Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2011 5:06:59 GMT -5
probably.............no one else has complained
|
|
|
Post by Joe Karlosi on Jan 12, 2011 6:14:47 GMT -5
*How Do You Sleep at night, ya c**tLOL!!! ;D Oh, it wasn't part of the song -- it was just an ad lib in the studio. And funny as hell IMO. Why? Because the song was focused about Paulie and we shoud never have beatles bickering? No, I like that we see John as he really was in the studio. This includes also where John swears at an engineer nd uses the 'F Word', too. Should that have been cut out of the film also?
|
|
|
Post by Joe Karlosi on Jan 12, 2011 6:26:10 GMT -5
The HP (Hewlett-Packard) cloud like the one they are creating for Paul. Maybe John's song to Yoko could have been thus: "La La La La Lovely Yoko.... with the lovely flowers in her hair. La La La La Lovely Yoko... with the lovely flowers in her hair. (Hee Heee Heeee Heeee)." END.
|
|
|
Post by Joe Karlosi on Jan 12, 2011 6:36:08 GMT -5
Listing adjectives (schizophrenic, egocentric, paranoic) is NOT presenting "elaborate" lyrics. What book of supposed "facts" did you get this out of? It's only your opinion and I disagree. I think they're some of John's more interesting lyrics, and using different adjectives to convey your feelings in song is every bit a part of good songwriting as anything else. You prefer words like "crabalocker"? Whatever. I think GIMME SOME TRUTH is a biting, angry, sarcastic masterpeice, with a gut-wrenching vocal. You're funny. First you say you don't like John just listing adjectives; you want more "wordplay"... then when John uses something you have to think more about ("In the middle of a cloud")... you have a problem with that as well. A 'cloud' in this case could mean when he's low, depressed, in a mental state of upset. Unless of course you and others always want everything "spelled out", and would have preferred a lyric like "In the middle of a funk"... (And to think there have been times when I'VE been accused of always having to have straight-forward lyrics spelled out for me! )
|
|
|
Post by Joe Karlosi on Jan 12, 2011 6:43:07 GMT -5
Me too - HDYS was one of the final nails in the coffin with John (in retrospect) as far as I was concerned. John seemed to set out to alienate everyone - famiily, friends, colleagues, fans - from the period through to Imagine, and the petty minded spite of HDYS was one of the final, and biggest elements of that. I find it deeply depressing that one of John's least admirable qualities - his ability to be publicly and unnecessarily (and untruthfully) nasty - is paradoxically something which leads people to say oh how wonderful he was. In this instance he was a nasty piece of work, and HDYS does him no credit at all. I think it does him a ton of credit. And you got it right about it leading people like me to say how wonderful he was. John's honesty and humanity -- including his negative side and all -- is part of what made Lennon more "real" as a person to me. And it's not like John did not have a good heart and didn't apologize or try to "better" himself in life with regard to that chip on his shoulder, throughout his life. He made good on things, too.
|
|
|
Post by Joe Karlosi on Jan 12, 2011 6:46:54 GMT -5
I love HOW DO YOU SLEEP - it really stops playing subtle games like dandy Paulie and instead, just bitch-slaps its target right in the open. For 'bitch-slap' read childish, sneering, mean-spirited and nasty. 'Bitch-slap' would imply venom, energy and vitriol. 'How do you sleep' struggles to get out of bed, is musically insipid and is climaxed by a whiny slide guitar solo from George. A pox on it. Sorry, but it was even more childish of baby Paulie to "sneak around" with his attacks on John in song. I have a new stance on HOW DO YOU SLEEP -- I'm glad it pisses people off. You know why? That was supposed to be the idea! Glad it strikes a nerve!
|
|
wooltonian
Very Clean
"Football isn't a matter of life and death - it's much more important than that." Bill Shankly.
Posts: 796
|
Post by wooltonian on Jan 12, 2011 7:05:21 GMT -5
I have a new stance on HOW DO YOU SLEEP -- I'm glad it pisses people off. You know why? That was supposed to be the idea! Glad it strikes a nerve! A proper 'bitch-slap' would piss me off. 'How do you sleep' just mildly irritates -- it's more of a 'wuss-prod'.
|
|
|
Post by vectisfabber on Jan 12, 2011 7:13:42 GMT -5
I'm not especially put out by John's studio eye-waterer, but when he says in later years that he didn't really mean it with HDYS, watching that bit of film makes me think, "Er, yes you did - at the time, anyway."
