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Post by Joe Karlosi on Sept 17, 2010 16:46:46 GMT -5
In 1980 I was 18 and a John Lennon freak. I really came to appreciate him as a solo artist during the years he was reclusive. So when I heard that he was recording again, my dream came true. I recall a friend of mine who lived a train ride away had gotten the new DOUBLE FANTASY early, sometime in November. He invited me to his house to hear it. I remember excitedly waiting for the train to arrive like a little kid, this being the only time (unbeknownst to me) that I'd ever know the pleasure of getting to experience the release of an all-new studio LP from John. In a moment of daring excitement, I took a little magic marker out of my pocket and wrote a little graffiti on the subway station sign: "JOHN LENNON LIVES! NOVEMBER (date), 1980!!!!" (How tragically ironic that would be weeks later). When I first heard the LP at my friend's house I recall being underwhelmed. I think a lot of critics and fans were. But Yoko's tracks stood out to me as being more exciting, modern, and cutting edge. I think at that time I liked WATCHING THE WHEELS right when I first heard it, but I'm not sure of the others. When John was killed on December 8th, the album felt totally different. First it was a symbol of John's growth and return to life -- afterwards, it was a cardboard tombstone of his memory. I feel that, sadly, DOUBLE FANTASY is marred forever from what it was initially intended to be as a result of John's senseless death. I think DF is very hard to listen to now -- it's an exciting, "fresh" album, but which reminds me of the tragedy that followed. Actually - I like the album more now, and think it's got at least a few John classics on it. Something I didn't feel at all when it was first issued: (JUST LIKE) STARTING OVER -- I'd already heard this on the radio when it was the single. It was great to hear John's voice again, and it gave me goosebumps of joy at the time. Still, it was kind of sappy for John. It's good, but not a favorite. KISS KISS KISS -- Yoko being Yoko, especially at the end. I like it, it's pretty odd. CLEANUP TIME -- A filler track, but I've always enjoyed it. Nothing great. GIVE ME SOMETHING -- More modern, rockin' Yoko. It's fun. ;D I'M LOSING YOU -- I'd caught this on the radio one afternoon before the LP ever came out. I flipped on the station and I heard what sounded like John's voice saying "I know I hurt you then, but hell that was way back when.." It was again a chilling moment. But I like this song, and I may be in a minority where I prefer it to that other CHeap Trick version. However... ;D I'M MOVING ON -- This may be my favorite song on the whole album, and it's from Yoko. I can't explain why. I know that the first time I heard I'M LOSING YOU on the radio that day, I heard the frazzled segue between tracks as John's song ended, and when Yoko returned with this "Answer Song", I thought it was a perfect "collaboration" of two artists. It sounded so new, so fresh, so self-assured. I like the overall sound of the entire track. ;D BEAUTIFUL BOY -- Well, it's become a Lennon Classic. A great song, brings tears to my eyes nearly every time, especially because we know daddy will no longer be with his boy. ;D WATCHING THE WHEELS -- John explains what he was basically doing in those reclusive years, and sort of telling his objectors to sod it, again. I like it a lot. I think it's another John Classic these days. YES, I'M YOUR ANGEL -- Not my favorite, but I like it in its spot on the album, and it's okay. ;D WOMAN -- Another John Classic. It's a fine love song to Yoko, and to all women. BEAUTIFUL BOYS -- This may be my least favorite song on the album, from Yoko. I can listen to it in context of all the songs, but it's just not a fave. DEAR YOKO -- Pure drivel from John. I think he did it better with OH YOKO, as far as his paying tribute to her. It's not by any means bad or unlistenable, but it's a knock-off, to me. ;D EVERY MAN HAS A WOMAN WHO LOVES HIM -- A good Yoko song. I prefer the other version with John singing up front, though. I don't know if this is a hypocritical view on my part, having said I don't approve of that new DOUBLE FANTASY STRIPPED DOWN project .. but it works well with John in lead, and sound slike a new take, even if it isn't. ;D HARD TIMES ARE OVER -- The harsh reality of what was about to happen to John (and Yoko) really makes this song sad. I always come close to tears listening to Yoko (and John in back) procaliming how things are getting easier now, when in reality --- if they could only have known... It strikes me today as a tear-jerking finale.
