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Post by John S. Damm on Aug 17, 2012 10:03:33 GMT -5
Speaking of Cher, Mike you are our expert on 1970's popular culture. Didn't Sonny & Cher and Donny and Marie Osmond team up for a scorching Macca cover? Not sure if that is a complement...yes I posted it already (July 11-Quartet from Hell)- not something we need to see again...ever. I did not miss your "Jack Tripper's friend Larry" comment somewhere around here! ;D Yoko's participation in the suggested 1981 Tour would have been interesting to say the least no matter whether one admires or dislikes Yoko's music. What might have been accepted in Bonn, New York City, Los Angeles or San Francisco may have gone over like a lead balloon in Chicago, Atlanta, Houston, London, etc. In 1980, I was immersed in Chicago A.M. and F.M. radio stations and I can swear on a stack of comic books that John's DF songs were getting heavy airplay pre-murder. On A.M. we were hearing "(Just Like) Starting Over" nonstop but on F.M. we were hearing everything else in very heavy rotation especially "I'm Losing You," "Watching The Wheels," and even "Woman" before it was picked up by A.M. after the murder. Yoko's songs were a different matter. F.M. pioneer Shock Jock Steve Dahl on the "LOOP" considered "Kiss Kiss Kiss" disco and ran the arm across the record, scratching it, as he did all disco songs and the WLS DJ's openly mocked the Yoko songs. That 1981 tour would have been interesting. I had tickets for Yoko's 1985 "Star Peace" tour as she was scheduled to play the Holiday Star Theater in Merrillville, Indiana. That tour was canceled in the U.S. for lack of ticket sales. I still have my tickets somewhere in storage. While I think Yoko's DF songs are very engaging within the context of John's songs, yeah the announced 1981 tour would have been interesting to say the least and maybe not in ways John and Yoko would have liked. And Rocko mentioned doing a thread on this years ago. Wasn't there also talk by John himself of changing the arrangements to some of The Beatles songs? Now him doing "Help!" slow might have been cool but if 40 year old Liverpool John was to turn "I Want To Hold Your Hand" into whiteman's reggae then the crowd might not have dug that either, let alone Yoko's songs. John's murder clearly created a lot of "what ifs" and this announced but not fully booked yet 1981 tour is one of them. It was more real though than most other John "What ifs" because John actually talked about it a little. Live Aid is a "what if" that is pure speculation. |
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Post by mikev on Aug 17, 2012 10:52:33 GMT -5
Not sure if that is a complement...yes I posted it already (July 11-Quartet from Hell)- not something we need to see again...ever. I did not miss your "Jack Tripper's friend Larry" comment somewhere around here! ;D Hmmm...must have been somewhere over the rainbow  ... oops I pulled a boner.... that was Judy Garland NOT Cher... ;D  |
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Post by mikev on Aug 17, 2012 16:11:15 GMT -5
The John "co" comeback might have been an agreement with Yoko to get back into the mainstream just as Paul took his family on the road with him.
I'd rather take John like that studio wise and live wise vs. him staying locked up in the Dakota.
I'll always wonder if he didn't comeback at that time would we have still had him around, but you really just can't go there.
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Aug 17, 2012 17:45:36 GMT -5
It's a stretch, to put it mildly, to suggest that Yoko had songwriting talent. Yoko's writing, "Imagine the clouds dripping", etc. does not equate having songwriting talent I'd say some of her actual self-written songs indicate that Yoko had some degree of songwriting talent. She wrote songs, some of them good. And many of them with poetic, interesting and thought-provoking lyrics. Many of them more involved lyrically than some of McCartney's "ditties", in fact. That is a matter of opinion. Many will agree with you, some will not. It's all subjective; for example, I don't happen to agree with any of your tastes regarding the "power pop songs", or whatever that other discussion of yours was about. As compared to whom? Barbra Streisand? I'll have to agree with you there. As compared to offbeat acts like The B-52's? Then I'm not so sure. I enjoy Linda Ronstadt, Christine McVie, Stevie Nicks, Barbra Streisand.... but when I'm in another mood I also enjoy Janis Joplin and Joan Jett. And I also can and do enjoy Yoko Ono when I'm in the mood (though I'm not a fan of her screaming and noise-making efforts). I would think you could appreciate better than most that there are all sorts of "offbeat singers"...? First of all, I am a Cher fan. Secondly, I used her as an example only because someone else used that old chestnut: "if it weren't for John, Yoko wouldn't have been anything in music" [or any other such variation of that idea]. All I was doing was illustrating that Yoko is not the only one who got an advantage because of her partner. There is this absurd mentality out there (going way beyond just Yoko) that automatically just because a person is someone's wife, or husband, that they do not have any potential at all. There is also this silly mentality that in order to be any good, you must take years and years and years to hone your craft. The truth is, the next great singer for all we know could be working in a bakery