Match 17, Solo LP Tourney, Rnd 1, MG 2 vs. ATMP 4

[joeyself]

MIND GAMES, Side 2 vs. ALL THINGS MUST PASS, Side 4

MIND GAMES, Side 2

1. "Intuition" 3:08
2. "Out the Blue" 3:23
3. "Only People" 3:23
4. "I Know (I Know)" 3:49
5. "You Are Here" 4:08
6. "Meat City" 2:45

ALL THINGS MUST PASS, Side 4

1. "I Dig Love" 4:55
2. "Art of Dying" 3:37
3. "Isn't It a Pity (Version 2)" 4:45
4. "Hear Me Lord" 5:46

We start the second half of the first round with a couple of sides that I think would be in trouble if the draw was different--and as such, may wind up being closely matched this time.

JcS

[coachbk]

Any other side of ATMP would win easily, but side 4 is the weakest. "Art Of Dying" is a strong track. "Hear Me Lord" is a nice LP closer, though a little long. "Isn't It A Pity" is good, but why a 2nd version (particularly when other songs were available such as "I Live For You") "I Dig Love" is weak.
As for MIND GAMES, it has been ripped quite a bit on this board, but there is nothing on this side that doesn't have some redeeming value. I like John as the optimistic dreamer and much of this side comes across well. Yeah it's a bit slick, but it is quite refreshing after the disastrous "pseudo-hip" SINYC. John is back to being a songwriter and musician rather than a politician.
So my vote goes to MIND GAMES side 2.

[ursamajor]

Mind Games S-2

I don't agree that these are second rate sides, I think there are stellar tracks on both sides.
ATMP-4 is the lesser of all the ATMP sides but it has only 4 songs, one being a remake.

Mind Games S-2 has great song writing, it just needed better production.

Intuition - great song, but too poppy and fruit
Out the Blue - great under rated ballad
Only People - throwback rock tune but has some great moments , "we don't want no big brother scene", could be the best moment on the whole album
I Know - another awesome under rated ballad
You Are Here - another great under rated ballad, which seems to be the theme of this album, very much under rated and under appreciated. Great feel and sound from John
Meat City - a great rocker to end the side and album

[Joseph McCabe]

ATMP 4
It is almost de rigeur for Beatle fans to give I Dig Love a bit of a hiding: but I have to say I like it. It's well played, and well sung, and has (as they say) a nice simple groove.

Art of Dying is a wonderful song. I can imagine the song opening and closing a modern performance of the medieval morality play Everyman. (Yes, atheists can enjoy these things too. )

A repeat of Pity is probably not necessary and I usually skip it. Having said that, when I don't skip it I always enjoy the vastly different arrangement. It is a great song, after all!

Lastly, Hear Me Lord. I think this is superb. The singer prostrates himself before his god, and asks forgiveness and help. The song is uplifting and full of humility.

Mind Games 2
Can John Lennon match this side? No, Mind Games is soft, weak Lennon - and the attempt at rescuing the first five servings of blancmange by being pseudo-grungy (?) in Meat City rings false.

ATMP4 gets my nod, and easily.

McCabe

Edited because I can't count!

[ReturnToPepperland]

I'm going with John on this challenge.

1. "Intuition" 3:08 I have always liked this one.
2. "Out the Blue" 3:23 Another one I never skipped.
3. "Only People" 3:23 I liked it better in 1973.
4. "I Know (I Know)" 3:49 This one is brilliant--one of John best post Beatles.
5. "You Are Here" 4:08 Not bad. A little bland.
6. "Meat City" 2:45 Ok. Not outstanding.

ALL THINGS MUST PASS, Side 4

1. "I Dig Love" 4:55 Not very original. Seems to me I've heard that riff before--its from an old familiar score. Not terrible, but the lyrics? "I love dig?" And they talk about Paul.
2. "Art of Dying" 3:37 I like this one.
3. "Isn't It a Pity (Version 2)" 4:45 Unnecessary. The first version is superior.
4. "Hear Me Lord" 5:46 One of the least interesting songs on the album though I like the lyrics.

[Deleted]

ALL THINGS MUST PASS, Side 4

it's a battle between 2 of my favourite Beatle people solo albums...

George wins by a whisker....

[Joe Karlosi]

I went with MIND GAMES. Because Side 4 of ATMP is the weakest of that masterpiece.

[joeyself]

Using my "best listening experience as a whole" criteria, I'm going with MG 2. ATMP 4 suffers from a lousy starting song in "I Dig Love." The second version of "Isn't It A Pity" would have been a good b-side, maybe, but it isn't as good as the first one, and I can't erase that from my mind as I listen to it. I do like "Art Of Dying" and "Hear Me Lord," although the latter goes on a bit too long.