|
|
|
Post by Joe Karlosi on Jan 12, 2011 10:38:55 GMT -5
I'm not especially put out by John's studio eye-waterer, but when he says in later years that he didn't really mean it with HDYS, watching that bit of film makes me think, "Er, yes you did - at the time, anyway." That's how life is. Well, at least with me too. You sometimes mellow on things as the years go on, let bygones be bygones. See things differently, maybe even later realize (as in John's case) that he was probably more attacking himself, using his resentment against Paul. If you're talking about John's OLD GREY WHISTLE TEST 1975 interview, he just sounds like he regrets HDYS in hindsight, but then tries to say it doesn't matter what people think; what matters is how John & Paul feel about these things, and "we're okay". In the end, John and Paul got past all that. This is why I can have some fun with it just as some row they had once upon a time, as dear best friends sometimes do.
|
|
|
Post by Joe Karlosi on Jan 12, 2011 10:40:15 GMT -5
A proper 'bitch-slap' would piss me off. 'How do you sleep' just mildly irritates -- it's more of a 'wuss-prod'. Heh Heh. Well, you can't get more "wussified" than indirectly sending subtle disguised hints like Paul did, so the public can't really be sure.
|
|
|
Post by John S. Damm on Jan 12, 2011 12:50:13 GMT -5
For 'bitch-slap' read childish, sneering, mean-spirited and nasty. 'Bitch-slap' would imply venom, energy and vitriol. 'How do you sleep' struggles to get out of bed, is musically insipid and is climaxed by a whiny slide guitar solo from George. A pox on it. Sorry, but it was even more childish of baby Paulie to "sneak around" with his attacks on John in song. I have a new stance on HOW DO YOU SLEEP -- I'm glad it pisses people off. You know why? That was supposed to be the idea! Glad it strikes a nerve! This is amazing to me, that some of our well-respected friends here are offended and actually mad at John about "How Do You Sleep." Taste is an individual thing so I completely understand a person not liking a particular song for some reason but here I think it is the subject matter of the lyrics(an attack on Paul) ticking some people off, not so much the song itself. If John was singing HDYS to Richard Nixon, let's say, I think all the song's detractors would not object to it. They still may not like the song but they wouldn't be mad or disappointed in John for writing and recording it. Interesting the division this song causes 40 years later.
|
|
|
Post by joeyself on Jan 12, 2011 13:13:44 GMT -5
This is amazing to me, that some of our well-respected friends here are offended and actually mad at John about "How Do You Sleep." Taste is an individual thing so I completely understand a person not liking a particular song for some reason but here I think it is the subject matter of the lyrics(an attack on Paul) ticking some people off, not so much the song itself. If John was singing HDYS to Richard Nixon, let's say, I think all the song's detractors would not object to it. They still may not like the song but they wouldn't be mad or disappointed in John for writing and recording it. Interesting the division this song causes 40 years later. Had he been talking about Nixon and speaking falsely and/or hypcritically, it would irritate me as well. Two songs earlier, Lennon is pleading to "Gimme Some Truth" and then he goes off on a tirade based largely in fiction. My main beef with it is that he released this bit of dirty laundry for us to be chatting about 40 years later. It became part of his "permanent record." Had it been an outtake that he had recorded and shelved--like the slam on Bob Dylan's "Gotta Serve Somebody"--I would have seen it as Lennon blowing off steam in the avenue of song, but thinking better of putting it on the album for the rest of the world to see. Well, that and it's not that good of a song in the first place... JcS
|
|
|
Post by anyoneanyhow on Jan 12, 2011 14:19:47 GMT -5
I find it all amazing that a fun little poll always has to come down to John versus Paul.
I love BTTE.
Having said that, Imagins side 2 is an incredible side of music Gimme Some Truth is one of the best rockers EVER. How and Oh My Love are two of the most beautiful slow songs ever. Oh Yoko, much fun, great tune. HDYS, take out the fact that John's picking on your fantasy boy and its a fairly clever tune, with some good guitar, but it ends up being my leat favorite from this side. Little Matter, Imagine 2 wins hands down over a worthy opponent, its just---so---freaking----great!
|
|
Joseph McCabe
Very Clean
A rebel to his last breath ...
