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Post by ursamajor on Oct 9, 2010 5:44:01 GMT -5
My take on Imagine is something different, it is the first "motivational speaker" type song but for the human race, then if you listen to John's last interview where he talks about Imagine and relates it to tennis and Billie Jean King, you have to say that's the birth of Anthony Robbins, John was way too far ahead of his time, he literally is a genius. Proof ? click on www.google.com |
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Post by theman on Oct 9, 2010 8:48:50 GMT -5
I like Mikev's way of deciding these debates, so....
IMAGINE, Side 1
1. Imagine *****
2. Crippled Inside***
3. Jealous Guy****
4. It's So Hard***
5. I Don't Want to Be a Soldier*
Total Score: 16
THIRTY THREE AND 1/3, Side 1
1. Woman Don't You Cry For Me***
2. Dear One**
3. Beautiful Girl****
4. This Song****
5. See Yourself***
Total Score: 16
Hmmm, a tie? Well, as much as I loved 33 1/3 when it was released and probably would pick it over Imagine to listen to as a whole album, I have to go with Imagine. I mean, my 14 year old daughter was playing Imagine on the piano yesterday, not Women Don't You Cry For Me ;D
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Post by joeyself on Oct 9, 2010 9:45:57 GMT -5
I like Mikev's way of deciding these debates, so.... IMAGINE, Side 1 1. Imagine ***** 2. Crippled Inside*** 3. Jealous Guy**** 4. It's So Hard*** 5. I Don't Want to Be a Soldier* Total Score: 16 THIRTY THREE AND 1/3, Side 1 1. Woman Don't You Cry For Me*** 2. Dear One** 3. Beautiful Girl**** 4. This Song**** 5. See Yourself*** Total Score: 16 Hmmm, a tie? Well, as much as I loved 33 1/3 when it was released and probably would pick it over Imagine to listen to as a whole album, I have to go with Imagine. I mean, my 14 year old daughter was playing Imagine on the piano yesterday, not Women Don't You Cry For Me ;D Any method one uses to choose is as good as another; this one, though, does not seem to take into consideration the overall flow of an album side. For instance, you came up with a dead tie, having IMAGINE range from 1 to 5 stars and 33 1/3 getting a tighter 2-4 range. Is it better for a side to start great (with your 5 star title track) or is it worse when it ends with a dud (and a 6 minute one at that)? Again, I'm not being critical of how someone selects his/her pick, just observing that a side of peaks and valleys may not be as pleasing from start to finish as a steadier one. JcS |
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Post by theman on Oct 9, 2010 10:24:32 GMT -5
No offense taken. You may be right about the consistency of 33 1/3, but I feel that "Imagine" and "Jealous Guy" are better than any of the five songs on side 1 of 33 1/3, but then again  . Well too late to second guess myself. |
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Post by coachbk on Oct 9, 2010 17:53:29 GMT -5
I listened to IMAGINE today (John's 70th bday) and here's my thoughts:
"Imagine": one of the greatest songs of all time. Beautiful melody and lyrics. He only asks us to imagine a world this way. I agree that "countries" and "religions" have been the cause of way too much war and death.
"Crippled Inside": is it about Paul? I don't think so, but I'd bet the line, "...look real cute" was delivered with a little wink in his direction. Love the piano in this one. Rocks along nicely.
"Jealous Guy": outstanding song. John had major problems with jealousy and it is nice to see him acknowledge that.
"It's So Hard": average competent rocker
"I Don't Want To Be A Soldier": I generally skip this track, but I sat through it all. Terrible singing (if you can call it that) and the song is way too long, but I must admit the background music is better than I remembered. This one could have benefited from some Yoko wailing in my opinion.
I know this is a side one thread, but in honor of the day, I'll talk about side 2
"Give Me Some Truth": my 2nd favorite song on the album. Love the guitar and vocals. Really rocks!
"Oh My Love": a very good love song.