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Post by brothermichael on Sept 17, 2010 19:45:24 GMT -5
I turn to Cleanup Time more than any of the other tracks. It has that sneaky groove, a horn sound that George liked to use, and a more than passing nod to Stevie Wonder's Superstition. Freshest track for me today.
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Post by theman on Sept 17, 2010 20:28:15 GMT -5
I'm almost in total agreement with everything stated here. I think Yoko's contributions on this album make this a better listen than it would have been had John included his "other" songs-- subsequently released on Milk and Honey--in place of Yoko's. Other than "Beautiful Boys", which lyrically is pretty awkward and weak, Yoko really shined on this album.
"Watching the Wheels" is probably one of my top 3 solo John songs. "I'm Your Angel" is a guilty pleasure for me.
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Post by Steve Marinucci on Sept 18, 2010 9:48:20 GMT -5
I'm almost in total agreement with everything stated here. I think Yoko's contributions on this album make this a better listen than it would have been had John included his "other" songs-- subsequently released on Milk and Honey--in place of Yoko's. Other than "Beautiful Boys", which lyrically is pretty awkward and weak, Yoko really shined on this album. "Watching the Wheels" is probably one of my top 3 solo John songs. "I'm Your Angel" is a guilty pleasure for me. Funny how Yoko's songs were a stone when the album was first released and now they're not. Got a copy of the MFSL version, by the way, and it sounds fantastic.
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Post by Steve Marinucci on Sept 18, 2010 9:55:22 GMT -5
I'm almost in total agreement with everything stated here. I think Yoko's contributions on this album make this a better listen than it would have been had John included his "other" songs-- subsequently released on Milk and Honey--in place of Yoko's. Other than "Beautiful Boys", which lyrically is pretty awkward and weak, Yoko really shined on this album. "Watching the Wheels" is probably one of my top 3 solo John songs. "I'm Your Angel" is a guilty pleasure for me. Well, remember the "Milk and Honey" tracks were left in rough form. I'm not saying they would have measured up, but it's not totally fair to judge them as they were released. We never know what John would have done or if he'd have even released them.
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Post by John S. Damm on Sept 18, 2010 12:10:21 GMT -5
I'm almost in total agreement with everything stated here. I think Yoko's contributions on this album make this a better listen than it would have been had John included his "other" songs-- subsequently released on Milk and Honey--in place of Yoko's. Other than "Beautiful Boys", which lyrically is pretty awkward and weak, Yoko really shined on this album. "Watching the Wheels" is probably one of my top 3 solo John songs. "I'm Your Angel" is a guilty pleasure for me. Well, remember the "Milk and Honey" tracks were left in rough form. I'm not saying they would have measured up, but it's not totally fair to judge them as they were released. We never know what John would have done or if he'd have even released them. I agree. I think John would have worked much more on those M&H songs.
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Sept 18, 2010 12:35:07 GMT -5
Hey, JSD - I wanna read your DF song reviews! You're one of my favorite participants in these things!
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Post by coachbk on Sept 18, 2010 21:43:54 GMT -5
I remember hearing "Starting Over" on a static filled AM radio and just catching it in the middle. I knew it was John and thought it sounded like ELO at that point. Later hearing the whole song I thought it had a bit of a 50's sound (Elvis Orbison was how John put it). I bought the album and liked all of John's songs except "Cleanup Time: (pure filler). My favorites were "Watching The Wheels" and "Beautiful Boy". I was pleasantly surprised with the Yoko tracks, especially "Kiss Kiss Kiss". I listened to it constantly and despite what revisionist history says, I remember it receiving a lot of airplay and doing well on the charts. When I got a call from my girlfriend (now wife) in the early morning telling me John had been shot, DOUBLE FANTASY was on my turntable. Over the next week the radio was filled with Lennon and The Beatles and I didn't take the album off the turntable. When I fiinally did listen to it, I cried uncontrollably at "Beautiful Boy". I just couldn't bear to listen to the album and didn't for quite a while. When MILK AND HONEY came out, it was a pleasant surprise. I consider "Nobody Told Me", "I'm Steppin Out" and "Grow Old With Me" to be among John's best songs. It was a fun album for me to listen to and I started listening to DOUBLE FANTASY again. My thinking now is that a combination of John's songs from these two albums would be my favorite of his solo albums. I also very much prefer the Cheap Trick version of "I'm Losing You". It rocks so much more. I think John was ready to do his best stuff since his 1965-67 peak and it sucks so bad that he didn't get the chance. (understatement for sure)