Posts: 912
|
Post by Joseph McCabe on Jan 12, 2011 15:34:14 GMT -5
Listing adjectives (schizophrenic, egocentric, paranoic) is NOT presenting "elaborate" lyrics. What book of supposed "facts" did you get this out of? It's only your opinion and I disagree. I think they're some of John's more interesting lyrics, and using different adjectives to convey your feelings in song is every bit a part of good songwriting as anything else. As usual, you miss the main point here. Adjectives are essential in good writing, as you say: using different adjectives etc .... My point is that merely listing is lazy writing. And that's exactly what John does here. The key word was listing, not adjectives. McCabe
|
|
|
Post by Joe Karlosi on Jan 12, 2011 16:53:20 GMT -5
As usual, you miss the main point here. Adjectives are essential in good writing, as you say: using different adjectives etc .... My point is that merely listing is lazy writing. And that's exactly what John does here. One has to think of properly placed, applicable adjectives to express what he wants to convey in the song(s). You cannot just pick any ol' adjectives out of a dictionary on Page 1, whichever ones you see first, and make them fit how you feel about the 'targets' in the song. I don't think it's at all 'lazy' to seek out some out-of-the-ordinary descriptive words. What other songs that John's written do you think come near describing his subjects so vividly? If we want to talk about "lazy writing" we could more easily talk about most early Beatles classics penned by Lennon! The method of listing these suitably unflattering words is very powerful in the context of who John's striking out against in the song. But all that's happening here is that you and I disagree; nothing else. But to state it's some sort of "fact" that this is lazy songwriting is nonsense.
|
|
|
Post by Joe Karlosi on Jan 12, 2011 16:56:53 GMT -5
Taste is an individual thing so I completely understand a person not liking a particular song for some reason but here I think it is the subject matter of the lyrics(an attack on Paul) ticking some people off, not so much the song itself. ABSOLUTELY. It's all about people not liking their Paulie bashed, or any "Beatles friction" in general. If it was someone who was, say, Anti-Beatle like Dave Dexter (who did the Capitol US Albums that many didn't like), they'd love it. Or if it was that gent who said "guitars are on the way out", or the Decca guy who turned down the Fabs (were they the same person?), etc..
|
|
Joseph McCabe
Very Clean
A rebel to his last breath ...
Posts: 912
|
Post by Joseph McCabe on Jan 12, 2011 17:31:09 GMT -5
As usual, you miss the main point here. Adjectives are essential in good writing, as you say: using different adjectives etc .... My point is that merely listing is lazy writing. And that's exactly what John does here. One has to think of properly placed, applicable adjectives to express what he wants to convey in the song(s). You cannot just pick any ol' adjectives out of a dictionary on Page 1, whichever ones you see first, and make them fit how you feel about the 'targets' in the song. I don't think it's at all 'lazy' to seek out some out-of-the-ordinary descriptive words. What other songs that John's written do you think come near describing his subjects so vividly? If we want to talk about "lazy writing" we could more easily talk about most early Beatles classics penned by Lennon! The method of listing these suitably unflattering words is very powerful in the context of who John's striking out against in the song. But all that's happening here is that you and I disagree; nothing else. But to state it's some sort of "fact" that this is lazy songwriting is nonsense. First: Yes, yes, we all know this is opinion. Yes, yes, we all state our opinions as facts on forums sometimes. It's boring writing "IMO" or equivalent all the time. Second, and MUCH MORE importantly: the adjectives used by Lennon here are NOT out of the ordinary. Psychotic, pig-headed, egocentric, paranoic, short-haired, yellow-bellied, and so on. But you think these words are out of the ordinary, and are powerful as used in the song: good on you, dude, but I think they're almost cliches - they are certainly everyday, garden-variety adjectives, and listing them doesn't add anything special. And if you still think these adjectives are "out of the ordinary", perhaps you should up the standard of literature you read. McCabe
|
|
|
Post by winstonoboogie on Jan 12, 2011 22:12:30 GMT -5
Taste is an individual thing so I completely understand a person not liking a particular song for some reason but here I think it is the subject matter of the lyrics(an attack on Paul) ticking some people off, not so much the song itself. Or if it was that gent who said "guitars are on the way out", or the Decca guy who turned down the Fabs (were they the same person?), etc.. Yes, same person. I forget the name, but I'm sure one of the other posters remembers.
|
|
|
Post by coachbk on Jan 12, 2011 22:17:52 GMT -5
[quote This is amazing to me, that some of our well-respected friends here are offended and actually mad at John about "How Do You Sleep." Interesting the division this song causes 40 years later. [/quote] I always hated the song and would skip it, but I took another chance on it on John's 70th birthday. Regretted it immediately. The song made me very depressed. Fortunately I then went and listened to all John's songs on DOUBLE FANTASY and MILK AND HONEY and was alternately joyful ("Starting Over", "Nobody Told Me", "I'm Steppin Out") and tearful "Beautiful Boy" and "Grow Old With Me") with "Watching The Wheels" giving me a nice in between feeling. But back to "How Do You Sleep", I don't think I ever want to hear it again. I wouldn't like it if it was about Nixon, but I hate it because it is about Paul.
