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Post by Joe Karlosi on Mar 13, 2012 10:37:42 GMT -5
Good Lord. I picked up a DVD bootleg which featured many home movies of George's 1974 tour put to music from his concerts. This has been a period of history I never tuned into very much. I couldn't believe how poor everything sounded... George was truly terrible and I'm not at all surprised he got trashed and was reluctant to ever do a proper tour again for the rest of his life after this.
Did anyone here see George when he was hoarse on tour in '74? I would have had a fit seeing those shows, and even moreso due to the fact that George decided to change all the words and arrangements to so many of the songs!
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Post by sayne on Mar 13, 2012 21:17:49 GMT -5
I saw him at the Forum in Los Angeles. There were quite a few things that made this an uneventful show. First, it was a matinee. It's hard to get up for a rock show in the daylight. Second. The arena wasn't full at all. At the time the lights went out, we were still expecting more to come in, so it there was no exciting buildup to show time. Third, the voice. Fourth, the new arrangements. Fifth, the lack of "hits."
It certainly wasn't a splendid night guaranteed for all.
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Post by debjorgo on Mar 13, 2012 22:33:00 GMT -5
I have no problem with George singing "While my guitar tries to smile" in concert. You're seeing a rock god in person. A damn Beatle in the flesh for chiminies sake. I think the bigger downer was probably the indian music at the begining.
What he should have done was, say, " This is what you get, I'll be around again next year".
Then, the next year, play smaller arenas and work on the act. He would either raise to the bigger halls or find his nitch in the smaller ones. Paul did this and was playing MSG by '76.
He was in a bigger act but he quit that one.
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Post by sayne on Mar 14, 2012 22:08:23 GMT -5
I have no problem with George singing "While my guitar tries to smile" in concert. You're seeing a rock god in person. A damn Beatle in the flesh for chiminies sake. I think the bigger downer was probably the indian music at the begining. What he should have done was, say, " This is what you get, I'll be around again next year". He sort of came close to saying that. He wanted the ads to say something like, "If you don't like Indian music, don't come."
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Mar 14, 2012 22:51:28 GMT -5
He sort of came close to saying that. He wanted the ads to say something like, "If you don't like Indian music, don't come." If he had done that he would have lost 95% of his audience. I think George had a hell of a nerve with that attitude, but I do admire him being more confident in those '70s days. Perhaps as a result of this he became rather self-conscious and paranoid after the failure of the tour, and always was more shy and less confident. If you see the Albert Hall Concert from 1992, near the end George reacts to the applause thusly: "Thank you, you're all so nice... I get paranoid that you're not gonna like me".
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Post by debjorgo on Mar 14, 2012 22:52:51 GMT -5
I have no problem with George singing "While my guitar tries to smile" in concert. You're seeing a rock god in person. A damn Beatle in the flesh for chiminies sake. I think the bigger downer was probably the indian music at the begining. What he should have done was, say, " This is what you get, I'll be around again next year". He sort of came close to saying that. He wanted the ads to say something like, "If you don't like Indian music, don't come." Fair enough. Where I have the problem with George is that he quit touring, probably because of the criticism. You're going to get that with an indian band playing arenas. In an arena, you expect a top notch show. When you're lured into a stupor for an hour and then the actual show comes on and it's not spectacular, people walk out. George could not have toured and played arenas with that act in '75. He didn't tour and play the smaller venues, so apparently, he really wasn't intent on touring with an indian band. So what was his point?
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Post by sayne on Mar 16, 2012 22:37:48 GMT -5
He sort of came close to saying that. He wanted the ads to say something like, "If you don't like Indian music, don't come." I also seem to recall that even Ravi thought George should play more of his hits.
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Post by ursamajor on Mar 16, 2012 23:51:53 GMT -5
I think he toured at the wrong time behind an average album.
He should have toured straight after Bangla Desh playing ATMP songs + Beatles songs and then continued with the Material World World Tour when LITMW was released.
