lowbasso
A Hard Day's Knight
Posts: 2,776
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Post by lowbasso on Aug 12, 2012 21:29:58 GMT -5
The following is courtesy of Tammy's Beatle Photo Blog:
THE TOUR THAT NEVER WAS: August 10th, 2012
Roadie Henry Smith Talks About The John Lennon Tour That Might Have Been.
By Marc Shapiro
Henry Smith was in Auckland, New Zealand on December 8, 1980, serving as road manager for Roberta Flack on her latest European tour and, of equal importance, mentally preparing himself for what was coming when the Flack tour ended. His preparations for that night's show were interrupted by a phone call.
It was Roberta, recalls Smith during a recent conversation with Rock Cellar Magazine. She told me that John Lennon had just been killed.
Smith, who has worked for the likes of Led Zeppelin, The Yardbirds and Aerosmith over the years as both a roadie and road manager, relates that the immediate response to the call was both sadness and concern.
The people at The Dakota (where Lennon was living at the time) had called Roberta. They didn't know if John's murder had been a part of a conspiracy or what and, since she had lived at The Dakota, they wanted to make sure that Roberta was going to be alright.
Smith's reaction to the news was two-fold. Like everyone else, there was unparalleled sadness. But, unlike others, there was also an element of self interest at the news.
I stood a chance of making some good money with John on that tour, he admits of Lennon's long anticipated One World, One People tour set for May 1981 in which he would serve as both road manager and de facto booking agent. I could have become a very wealthy man.
Smith was introduced to John Lennon late in 1980 by producer Jack Douglas, who produced the album Double Fantasy. It was shortly after the completion of the album and Lennon, for the first time in a long time, was getting ready to tour.
The official announcement that Lennon would undertake a U.S. and Europe tour was made on October 8, 1980. The musicians who had worked with him on Double Fantasy were in active rehearsal for the concert tour that Lennon hoped would hit the road in seven months.
At the point when Smith was contacted, Lennon was looking for a road manager and crew support. Smith laughs at the memory of how nervous he was at that first meeting with Lennon at the famed Record Plant in New York City.
I mean this was John Lennon! I was so nervous that I was pinching my leg so hard when I was talking to him that I had black and blue marks. I didn't want to sit there, just smiling and laughing at him.
Smith found Lennon to be extremely down to earth when discussing his upcoming tour.
He said he knew nothing about sound and lights because Brian Epstein had always taken care of those things for him. He joked that I know how to turn on the lights with a light switch and I can turn the sound up and down on a radio. And that was basically all he knew!
So it was agreed that Smith would be road manager for the Lennon tour and pull together a core group of technicians that included long time crew mates Dick Hansen and John Conk from the famed Brittania Row sound and lighting company. However as the conversations with Lennon continued, Smith managed to get the legendary musicians attention in another area.
John told me that he was in the process of getting Bill Graham to promote the tour as well as a booking agent. I told him, You don't need all that! You're John Lennon! To prove my point, I called up a booking agent I knew in Texas called Lewis Messina and told him. I said if I can give you ten John Lennon dates, would you take them? The guy just laughed. I told him I'm serious. When he realized I wasn't pulling his leg, he said of course I would.
John understood what I was telling him, he continues. He understood that there was no need to give up a huge chunk of his money that really wasn't going to do anymore for him than my just calling up people I knew and asking if they were interested in John Lennon shows. So John agreed that I would promote the tour for five percent of the gross and save him forty percent of the money he would have had to pay Graham and a booking agent.
Smith next turned his attention to the particulars of the stage setting for Lennon's return to live performances. Everybody was in agreement that Lennon's shows had to be nothing short of spectacular. Smith, in discussion with long time sound man Dick Hansen, envisioned a stage in which none of the instruments would be visible. But Smith recalls that video was ultimately an approach to the live Lennon experience that would have been groundbreaking.
Playing with video would have been totally new in 1980. We immediately thought of Mark Fisher (a British based architect who had forged a second career creating the stage magic for such super groups as Pink Floyd, The Rolling Stones and U2). I called him in the afternoon, he got on a plane that night and flew to New York. By the time he got there, he already had a few ideas penciled out and we gave him a few of our ideas.
Ideas, explained Smith, that would cement Lennon's attitude of being up close and personal with his audience.
