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Post by joeyself on Jun 9, 2010 13:19:35 GMT -5
Match 2: THE BEATLES, SIDE 4 vs. RUBBER SOUL, Side 2
"Revolution 1" 4:15
"Honey Pie" 2:41
"Savoy Truffle" 2:54
"Cry Baby Cry" 3:11
"Revolution 9" 8:13
"Good Night" 3:11
RUBBER SOUL, Side 2
"What Goes On" 2:50
"Girl" 2:33
"I'm Looking Through You" 2:27
"In My Life" 2:27
"Wait" 2:16
"If I Needed Someone" 2:23
"Run for Your Life" 2:18
JSD's pick-to-click, TB 4, is up early in this game, which means we have to either listen to him gloat or whine...
JcS
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Post by John S. Damm on Jun 9, 2010 15:59:48 GMT -5
I'm going to play cheerleader here and say we need more voters! This tourney is easy to play, no one gets hurt and it will spur discussion back towards the Beatles' music.
And Joey is putting lots of effort into it and if we want other tourneys from him, let's make this a rousing success. Let's get at least 20 to 25 voters per Round. We have easily that many people who post here regularly.
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Post by winstonoboogie on Jun 9, 2010 20:56:10 GMT -5
I pick Rubber Soul Side 2. 4 good songs and 1 decent song (What Goes On, although I know I'm in the minority :  vs. 3 good-to-decent songs on WA side 4 (Cry, Savoy, Honey Pie), 1 anomaly (Good Night), 1 dirge (Rev 1) and 1 WTF? (Rev 9).  ;D |
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Post by ursamajor on Jun 9, 2010 22:00:31 GMT -5
RS-2 even though it has two filler tracks in What Goes On and Wait, the rest is stellar songwriting.
TB-4 hass too much filler, Rev 9 , Honey Pie and Savoy Truffle, I also get annoyed by the horns on Rev.1 , spoils the song for me. I like Cry Baby Cry and Goodnight but I don't look forward to hearing this side of TB-4 whereas I don't sit there waiting for the end of RS-2.
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Post by vectisfabber on Jun 10, 2010 5:26:14 GMT -5
This is actually close until you consider the extent to which the power and majesty of Revolution 9 sends TB4 into the - no, it's no good, I can't keep it up even in jest.
But it's very close in terms of listening time for good songs.
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wooltonian
Very Clean
"Football isn't a matter of life and death - it's much more important than that." Bill Shankly.
Posts: 796
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Post by wooltonian on Jun 10, 2010 6:27:43 GMT -5
RS - side 2.
I've got big issues with the White Album. Don't even get me started on side 4. I sometimes think that just because a song or an album is by the Beatles it has this 'aura of invincibility'. It can't be really terrible - hell, it's a Beatles song!! It just doesn't wash with me. Large chunks of the White Album are dispiriting and mediocre and some of it is absolute rubbish. Most of the rubbish is on side 4 - hence this very easy vote.
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Post by coachbk on Jun 10, 2010 8:51:39 GMT -5
Not even close. RUBBER SOUL in a landslide.
"What Goes On' is the only clinker on RS while "Cry Baby Cry" is the only WAS4 song that is better than any other RS songs.
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Post by joeyself on Jun 10, 2010 10:20:47 GMT -5
I pick Rubber Soul Side 2. 4 good songs and 1 decent song (What Goes On, although I know I'm in the minority : I'm with you in that minority; I like "What Goes On," a chaotic song held together by Paul's bass work. I love the jagged guitar work, something they didn't do often, but did well here. JcS |
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Post by John S. Damm on Jun 10, 2010 10:47:51 GMT -5
THE BEATLES, SIDE 4
The "Revolution Trilogy" of "Revolution," Revolution 1" and "Revolution 9" are among the most important music The Beatles ever made. The world was exploding in 1968 and Youth were so close to creating a new order taking the best of capitalism and socialism and creating a Utopian society.
The fuse was lit and bands like The Rolling Stones and MC-5 were advocating violent change. Up until the "Revolution Trilogy," The Beatles were content to be trendy, sipping lemonade in their mansions and expanding their minds with drugs.