right now making donuts. The next Sir Laurence Olivier actor may be selling used cars as we speak right now. Stars HAVE been discovered that way, you know. Yet the fact is, Yoko did and does have her fans. And people did go to her concerts (by the way, I have never been to any, just so you know). And futhermore, Yoko did, in fact, inspire acts like The B-52s and Lene Lovich (spelling?). There also has been an album with other renowned artists covering her songs. I am not claiming that Yoko Ono is a "great singer and songwriter". But I have enjoyed some of her music. I love GOODBYE SADNESS from her SEASON OF GLASS album, just for instance. I think if she wasn't "Yoko Ono, The Woman Who Stole Beatle John", and instead had just come out alone and made herself known to the world as some offbeat '70s and '80s punk/new wave/techno pop act, she would have stood a better chance. |
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Aug 17, 2012 17:54:31 GMT -5
Cher is a bad example because she can actually sing (and much better than Sonny). Some other comments: 1) I like Cher myself. I'm a fan with many of her songs in my collection. 2) Who says "Cher can actually sing"? You? Me? Sonny? What I am getting at again (and this should be obvious; it's bizarre when I have to explain self-evident things like this) ... is that it's all a matter of perception. There are people out there who DON"T like Cher and don't think "she can sing", you know. 3) Okay -- then let us consider Sonny Bono instead. Sonny was recognized and accepted as something of a mastermind and innovator, and as you have said -- Cher could sing much better than Sonny! Now my question --- we all accept Sonny Bono for who and what he was and what he accomplished, right? --- however, what if Cher had arrived first (a la John lennon) and what if Sonny was just "Cher's husband"...(say like a Tom Arnold, or how Yoko was just "Lennon's wife") .... suppose Sonny was just some fella Cher fell in love with and brought in to work on the songs with her, to sing a duet on I GOT YOU BABE...? You KNOW everyone wouldn't take him as serious with Cher as they did. |
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Post by debjorgo on Aug 17, 2012 19:04:10 GMT -5
Sonny wrote many of their hits, I've Got You Babe, The Beat Goes On, A Cowboys Work ..., Bang Bang (My Baby Shot Me Down), Baby Don't Go.
Of course, if Sonny hadn't been there, Cher may have ended up with Phil.
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Post by mikev on Aug 17, 2012 19:40:44 GMT -5
No question Sonny could write a hit. And yes some of his lead vocals do grace number 1 hits. But whether Cher ended up with Phil (God no) or pursued a solo career she was talented.
Sonny had a different type of personality. a bit dorky, but he wrote big hits, ran a huge TV show and was a successful right wing politician. He too would have been successful without Cher.
I don't think Yoko or Linda would have ever gone far above the "B" list of their non-music genres without their famous hubbies, but we'll never know. Musically neither would have gone anywhere though I do believe Yoko had classical piano training, and was not a musical dolt.
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lowbasso
A Hard Day's Knight
Posts: 2,776
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Post by lowbasso on Aug 17, 2012 20:35:24 GMT -5
But comparing Paul and Yoko as songwriters isn't fair. Paul has a true gift for songwriting that unfortunately I don't see (or hear) in anything Yoko has written. How much music did Yoko write before hooking up with John? How commercial was her music? How well does her music sell on its own since John's passing? She is just not anywhere near a level Paul was/is at. I will never attempt to claim that Yoko is a great songwriter, and she's certainly nowhere within Paul's league. However, I will go out on a limb and say that she DOES have some melodic songs, that is if you listen to all her work over the years. Furthermore, Yoko has some terrific LYRICS. As a matter of fact, John's greatest and most enduring signature song, IMAGINE, was inspired by Yoko's words from her own book "GRAPEFRUIT" (in one of John's last interviews he says he should have given her co-author credit). I might argue that Yoko was sometimes capable of better and more meaningful WORDS than Paul was, even. Of course Yoko would never have gotten into pop music without John Lennon. Just like Cher would never have gotten into music without Sonny Bono. Just like scores of other people got their "in" through others, be it music, movies, or whatever else. Elvis was just a truck driver who stopped in one day to record a song for his mom. I believe Bruce Willis was a bartender who got lucky. What does it matter how or through whom someone gets their opportunity? (Pssssttt.... now it's getting to "Yoko Bashing" . But of course, we knew that was bubbling below the surface all along ) Actually I thought I was defending her rather than bashing her with my remarks. To compare her to Paul isn't really fair. She didn't get into songwriting until she hooked up with John and I am sure it was John who encouraged her to do so. Love is blind. John would have told her she was a wonderful songwriter if she had set the phonebook to music. Yoko has spent the last 32 years living alone in the same apartment she shared with John and she has walked by the very spot he was gunned down in cold blood countless times over the years. She loved the guy, a lot, as much as anyone can love another human being. I respect her a lot for that. But she was never a great songwriter. |