"How Do You Sleep": I always skip this song and I wish I had again. It is even worse than I remembered. An embarassment of juvenile uninspired visciousness toward the man who more than anyone else helped John become the world famous icon he was. Not very good music or vocals either. Only George's slide has any redeeming value. The worst song any Beatle ever did. I will never listen to it again.
"How": an above average song
"Oh Yoko": this one made me feel good again after the awfulness of "How Do You Sleep". It moves along nicely and has a nice sentiment. I love hearing John play the harmonica tool
When this side gets into the tourney I will have to consider how much one terrible track should influence the overall merits of the side as a whole.
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Joseph McCabe
Very Clean
A rebel to his last breath ...
Posts: 912
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Post by Joseph McCabe on Oct 9, 2010 18:07:26 GMT -5
"How Do You Sleep": I always skip this song and I wish I had again. It is even worse than I remembered. An embarassment of juvenile uninspired visciousness toward the man who more than anyone else helped John become the world famous icon he was. Not very good music or vocals either. Only George's slide has any redeeming value. The worst song any Beatle ever did. I will never listen to it again. Yet, ironically, How Do You Sleep is probably the only song on the whole album sung with the characteristic Lennon venom and commitment. Just because it's aimed at Macca (perhaps a little unfairly ... perhaps) doesn't diminish it as a powerful song. McCabe |
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Post by anyoneanyhow on Oct 9, 2010 21:29:09 GMT -5
Imagine
Hmm, at this rate we may see nothing from George or Ringo make the next rounds, truly a pity. 33 1/3 is a great album, particularly side one. But Imagine was the album that switched my Beatle allegiance from Paul to John, and I've never looked back. Whether he's hopeful, resentful, regretful or just frisky John was never anything less than completely intense, as I found out when I first heard this albume (POB came later for me).
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Post by joeyself on Oct 9, 2010 23:22:45 GMT -5
Imagine Hmm, at this rate we may see nothing from George or Ringo make the next rounds, truly a pity. 33 1/3 is a great album, particularly side one. But Imagine Oh, I suspect George will have 3 or 4 sides of ATMP, and both sides of RINGO should survive (I just looked at the pairings, and I'm pretty sure of this). Beyond that, Ringo may have a couple more make it to the round of 32, and George should get another 4, maybe more, into the second round. JcS |
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Post by ursamajor on Oct 10, 2010 4:02:34 GMT -5
Although How Do You Sleep? is an open and blatant attack on Paul, I think it's a brilliant song, the voice alone is worth the price of admission.
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Post by theman on Oct 10, 2010 6:11:32 GMT -5
Listened to the whole "Imagine" album in the car today in honor of JL's Bday. Wife and kids were umimpressed (except for "Imagine", the song). Anyway, I stand by my pick here of this over 33 1/3. The first four songs really are a nice solid start to this album. Although IDWTBAS kinda brings things to a sudden stop in terms of quality, this side is more consistently "good" than the up and down nature of 33 1/3 (I think I may have overrated "Dear One" and "See Yourself" in my previous ratings). I need to listen to that one today.
By the way, I still have the first generation CD of Imagine and was really struck by John's muddy and buried vocals. Does the remastered CD improve on this flaw (or is this just part of what JL was really going for?)