John Lennon put The Beatles back onto the streets with his call for mostly peaceful change but change nonetheless. He waffles on Rev-1 as to violence but it is a difficult topic.
Two of the three parts of "Revolution Trilogy" appear on The Beatles, Side 4 making it an important Side of music.
"Savoy Truffle" is a solid George song and "Cry Baby Cry" is an unsung Lennon classic tagged with Paul's haunting, "Can You Take Me Back."
There can be no question but that Rubber Soul, Side 2 is a great Side of music. Pop music at its best in fact. But the "Revolution Trilogy" was and remains too important to be summarily dismissed. In fact, though mass revolution did not take place in the 1960's toppling all governments, might we be there now as it seems all forms of existing government are running on empty.
THE BEATLES, SIDE 4 could again become socially vital.
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JCV
Very Clean
Posts: 545
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Post by JCV on Jun 10, 2010 12:13:02 GMT -5
RUBBER SOUL, Side 2No contest for me here. I love the older stuff.  JCV 
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lowbasso
A Hard Day's Knight
Posts: 2,776
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Post by lowbasso on Jun 10, 2010 14:40:50 GMT -5
THE BEATLES, SIDE 4The "Revolution Trilogy" of "Revolution," Revolution 1" and "Revolution 9" are among the most important music The Beatles ever made. IMO; Revolution 9 is not a song, just a bunch of noise and nonsense that John was able to get released on the White Album. Probably thanks to Yoko... And the other two "versions" are just the same song at different tempos. Paul and the others convinced John to do the song at a slow tempo, but he wanted it done faster, so they recorded it both ways. Personally, I prefer the slow version. |
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Post by joeyself on Jun 10, 2010 16:14:04 GMT -5
And the other two "versions" are just the same song at different tempos. Paul and the others convinced John to do the song at a slow tempo, but he wanted it done faster, so they recorded it both ways. Personally, I prefer the slow version. I think you have it backward. Here's from a 1980 Lennon interview: “We recorded the song twice,” John Lennon explained in one of his last interviews. “The Beatles were getting really tense with one another. I did the slow version and I wanted it out as a single ¯ as a statement of the Beatles' position on Vietnam and the Beatles’ position on revolution. For years, on the Beatle tours, Epstein had stopped us from saying anything about Vietnam or the war. And he wouldn't allow questions about it. But on one tour, I said, ‘I am going to answer about the war. We can't ignore it.’ I absolutely wanted the Beatles to say something.”
“The first take of ‘Revolution’ ¯ well, George and Paul were resentful and said it wasn't fast enough,” Lennon said with the frankness that had long been his trademark. “Now, if you go into details of what a hit record is and isn’t ¯ maybe. But the Beatles could have afforded to put out the slow, understandable version of ‘Revolution’ as a single. Whether it was a gold record or a wooden record. But because they were so upset about the Yoko period and the fact that I was again becoming as creative and dominating as I had been in the early days, after lying fallow for a couple of years, it upset the apple cart. I was awake again and they couldn't stand it.”www.gibson.com/en-us/Lifestyle/Features/beatles-you-say-you-want-a/JcS |
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lowbasso
A Hard Day's Knight
Posts: 2,776
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Post by lowbasso on Jun 11, 2010 1:38:52 GMT -5
And the other two "versions" are just the same song at different tempos. Paul and the others convinced John to do the song at a slow tempo, but he wanted it done faster, so they recorded it both ways. Personally, I prefer the slow version. I think you have it backward. Here's from a 1980 Lennon interview: “We recorded the song twice,” John Lennon explained in one of his last interviews. “The Beatles were getting really tense with one another. I did the slow version and I wanted it out as a single ¯ as a statement of the Beatles' position on Vietnam and the Beatles’ position on revolution. For years, on the Beatle tours, Epstein had stopped us from saying anything about Vietnam or the war. And he wouldn't allow questions about it. But on one tour, I said, ‘I am going to answer about the war. We can't ignore it.’ I absolutely wanted the Beatles to say something.”