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Post by ursamajor on Sept 18, 2010 22:36:42 GMT -5
I remember hearing "Starting Over" on a static filled AM radio and just catching it in the middle. I knew it was John and thought it sounded like ELO at that point. Later hearing the whole song I thought it had a bit of a 50's sound (Elvis Orbison was how John put it). I bought the album and liked all of John's songs except "Cleanup Time: (pure filler). My favorites were "Watching The Wheels" and "Beautiful Boy". I was pleasantly surprised with the Yoko tracks, especially "Kiss Kiss Kiss". I listened to it constantly and despite what revisionist history says, I remember it receiving a lot of airplay and doing well on the charts. When I got a call from my girlfriend (now wife) in the early morning telling me John had been shot, DOUBLE FANTASY was on my turntable. Over the next week the radio was filled with Lennon and The Beatles and I didn't take the album off the turntable. When I fiinally did listen to it, I cried uncontrollably at "Beautiful Boy". I just couldn't bear to listen to the album and didn't for quite a while. When MILK AND HONEY came out, it was a pleasant surprise. I consider "Nobody Told Me", "I'm Steppin Out" and "Grow Old With Me" to be among John's best songs. It was a fun album for me to listen to and I started listening to DOUBLE FANTASY again. My thinking now is that a combination of John's songs from these two albums would be my favorite of his solo albums. I also very much prefer the Cheap Trick version of "I'm Losing You". It rocks so much more. I think John was ready to do his best stuff since his 1965-67 peak and it sucks so bad that he didn't get the chance. (understatement for sure) Yes '63 and '64 were bad years for John.
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Post by coachbk on Sept 18, 2010 23:08:30 GMT -5
I never said that. 63 and 64 were great years for John. He was (along with Paul) the best pop songwriter of those two years. But he got better in 65 and maintained that rate in 66 and 67. These are the years he really (again along with Paul) took music to a new level. I don't think he ever did as many great songs after that, though he still obviously had great moments.
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Sept 19, 2010 5:21:53 GMT -5
I never said that. 63 and 64 were great years for John. He was (along with Paul) the best pop songwriter of those two years. But he got better in 65 and maintained that rate in 66 and 67. These are the years he really (again along with Paul) took music to a new level. I don't think he ever did as many great songs after that, though he still obviously had great moments. I'd say he had some great stuff in 1970 - 1971.
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Post by vectisfabber on Sept 19, 2010 11:12:23 GMT -5
Double Fantasy is a solid album. Its sales (over here) were badly dented by the fact that it was only half a Lennon album, which is a shame because Yoko's offerings are considerably more commercial, and definitely more listenable, than they had ever been before, and the album as a whole is not dragged down by them - far from it, in fact.
John's songs aren't wholly successful, but Starting Over is a bit of retro which works, and Woman and Beautiful Boy would have been classics even had he not been murdered.
But now, as then, the most poignant thing about this album is that it reflects John showing evidence of having finally achieved the peace of mind which had plainly eluded him since his teens, but without having more than fleeting moments to enjoy it.
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Post by ursamajor on Sept 19, 2010 11:37:37 GMT -5
By far the most successful collaboration by John and Yoko. John pulls out some great tunes and Yoko is getting into the New Wave act going on at the time.
I like all of John's songs although I feel that the demo's of Dear Yoko and Cleanup Time had the songs going into slightly different but better directions, they seemed to be polished up for the release and as a consequence sound watered down.
Yoko's songs are the real treat here, they really compliment John's songs quite well and her vocals are fantastic. Yes, I'm Your Angel and Beautiful Boys slow things down abit but they're not overdone and too long so the album still paces along at these points.
Overall this is my favourite solo album and I acknowledge it's probably not the best even for John but I like the great modern production and great songs throughout this disc. I can listen to this over and over again without getting bored.
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Post by pbirdchat on Sept 19, 2010 11:57:25 GMT -5
I was 21 at the time of Double Fantasy's release. I remember hanging out at our drummers house one weeknight with the radio playing in the background. It was late October and I knew Lennon had been recording some new songs with CHEAP TRICK and the album was due out soon. The DJ announced that he would be playing some new John Lennon in the next hour and I was excited at what we were going to hear!
