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Post by superhans on Oct 22, 2008 9:26:56 GMT -5
Do Andersson / Ulvaeus (Abba) deserve to be mentioned in the same breath as Lennon / McCartney?
Superhans.
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Post by Steve Marinucci on Oct 22, 2008 10:03:09 GMT -5
Do Andersson / Ulvaeus (Abba) deserve to be mentioned in the same breath as Lennon / McCartney? Superhans. Even though I'm a big ABBA fan, on the basis of the "Mamma Mia" movie, I'd definitely say no.
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Post by alltouttt on Oct 22, 2008 10:15:14 GMT -5
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Post by John S. Damm on Oct 22, 2008 11:17:36 GMT -5
Quick answer: No. They have some great songs but not in the league of Lennon/McCartney.
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Post by John S. Damm on Oct 22, 2008 11:20:30 GMT -5
ABBA is the antichrist of music ... LOL! The ABBA guy on the far right looks kind of like images I've seen of our poster friend, gottafeelin!
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Post by mikev on Oct 22, 2008 12:43:54 GMT -5
Are they musicians or singers?
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Post by superhans on Oct 22, 2008 12:46:07 GMT -5
Are they musicians or singers? As songwriters.
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JMG
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Post by JMG on Oct 22, 2008 15:43:10 GMT -5
In a word...NO!
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Oct 22, 2008 16:18:19 GMT -5
I love ABBA. At least their 10 or so big hits... but they're not as great as Lennon/Macca.
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Post by sayne on Oct 22, 2008 16:37:39 GMT -5
For me, to seriously answer that question, I would have to tack on a bunch of qualifiers. If we are talking about songs as "art", probably not. If we are talking about the ability to craft well-written songs that are popular, the answer is "yes." If we are talking rock, no way. If nice innocent pop, then "yes." How many pop/rock writers can we ACTUALLY mention in the same breath as Lennon/McCartney? Before that is answered, remember, John and Paul wrote artistic, popular, and important songs which encompassed a variety of styles. Sometimes, a song was artistic, popular, and imporant ALL AT THE SAME TIME. Yes, we can name many writers who can match, and MAYBE surpass them in one area or another, but the whole package? No. Take Leonard Cohen or Joni Mitchell or Tom Waits. GREAT writers. Probably referenced for years to come. But, popular? Accessible? Eclectic? Motivational? Inspirational? etc. Nah. Take Billy Joel or the Brothers Gibb. Very popular, but artistic enough to be studied? Perhaps now in some places, but not 20, 30, 40 years from now, in my opinion . Jagger/Richard, Dylan, Neil Young? World class, historical, but nowhere near as diverse as John and Paul were. So, I guess this is a very long-winded way of saying that "yes," I think that Andersson / Ulvaeus can be said in the same breath if we are talking about well-crafted, hook-laden pop songs. If the parameters are changed and expanded, probably not. ________ As a partial aside, I used to use as my argument to defend my ABBA "guilty pleasure" that if one where to make a top 15 list of any artist's best songs - Beatles, Dylan, Led Zep, Yes, Tull, Beach Boys, Cream, Nirvana, Bee Gees, Supremes, Elton John, etc. ABBA would be competitive. Sure, as the list got longer, their quality would diminish compared to the Beatles, but not really so much compared to a lot of others. Oh, man, as a lover of a good pop song, I have to say that ABBA's hooks had hooks! ____________ Sorry for not giving a quick answer to a quick question.
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Post by mikev on Oct 22, 2008 18:12:57 GMT -5
They wrote great hits, but what about staying power? I say no. The songs they wrote had some staying power via the musical, etc. But what did they write in the 80s and 90s?
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Post by revolver66 on Oct 23, 2008 2:01:33 GMT -5
The Thing with Abba quite like the band Queen was they were never as popular in the USA as they were in most other countries. The Beatles were HUGE everywhere and for good reason! Abba have some good stuff but do they truly have Classic Albums? I have them all and think a few are really really good but not on the level of any of the Beatles Masterworks.If you get the best of Abba you are basically set. Definitely not so with the Beatles. I guess my answer to the question is no. ;D
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Post by vectisfabber on Oct 23, 2008 3:49:32 GMT -5
I think the fact that Abba is looked down on as an act (camp, cheesy) does the Anderson/Ulvaeus (and sometimes Stig Andersson) songwriting team a disservice.