|
|
|
Post by John S. Damm on Jan 13, 2011 1:03:13 GMT -5
Had he been talking about Nixon and speaking falsely and/or hypcritically, it would irritate me as well. Two songs earlier, Lennon is pleading to "Gimme Some Truth" and then he goes off on a tirade based largely in fiction. What are the untruths to HDYS? Yes, Paul wrote more great songs than just "Yesterday" but "Another Day" wasn't one of them. Yes, John Lennon of all people should never berate a fellow man for being henpecked by his woman, I'll grant that. But where are the untruths beyond those examples. I think that for Verse 1, Paul was pretty pleased with himself over SPLHCB. I think his push for the band to make a movie themselves when they were completely incompetent to do so proves Paul's sense of infallibility after Pepper. Paul admitted to living with "straights" so no problem there. Verse 2 is the hyperbole lines from John as discussed above. Verse 3 is just John making a prediction that Paul was just a pretty face who couldn't last more than a year or two. Okay, John was wrong but I'd hardly call that lying. Per The JSD Postulate, Paul did die a creative death of sorts after RRS so some Beatles' scholars would argue John wasn't all wrong on Verse 3. I'm not saying the song isn't mean and maybe John should have thought harder before releasing it, I'm just saying I don't see where it is dishonest in a majority of places. It is just mean but in some places, very insightful.
|
|
wooltonian
Very Clean
"Football isn't a matter of life and death - it's much more important than that." Bill Shankly.
Posts: 796
|
Post by wooltonian on Jan 13, 2011 5:16:24 GMT -5
Per The JSD Postulate, Paul did die a creative death of sorts after RRS so some Beatles' scholars would argue John wasn't all wrong on Verse 3. Ha! Another reaon why 'How do you sleep?' sucks! It was written during Paul's hot streak of JSD Postulate albums. Obviously the song was fuelled by creative jealousy! Consider: While John was huddled in the corner of a room, swapping bitchy lines with Yoko for HDYS, Paul was larking about on the Mull of Kintyre doing the Mumbo Stomp and putting the finishing touches to 'Bip bop'! I know where I'd rather be!
|
|
|
Post by vectisfabber on Jan 13, 2011 7:07:30 GMT -5
What are the untruths to HDYS? Are you being ironic in asking that question and then listing at least 3 areas of untruth?
|
|
wooltonian
Very Clean
"Football isn't a matter of life and death - it's much more important than that." Bill Shankly.
Posts: 796
|
Post by wooltonian on Jan 13, 2011 7:38:10 GMT -5
Let's see... So Sgt. Pepper took you by surprise - DubiousYou better see right through that mother's eyes - MeaninglessThose freaks was right when they said you was dead - WrongThe one mistake you made was in your head - MeaninglessAh, how do you sleep? Ah, how do you sleep at night? You live with straights who tell you you was king - DubiousJump when your momma tell you anything - WrongThe only thing you done was yesterday - WrongAnd since you're gone you're just another day - WrongAh, how do you sleep? Ah, how do you sleep at night? Ah, how do you sleep? Ah, how do you sleep at night? A pretty face may last a year or two - WrongBut pretty soon they'll see what you can do - WrongThe sound you make is muzak to my ears - CorrectYou must have learned something in all those years - MeaninglessAh, how do you sleep? Ah, how do you sleep at night? At a quick count, I make that precisely two dubious, three meaningless and seven wrong statements contained in 'How do you sleep?' ....oh, and one correct - possibly...still thinking about that one!
|
|
|
Post by Joe Karlosi on Jan 13, 2011 8:04:16 GMT -5
So Sgt. Pepper took you by surprise - DubiousYou better see right through that mother's eyes - MeaninglessMeaningless to you, but maybe this bit of business is an inside reference known to John and Paul. I like JSD's theory too about Paul and PEPPER -- and you people have to remember THESE ARE SONGS. Huh? It's just a line playing on the "Paul Is Dead" thing. And a great one, IMO. Of course we know Paul was not literally deceased... John admittedly jumped more than Paul did, but how do you or I know what went on that we, the public, didn't see with Paul and his "momma"? Of course Paul did more than YESTERDAY. But at this particular point in time when actually relleased, Paul's spotty solo career and product was certainly less than inspiring. John turned out to make a wrong prediction here, true. But in 1971 it was a pretty good call. What do you mean? This line is neither "correct" nor "incorrect" --- it's just John Lennon's own opinion of Paul's current "muzak", nobody else's.