What we were going to do was take John and Yoko to each city on the tour a day before the show and film them just walking around the streets and famous points of interest and finally walking into the show. We would set up five video screens at five different points on the stage. When the people would walk in for the actual show, they would see John and Yoko on the screens, walking through their city and into the show. We also had the idea of filming the actual audience as they were walking into the show. There would be a time delay of about 20 minutes and the people already in the arena would see themselves walking into the arena. For the time, it would have been pretty trippy.
Smith was under the impression that the set would consist of primarily songs off of Double Fantasy and was not sure as to whether Lennon would perform any Beatles or Lennon solo material. Rumors would abound on just what Lennon would play. Lennon was quick to stir the pot by indicating the tour set would include some reworked early Beatles songs, some Lennon solo songs and some 50's rock and roll to go along with the Double Fantasy selections. But he did indicate that a novel way of presenting the songs had been set up.
A lot of what was going to happen during the show was John and Yoko on stage, drawing pictures of what the songs meant to them. So, as a song was going to be played, the audience would see a stick figure that John drew, representing what the song meant to him. It definitely would have been different and very personal.
Sadly, all the ideas and predictions of Lennon's triumphant return to the stage were wiped out.
Thousands of miles away, Smith remembers how his small group of performers and crew honored the life and untimely death of John Lennon.
Roberta wanted to sing a song at that night's show that would bring closure to what happened to John and what he meant to the world. So she had us go out and buy a copy of the Imagine album, she learned the song and sang Imagine that night. What can I say? It was very emotional and very sad.
Marc Shapiro's comic-book biography on the life of John Lennon, Orbit: John Lennon will be published by Bluwater Comics on December 27. Pre orders are available through Amazon.com.
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Post by John S. Damm on Aug 12, 2012 22:10:40 GMT -5
I saw that Friday. How fascinating. This is more detail than I've ever read on John's 1981 Tour!
It is claimed that there was an official announcement of the tour on October 8, 1980 but I note that Keith Badman has nothing on that date in his otherwise thorough The Beatles Diary Volume 2: After The Break-Up 1970-2001.
However, on John's 40th birthday, October 9, 1980, it is written by Badman:
"...the Lennon's assistant, Fred Seaman, announces to the press that 'next Spring, John and Yoko will be touring Japan, USA and Europe.'"
I clearly remember the talk about a 1981 Tour and I was bound to go no matter what but there weren't dates or anything. This article is pretty cool. It would have been a cool concept.
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Post by coachbk on Aug 13, 2012 17:31:59 GMT -5
It is nice to be reminded of that short, but very exciting period when John made his comeback. With all that came later, I sometimes can forget how excited I was when I first heard "(Just Like) Starting Over" on a static filled AM station on my car radio. I got DOUBLE FANTASY on the day it came out and it was one of those albums I played over and over again and again. John was all over the place with interviews. I remember writing a letter of complaint when the local paper gave DOUBLE FANTASY a negative review (cleverly titled "John's Back, But Oh No Look Who's With Him). I remember complaining that he was slamming this album for the same misguided reasons that critics slammed RAM nearly a decade earlier. The critic complained it was about home, family and love. I said those were positive things and I thought it was John's best album since IMAGINE. Then there came the talk of a tour. I was very excited. I was in my first year of teaching and coaching, but I was determined that I would somehow get to a show and hoping he'd come to Boston. Then I got an early morning call from my girlfriend (now my wife) and the excitement was replaced by tears. Still at least we did get DOUBLE FANTASY and a short period of as close to "Beatlemania" excitement as I ever experienced!
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Post by Panther on Aug 14, 2012 8:54:46 GMT -5
Tantalizing as it is to imagine John on tour in 1981, I personally doubt it would have happened. John, as we all know, was prone to "here-today, gone-tomorrow" ideas all his life, and the 7 months between the talk of the possible tour and the actual start of the tour would have been more than enough time to kill the tour.
Why wouldn't he have toured? I don't think the album would have been successful enough to please him. John was hyper-sensitive to sales and how his albums were perceived by the public at large, and no doubt in the back of his mind he was competing with Paul/Wings. The Lennon Double Fantasy songs -- great as they are -- don't really lend themselves to live concerts, I think.
Let's recall the 'Concert for World Peace year 1" or whatever it was that John and Yoko had planned for 1970 -- they flew around Europe to talk about it, Rolling Stone reported it was happening... and then nothing.