On the other hand, MG 2 starts well with "Intuition," and while nothing else on the side measures up to that, there aren't any real clunkers.

MG 2 by a slight but comfortable margin.

JcS

[mikev]

1. Intuition***
2. Out the Blue*****One of my personal favs
3. Only People***
4. I Know (I Know) ****
5. You Are Here****
6. Meat City*****Great Lennon "Plastic Ono" rocker


1. I Dig Love****Beatlesque ditty
2. Art of Dying***
3. Isn't It a Pity (Version 2) **** shorter and a nice version, but unnecessary
4. Hear Me Lord** really glad the Beatles did't do this one

MG gets this one

[John S. Damm]

"Hey, hey, hey, hey, alright!"

It's Mind Games-2 for me.

The dirty secret of the album ATMP is two-fold. First, it is not really a triple album because the third record consists of self-indulgent jams worth hearing once every 20 years. I listened to them eight years ago so I'm still good.

The second part of that is that ATMP is not even a legit double album because Hari had to recycle a song, here "Isn't It A Pity," slightly change it and drag it out for 4:45 minutes and otherwise pad other songs on Side 4 to unreasonable lengths. "I Dig Love" should have been as long as "Dig It" is on Let It Be, really! "Hear Me Lord" is a very moving song but even God got restless and said, "Excuse me George, I must use the bathroom," after the four minute mark. George seriously padded Side 4 to make a double album. Hey, maybe I shouldn't complain because many think the almighty Beatles did the same on Side 4 of the White Album!

What about Mind Games-2? "Intuition" might be a good song but we'll never know because of the cheesy arrangement and recording of it. The electric piano is really lounge-lizard. "Hey, hey, hey, heeeey, alright!"

"Out Of The Blue" starts out great but John never quites edits the lyrics like a good Lennon does. "Like a UFO you came to me." Very Paul McCartney-ish on unedited lyrics here.

It is sad but "Only People" works best in the snippets we get of it in that recent television commercial. The whole song seems to plod along. "Oh, let's go!" Man John, you have never had such twee little spoken intros to songs like you do on MG.

"I Know(I Know)" is my second favorite song on the album, next to the title song. I fully believe it is John's atonement to Paul for "How Do You Sleep" and it is beautiful. Another cool thing is that it is so obscure, no one can have heard this one too much!

"You Are Here" is another beautiful song aimed at the lovely Yoko Ono. I hated this song as a teen because it sounded like a dirge but I have come to love it. Very, very moving.

"Meat City" was never huge with me but this is a case where my friends' enthusiasm here for the song is contagious. If many of you good folks like it, it must be a cool rocker! It was an effort by John to show how he was becoming Americanized by throwing out some American slang and television commercial lingo from 1973.

I do not bow and worship ATMP and particularly not ATMP-4. I have a love/indifferent relationship with MG but today I love it, at least as compared to ATMP-4.

[winstonoboogie]

Nov 6, 2010 0:21:39 GMT -5 Joseph McCabe said:

ATMP 4
Edited because I can't count!

That's OK, Joe - we forgive you!

[winstonoboogie]

[quote author=jsd board=general thread=2251 post=26144 time=1289051960"Hear Me Lord" is a very moving song but even God got restless and said, "Excuse me George, I must use the bathroom," after the four minute mark. [/quote]
LOL!

[JCV]

ALL THINGS MUST PASS, Side 4

I like all four of these songs, even Pity2. So George it is. If it was up against Mind Games 1, it'd be another story, I think.

JCV

[ReturnToPepperland]

Nov 6, 2010 8:59:20 GMT -5 John S. Damm said:

"Hey, hey, hey, hey, alright!"

It's Mind Games-2 for me.

The dirty secret of the album ATMP is two-fold. First, it is not really a triple album because the third record consists of self-indulgent jams worth hearing once every 20 years. I listened to them eight years ago so I'm still good.

The second part of that is that ATMP is not even a legit double album because Hari had to recycle a song, here "Isn't It A Pity," slightly change it and drag it out for 4:45 minutes and otherwise pad other songs on Side 4 to unreasonable lengths. "I Dig Love" should have been as long as "Dig It" is on Let It Be, really! "Hear Me Lord" is a very moving song but even God got restless and said, "Excuse me George, I must use the bathroom," after the four minute mark. George seriously padded Side 4 to make a double album. Hey, maybe I shouldn't complain because many think the almighty Beatles did the same on Side 4 of the White Album!