“The first take of ‘Revolution’ ¯ well, George and Paul were resentful and said it wasn't fast enough,” Lennon said with the frankness that had long been his trademark. “Now, if you go into details of what a hit record is and isn’t ¯ maybe. But the Beatles could have afforded to put out the slow, understandable version of ‘Revolution’ as a single. Whether it was a gold record or a wooden record. But because they were so upset about the Yoko period and the fact that I was again becoming as creative and dominating as I had been in the early days, after lying fallow for a couple of years, it upset the apple cart. I was awake again and they couldn't stand it.”www.gibson.com/en-us/Lifestyle/Features/beatles-you-say-you-want-a/JcS Sorry about that. I stand corrected. I thought John wanted it faster. I remembered a video of the faster version where John seemed to be really emotionally involved, so I thought he preferred the faster version. But I guess it was the other way around. But I did remember he wanted it at one tempo, and Paul & George wanted it at another. Still, other than the tempo, there is not much difference in the two versions, other than the "count me out/in" lyric. |
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Joseph McCabe
Very Clean
A rebel to his last breath ...
Posts: 912
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Post by Joseph McCabe on Jun 11, 2010 1:46:03 GMT -5
To be honest, I do find these sorts of "tourneys" or "competitions" a bit forced and a bit twee, but they SHOULD excite discussion, which is always fun. (By the way, why isn't this thread in "The Competitions" section?)
Anyway, I was out today in the wind and the cold, in the Australian Bush, and as I trudged along I had these thoughts:
(1) Rubber Soul side 1 is the adventurous, creative side. Side 2 is the "not-so-good" side. What Goes On, Wait, Run For Your Life are - for want of a better word - goofy songs. They're nice, but light & trite. Girl is good, with excellent lyrics, but spoiled by the "tit-tit-tit" stuff which I find detracts severly these days from my enjoyment of the song. Tit-tit-tit? A bit immature! And thoselong inhales? Not subtle guys - I get it. I'm Looking Through You is excellent, as is If I Needed Someone. In My Life is also very good, but for me a song remembering the past, and all the "friends & lovers" comes a little adrift when it seems to become just a song about the singer's newest lover.
(2) But Side 4 of The White Album. Now look - this album is much more than a collection of songs. It has a sweep across the world of popular song unlike any other album (maybe the styles The Clash embraced in London Calling and Sandinista comes close). I maintain now, and have for years, that every Beatle Fan should listen to this album from start to finish in one hit once a year (or, more often!). Picking a song here and a song there to listen to from TWA is like picking at the food in a feast; don't do it - you are meant to eat the lot. And as such, Side 4 has its Beatle genius. Revolution 1 is one angle that John takes on revolution. I find this song's "in-out" indecision fantastically important, as many of us, back in 1968, felt exactly this indecision. The risky collage that is Revolution 9 is, I say, a quite intelligent and sustained account of a revolution in progress - the start, the development, the consummation, the denoument are all there. Song? Not a song? I don't care - this Lennon has a unique and clever brain; I know what he is trying to do and I think he should be congratulated for trying - and in my view succeding.
Now, Honey Pie. Why do so many loathe this song? It is a wonderful example of its genre. Macca has written a tight storyline, set to interesting and well played music and sound effects. Come on, it's great. Savoy Truffle is George adding another piece of evidence that he has grown as a song writer (and arranger) in a complex song. (Is it really about chocolate? I feel your taste all the time we're apart? Like in a lot of Harrisongs, I feel there's more that one story going on here!) Cry Baby Cry - Lennon doing his Lewis Carroll thing again, and managing to be a little creepy about it. and Good Night - do you see that it could even be part of Rev 9? The contrast between the two styles is huge, and yet ...
The White Album, Side 4 for me!
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2010 3:03:20 GMT -5
RUBBER SOUL, Side 2 for me...
I'm not a big fan of some parts of the The Beatles White album,especially side 4..
The standard of songs on side 4 is quite low, in fact ,this is one reason why their are no unknown or substandard Beatles songs in the vault, they were all used on side 4 of The Beatles album......they could have released side 4 as an EP and called it Beatles Dross....