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Post by John S. Damm on Mar 17, 2012 0:43:05 GMT -5
The Indian music was more important to George than Rock and Roll as he made abundantly clear throughout the years.
In the film LITMW, George has many guests over to Friar Park around 1980/1981 I'd guess and he takes his movie camera around and interviews several people, including Ravi Shankar, on the importance of promoting "World Music." Ravi explains to an approving George(still behind the camera) that it is through his music that Rhavi can find God consciousness.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 17, 2012 3:20:25 GMT -5
I would have liked to have seen George do Hoarse To Water live..
I'll just have to make do with the Sam Brown version....
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Post by mikev on Mar 17, 2012 6:55:41 GMT -5
I would have liked to have seen George do Hoarse To Water live.. I'll just have to make do with the Sam Brown version.... GOD did that song come in under the radar without a whimper. I remember thinking "wow-what a great swan tune", then you heard almost nothing. Probably just the way George wanted it- thus it just stayed under Holland's album. But I think it should have been included on Brainwashed along with the redo of This Guitar Can't Keep From Crying. He was basically playing AND singing on other people's records. I still haven't heard the Jim Capaldi cut.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 17, 2012 7:29:46 GMT -5
Good Lord. I picked up a DVD bootleg which featured many home movies of George's 1974 tour put to music from his concerts. This has been a period of history I never tuned into very much. I couldn't believe how poor everything sounded... George was truly terrible and I'm not at all surprised he got trashed and was reluctant to ever do a proper tour again for the rest of his life after this. Did anyone here see George when he was hoarse on tour in '74? I would have had a fit seeing those shows, and even moreso due to the fact that George decided to change all the words and arrangements to so many of the songs! At least George attempted to do a solo tour unlike John who did 2 extremely amateur solo shows on the 1 day and basically never did a concert again because he realised after all those Beatle years he was still a very amateur musician. Imagine going through the whole Beatle thing and at the other end of it still not be able to keep time without some help... No wonder he took 5 years off..
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Post by mikev on Mar 17, 2012 8:20:01 GMT -5
Good Lord. I picked up a DVD bootleg which featured many home movies of George's 1974 tour put to music from his concerts. This has been a period of history I never tuned into very much. I couldn't believe how poor everything sounded... George was truly terrible and I'm not at all surprised he got trashed and was reluctant to ever do a proper tour again for the rest of his life after this. Did anyone here see George when he was hoarse on tour in '74? I would have had a fit seeing those shows, and even moreso due to the fact that George decided to change all the words and arrangements to so many of the songs! At least George attempted to do a solo tour unlike John who did 2 extremely amateur solo shows on the 1 day and basically never did a concert again because he realised after all those Beatle years he was still a very amateur musician. Imagine going through the whole Beatle thing and at the other end of it still not be able to keep time without some help... No wonder he took 5 years off.. While John was always very "unpolished", he was not an amateur. You can't play that many concerts , gigs, and live BBC and hours of recording sessions and be an amateur.
