could have come from it. John basically achieved nothing except some guy called John Sinclair was released from prison, if it had been Nelson Mandela, different story and John becomes a working class hero. John lost some of his MOJO after this album. He should have got serious and made a great Lennon album straight after but instead we got the patchy Mind Games. And even John Sinclair ended up hating his guts. I don't have his exact quotes but it was words to the effect: "Being with them in their apartment was one of the most humiliating things I ever went through, even worse than getting anally strip-searched by the pigs. You should have seen them, laying on their bed together in the nude like they're the king and queen and people having to prostrate themselves in front of them." Boy, you get a guy out of a long prison term you'd think he'd be a little grateful. Either Sinclair is an asshole, or JohnandYoko came at him with some pretty repugnant attitudes. Or came at him with repugnant body parts! ;D
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Sept 25, 2010 5:02:04 GMT -5
And even John Sinclair ended up hating his guts. I don't have his exact quotes but it was words to the effect: "Being with them in their apartment was one of the most humiliating things I ever went through, even worse than getting anally strip-searched by the pigs. You should have seen them, laying on their bed together in the nude like they're the king and queen and people having to prostrate themselves in front of them." Boy, you get a guy out of a long prison term you'd think he'd be a little grateful. Either Sinclair is an asshole, or JohnandYoko came at him with some pretty repugnant attitudes. Or came at him with repugnant body parts! ;D Or, it was JS's misinterpretation. Or, it never happened.
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Post by vectisfabber on Sept 25, 2010 7:03:56 GMT -5
But he was there.... (this is the place where I want one of those emoticons which shows the little yellow face with red horns and a wicked grin - just teasing! )
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Post by sayne on Sept 25, 2010 11:32:49 GMT -5
Or: he was a feelgood left winger with a guilty conscience about being a wealthy successful capitalist, gullibly sucked into supporting every trendy counterculture cause, no matter how misconceived and undeserving. Lennon's thinking muscles weren't involved at all - any intelligence was willingly sacrificed on the altar of "album as ephemeral journalism." Perhaps, but reform of marijuana laws for small personal use, prison/legal system reform, women's rights, Northern Ireland, etc, ARE all very worthy. As I said earlier, I think John was clumsy in his articulation (free all prisoners, for example), but if one were to strip away the metaphors or exaggerations or hot air, one would see very thought provoking policy initiatives.
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Post by ursamajor on Sept 25, 2010 15:54:31 GMT -5
Or: he was a feelgood left winger with a guilty conscience about being a wealthy successful capitalist, gullibly sucked into supporting every trendy counterculture cause, no matter how misconceived and undeserving. Lennon's thinking muscles weren't involved at all - any intelligence was willingly sacrificed on the altar of "album as ephemeral journalism." Perhaps, but reform of marijuana laws for small personal use, prison/legal system reform, women's rights, Northern Ireland, etc, ARE all very worthy. As I said earlier, I think John was clumsy in his articulation (free all prisoners, for example), but if one were to strip away the metaphors or exaggerations or hot air, one would see very thought provoking policy initiatives. How about some great music ? That's what I bought it for ...
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Post by vectisfabber on Sept 25, 2010 16:24:52 GMT -5
I think I might take issue over Northern Ireland - the last thing that troubled province needed at the time was glib soundbites from a high profile musician as sentimentally besotted by his couple of veinsful of Irish blood as the US fundraisers who kept the IRA in weapons.
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