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Aug 18, 2012 6:35:10 GMT -5
She didn't get into songwriting until she hooked up with John and I am sure it was John who encouraged her to do so. Love is blind. John would have told her she was a wonderful songwriter if she had set the phonebook to music. So now the only way to be a "real" songwriter is if you were already writing songs all along before you met up with a partner? Would that make George Harrison "not a real songwriter" as well? Sorry, but this is just silly. And as for John telling Yoko what a wonderful songwriter Yoko was, forget about John. The fact is that Yoko's music did influence people and they used her style, and also that there are fans besides only John Lennon who do like her music. Good, then we agree. Because I've said the same thing (I never said "great"). But that's different from insisting "she's not a songwriter at all, period" just because she's the wife of a Beatle. On the contrary, though they are in the minority, there are fans who enjoy Yoko's music. Sorry, but that's just the way it is. |
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Aug 18, 2012 6:42:50 GMT -5
No question Sonny could write a hit. And yes some of his lead vocals do grace number 1 hits. But whether Cher ended up with Phil (God no) or pursued a solo career she was talented. I agree Cher was talented. I also think Yoko was talented, albeit not in the conventional way (and therein lies a big part of the problem with people not giving her her due). Are you sure? I would have bet that if there had never been a Sonny Bono until he became the guy that Cher the Star married and he went into music and songwriting AFTER Cher gave him his start, that the same people would be treating him like Yoko or Tom Arnold and saying "that guy can't sing, he's not talented, he only got some successes due to his involvement with Cher..." etc.. You're probably correct, but who knows? As I keep saying, people get "discovered" every day, in every place. There could be an average bloke singing in the shower right now who could be the next greatest opera singer. What I'm asking is, what does it matter WHO gets them started, or HOW they get their breaks? That does not immediately and in and of itself diminish their credibility as an artist, is what I'm saying. George Harrison only began writing songs because John and Paul were writing. |
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Post by mikev on Aug 18, 2012 6:48:58 GMT -5
No question Sonny could write a hit. And yes some of his lead vocals do grace number 1 hits. But whether Cher ended up with Phil (God no) or pursued a solo career she was talented. I agree Cher was talented. I also think Yoko was talented, albeit not in the conventional way (and therein lies a big part of the problem with people not giving her her due). Are you sure? I would have bet that if there had never been a Sonny Bono until he became the guy that Cher the Star married and he went into music and songwriting AFTER Cher gave him his start, that the same people would be treating him like Yoko or Tom Arnold and saying "that guy can't sing, he's not talented, he only got some successes due to his involvement with Cher..." etc.. You're probably correct, but who knows? As I keep saying, people get "discovered" every day, in every place. There could be an average bloke singing in the shower right now who could be the next greatest opera singer. What I'm asking is, what does it matter WHO gets them started, or HOW they get their breaks? That does not immediately and in and of itself diminish their credibility as an artist, is what I'm saying. George Harrison only began writing songs because John and Paul were writing. nobody knows-it's just banter and speculation. But yes, anyone can get discovered in many different ways (Daughtery, the Monkees, Harry Nilsson), and there are some with immense talent that NEVER get discovered. The ones that get there and stay there have it, and there are your one hit wonders, flashes in the pans and 15 minute people who crash and burn for various reasons. |
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Post by sayne on Aug 18, 2012 8:17:44 GMT -5
. . . You're probably correct, but who knows? As I keep saying, people get "discovered" every day, in every place. There could be an average bloke singing in the shower right now who could be the next greatest opera singer. You should see the new Woody Allen movie, To Rome With Love. There is a story line in it that addresses this exactly. |
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Aug 18, 2012 16:44:45 GMT -5
. . . You're probably correct, but who knows? As I keep saying, people get "discovered" every day, in every place. There could be an average bloke singing in the shower right now who could be the next greatest opera singer. You should see the new Woody Allen movie, To Rome With Love. There is a story line in it that addresses this exactly. I know --- I saw the movie and was thinking of that scenario when I wrote that. ;D (I'm also a Woody Allen Fan). Incidentally, Woody's original title for that film was going to be NERO FIDDLES, but they went with a title closer to his last hit, MIDNIGHT IN PARIS. Woody was not pleased with the change and I can't blame him. |
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