Musically Abba's material is, I think, as strong as McCartney's Beatle music in its (and his) entirety. It tends not to have Lennon's undisciplined and illogical, but effective, leaps against musical convention, nor George's quirks - Benny Anderson is far too musically conventional for that, as is McCartney.
Lyrically, I think Abba's songs very often have better lyrics than Lennon/McCartney. The Abba guys were writing in a language which wasn't their native language and, while that sometimes manifests in expressive clumsinesses ("Since many years I haven't held a rifle in my hands"), it means that they exercised much more care over their lyrics than John and Paul often did, particularly in the early years. The better positioning of sings in the movie Mamma Mia! show just how good some of those lyrics are.
The question "which is better" isn't entirely fair - which is better, hamburger or pineapple? It all depends on what you're in the mood for, because both, in their own way, are excellent.
And I've been to see over 50 of this year's movies since May (our multiplex is doing a season ticket kind of deal), and I've enjoyed Mamma Mia! more than all of them (including Dark Knight and Wall-E). The first 10 minutes I thought "My God, this is cheesy" but then the joyousness of it transcended the cheesiness. I defy anyone to watch the Dancing Queen sequence without an ever-broadening smile spreading across their face.
Having said that, it won't be to everyone's taste, of course, but it was certainly to mine.
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Post by sayne on Oct 23, 2008 7:38:10 GMT -5
Lyrically, I think Abba's songs very often have better lyrics than Lennon/McCartney. I once read the lyrics to "The Visitor" to some people without telling them it was ABBA and they were surprised when I told them. "Knowing Me Knowing You" is a very deep song. Didn't Pete Townsend say that "SOS" was the most perfect pop song of all time and Brian May said that ABBA wrote some of the best pop songs of all time. So, people ought not be so fast on ABBA put downs. Your post is dead-on - especially in relation to Paul.
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Post by mikev on Oct 23, 2008 11:40:02 GMT -5
I actually wrote and recorded a song Seeing You, Knowing Me that was influenced by that tile, but my song takes a different pop/rock direction.
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Post by John S. Damm on Oct 23, 2008 16:26:31 GMT -5
Lyrically, I think Abba's songs very often have better lyrics than Lennon/McCartney. I once read the lyrics to "The Visitor" to some people without telling them it was ABBA and they were surprised when I told them. "Knowing Me Knowing You" is a very deep song. Didn't Pete Townsend say that "SOS" was the most perfect pop song of all time and Brian May said that ABBA wrote some of the best pop songs of all time. So, people ought not be so fast on ABBA put downs. Your post is dead-on - especially in relation to Paul. Not to mention the stirring "Waterloo" which invokes a part of history rarely covered in a pop song. I think ABBA is great but still not as great as The Beatles. They are up there though in the scheme of things. ABBA was strong musically but The Beatles were the entire package: youthful good looks, compelling personalities, cultural groundbreakers and, oh yeah, great music. And I never knew vectis was such a "movie musical" kind of guy! You must have seen "Sound Of Music" a hundred times!
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Post by sallyg on Oct 23, 2008 17:49:58 GMT -5
I would say that although I enjoy ABBA's music, the songwriters from ABBA are not in the same league as Lennon and McCartney.
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Post by vectisfabber on Oct 24, 2008 3:39:17 GMT -5
And I never knew vectis was such a "movie musical" kind of guy! You must have seen "Sound Of Music" a hundred times! I avoided The Sound Of Music until the 90s, put off by the years and years of hype. Of course, it turns out that years and years of hype is usually justified, because it's a pretty solid piece of work! But I've been a fan of the standard Hollywood musicals since childhood (I have a particular soft spot for Calamity Jane, and I think Higher Than A Hawk is one of the most perfect songs ever). I'm not as fond of modern musicals, although I was tickled pink by Moulin Rouge.
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Post by superhans on Oct 24, 2008 6:10:59 GMT -5
To answer my own question, I do think that Andersson / Ulvaeus deserve to be mentioned in the same breath as Lennon / McCartney.
Overall, Lennon / McCartney are the superior songwriters. There's no doubt about that. Their canon of songs has more depth, innovation and variety than the Swedes'.
However, I would say that Benny and Bjorn mastered the art of writing the perfect pop song. This takes an incredibly rare genius - and they had it in abundance. For this reason, I'm sure that people will still be playing their music in two-or-three hundred years time (as they will Lennon / McCartney) and for this reason I think both songwriting partnerships can be paired together.