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Mar 17, 2012 9:00:38 GMT -5
At least George attempted to do a solo tour unlike John who did 2 extremely amateur solo shows on the 1 day and basically never did a concert again because he realised after all those Beatle years he was still a very amateur musician. Imagine going through the whole Beatle thing and at the other end of it still not be able to keep time without some help... No wonder he took 5 years off.. John took the 5 years off to raise Sean (you yourself even brought up that fact in order to advance one of your other points in the recent Ringo thread!). So you want to start a "John vs. George" thing, do ya? Let me tell you about being an amateur musician -- George Harrison was a terrible lead guitarist. On most of the audio session outtakes from the Beatles, George cannot even manage the simplest of guitar solos. As far as I'm concerned, Paul McCartney was a much superior guitar player and it should have been George who played bass (though I'm not sure how well his fingers would have moved along the strings there either). When George played live he almost always had Eric Clapton or someone else handle his solos. This is evident in Japan 1991 and The Royal Albert Hall 1992. He couldn't handle them himself, and whenever he DID they were very difficult-sounding. It was great to see John Lennon appear on the Rolling Stones' Rock N Roll Circus in 1968, and it was a very courageous thing for him to undertake his LIVE PEACE IN TORONTO gig in 1969 while The Beatles were still a group and he had to appear without them. Lennon did other benefits and live shows in 1969 and 1971, and the ONE TO ONE show in 1972. But then he had his "lost weekend" in 1974, retired from 1975-1980... and then was shot dead. But he was talking about a tour in 1981. So give John a break when it comes to touring. He didn't live that long but he did shows in between anyway. On the other hand, George Harrison was a quiet and lazy ex-Beatle who spent too much of his time after 1976 gardening and going to the car races. It is pathetic that he never did a proper World Tour after his excellent CLOUD NINE album and WILBURYS projects. (The best he could do was a tiny Japan tour in 1991 but had to hold Eric Clapton's hand to do so). He had great material from this period, but was afraid to tour because he knew the DARK HOARSE fiasco sucked. Then he never released another studio LP after the successful CLOUD NINE (we had to wait 15 years until after he died to see BRAINWASHED). I have to say, in terms of George's invisibility, he was the most expendable Beatle.
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Post by John S. Damm on Mar 17, 2012 12:00:03 GMT -5
Joe, you might enjoy the Simon Leng book While My Guitar Gently Weeps which discusses in length George's guitar playing.
George clearly did not want to be a guitar hero or gunslinger and that title even came to bore and irritate Eric Clapton and other guitarists who were known for long, extended power solos in the late 60's, early 70's.
George's guitar is like a second vocalist in his music. I read Leng and he changed my views on George as a guitarist. I went back to the view I held as a young fan based on what I had read in the mid-70's when George was still considered a great guitarist and that opinion was developed by his fellow musicians.
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Post by anyoneanyhow on Mar 17, 2012 12:18:19 GMT -5
Gee, Joe, we know you don't care for George much, but you've got a number of threads going here to rant on George. Think about reading Leng's book, it's a good perspective on what George brought to the Beatles and beyond.
Personally I think George is brilliant. The solo's that he wrote for many Lennon-McCartney songs are classics and increase the song's stature.
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Mar 17, 2012 12:39:56 GMT -5
Gee, Joe, we know you don't care for George much, but you've got a number of threads going here to rant on George. Think about reading Leng's book, it's a good perspective on what George brought to the Beatles and beyond. Personally I think George is brilliant. The solo's that he wrote for many Lennon-McCartney songs are classics and increase the song's stature. I can understand how some would get upset about my George comments. Let me say - before this gets out of control - that I like George's music, both with the Beatles and Solo. I have every one of his albums. I do enjoy his guitar playing with the Beatles on record, as well as his solo career. But all of that is worked out in the studio... when it came to playing 'live', George botched up many a solo on stage and on the outtakes. I also tend to admire George's religious and spiritual convictions which I can relate to. If it seems like I'm ranting against George, oh well. This particular one was in reply to the remarks against John. When I feel the need to voice an opinion like that, I will. If they all tend to be happening all together in a clump at the same time, that's just the way it worked out. But I am allowed to have a "least favorite Beatle", and for me it's George. Doesn't mean I despise him or anything, but I do think he was too quiet and reclusive in his solo career for far too long. I also think he gets absolved from a lot because he is "the Quiet One".
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Post by debjorgo on Mar 17, 2012 13:08:57 GMT -5
But all of that is worked out in the studio... when it came to playing 'live', George botched up many a solo on stage and on the outtakes. Wonder if that's why John took the Get Back solo.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 18, 2012 1:01:57 GMT -5
Gee, Joe, we know you don't care for George much, but you've got a number of threads going here to rant on George. Ty songs are classics and increase the song's stature. Good observation........he is becoming rabid..... George was a much better musician than John but John was a much better singer and songwriter than George.. John's live career was pretty ordinary whatever the excuses, that's indisputable, the evidence is out there, that's apart from all the evidence that suggests John was a part time wack-job.