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Post by anyoneanyhow on Oct 10, 2010 16:00:02 GMT -5
Imagine Hmm, at this rate we may see nothing from George or Ringo make the next rounds, truly a pity. 33 1/3 is a great album, particularly side one. But Imagine Oh, I suspect George will have 3 or 4 sides of ATMP, and both sides of RINGO should survive (I just looked at the pairings, and I'm pretty sure of this). Beyond that, Ringo may have a couple more make it to the round of 32, and George should get another 4, maybe more, into the second round. JcS Yes, maybe. But I have to say that I feel Ringo's 1990's allbums were so much better than Paul's, but will no doubt be demolished, by those that have never listened to them as well as those who have. And George has the most consistent catalogue of all of them, his career was so much more than ATMP. We'll see, maybe I'll be surprised. This is a cool tourney regardless. |
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Oct 10, 2010 16:52:39 GMT -5
But I have to say that I feel Ringo's 1990's allbums were so much better than Paul's, but will no doubt be demolished, by those that have never listened to them as well as those who have. And George has the most consistent catalogue of all of them, his career was so much more than ATMP. We'll see, maybe I'll be surprised. I definitely love Ringo's TIME TAKES TIME (1992). It's his best album, IMO, right after RINGO. It was a great "comeback" album of sorts, if you will. But I wasn't as thrilled with 1998's VERTICAL MAN, though it's not bad at all. But better than Paul's 1990s albums? Not really, for me. I love OFF THE GROUND (1993), and also think FLAMING PIE (1997) was a fine album for Paul later in his career. Paul could still rock hard with 1999's RUN DEVIL RUN as well. I must disagree with you about George being "the most consistent". I think ATMP (1970) was marvelous, and LITMW (1973) was a good follow-up. I lalso iked 33 1/3 (1976) and GEORGE HARRISON (1979), but other than these, George had two weak albums released in a row: DARK HORSE (1974) and EXTRA TEXTURE (1975). I thought his first couple of 1980s albums were very tepid too: SOMEWHERE IN ENGLAND (81) and GONE TROPPO (82). They were so laid back they almost went un-noticed. But then George came back with a smash in CLOUD NINE (1987), which I feel is his best LP right after ATMP. |
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Oct 10, 2010 16:57:17 GMT -5
"How Do You Sleep": I always skip this song and I wish I had again. It is even worse than I remembered. An embarassment of juvenile uninspired visciousness toward the man who more than anyone else helped John become the world famous icon he was. Not very good music or vocals either. Only George's slide has any redeeming value. The worst song any Beatle ever did. I will never listen to it again. Yet, ironically, How Do You Sleep is probably the only song on the whole album sung with the characteristic Lennon venom and commitment. Just because it's aimed at Macca (perhaps a little unfairly ... perhaps) doesn't diminish it as a powerful song. McCabe Exactly. It succeeds completely at being sarcastic and dripping with venom and contempt. All loyalties to Paul aside, HOW DO YOU SLEEP is a great track. |
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Post by coachbk on Oct 10, 2010 20:00:59 GMT -5
I continue to be completely perplexed how anyone can have anything but contempt for "How Do You Sleep"!!! I think John's voice is among his worst and the lyrics sound like something an elementary school bully would come up with. It would be a bad song no matter who it was directed at, but the fact that it was directed at Paul moves it into the lowest of the lows in the history of pop music. It is in no way shape or form a great track. Change the lyrics completely or even make it an instrumental and it would still only be mediocre at best.
I'm very open minded about most things and believe everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but this will be one case where I can't even come close to understanding how anyone can think otherwise.
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Oct 11, 2010 5:59:40 GMT -5
I continue to be completely perplexed how anyone can have anything but contempt for "How Do You Sleep"!!! I think John's voice is among his worst and the lyrics sound like something an elementary school bully would come up with. It would be a bad song no matter who it was directed at, but the fact that it was directed at Paul moves it into the lowest of the lows in the history of pop music. It is in no way shape or form a great track. Change the lyrics completely or even make it an instrumental and it would still only be mediocre at best. I'm very open minded about most things and believe everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but this will be one case where I can't even come close to understanding how anyone can think otherwise. Just as I will never understand how you can think the way you do. You can spout whatever you want, but it's blatantly obvious that you're annoyed because Paul is the target of John's venom in this song. John slapped Paul's face with his direct attack here, and I think it's courageous and brilliant. Unlike sissy Paulie who just veiled his sneaky attacks so he can come across to the public as the "Good Little Boy". And what is it about people not liking "voice" styles when it's just the vocalist trying something different with his singing? I like it much better than someone always doing the same old shit. That goes the same for recent complaints I've heard against Paul's singing style in TOMORROW, and other songs. |
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Post by vectisfabber on Oct 11, 2010 11:22:05 GMT -5
I always felt that How Do You Sleep? was John kind of sticking his tongue out at Paul, and was essentially childish and petty in nature rather than courageous and brilliant. Which is not to say that Paul was any more laudable with regard to his part in the musical ping pong match of spite.