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Post by RockoRoll on Jun 11, 2010 3:22:18 GMT -5
Rubber Soul - Side 2.
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Post by joeyself on Jun 11, 2010 7:09:07 GMT -5
To be honest, I do find these sorts of "tourneys" or "competitions" a bit forced and a bit twee, but they SHOULD excite discussion, which is always fun. (By the way, why isn't this thread in "The Competitions" section?) The discussion is the reason for the games, which is why they aren't in the Competitions section--yet. I've chatted with JSD about archiving these in that section after a round is over, so as not to clutter this part of the board. Anyway, I was out today in the wind and the cold, in the Australian Bush, and as I trudged along I had these thoughts:
(2) But Side 4 of The White Album. ...I maintain now, and have for years, that every Beatle Fan should listen to this album from start to finish in one hit once a year (or, more often!). Picking a song here and a song there to listen to from TWA is like picking at the food in a feast; don't do it - you are meant to eat the lot. You hit upon the reason for this tourney; Beatle albums were programmed for listening to a side at a time--nothing wrong with picking up the vinyl and throwing on the second (or 3rd and 4th) side--and in this era of shuffle play on CD and MP3 players, that element of the catalog could be overlooked.
The risky collage that is Revolution 9 is, I say, a quite intelligent and sustained account of a revolution in progress - the start, the development, the consummation, the denoument are all there. Song? Not a song? I don't care - this Lennon has a unique and clever brain; I know what he is trying to do and I think he should be congratulated for trying - and in my view succeding.
We disagree on the success of the piece, and maybe even on what Lennon was really trying to do, but we concur on giving Lennon (and Ono) a thumb's up for the effort. I just believe it would have been better on TWO VIRGINS or LIFE WITH THE LIONS. Savoy Truffle is George adding another piece of evidence that he has grown as a song writer (and arranger) in a complex song. (Is it really about chocolate? I feel your taste all the time we're apart? Like in a lot of Harrisongs, I feel there's more that one story going on here!) Maybe, but given the lyrics in the rest of the song, and the "have to them all pulled out" line, I can see where a person would FEEL the taste after the chocolate was out of the mouth. JcS |
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Post by vectisfabber on Jun 11, 2010 8:40:59 GMT -5
A fun and thoughtful (and thought provoking) critique of the two sides, JoeMcC - thanks!
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Post by John S. Damm on Jun 11, 2010 9:30:31 GMT -5
This tourney is being initially placed in this Section because it is hoped that the voting is a catalyst for discussion and it is recognized that this Section has the highest volume of participation.
After this first Round is over, and all votes and discussions seem to be exhausted as we start the next Round, the Round 1 entries will be moved into the Competition Section but will remain open.
Joey approached me first and in effect sought a "zoning variance." Steve Marinucci has been duly advised and the variance granted. The question by Joseph McCabe is an entirely appropriate one as this issue of location may have arisen in the past in some other form. The request made was logical and discussion is good.
I am delighted to read Mr. McCabe's opinions and note his vote as we stand united in that regard. I would not have voted this way even two years ago but between the unofficial release a year or so ago of the extended "Revolution 1" and my recent readings on revolution and societal change sought by the counter-culture in the late 1960's, I feel the "Revolution Trilogy" is very significant in The Beatles' lore and legacy.
"Revolution 9" does capture the feel of revolution all in 12 or 13 minutes on a piece of plastic! It scared the heck out of me at the age of 14 and any art that conjures up extreme emotion like that is effective art. Revolution will be terrifying. We are on the verge of such as the world's governments, business leaders, religious leaders, and cultural leaders are all bankrupt on ideas, money and energy.
The Beatles, Side 4 may be the only Side of Beatles' music that will matter in the next twenty years.
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Post by joeyself on Jun 11, 2010 15:26:37 GMT -5
I voted for RUBBER SOUL, but it was a bit closer than it appears it was for some. I like the first three tracks on Side 4 of TB, but it starts going downhill for me with "Cry Baby Cry" and never recovers. "Revolution 9" is OK for what it is, but I don't much care for audio collage stuff.