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Post by Steve Marinucci on Mar 18, 2012 1:06:08 GMT -5
Gee, Joe, we know you don't care for George much, but you've got a number of threads going here to rant on George. Ty songs are classics and increase the song's stature. Good observation........he is becoming rabid..... George was a much better musician than John but John was a much better singer and songwriter than George.. John's live career was pretty ordinary whatever the excuses, that's indisputable, the evidence is out there, that's apart from all the evidence that suggests John was a part time wack-job. Not sure I agree with the songwriting part. John wrote a lot more songs than George, but ounce for ounce, I think George's measured up.
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Post by ursamajor on Mar 18, 2012 5:16:31 GMT -5
Good observation........he is becoming rabid..... George was a much better musician than John but John was a much better singer and songwriter than George.. John's live career was pretty ordinary whatever the excuses, that's indisputable, the evidence is out there, that's apart from all the evidence that suggests John was a part time wack-job. Not sure I agree with the songwriting part. John wrote a lot more songs than George, but ounce for ounce, I think George's measured up. That's a big call Steve, George wrote some classics in his career but he didn't write enough to be in the same league as John, IMO.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 18, 2012 5:31:43 GMT -5
Not sure I agree with the songwriting part. John wrote a lot more songs than George, but ounce for ounce, I think George's measured up. That's a big call Steve, George wrote some classics in his career but he didn't write enough to be in the same league as John, IMO. It just goes to show how varied people's opinions can be when talking about the same subject, it seems, there is no right answer. Hoarses for coarses...... in this thread anyway....
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Post by ursamajor on Mar 18, 2012 6:10:42 GMT -5
That's a big call Steve, George wrote some classics in his career but he didn't write enough to be in the same league as John, IMO. It just goes to show how varied people's opinions can be when talking about the same subject, it seems, there is no right answer. Hoarses for coarses...... in this thread anyway.... Variation is the spice of life.
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Mar 18, 2012 6:28:12 GMT -5
George was a better songwriter than Ringo. But in terms of the AMOUNT of good songs, he was not quite up to John's (or Paul's) level. I'd say that HERE COMES THE SUN and SOMETHING are as good as anything Lennon/McCartney ever did... but those are very few and far between...
I don't think either George nor John were great guitarists. I didn't say John was better than George, though I did mention Paul.... Paul should have been their lead guitarist. Paul was the best musician.
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Post by John S. Damm on Mar 18, 2012 10:46:01 GMT -5
Leng's book also fires one up on George's post-Beatles songwriting. That book inspired me as a fan like no book has since one of my first books, The Beatles Forever from 1977.
Olivia and Dhani should promote that book on the official George website. Leng is critical of some songs and wasn't real keen on ET although he liked how George revived his love of Soul Music on that album.
My biggest disappointment of the 1974 Tour is the substantial change of lyrics by George. As a Dylan fan, I have been to many concerts where it becomes a game to guess what Bob is doing as the arrangements are so different than the record and I am sure that he takes artistic liberty with some lyrics but what George was doing with "Something" or "In My Life" was so profound as to really detract from the songs.
Dylan can get away with changing some lines on "Tangled Up In Blue" because that is a story and Dylan has actually improved the story in some live versions but "Something" is a fixed loved song with more limited, but wonderfully evocative lyrics, and a change like, "When something's in the way, we move it" just does not work in my opinion. And George did it every night it would seem. I've heard Dylan play it very straight with a song's lyric one concert but the next take some liberties.
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Post by theman on Mar 30, 2012 22:52:29 GMT -5
Interesting how the Leng book takes a different look at the Dark Horse tour, citing numerous positive reviews from a variety of cities. Since that was just a little before my 2nd generation fandom, I'm just going by what I've read, since I wasn't there. But the reviews dont support that the DH tour was as bad as Rolling Stone might have suggested.
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