But I do think that it's a good topic for discussion, so I'll start a thread.
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Post by John S. Damm on Oct 11, 2010 11:29:09 GMT -5
I continue to be completely perplexed how anyone can have anything but contempt for "How Do You Sleep"!!! I think John's voice is among his worst and the lyrics sound like something an elementary school bully would come up with. It would be a bad song no matter who it was directed at, but the fact that it was directed at Paul moves it into the lowest of the lows in the history of pop music. It is in no way shape or form a great track. Change the lyrics completely or even make it an instrumental and it would still only be mediocre at best. I'm very open minded about most things and believe everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but this will be one case where I can't even come close to understanding how anyone can think otherwise. It is refeshing to read dissenting opinions. The admiration of that song is not universal here. I like the song if not all of the message if that is possible. When John sings, "Jump when your momma tells you anything," I feel like saying look in a mirror John Lennon! It does seem, however, that John was unwisely provoked into this pissing war by some subtle digs by Paul on Ram. Both men should have known better. |
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Oct 11, 2010 12:31:15 GMT -5
I always felt that How Do You Sleep? was John kind of sticking his tongue out at Paul, and was essentially childish and petty in nature rather than courageous and brilliant. Well, I meant courageous in the sense of coming right out and saying it openly. For everyone to see, and to hell with those listeners who don't like John because of it. |
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Post by ursamajor on Oct 11, 2010 15:23:30 GMT -5
I thought John pretty much nailed Paul with those lyrics. Paul stopped the digs starting with Dear Friend.
What is strange is the reason Paul wrote his little digs on RAM in the first place. I don't think he was provoked by John, Paul said he was just annoyed by J&Y's antics and I'll never understand why.
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Post by joeyself on Oct 11, 2010 16:05:20 GMT -5
I thought John pretty much nailed Paul with those lyrics. Paul stopped the digs starting with Dear Friend. It appeared that way, but the recording of "Dear Friend" actually predated both the release of RAM and IMAGINE. It seems logical it was resurrected afterward because of "How Do You Sleep." JcS |
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Post by coachbk on Oct 12, 2010 22:02:20 GMT -5
[quote author=joekarlosi
it's blatantly obvious that you're annoyed because Paul is the target of John's venom in this song. [/quote]
I would agree I wouldn't hate the song as much as I do were it not directed at Paul.
But I wouldn't like it either.
Now let's say that "Crippled Inside" was more blantantly a put down of Paul (more than just the "look real cute" line). I'd still have to admit it has a great piano and is a musically likeable track. I'd just dislike the lyrics.
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Oct 13, 2010 6:02:43 GMT -5
I would agree I wouldn't hate the song as much as I do were it not directed at Paul. But I wouldn't like it either. Now let's say that "Crippled Inside" was more blantantly a put down of Paul (more than just the "look real cute" line). I'd still have to admit it has a great piano and is a musically likeable track. I'd just dislike the lyrics. I don't think CRIPPLED INSIDE has anything to do with Paul. Personally, I love these lyrics and to me it's just a song about not being able to hide when you're really suffering or are in pain (both mentally and physcially). I relate to it because I know I never can pretend or hide it, and it always shows through. |
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Post by coachbk on Oct 13, 2010 8:13:31 GMT -5
[quote
I don't think CRIPPLED INSIDE has anything to do with Paul. Personally, I love these lyrics and to me it's just a song about not being able to hide when you're really suffering or are in pain (both mentally and physcially). I relate to it because I know I never can pretend or hide it, and it always shows through. [/quote]
I don't think it is directed at Paul either (just the one line perhaps). My point was IF that song was the one directed at Paul, rather than "How Do You Sleep" I would still like the music, whereas "How Do You Sleep" with different lyrics would still not be a song I would rate highly.