Then, let's recall the 1972 tour plans. John was going to tour with the "John & Yoko Elephant's Memory Plastic Ono Fun Band" or whatever, and talked it up to the press... and nothing. He was put off by the commercial failure of Some Time in New York City, amongst other things.
Anyway, I personally doubt John would have toured in '81, but I think eventually he would have. Probably after the 1988 Beatle thaw-out in money and intra-member relations, and when the 'alternative rock' culture was coming into prominence. John would have done some tour and an 'Unplugged' or something, as well as appearing at the Viper Room.
Just my opinion.
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Post by John S. Damm on Aug 14, 2012 11:29:03 GMT -5
And you are probably right, Panther. Until John was on that stage actually playing music live we will never know. Your 1972 example is a very compelling one and the closest analogy we have.
It is like those fans who are convinced that The Beatles, all four, would have played Live Aid had John been alive. No one knows because John was murdered years before Live Aid was even a good thought let alone carried out.
Even Yoko can only speculate on what John would have done in 1985 although her guess would be more educated than ours I suppose.
The only certain thing is that the events of December 8, 1980, made a 1981 tour impossible.
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lowbasso
A Hard Day's Knight
Posts: 2,776
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Post by lowbasso on Aug 14, 2012 20:21:55 GMT -5
Tantalizing as it is to imagine John on tour in 1981, I personally doubt it would have happened. John, as we all know, was prone to "here-today, gone-tomorrow" ideas all his life, and the 7 months between the talk of the possible tour and the actual start of the tour would have been more than enough time to kill the tour. Why wouldn't he have toured? I don't think the album would have been successful enough to please him. John was hyper-sensitive to sales and how his albums were perceived by the public at large, and no doubt in the back of his mind he was competing with Paul/Wings. The Lennon Double Fantasy songs -- great as they are -- don't really lend themselves to live concerts, I think. Let's recall the 'Concert for World Peace year 1" or whatever it was that John and Yoko had planned for 1970 -- they flew around Europe to talk about it, Rolling Stone reported it was happening... and then nothing. Then, let's recall the 1972 tour plans. John was going to tour with the "John & Yoko Elephant's Memory Plastic Ono Fun Band" or whatever, and talked it up to the press... and nothing. He was put off by the commercial failure of Some Time in New York City, amongst other things. Anyway, I personally doubt John would have toured in '81, but I think eventually he would have. Probably after the 1988 Beatle thaw-out in money and intra-member relations, and when the 'alternative rock' culture was coming into prominence. John would have done some tour and an 'Unplugged' or something, as well as appearing at the Viper Room. Just my opinion. Interesting opinion. I would suggest John was in a completely different and more secure frame of mind in 1980 than he was in the early 70's. He had kicked his heavy drug use by then which in the late 60's and early 70's had led to bouts of paranoia and insecurity on his part. He now had a secure family life that gave him a frame of mind to feel secure about his music abilities once more, like it had been in the early Beatle days. His writing skills came much easier to him in 1980; ie. he was enjoying writing new material once more, songs came easier to him, and he enjoyed getting into the studio to record. This may well have helped carry over into a security to get onstage and tour once again with a band he was in control of and most importantly, Yoko approved of. Throw all those developments into the mix and I would venture to say there was a very good likelyhood John would have been ready to go out on the road in 1981. I would even venture to say he wanted to challenge Paul and his band Wings to see if he could match or even top his old bandmate on the road once more. Whether the tour would have met all his expectations is another subject to conjecture in another thread. Just my opinion.
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Post by sayne on Aug 14, 2012 20:23:38 GMT -5
"Exciting" is certainly a word to use. Back in the day, there used to be ads in the paper from ticket brokers advertising up coming shows. One could put down a deposit which would guarantee a ticket (yes, I know issues concerning brokers). Nevertheless, it was sooooooo cool AND exciting to see, along with names like Jethro Tull, Yes, Allman Brothers, Blue Oyster Cult, ZZ Top, Led Zeppelin, Leon Russell, JOHN frickin' LENNON in letters bigger than everyone else. I wish I had cut out the ad for a scrapbook, but who was to know what would soon happen.
Anyway, I don't know if any of you youngsters can understand the thrill of seeing those ads, but is was quite a sight to me.