On the other hand, "I'm Looking Through You" is better than anything on TB 4, and I like the balance of the side, save for "Girl," which has never been a favorite. So I went for RS 2.
JcS
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Post by Steve Marinucci on Jun 11, 2010 23:39:46 GMT -5
Tough one, but I went for the White Album. The songs were overall much better. Yes, including "Revolution No. 9."
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Jun 12, 2010 6:01:59 GMT -5
I voted for RUBBER SOUL. Subjectively, I just think there are more good songs on RS side 2 than there are on TB 4.
I love The White Album, but Side 4 is the weakest of the 4 sides. I never liked the slow version of REVOLUTION (zzzzzzzzzz), I prefer the fast and heavy B-side single version. I recognize what Paul was trying to do with HONEY PIE, but I just don't care for his sissy stuff there. I'm not as hard on GOODNIGHT as many fans are, but it still isn't anything to bring the house down. And REVOLUTION 9, while perhaps interesting as an experiment, isn't anything I like to listen to for enjoyment. I think SAVOY TRUFFLE and CRY BABY CRY are the best two songs on Side 4, but that's only two.
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Jun 12, 2010 6:15:56 GMT -5
In My Life is also very good, but for me a song remembering the past, and all the "friends & lovers" comes a little adrift when it seems to become just a song about the singer's newest lover. Just wanted to say that I have always felt similarly. That is, I prefer the early part of the song where John's reminiscing about the past and all those in his life who he's loved, who are dead and who remain. But then it becomes something else with his "new love who he loves more" stuff. Agreed. Meh. Maybe. But not with this line, I don't think. I don't believe there are hidden meanings here ... it's a pretty straight forward funny song about the different types of chocolates, what they do to you, how they'll rot your teeth, and how they can affect you. I believe the line you quote here is simply a way to rhyme "apple tart". The singer is so obsessed with his chocolate binges that he can even taste it when he's away from it and not eating it, just thinking about it. |
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Post by wherewegoingfellas on Jun 12, 2010 8:16:35 GMT -5
Rubber Soul - Side 2.
That was an easy one for me.
Thinking back this was the first album that i prefered to listen to side 2.
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Post by theman on Jun 12, 2010 9:10:18 GMT -5
Wow! This one was easy for me. I just looked at each list and, from the perspective of today's ability to skip over songs, thought, which songs on each side would I listen to from start to finsh.
On RS 2, those songs would be:
"I'm Looking Through You"--glad McCartney has gotten around to this one in concert
"In My Life" --didn't Paul have something to do with this one:)
"If I Needed Someone"--Great jangly guitar work
While, from White Album 4:
"Revolution 1"--Unfairly maligned (but loved the video version where they kinda mixed the two versions)
"Honey Pie" --I love these "Fruity Paul" pieces
"Savoy Truffle"--Best use of sax on a Beatles song?
"Cry Baby Cry"--Great, haunting song
"Good Night"--Sang this to my kids when they were wee tykes
I think people are holding Revolution #9 way too much against this side. However, at over 8 minutes, it does tend to dominate, so I get the reaction.
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Post by John S. Damm on Jun 12, 2010 11:34:25 GMT -5
Good discussions folks.
Remember to vote in the Round 1, Match 1 pitting AHDN-2 versus BFS-2. 16 people have voted there while a whopping 19 and counting have voted here.
I hope this is well attended. Just think of the possibility of discussion for a McCartney album side tourney because of the sheer quantity and often quality or even a Lennon and Harrison one! Maybe we could talk Joey into those later.
These make me dip into my music shelf when I might not otherwise.
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Joseph McCabe
Very Clean
A rebel to his last breath ...