In fact, I would go as far as to say that in Europe Abba's songs have more currency with the general public than the Beatles. If you go to a wedding, a birthday party, a works night out, or any social event, you are more likely to hear 'Dancing Queen' than 'Hey Jude' -- 'SOS' than 'Let it be' and 'Gimme, gimme, gimme...' than 'Help'. They are seen as 'good time', feel-good, uplifting party songs, rather than the more anthemic, but less exciting, Beatles songs. In particular, Abba songs seem to resonate more with young people than Beatle songs - probably for this very reason.
...I would be interested in Vectis' opinion (or other UK Boards members) as to whether this is true in the UK.
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JMG
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Post by JMG on Oct 24, 2008 7:07:56 GMT -5
After reading this thread I guess I'll have to pick up ABBA's greatest hits and revisit their music. I don't have one disc by them in my CD collection as I've always dismissed ABBA as lightweights. Not as lightweight as the Partridge Family but lightweights nonetheless.
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Post by OldFred on Oct 24, 2008 7:58:26 GMT -5
Are Mick Jagger and Keith Richards as good as Lennon & McCartney as song writers?
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Post by vectisfabber on Oct 24, 2008 10:23:55 GMT -5
No.
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Post by johnpaulharstar on Oct 24, 2008 11:50:35 GMT -5
Do Andersson / Ulvaeus (Abba) deserve to be mentioned in the same breath as Lennon / McCartney? Superhans. NO Although I do think Andersson/Ulvaeus could be mentioned in the same breath as Paul McCartney solo artist. They aren't as good because they didn't have as much variety as Paul and their album tracks were weaker, but there best hit singles stand up well next to Paul's more commercial stuff
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Post by John S. Damm on Oct 24, 2008 12:50:35 GMT -5
Are Mick Jagger and Keith Richards as good as Lennon & McCartney as song writers? Often.
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Post by johnpaulharstar on Oct 24, 2008 20:21:36 GMT -5
Are Mick Jagger and Keith Richards as good as Lennon & McCartney as song writers? Not even close. They had some good singles, but nowhere near the depth of material as Lennon/McCartney
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Post by ursamajor on Oct 25, 2008 18:39:29 GMT -5
Abba Gold is good but that's where it ends. Their greatest hits really are great hits but they don't have the consistency or variety of the Beatles.
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Post by sayne on Oct 25, 2008 21:45:56 GMT -5
Abba Gold is good but that's where it ends. Their greatest hits really are great hits but they don't have the consistency or variety of the Beatles. Yeah, if one wanted just one CD to encapsulate them, but I would suggest adding the song "The Visitor" to your ABBA collection. The sound and lyrics will surprise you. It would be like the New Kids on the Block coming up with "A Day in the Life", but with a dance beat. One would be surprised that they had it in them.
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Post by ursamajor on Oct 25, 2008 22:29:34 GMT -5
Abba Gold is good but that's where it ends. Their greatest hits really are great hits but they don't have the consistency or variety of the Beatles. Yeah, if one wanted just one CD to encapsulate them, but I would suggest adding the song "The Visitor" to your ABBA collection. The sound and lyrics will surprise you. It would be like the New Kids on the Block coming up with "A Day in the Life", but with a dance beat. One would be surprised that they had it in them. Ok.. I'll check out that song.. if you wanted to take it a step further.. the solo Beatles did have some great successes.. Bjorn and Benny continued to work together but I don't think they made anything to match their best work with Abba. I know they did musical opera piece called Chess and it was in the news at the time but I have not heard anything from them since then.
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nine
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Post by nine on Oct 26, 2008 3:58:39 GMT -5
Do Andersson / Ulvaeus (Abba) deserve to be mentioned in the same breath as Lennon / McCartney? Superhans. I really appreciated this band after seeing Bjorn Again. Does Your Mother Know rocked. Benny is a creative genius. Whenever I have a few and I tell my friends this they look at me kind of strange. I quickly have to move onto Acker Dakka (AC/DC) to redeem myself. Gimme A Man After Midnight is fantastic. I can see why Madonna used the lick. Benny is in fine form. The clip is brilliant. I dunno what Bjorn did though??? Oh and the girls are great in this too. Frida looked like she was fun... And Anna's voice is great... Oh and the Bon years were infinitly superior to the Brian Johnston ones... 9
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nine
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Post by nine on Oct 26, 2008 4:01:09 GMT -5
An act that I don't know anything about - apart from the cool Cool For Cats - but who get the critics throthing at the mouth is Squeeze. Apparantly they wrote perfect pop songs....
9
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