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Post by mikev on Aug 14, 2012 21:01:10 GMT -5
Tantalizing as it is to imagine John on tour in 1981, I personally doubt it would have happened. John, as we all know, was prone to "here-today, gone-tomorrow" ideas all his life, and the 7 months between the talk of the possible tour and the actual start of the tour would have been more than enough time to kill the tour. Why wouldn't he have toured? I don't think the album would have been successful enough to please him. John was hyper-sensitive to sales and how his albums were perceived by the public at large, and no doubt in the back of his mind he was competing with Paul/Wings. The Lennon Double Fantasy songs -- great as they are -- don't really lend themselves to live concerts, I think. Let's recall the 'Concert for World Peace year 1" or whatever it was that John and Yoko had planned for 1970 -- they flew around Europe to talk about it, Rolling Stone reported it was happening... and then nothing. Then, let's recall the 1972 tour plans. John was going to tour with the "John & Yoko Elephant's Memory Plastic Ono Fun Band" or whatever, and talked it up to the press... and nothing. He was put off by the commercial failure of Some Time in New York City, amongst other things. Anyway, I personally doubt John would have toured in '81, but I think eventually he would have. Probably after the 1988 Beatle thaw-out in money and intra-member relations, and when the 'alternative rock' culture was coming into prominence. John would have done some tour and an 'Unplugged' or something, as well as appearing at the Viper Room. Just my opinion. Interesting opinion. I would suggest John was in a completely different and more secure frame of mind in 1980 than he was in the early 70's. He had kicked his heavy drug use by then which in the late 60's and early 70's had led to bouts of paranoia and insecurity on his part. He now had a secure family life that gave him a frame of mind to feel secure about his music abilities once more, like it had been in the early Beatle days. His writing skills came much easier to him in 1980; ie. he was enjoying writing new material once more, songs came easier to him, and he enjoyed getting into the studio to record. This may well have helped carry over into a security to get onstage and tour once again with a band he was in control of and most importantly, Yoko approved of. Throw all those developments into the mix and I would venture to say there was a very good likelyhood John would have been ready to go out on the road in 1981. I would even venture to say he wanted to challenge Paul and his band Wings to see if he could match or even top his old bandmate on the road once more. Whether the tour would have met all his expectations is another subject to conjecture in another thread. Just my opinion. I agree this tour would have at least started, but I do wonder how polite crowds would have been to see John alternate songs with Yoko all night long. I'm not trying to slam Yoko here- just being realistic. Imagine Linda singing every other Wings song on tour. Uh uh.
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Post by RockoRoll on Aug 15, 2012 2:09:47 GMT -5
Years ago on this board, I had started a similar thread on John tour in 1981....Document or article?, it even included a setlist..... He had Beatle songs in the list, these included eg. I Want To Hold Your Hand Help! I am a Walrus....etc I'II have to search for it again...........
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Aug 15, 2012 6:01:03 GMT -5
I agree this tour would have at least started, but I do wonder how polite crowds would have been to see John alternate songs with Yoko all night long. I'm not trying to slam Yoko here- just being realistic. Imagine Linda singing every other Wings song on tour. Uh uh. The answer's simple: then don't go. From the get-go with DOUBLE FANTASY it was under John's terms: "we are here as a couple". Those who were not willing to accept those terms did not have to attend any of the concerts. I tend to think most of the audiences would have been polite to Yoko during the shows for John's sake, even if they didn't want her there.
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Post by mikev on Aug 15, 2012 6:55:18 GMT -5
I agree this tour would have at least started, but I do wonder how polite crowds would have been to see John alternate songs with Yoko all night long. I'm not trying to slam Yoko here- just being realistic. Imagine Linda singing every other Wings song on tour. Uh uh. The answer's simple: then don't go. From the get-go with DOUBLE FANTASY it was under John's terms: "we are here as a couple". Those who were not willing to accept those terms did not have to attend any of the concerts. I tend to think most of the audiences would have been polite to Yoko during the shows for John's sake, even if they didn't want her there. Again- my point wasn't to bash her...it would have been similar to George letting Ravi open for him and Paul trying out new 80s and 90s tunes to his audiences. Polite applause and people going to the snack bar. The reality is that she was not John Lennon, people of course would have still bought tickets, but how long would John have tolerated the polite applause for Yoko, that would have likely got less and less as the night went on? We can all say Yoko invented the B52s, but the truth is she did not pay her dues any more than Linda did. Some of her songs aren't that bad, but half a concert in front of 100,000 fans? Personally, I of course I would have tolerated every other song being by Yoko just for the chance to see John Lennon on stage, just as I didn't get up to move the needle on the LP every other song.