|
|
|
Post by Joe Karlosi on Jan 13, 2011 8:08:33 GMT -5
Second, and MUCH MORE importantly: the adjectives used by Lennon here are NOT out of the ordinary. Psychotic, pig-headed, egocentric, paranoic, short-haired, yellow-bellied, and so on. But you think these words are out of the ordinary, and are powerful as used in the song: good on you, dude, but I think they're almost cliches - they are certainly everyday, garden-variety adjectives, and listing them doesn't add anything special. Yep, they are certainly out of the ordinary in lyrics FOR JOHN LENNON. Name another song where he uses all these descriptions. You're the last person I'd ever need to advise me on what I should be reading, believe me.
|
|
wooltonian
Very Clean
"Football isn't a matter of life and death - it's much more important than that." Bill Shankly.
Posts: 796
|
Post by wooltonian on Jan 13, 2011 8:17:45 GMT -5
What do you mean? This line is neither "correct" nor "incorrect" --- it's just John Lennon's own opinion of Paul's current "muzak", nobody else's. I was being generous. The 'muzak' line is expressed as a statement of opinion, so I had to give John the benefit of the doubt. I could always amend that decision, in which case the song would become a 'clean sweep' of falsehood and innuendo!
|
|
|
Post by scousette on Jan 13, 2011 11:47:18 GMT -5
What do you mean? This line is neither "correct" nor "incorrect" --- it's just John Lennon's own opinion of Paul's current "muzak", nobody else's. I was being generous. The 'muzak' line is expressed as a statement of opinion, so I had to give John the benefit of the doubt. I could always amend that decision, in which case the song would become a 'clean sweep' of falsehood and innuendo! ;D
|
|
|
Post by John S. Damm on Jan 13, 2011 12:25:54 GMT -5
Per The JSD Postulate, Paul did die a creative death of sorts after RRS so some Beatles' scholars would argue John wasn't all wrong on Verse 3. Ha! Another reaon why 'How do you sleep?' sucks! It was written during Paul's hot streak of JSD Postulate albums. Obviously the song was fuelled by creative jealousy! Consider: While John was huddled in the corner of a room, swapping bitchy lines with Yoko for HDYS, Paul was larking about on the Mull of Kintyre doing the Mumbo Stomp and putting the finishing touches to 'Bip bop'! I know where I'd rather be! You have actually hit upon the weakest flaw of HDYS which no one else has mentioned: From 1970 to 1973, Paul was making his coolest solo music except for "Another Day" which was an incredible step backwards for our man Paul. He rebounded. John was also making his best solo music though too with his first two real solo albums. I guess that HDYS would be better served if it was limited to only blasting Paul for lamo "Another Day." "Another Day" has always been a thorn in the side to The JSD Postulate. By the way, no one gets mad at our boy Ringo for his equally brazen "Macca-slap" song "Back Off Boogaloo" from 1972: "Get yourself together now and give me something tasty. Everything you try to do, you know it sure sounds wasted." Ringo is subtle but his dagger penetrates just as deep as John's.
|
|
Joseph McCabe
Very Clean
A rebel to his last breath ...
Posts: 912
|
Post by Joseph McCabe on Jan 13, 2011 15:37:32 GMT -5
Second, and MUCH MORE importantly: the adjectives used by Lennon here are NOT out of the ordinary. Psychotic, pig-headed, egocentric, paranoic, short-haired, yellow-bellied, and so on. But you think these words are out of the ordinary, and are powerful as used in the song: good on you, dude, but I think they're almost cliches - they are certainly everyday, garden-variety adjectives, and listing them doesn't add anything special. Yep, they are certainly out of the ordinary in lyrics FOR JOHN LENNON. Name another song where he uses all these descriptions. You're the last person I'd ever need to advise me on what I should be reading, believe me. I can name a large number of songs, and stories, where he uses adjectives (& words generally) much more effectively - and the effectiveness of his words is the point. Isn't it? But ... Joe, Joe - let it go, dude. You worry things like a dog with a bone. Go watch a B-grade movie, or something, and relax. I recommend White Zombie. McCabe
|
|
|
Post by Joe Karlosi on Jan 13, 2011 16:05:15 GMT -5
Joe, Joe - let it go, dude. You worry things like a dog with a bone. Go watch a B-grade movie, or something, and relax. Who's 'worrying' here? We've both been doing the same; just responding to each other. And I am the one relaxing and enjoying GIMME SOME TRUTH, so no problems/worries there. Sure. And I think GST effectively conveys the frustration, anger, sarcasm, et al that Lennon wishes to vent about.
|
|