What about Mind Games-2? "Intuition" might be a good song but we'll never know because of the cheesy arrangement and recording of it. The electric piano is really lounge-lizard. "Hey, hey, hey, heeeey, alright!"

"Out Of The Blue" starts out great but John never quites edits the lyrics like a good Lennon does. "Like a UFO you came to me." Very Paul McCartney-ish on unedited lyrics here.

It is sad but "Only People" works best in the snippets we get of it in that recent television commercial. The whole song seems to plod along. "Oh, let's go!" Man John, you have never had such twee little spoken intros to songs like you do on MG.

"I Know(I Know)" is my second favorite song on the album, next to the title song. I fully believe it is John's atonement to Paul for "How Do You Sleep" and it is beautiful. Another cool thing is that it is so obscure, no one can have heard this one too much!

"You Are Here" is another beautiful song aimed at the lovely Yoko Ono. I hated this song as a teen because it sounded like a dirge but I have come to love it. Very, very moving.

"Meat City" was never huge with me but this is a case where my friends' enthusiasm here for the song is contagious. If many of you good folks like it, it must be a cool rocker! It was an effort by John to show how he was becoming Americanized by throwing out some American slang and television commercial lingo from 1973.

I do not bow and worship ATMP and particularly not ATMP-4. I have a love/indifferent relationship with MG but today I love it, at least as compared to ATMP-4.

You're right about ATMP. It could have been a solid single album by dropping Isn't It A Pity Part 2 and another couple of songs that don't add to the album: Hear Me Lord and I Dig Love. Apple Scruffs could have stayed on the b-side of What Is Life.

It could have looked like this as a single album:

Side 1
1. "I'd Have You Anytime" 2:56
2. "My Sweet Lord" 4:38
3. "Beware of Darkness" 3:48
4. "Behind That Locked Door" 3:05
5. "Awaiting on You All" 2:45
6. "Art of Dying" 3:37
7. "Isn't It a Pity" 7:08

Side 2
1. "What Is Life" 4:22
2. "Wah-Wah" 5:35
3. "Let It Down" 4:57
4. "Run of the Mill" 2:49
5. "If Not for You" 3:29
6. "Ballad of Sir Frankie Crisp (Let It Roll)" 3:46
7. "All Things Must Pass" 3:44

[joeyself]

Nov 6, 2010 17:55:12 GMT -5 ReturnToPepperland said:

You're right about ATMP. It could have been a solid single album by dropping Isn't It A Pity Part 2 and another couple of songs that don't add to the album: Hear Me Lord and I Dig Love. Apple Scruffs could have stayed on the b-side of What Is Life.

It could have looked like this as a single album:

Side 1
1. "I'd Have You Anytime" 2:56
2. "My Sweet Lord" 4:38
3. "Beware of Darkness" 3:48
4. "Behind That Locked Door" 3:05
5. "Awaiting on You All" 2:45
6. "Art of Dying" 3:37
7. "Isn't It a Pity" 7:08

Side 2
1. "What Is Life" 4:22
2. "If Not for You" 3:29
3. "Let It Down" 4:57
4. "Run of the Mill" 2:49
5. "Wah-Wah" 5:35
6. "Ballad of Sir Frankie Crisp (Let It Roll)" 3:46
7. "All Things Must Pass" 3:44

It COULD have looked like that, but it would have sounded horrible--you have over 27 minutes on each side, if my quick math-in-my-head is right. Need to keep it under 22 for the best results; 24 is really pushing it.

JcS

[ReturnToPepperland]

Nov 6, 2010 22:27:56 GMT -5 joeyself said:

Nov 6, 2010 17:55:12 GMT -5 ReturnToPepperland said:

You're right about ATMP. It could have been a solid single album by dropping Isn't It A Pity Part 2 and another couple of songs that don't add to the album: Hear Me Lord and I Dig Love. Apple Scruffs could have stayed on the b-side of What Is Life.

It could have looked like this as a single album:

Side 1
1. "I'd Have You Anytime" 2:56
2. "My Sweet Lord" 4:38
3. "Beware of Darkness" 3:48
4. "Behind That Locked Door" 3:05
5. "Awaiting on You All" 2:45
6. "Art of Dying" 3:37
7. "Isn't It a Pity" 7:08

Side 2
1. "What Is Life" 4:22
2. "If Not for You" 3:29
3. "Let It Down" 4:57
4. "Run of the Mill" 2:49
5. "Wah-Wah" 5:35
6. "Ballad of Sir Frankie Crisp (Let It Roll)" 3:46
7. "All Things Must Pass" 3:44

It COULD have looked like that, but it would have sounded horrible--you have over 27 minutes on each side, if my quick math-in-my-head is right. Need to keep it under 22 for the best results; 24 is really pushing it.