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Post by mikev on Aug 15, 2012 6:58:37 GMT -5
Years ago on this board, I had started a similar thread on John tour in 1981....Document or article?, it even included a setlist..... He had Beatle songs in the list, these included eg. I Want To Hold Your Hand Help! I am a Walrus....etc I'II have to search for it again........... I recall both of those songs being mentioned, and Jack Douglas said he even recorded some live demos. Talk about your Holy Grails (along with the supposed original "Street of Dreams").
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Post by Panther on Aug 15, 2012 9:49:14 GMT -5
The answer's simple: then don't go. From the get-go with DOUBLE FANTASY it was under John's terms: "we are here as a couple". Those who were not willing to accept those terms did not have to attend any of the concerts. Joe, your endless obsession with painting everyone on this forum who states basic truths about Yoko's limited appeal to music fans as a "Yoko-basher" is getting tiresome.
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Post by mikev on Aug 15, 2012 11:28:31 GMT -5
Fast forward to the end...and Yoko oversaw this release and had the opportunity to spruce up the reception in the mix... kudos that she didn't (I don't think).
The defense rests.
and I'm sure it wasn't ANY louder after the live "Cook of the House"... um... this one you really have to FF to the end of the song, especially if you are near any cats or fine china ;D
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Aug 15, 2012 11:49:30 GMT -5
The answer's simple: then don't go. From the get-go with DOUBLE FANTASY it was under John's terms: "we are here as a couple". Those who were not willing to accept those terms did not have to attend any of the concerts. Joe, your endless obsession with painting everyone on this forum who states basic truths about Yoko's limited appeal to music fans as a "Yoko-basher" is getting tiresome. Where in this instance did I paint anyone as a "Yoko Basher"...? I said nothing of the kind. I didn't even imply it. On the contrary, I even gave most fans the benefit of the doubt -- I said that I'd bet the fans would have been nice and respectful out of courtesy!Why did you ignore that part of my last post? Oh, that's right - you couldn't then accuse me of painting others as Yoko Bashers. Your routine is the one that's getting tiresome.
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Aug 15, 2012 12:09:35 GMT -5
Again- my point wasn't to bash her... I believe you, Mike, and I never thought it was. I don't know for how long. But it's a moot point anyway as John was murdered and the tour never happened. But I will suggest that not everyone going to the concert would have despised hearing the Yoko songs. Especially if they were as "pop" as the ones on DOUBLE FANTASY and not so avant garde.
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Post by John S. Damm on Aug 15, 2012 12:44:04 GMT -5
Fast forward to the end...and Yoko oversaw this release and had the opportunity to spruce up the reception in the mix... kudos that she didn't (I don't think). The defense rests. and I'm sure it wasn't ANY louder after the live "Cook of the House"... um... this one you really have to FF to the end of the song, especially if you are near any cats or fine china ;D Mike I removed my Paul kissing Heather Mills signature photo. I thought you weren't going to punish me any further? Some thoughts: 1. I was impressed John got the words right on "Born In A Prison" during his parts to sing with Yoko; 2. Yoko's screaming "Let me out" over and over is among the funniest things I have ever seen from a celebrity but Yoko wasn't trying to be funny; 3. Why does Linda McCartney speak with an English accent? 4. Did Linda really believe her pre-song statement, "This one rocks a bit?" We'll never know how a 1981 Lennon/Ono tour would have been received(or if it would have happened at all even if John was never scratched) but in the Fall 1980 I just decided come hell or highwater I was going to be at the Chicago concert if there was one there.
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Post by mikev on Aug 15, 2012 15:48:03 GMT -5
[youtube] Mike I removed my Paul kissing Heather Mills signature photo. I thought you weren't going to punish me any further? Some thoughts: 1. I was impressed John got the words right on "Born In A Prison" during his parts to sing with Yoko; 2. Yoko's screaming "Let me out" over and over is among the funniest things I have ever seen from a celebrity but Yoko wasn't trying to be funny; 3. Why does Linda McCartney speak with an English accent? 4. Did Linda really believe her pre-song statement, "This one rocks a bit?" We'll never know how a 1981 Lennon/Ono tour would have been received(or if it would have happened at all even if John was never scratched) but in the Fall 1980 I just decided come hell or highwater I was going to be at the Chicago concert if there was one there. JSD- before you put up another photo of Heathen in retaliation- I did warn you to FF. I was only trying to show the "polite" reactions. Go back only if you dare... By the fall of 1980 I was a classic rock veteran (okay only Yes, Beatlemania tour, Head East and the Who), and I was determined that I would see John, especially since the 1980 USA Wings tour also never materialized. I think we all knew that meant 50% Yoko.