We paused our conversation after the end of every song to see if the next one was going to have that familiar Lennon voice that we hadn't heard in a long while. Some how we got to chatting and didn't even notice the song STARTING OVER until it was well into the bridge. Hey! Here is is! this is John Lennon. COOL. Neat 50's vibe! The production sounds very modern. He has that echo on his voice again. Sounds like BUN E CARLOS on drums. ( solo drum fill at the end) Yeah that's BUN E! Wow I like it! Of course it wasn't BUN E but we didn't know that then.
My girl friend at the time worked at CO OP tapes and records and she pulled the first copy out of the shipment for me! I always said I had the first copy in Peoria!
I couldn't wait till she got home so I bought an 8 track of it too so I could hear it in the car immediately. The first song to play was Watching the Wheels as 8 tracks had 4 channels that could be pressed. Not sure why this channel played first but I loved the song. SO THAT'S WHAT YOU'VE BEEN UP TO!
I took the 8 track to another friend of mine and waited through the Yoko songs until I"M LOSING YOU came on. This was the Lennon we were waiting for!
I very much liked the album but would have rather had all Lennon songs. But I took Yoko's with a gain of salt because at least I was hearing John again.
After the murder, our band played the following Wednesday night and Day Tripper just wasn't the same to sing any more.
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Post by John S. Damm on Sept 19, 2010 12:50:24 GMT -5
I became a lifetime Beatles' fan in September 1975 which was when John was just a few months into the "Househusband Years." John was my favorite Beatle. Shaved Fish was still on the racks and I spent a lot of time listening to Walls And Bridges trying to imagine what John would currently sound like. The waiting got worse in those pre-internet days when news on John became increasingly scarce. I remember in 1975 through 1976 it was rumored on WLS-AM Chicago that John was about to release a new album. It never came and those rumors ceased into 1977 and 1978. I was desperate for new John like many other fans out there. I thus anticipated no other solo Beatles' release more than Double Fantasy. I was on a country road outside tiny Hanna, Indiana when I first heard "(Just Like)Starting Over" introduced by a clearly excited WLS DJ. It was a beautiful October Saturday afternoon. I had to pull the car over I was that distracted/fascinated. I probably had tears of complete joy. The song was very romantic and poppish. I somehow had in my mind that we were going to get new, freak-out stuff from John. I wasn't disappointed. I gushed to my non-Beatle fan friends about this song saying that the backing reminded me of Barry Manilow with the lush backing vocals including female singers. In hindsight I shouldn't have used the Manilow analogy as my buddies were like, "Dude, that sounds likes it sucks!" They couldn't understand my sheer excitement at having NEW Lennon, even as pop and lush as this new song. I bought the album on first day release in November and I already knew it was 50-50 with Yoko but I didn't care because there were seven(7) new John songs and I told myself that was almost a whole album! 1. "(Just Like) Starting Over": A fine start to the album. Perhaps a little too lush but I waited so long for new Lennon that it was cool to me that John went retro and how could anyone begrudge that intro with just John's naked voice then the strum of a guitar and go! 2. "Kiss Kiss Kiss" : In hindsight a decent song that must have been rather progressive for 1980. I don't know though because I was always a lover of rock and roll and hated "disco" so I don't know where this song would place in the dance music world of late 1980. They mocked it on Chicago FM and AM radio. I read a review of DF before John's murder which praised Yoko songs and rather dismissed John's and while that may have been true in NYC or L.A., that was not even close to being true in the Mid-West, like Chicago. The Yoko material was shunned here. I didn't mind it and "Kiss Kiss Kiss" was okay to me. 3. "Cleanup Time" : I liked this song a lot on first release. Or at least the verses and the story it told. I was not too critical then of some of the lines like, "no friends and yet no enemies, absolutely free." Later I would think that was weird, what's wrong with friends. And the, "center of the circle will always be our home" perhaps alluded to darker things in J & Y's life: their silly reliance on an occult that could not even keep John safe. What were they cleaning up? Before I questioned the lyrics, I fell out with the song believing it filler, I especially thought the refrain was weak. I am back to liking John's singing of the verses but still cringe when he gets to the, "clean-up time" bits. I think it is awesome that brothermichael finds it his favorite. I like to know