But that certainly is more a matter of personal musical taste.
The lyrical content of "How Do You Sleep?" just doesn't appeal to me at all and is nothing I care to experience listening to again. Going back to my original post of listening to Lennon on his birthday, I was so bothered after listening to "How Do You Sleep" that I ended up listening to "Grow Old With Me" to help me feel better about John. That made me a little too sad so I listened to a good fun song ("Nobody Told Me") and that made me smile.
So maybe all these emotions are part of what made John great.
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Post by acebackwords on Oct 13, 2010 16:30:28 GMT -5
Just for the record, the song IMAGINE does not say "Imagine No God ", and that was not John's meaning in the "and no religion, too" line. He specifically clarified in the RKO interview of 1980, when explaining the meaning of the song: "Not Imagine there's 'No God' ". He said that straight out. And then he continued to name all various types of religions, saying that this type of division among specific religions was his meaning. Good point, Joe. Elliot Mintz once commented on the irony of Lennon singing he don't believe in God and the whole litany in the song "God." Mintz correctly pointed out: "John believed in all that stuff." He was deeply fascinated with all the great world religions. |
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Post by vectisfabber on Oct 13, 2010 19:07:09 GMT -5
Hmm. I thought Crippled Inside was essentially a jolly version of Gimme Some Truth ie. both about corrupt politicians.
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Post by John S. Damm on Oct 13, 2010 21:08:03 GMT -5
"Handle" is the wrong word. We humans as a whole(not every individual as there are the very good among us) let our God down. We constantly let him/her down I imagine. Humans in large part(not all, I agree) have abused their faith in God to the injury of others. That happens to this day. I hear Lennon saying God is not the problem, we are. Lennon actually adopts the "liberation theology" in vogue back then best represented by Gene Hackman's character Reverend Frank Scott in The Poseidon Adventure. That view, very real in the late 60's, early 70's, is that God doesn't want us always suffering, God doesn't want us repressed sexually or emotionally. God helps those who help themselves. And God does not want us killing in his name. The only church we need is in our own soul. George Harrison adopts this radical view in "Awaiting On You All." Far from anti-God, Lennon's song is more New Testament than Old and closer to the original intent of early Christians but the message has got convoluted through the years. A progressive view of God yes, but not atheistic. In short, I believe John on his intent. He is not knocking God but those who pervert the faith which sadly is most believers or at least their spiritual leaders. Exactly! Those who would emulate Lennon by performing his song miss the point he is making and posture to sing this song while ignoring his message. Madonna comes most readily to mind. The song becomes a possession to her and others. You really think that Imagine is not anti-religion and therefore not anti-God. I know what John said in retrospect. Just because some religions have things like the war-like jihad which is according to the Qur'an and the Hadith, a duty that may be fulfilled in four ways: by the heart, the tongue, the hand, or the sword. That doesn't mean you should wish all religions away. Man is flawed and by removing religion, you remove hope that man will even strive toward the ideal that religion holds. Its not possible to have God without some religious tenants and religious faith. It may be non-denominational or not so. John was just copping out when he excoriateed religion of any and all kinds but claimed to have a pro-God view. Wow, Linda McCartney was more anti-God than John Lennon and she should have written "Imagine." From an interview with Danny Fields: DF: Did your parents observe any Jewish holidays or anything like that? LM: I think they tried to have something for Passover once, and we all made fun of it, and we all hated it. I've always hated religion. It's the most guilt-ridden, horrible thing. 'My God is better than yours, and I'm going to fight you and kill you because of your religion.' I think it's just a sick idea. You know how people are colour-blind when it comes to other people - I mean, hopefully they are. Well, I'm religious-blind. www.wingspan.ru/bookseng/linda/03.htmlWow, old Linda makes JL look like Mother Teresa! Religion is a, "sick idea?" Linda "hates" religion? It sounds like she and bully brother John Eastman mocked their parents so bad for their religious beliefs that the parents never bothered again to practise their religion. Care to retract your diatribe against John Lennon, RTP? We know that Paul jumped when his momma told him anything so Paul must have agreed with Linda's militant anti-God views. |
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Post by ursamajor on Oct 13, 2010 21:11:07 GMT -5
That's why Paul and Linda are boring. Very childish answers to good questions.