JcS

I thought of that JcS. I thought 25 minutes was the absolute limit before the sound deteriorates. I am around 27 minutes. I remember Keith Richards talking about that when they released Exile on Main Street. They had to make it a double album to avoid that problem.

But then again some of the songs are overly long and could use a little editing. On side one you could have easily shaved a half minute or so off My Sweet Lord and Art of Dying and another couple of minutes off of Isn't It A Pity. On side two Let It Down could lose a minute and Wah Wah two minutes. That would bring both side down to near 24 minutes.

[stavros]

I may upset a few purists but have judged this on my re-mastered CD versions. Simply because I do not have a copy of ATMP other than the re-mastered version and these are supposedly the best versions. Plus John's voice is so much better on the 2005 re-master than the muddy mix of the original copy I have from the 90s.

So first up ATMP side 4

"I Dig Love" sounds very 'Instant Karma' like production wise, is far too long and runs out of ideas lyrically shortly after the first few bars. Could have been better had George held this over and made something more of it. "Art of Dying" is an excellent track. I like the "Isn't it a Pity" version that follows as well. But it ultimately overstays it's welcome. Especially as we have a definitive version earlier on this album. "Hear Me Lord" is one of those tracks that I don't particularly dis-like but is not particularly anything special either. My overall impression is that George was beginning to tread water as he stretched ATMP into a double album. I'm also undecided over Spector's production.

Mind Games (re-mastered) is not an album I have regularly listened to and I only got a copy of the re-master last year. But after a few listens it's actually back to the John style of the "White Album". "Intuition" is a decent opener and back to simple "pop" music. "Out of the Blue" totally classic hidden Lennon track. "Only People" is a sort of "Power to People" anthem watered down and presented as "pop" music again. Not sure if this one works and is a little formulaic.

"I Know (I Know)" is that the riff from "Wah Wah" I hear slower and slightly disguised. And then what is it you know John? The song also has a Ringo type flavour to it and the line "Today I love you more than yesterday" who is he talking to or about? Perhaps a hidden message to all his former band mates or nothing at all who knows? Truly a slow burner that has finally hit home. A great song.

"You Are Here" is also a song that has grown on me over the years. "Meat City" pure fun and a good rocker to end the album on. If a little too seventies sounding these days I don't care.

John wins and I may say "Mind Games" has gone up in my estimation after giving the whole album a run through.

[theman]

Nov 7, 2010 15:51:18 GMT -5 stavros said:

I may upset a few purists but have judged this on my re-mastered CD versions. Simply because I do not have a copy of ATMP other than the re-mastered version and these are supposedly the best versions. Plus John's voice is so much better on the 2005 re-master than the muddy mix of the original copy I have from the 90s.

So first up ATMP side 4

"I Dig Love" sounds very 'Instant Karma' like production wise, is far too long and runs out of ideas lyrically shortly after the first few bars. Could have been better had George held this over and made something more of it. "Art of Dying" is an excellent track. I like the "Isn't it a Pity" version that follows as well. But it ultimately overstays it's welcome. Especially as we have a definitive version earlier on this album. "Hear Me Lord" is one of those tracks that I don't particularly dis-like but is not particularly anything special either. My overall impression is that George was beginning to tread water as he stretched ATMP into a double album. I'm also undecided over Spector's production.

Mind Games (re-mastered) is not an album I have regularly listened to and I only got a copy of the re-master last year. But after a few listens it's actually back to the John style of the "White Album". "Intuition" is a decent opener and back to simple "pop" music. "Out of the Blue" totally classic hidden Lennon track. "Only People" is a sort of "Power to People" anthem watered down and presented as "pop" music again. Not sure if this one works and is a little formulaic.

"I Know (I Know)" is that the riff from "Wah Wah" I hear slower and slightly disguised. And then what is it you know John? The song also has a Ringo type flavour to it and the line "Today I love you more than yesterday" who is he talking to or about? Perhaps a hidden message to all his former band mates or nothing at all who knows? Truly a slow burner that has finally hit home. A great song.

"You Are Here" is also a song that has grown on me over the years. "Meat City" pure fun and a good rocker to end the album on. If a little too seventies sounding these days I don't care.

John wins and I may say "Mind Games" has gone up in my estimation after giving the whole album a run through.

Great review. I really need to get the remastered version of Mind Games. I'm with stavros in believing this one is a lot better than conventional wisdom gives it credit for.