others think it is cool so maybe I can re-examine it! 4. "Give Me Something": A good song that I like more today than then. This was the first indication to me that something was up with J & Y. The lyrics are bitter, this is no love song. Yoko is one very unsatisfied wife on this song. 5. "I'm Losing You"; This got a ton of FM airplay in Chicago even before the murder. I think the album version is too sterile in the backing and had John released the "Cheap Trick" version in 1980, he would have had a huge hit with this song, maybe not a hit single but a song all the FM stations would have played even more thus boosting album sales. Still, this is a good strong song. I made a mental note even in 1980 that like Yoko's song before it, John doesn't sound very happy. 6. "I'm Moving On": Another in the "our relationship sucks" songs that to my ears belie all the lovey-dovey stuff put out in the 1980 interviews. The lyrics are about Yoko moving on, it is too late for reconciliation. Good song and more honest than I think J & Y intended. I think the music on the album is much more honest or frank than John and Yoko were in their highly controlled media appearances in 1980. I like that though because conflict is part of all love relationships, right guys? Yoko's calling John "phony" would years later give me chills as that is the exact same word used by MDC in describing John and which fueled MDC's action towards John. An unfortunate coincidence. 7. "Beautiful Boy (Darling Boy)": A beautiful song that choked me up after the murder. I liked it a lot before the murder but afterwards I almost couldn't listen to it. Watch Paul listening to it on "Desert Isle Disc" and try not to cry. 8. "Watching the Wheels": My favorite song off the album then and today. What a poignant, sad song. To me it has always been Part 2 of "Nobody Loves You(When You're Down And Out)" from W & B. I love John's weary voice. Still, the lyrics betray, in my opinion, a man still not fully happy. What kind of life is it, "watching shadows on the wall?" John says in one breathe that he is, "no longer riding on the merry-go-round," yet he doesn't move away from that merry-go-round as he is just sitting there still, "watching the wheels go round and round." Break free John, don't watch shadows or spinning wheels: go live life to the fullest. Still, a great, great song that haunted me after the murder. It haunts me today. 9. "Yes, I'm Your Angel": I liked this a lot in 1980 pre-murder as it was light-hearted and fun, two things not associated with Yoko Ono. Hard after the murder. 10. "Woman": I absolutely loved this song pre-murder as it sounded like the old John to me at least sound-wise. The lyrics are very post-Beatle John but what a beautiful, lush, poppy recording. After the murder it became poignant for a different reason(like many songs here did). I remember hearing in 1980 that John got sued by Eric Carmen for this song pre-murder but I can't find actual proof of that: that it mirrored a song by The Raspberries? Does anyone remember that? 11. "Beautiful Boys": This was actually my favorite Yoko song followed by "Hard Times Are Over." I love the sound effects going on in this song. Haunting. Insightful by Yoko. 12. "Dear Yoko" : Bouncy fun. Hey, if John starts the album like Roy Orbison and Elvis, why not finish his contributions like Buddy Holly! I absolutely love the version on Lennon Anthology and will probably love the "stripped down" version coming out! Probably my 6th favorite out of the seven John songs but still fun and loving. 13. "Every Man Has a Woman Who Loves Him": I like this well enough and I like the vocal inter-play between J & Y. I find the version John sings solo very boring. It puts me to sleep. 14. "Hard Times Are Over" : I liked this a lot in 1980 pre-murder and yeah, it grew much harder to take post-murder. Yoko doing gospel is interesting. Isn't John's voice to be heard in this too? It is okay. I must admit that once "Dear Yoko" was over, the air kind of went out of the balloon when playing this album. Sure, I listened to the last two songs but I knew there was no more John unless I flipped the album back to Side 1! I played the 2000 remastered version last night and was very pleasantly surprised at how complete the whole album sounded to me. Sorry to sound like a broken record but Double Fantasy has always been hard for me to grasp and to properly assess because of John's murder. For those of us who played this album repeatedly before John's murder, it necessarily took on a whole different meaning or feel afterwards. At least it did for me and judging by some comments above, with others here too. Last night DF sounded amazingly vital and fresh to me. I sometimes worry that I like it out of guilt because of what happened on December 8, 1980. Last night I listened to an album that I flat out enjoyed. Maybe 30 years on makes one focus on just the music but still......