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Post by acebackwords on Oct 14, 2010 14:45:09 GMT -5
I continue to be completely perplexed how anyone can have anything but contempt for "How Do You Sleep"!!! I think John's voice is among his worst and the lyrics sound like something an elementary school bully would come up with. It would be a bad song no matter who it was directed at, but the fact that it was directed at Paul moves it into the lowest of the lows in the history of pop music. It is in no way shape or form a great track. Change the lyrics completely or even make it an instrumental and it would still only be mediocre at best. I'm very open minded about most things and believe everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but this will be one case where I can't even come close to understanding how anyone can think otherwise. I love that song, if only for the blistering Harrison guitar (when asked about that song, George said it was a lot more fun to be on this side of Lennon's venom than the other side). And I think it took a bit of courage by Lennon to be willing to show himself in such a negative light. But I think it also shows the weakness of Lennon's autobiographical solo songs. As a Beatle he probably would've taken that rage and translated into a universal message instead of such a narrow, personal way. But still a great song. And I wouldn't be surprised if Macca covered it one day in concert. Wouldn't that be a kick? Hell, if he'll do "Helter Skelter" why not. |
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Post by mikev on Oct 14, 2010 14:54:25 GMT -5
I continue to be completely perplexed how anyone can have anything but contempt for "How Do You Sleep"!!! I think John's voice is among his worst and the lyrics sound like something an elementary school bully would come up with. It would be a bad song no matter who it was directed at, but the fact that it was directed at Paul moves it into the lowest of the lows in the history of pop music. It is in no way shape or form a great track. Change the lyrics completely or even make it an instrumental and it would still only be mediocre at best. I'm very open minded about most things and believe everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but this will be one case where I can't even come close to understanding how anyone can think otherwise. I love that song, if only for the blistering Harrison guitar (when asked about that song, George said it was a lot more fun to be on this side of Lennon's venom than the other side). And I think it took a bit of courage by Lennon to be willing to show himself in such a negative light. But I think it also shows the weakness of Lennon's autobiographical solo songs. As a Beatle he probably would've taken that rage and translated into a universal message instead of such a narrow, personal way. But still a great song. And I wouldn't be surprised if Macca covered it one day in concert. Wouldn't that be a kick? Hell, if he'll do "Helter Skelter" why not. So how would Paul sing it? "So Sgt. Pepper took me by surprise..." ;D |
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Post by acebackwords on Oct 14, 2010 15:44:54 GMT -5
I love that song, if only for the blistering Harrison guitar (when asked about that song, George said it was a lot more fun to be on this side of Lennon's venom than the other side). And I think it took a bit of courage by Lennon to be willing to show himself in such a negative light. But I think it also shows the weakness of Lennon's autobiographical solo songs. As a Beatle he probably would've taken that rage and translated into a universal message instead of such a narrow, personal way. But still a great song. And I wouldn't be surprised if Macca covered it one day in concert. Wouldn't that be a kick? Hell, if he'll do "Helter Skelter" why not. So how would Paul sing it? "So Sgt. Pepper took me by surprise..." ;D Ha ha, yeah I think Paul could relate to that line. As John said: "I think LSD profoundly shocked Paul and Ringo. I think maybe they regret it." John once put an interesting spin on "How Do You Sleep?" claiming he was mostly singing about himself. And with lines like "Jump when your Mother tells you anything" he may have a point. Plus I suspect John had a harder time sleeping (i.e. living with himself) than Paul. |
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