Posts: 912
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Post by Joseph McCabe on Jun 12, 2010 16:27:42 GMT -5
Maybe. But not with this line, I don't think. I don't believe there are hidden meanings here ... it's a pretty straight forward funny song about the different types of chocolates, what they do to you, how they'll rot your teeth, and how they can affect you. I believe the line you quote here is simply a way to rhyme "apple tart". The singer is so obsessed with his chocolate binges that he can even taste it when he's away from it and not eating it, just thinking about it. The song is CLEARLY written about chocolates (Clapton's love of them), having teeth pulled out and the accompanying pain (Clapton needed dental work due to tooth decay) , etc etc. No doubt. BUT ... All authors will attest to the fact that writing can take on a life of its own, and things you didn't intend suddenly blossom forth. Characters take on "lives" that can lead their author along pathways he hadn't dreamed of when he sat down to write. Situations and circumstances suddenly have angles and unintended meanings. Postmodernists would think this is obvious, and further would give to the reader/listener important roles in dissecting texts, songs, etc. (I am certainly not a postmodernist, but they do have some good insights.) Consider just these points: (1) Cool cherry cream - what could that also mean; "cherry"? "cream"? (2) Nice apple tart - apple? tart? "apple tart"? (3) I feel your taste all the time we're apart - taste? and later (4) And this verse is on at least two levels, definitely: You know that what you eat you are, But what is sweet now, turns so sour We all know Obladi-Blada But can you show me, where you are? He ain't just talking about chocolate here! I think this might be the first occasion in song that George had a l'il dig at Paulie. |
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Post by joeyself on Jun 12, 2010 17:13:22 GMT -5
Good discussions folks.
Remember to vote in the Round 1, Match 1 pitting AHDN-2 versus BFS-2. 16 people have voted there while a whopping 19 and counting have voted here. Yes, the discussions ARE good. The voting for each match will be left open until about a week after the 11th and final match of this round is posted. So if a player gets behind, or is just starting, feel free to vote/comment. Seems doable, but it wouldn't have to be me to do it. The format isn't difficult to master... Which may well be the prime reason I run these games. JcS |
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Post by coachbk on Jun 12, 2010 21:01:26 GMT -5
I HATE the slow Revolution.
I LOVE the fast Revolution single as well as the promo that is fast with the "shoo be doo" part.
Revolution #9 is different, but not really a song.
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Jun 13, 2010 11:54:22 GMT -5
All authors will attest to the fact that writing can take on a life of its own, and things you didn't intend suddenly blossom forth. Characters take on "lives" that can lead their author along pathways he hadn't dreamed of when he sat down to write. Situations and circumstances suddenly have angles and unintended meanings. Postmodernists would think this is obvious, and further would give to the reader/listener important roles in dissecting texts, songs, etc. (I am certainly not a postmodernist, but they do have some good insights.) Well, we can go anywhere with interpretations of 'subtexts', which I think is part of the problem. Because what usually happens with discussions like these -- while they can indeed become very interesting and thought-provoking -- is that they're never anything more than people's "theories"... and that's okay, except that what tends to occur is that the one making the observation usually thinks it's a "fact". This occurs in movie conversations all the time. I recall one Laurel & Hardy comedy where Hardy's wife is getting sick and tired of her husband spending so much time with Laurel. So Hardy says to his friend: "The wife says I think more of you than I do of her!" Then Laurel responds: "Well, you do, don't ya?" and Hardy says "Well, we won't get into THAT!". And so help me, I've heard people insist that this was a "homosexual subtext"! ;D Now, I'm not saying that's not an interesting idea or theory, but the person making the observation basically concludes: "Yes, the subtext is there and if you don't see it that way, you're wrong". (Not sure at this point if that's what you're concluding!) Taste? Yes, I taste the chocolates even when I'm not eating them, I crave them so much even when I'm away from them. Oh, I can see George kind of word-playing it to have a kind of double-meaning, if that's what you mean (wording it in such a way as he would with a lover). By the way -- I'm not positive here, but didn't George just read the actual different flavored candy names straight from the box? Kind of like what Lennon did off the poster for MR. KITE? He didn't "create" the names APPLE TART and CHERRY CREAM, did he? And I would agree with that one. |
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vs. 3 good-to-decent songs on WA side 4 (Cry, Savoy, Honey Pie), 1 anomaly (Good Night), 1 dirge (Rev 1) and 1 WTF? (Rev 9). 
;D