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Sept 19, 2010 14:28:37 GMT -5
JSD, it's always great to hear your song-by-song analysis. Thanks! I wanted to touch on a couple of things: What were they cleaning up? I remember Yoko in one of the 1980 interviews mentioning CLEANUP TIME and saying "It's now cleanup time, and we really are cleaning our bodies". Don't recall the full comment at the moment, but the jist I took from this talk was that they were trying to be more health-conscious, and lay off the poisons as much as they could. At least that's what was conveyed during the interview. [/b]: Another in the "our relationship sucks" songs that to my ears belie all the lovey-dovey stuff put out in the 1980 interviews. [/quote] I think maybe it's that you overstate what they put out in the 1980 interviews. They do talk frequently about it being very, very hard working on this relationship. I specifically remember John himself saying those words ("- and working on this relationship with Yoko is very hard"). He elaborated that it was like watering a plant, nurturing it, and "keeping the flies off' (quote). So maybe the inference that "it's all bed and roses" is a mistaken inference. Right, it is. And you certainly make some great observations here. I've always noted it myself as well... it does give us more pause to think. I believe the two were happy together, but John perhaps moreso than Yoko at that time, who probably had more doubts and reservations. This song is Yoko telling John to "stuff it", regarding his plea that "I'm Losing You!". If you take the two songs together as a dialogue, John asks Yoko why "she still has to carry that cross?", and "I know I hurt you then, but that was way back when"... and it seems to be to THIS plea that Yoko stubbornly retorts: "You didn't have to tell a white lie, you know you scored me for life, you know I'll see through your jive!". Is she referring to that incident which occurred way back in the '70s? I know you like this song the best on the album, JSD, so what strikes me as kind of odd is that I wonder if you're taking the wrong meaning out of it? Oh, I could be wrong myself here ... but to me it clearly is John saying he's NOT sad. That even though everyone else calls him crazy, says he's wasting his life, the point of the song is that they're all wrong; he's actually quite happy and content doing what he's doing, and that he's doing perfectly fine, so don't sweat it and worry about him! And in this scenario I think it's like you're one of those people he's singing about, who's telling him he shouldn't be content! Meanwhile Lennon is chuckling to you, JSD, as you "give him all kinds of warnings to save him from 'ruin', or all kinds of advice designed to enlighten him". What do you think?
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Post by John S. Damm on Sept 19, 2010 18:34:37 GMT -5
I remember Yoko in one of the 1980 interviews mentioning CLEANUP TIME and saying "It's now cleanup time, and we really are cleaning our bodies". Don't recall the full comment at the moment, but the jist I took from this talk was that they were trying to be more health-conscious, and lay off the poisons as much as they could. At least that's what was conveyed during the interview. I think John discussed the same thing. John and Yoko were funny about their efforts to be health-conscious as they had no problem with smoking like chimneys and John even cursed out Steve McQueen for getting cancer! Cancer was a state of mind to John. George Harrison might have set him straight on that twenty years later! I don't think the Lennons have 'fessed up to how close they came to divorce in early 1980. You know the accounts, Joe, that Yoko was very unhappy with a withdrawn, always stay-at-home John who sat and watched shadows all day. No one knew what mood John would be in daily. Sean has told us that much in his RS interview: living in terror of his dad's moods. I don't blame Yoko. I think the lyrics to "I'm Moving On" are very honest. The start of the Bermuda 1980 trip was a disaster: Yoko refused to fly over, John was pissed(wrote "I'm Losing You") and per some accounts, Yoko was ready to pull the plug on the marriage. Suddenly John writes a bunch of songs, telephones Yoko that he's ready to record again and Yoko is relieved because a recording John is a busy John and a busy John is a creative John not just sitting around all of the time. Now I don't condone all of Yoko's actions: those trips she had John go on to South Africa and Hong Kong, traveling in a certain direction, at certain times(which was admitted to by them) were bizarre. Why would Yoko not tell John to get on a plane and go see Mimi and Julian in the U.K. as years went by after John got his green card but he was wasting his time going on those stupid trips based on astrology. Lost time in my book. I still think though that Yoko's feet were planted in more reality than John's. I know that "Watching The Wheels" was aimed at an 18 year old JSD wondering where the hell John Lennon was and why he wasn't making new music. It was also aimed at you, Joe, who was wondering the same thing and Mick Jagger, Paul McCartney, George Harrison and millions of others. It is kind of cool to know that a John Lennon song is aimed at oneself! ;D In my post above, I'm not advocating that John should have gone back to the rock star game when I said he should go live his life to the fullest. That's what we all wanted and I admit that we fans and John's contemporaries were selfish in our desire to see him perform again. His return to music also got him killed. My point is that sitting around watching shadows on the wall is not living either. It is pathetic. I think "Watching The Wheels" has tinges of sadness in it. But John is ultimately right, if he wants to sit in the Dakota all day, just stare out the window or sleep for days on end and be moody, that is his right. Whatever gets one through the night. I just think it is sad and the song saddens me. But it is a great song nonetheless. I don't want to argue though because I am seeing Double Fantasy as a great album in its entirety for perhaps the first time. That is no slam on Yoko because I always liked some of her songs more than "Clean-Up Time" and "Dear Yoko." I think DF is a complex album about a complex couple and it is not some twee "domestic album" as its critics like to sneer. It is a complex dialog between a complex man and woman.
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Sept 19, 2010 19:15:51 GMT -5
I don't want to argue though I hope you won't think of this as arguing (at least not this time). Just think of it as two fans having a courteous discussion. Without a doubt. I still know people who smoke but they don't want to drink soda for health reasons, or whatever. I guess all J&Y were doing was trying to get health ier. Nicotine, from what I hear (never smoked myself) is a tough one to break. But you cut where you can. The thing is, I just don't understand why they'd feel they had to "craft a fake Romeo and Juliet Image". If they were faking everyone out, then I'm wrong. But I could just as easily see them making their LP about breaking up as being together. But DOUBLE FANTASY in itself is about the complex nature of relationship and being middle-aged (where you and I are at now!); it's not just some campaign for a "flawless marriage", I don't think. I didn't read Sean's RS interview so I didn't know he felt that way. Yes, I think John was a moody person and we know of his ways all his life. But I do think he was happiest in those last years, personally. Some people on the inside like to portray things as "bad", others mostly say they were not. I still feel that if John really was miserable, he would have said so in his songs and in public, just as he always had with POB and even in The Beatles. Do I know for certain? Of course not. But do you feel any more "positive" songs are honest? What about Yoko singing "I'm Your Angel," or "Hard Times Are Over", or "Beautiful Boys"? So you said it yourself - John wrote that he felt he was losing Yoko, with "I'm Losing You"! So there is no deception or faux romance or pretense about their marriage here. Well, you know the answer to that. It's only lost time if John felt it was lost time. Doesn't matter what you or I think. Well, John said he was singing to his own age group on this album (as opposed to us kids), but it's not that important. I think you're only partly correct that this was a song "for people who were wonderiing where he was and why he wasn't making music". I also -- and mainly -- think it was a song to tell people he's fine, he's doing okay, and he likes what he's been doing. And that no matter how "crazy" or how many times people are "lost in confusion and asking questions", he is doing his own thing, and who are we to say how he should better spend his time and urge him to "be back on the ball with the Big Time that he's been missing". You know, maybe it's not as "pathetic" to a man who's merely taking a much-valued break after performing and running 'round the world like a star for 20 years. Think of it that way. But that's how you feel about it. Meanwhile, John assures you that "he's just sitting here watching the wheels go round, and I really love to watch them roll". He also assures you that he's actually "doing fine" with watching shadows on the wall. One thing -- just as John wasn't literally baking bread all day long, or just as he didn't really 'never' touch his guitar .. he also didn't sit in the Dakota all day, just stare out the window or sleep for days on end. AGREED>>>!
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Post by brothermichael on Sept 20, 2010 21:55:50 GMT -5
It was late October and I knew Lennon had been recording some new songs with CHEAP TRICK and the album was due out soon. Sounds like BUN E CARLOS on drums. ( solo drum fill at the end) Yeah that's BUN E! Wow I like it! Of course it wasn't BUN E but we didn't know that then. I'm listening to "Taxman, Mr. Thief" as I read your post, and thinking if only. Just imagine Cheap Trick backing Lennon across DF (including Zander on backing vocals.)
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Post by John S. Damm on Sept 20, 2010 22:57:35 GMT -5
By the way, the 2000 remastered Double Fantasy sounds fantastic with cool bonus material like "Walking On Thin Ice" and a poignant John demo "Help Me To Help Myself."
I was floored by the sonics. I can't believe this Lennon and Ono album was re-issued ten years ago. This last decade has flown past me and in fact bitten me in the ass!
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Post by coachbk on Sept 21, 2010 21:13:11 GMT -5
By the way, the 2000 remastered Double Fantasy sounds fantastic with cool bonus material like "Walking On Thin Ice" and a poignant John demo "Help Me To Help Myself." "Walking On Thin Ice" is my all-time favorite Yoko track! Very new wave verging on an early techno sound. Great avant garde guitar sounds!
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Post by acebackwords on Sept 22, 2010 13:01:43 GMT -5
By the way, the 2000 remastered Double Fantasy sounds fantastic with cool bonus material like "Walking On Thin Ice" and a poignant John demo "Help Me To Help Myself." "Walking On Thin Ice" is my all-time favorite Yoko track! Very new wave verging on an early techno sound. Great avant garde guitar sounds! A great track. And it says something about Lennon that that was the last piece of music he was working on during his last days. It really looked like he was working up towards another peak ('sigh'). Great scene in Seaman's book, Lennon is in the studio joyously over-dubbing guitars and effects to the track. They invite David Geffen to come down to the studio and as soon as he walks in they blast out "Walking on Thin Ice" at top volume. Even Yoko was smiling. And Lennon excitedly talked of releasing it as their next single and was already planning promotion and advertising for the thing. And then, of course, the hideous irony of that cassette -- "Walking on Thin Ice" -- being in his pocket on the day he was shot. There really was a lot of weird psychic/occult type "coincidences" going on in the land of Lennono.
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Post by ursamajor on Sept 22, 2010 15:23:08 GMT -5
Note that many references to John's death use the word assassination or assassinated instead of murdered.
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Post by acebackwords on Sept 22, 2010 15:47:40 GMT -5
Note that many references to John's death use the word assassination or assassinated instead of murdered. I dunno, is one more noble or something. The nut that shot him recently said at his latest parole hearing that he was also considering shooting Johnny Carson and Elizabeth Taylor. Would that have been considered assassinations, too? I guess I'm just curious where the line is drawn. Did that nut Phil Spector assassinate the woman he brought back to his mansion?
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lowbasso
A Hard Day's Knight
Posts: 2,776
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Post by lowbasso on Sept 22, 2010 18:41:51 GMT -5
Note that many references to John's death use the word assassination or assassinated instead of murdered. I always thought the word assassination was used in reference to a political figure who was killed or murdered. That is the usual definition in the dictionary.
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Post by acebackwords on Sept 22, 2010 19:11:40 GMT -5
Note that many references to John's death use the word assassination or assassinated instead of murdered. I always thought the word assassination was used in reference to a political figure who was killed or murdered. That is the usual definition in the dictionary. Makes sense. I guess that shows the cultural/political status that Lennon attained. Most rock stars OD in seedy hotel rooms. Lennon was assassinated.
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Sept 23, 2010 5:12:49 GMT -5
The nut that shot him recently said at his latest parole hearing that he was also considering shooting Johnny Carson and Elizabeth Taylor. He had a pretty long list, from the stuff I've read. I believe Paul McCartney was also on it. He just wanted to kill "a big somebody". In the end, his identification with John and the "karma" this nut felt about it was what took precedence.
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nine
Very Clean
Posts: 840
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Post by nine on Sept 23, 2010 6:12:07 GMT -5
The nut that shot him recently said at his latest parole hearing that he was also considering shooting Johnny Carson and Elizabeth Taylor. He had a pretty long list, from the stuff I've read. I believe Paul McCartney was also on it. He just wanted to kill "a big somebody". In the end, his identification with John and the "karma" this nut felt about it was what took precedence. Lennon was also more accessible.
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Post by vectisfabber on Sept 23, 2010 18:10:04 GMT -5
I dislike the word "assassination" in this context, because it almost confers an air of respectability to what was no more than a stupid, pointless murder.
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