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Post by mikev on Aug 15, 2012 15:55:35 GMT -5
Again- my point wasn't to bash her... I believe you, Mike, and I never thought it was. I don't know for how long. But it's a moot point anyway as John was murdered and the tour never happened. But I will suggest that not everyone going to the concert would have despised hearing the Yoko songs. Especially if they were as "pop" as the ones on DOUBLE FANTASY and not so avant garde. I don't think she would have been despised by fans, but my point is that "silent" cheering/clapping might have set John off, shortening the tour. I quite like Walking on Thin Ice and consider it essential Lennon- nice new wave guitar work and not a terrible song at all. Some of the other songs are fine too. Yes all speculation. But the Olympic closing gave us a glimpse of what could have been and that is by someone now gone 32 years
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Post by John S. Damm on Aug 15, 2012 22:43:13 GMT -5
Mike reminds us that there was supposed to be a 1980 Wings Tour of the U.S.A. That was clearly being played up by Chicago DJ's but back in the Summer of 1979 upon release of Back To The Egg. I kept hearing on the radio that Paul was coming.
Imagine a 1980 Wings tour with a 1981 John and Yoko Tour! That would have been amazing!
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lowbasso
A Hard Day's Knight
Posts: 2,776
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Post by lowbasso on Aug 15, 2012 23:16:12 GMT -5
I'll probably get accused of bashing Yoko but;
How many people out there do the following (and be honest); when you listen to Double Fantasy, do you just listen to John's tracks, and skip over Yoko's? I have to admit I have done that ever since the album came out. (I listened to Yoko's tracks once in the Fall of 1980, and decided I didn't like them) On my ipod now I just have John's tracks loaded, both the released version and the Stripped Down version.
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Aug 16, 2012 5:27:04 GMT -5
I'll probably get accused of bashing Yoko but; How many people out there do the following (and be honest); when you listen to Double Fantasy, do you just listen to John's tracks, and skip over Yoko's? I have to admit I have done that ever since the album came out. (I listened to Yoko's tracks once in the Fall of 1980, and decided I didn't like them) On my ipod now I just have John's tracks loaded, both the released version and the Stripped Down version. How would it be "Yoko Bashing" just because you didn't care for her songs off DOUBLE FANTASY? I don't think it is. But there have been times where Solo Beatles albums first came out and I didn't immediately like them. It happened with a lot of Paul McCartney albums actually; they took time to grow on me (including the great TUG OF WAR album if you can believe that). If I'd only played them once and gave up I never would have come to enjoy them. Truth be told, I didn't exactly love John's songs off DF back in the day and thought he was disappointing while Yoko was a surprise improvement. I'm positive that lots of fans decide to skip over Yoko's DF songs, however I am a big supporter of the idea of the theme of an album. In the case of DF, the idea was a wordplay and dialogue between a married couple. So I play the whole thing straight through.
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Post by John S. Damm on Aug 16, 2012 9:06:04 GMT -5
I have in the past four years written passionately in defense of the Double Fantasy concept of a dialog between a very passionate but likewise emotionally fraught married couple.
lowbasso, I hear you because I was like that for almost 30 years in that on first blank cassette tapes then blank c.d.s I'd make the Single Fantasy comps many of us did and still do on their i-pods. I liked some of Yoko's songs but wished that they had done separate albums like in the old days.
But when one lets the DF concept sink in, all the songs become stronger. That was a happy realization for me, to realize what John and Yoko were doing and intending!
The problem with John was he was not always as tough on Yoko as he was on Paul. Just the thought of John's reaction let alone John's participation in songwriting kept Paul on his toes during the Beatles years.
I think John pushed Yoko hard on the DF sessions and pushed the musicians hard that were backing them but John clearly didn't always have that B.S. deterrent effect on Yoko like he mostly did with Paul. I just watch Yoko screaming the "Let me out!" in the live "Born In A Prison" to see that.
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lowbasso
A Hard Day's Knight
Posts: 2,776
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Post by lowbasso on Aug 16, 2012 22:17:57 GMT -5
I have in the past four years written passionately in defense of the Double Fantasy concept of a dialog between a very passionate but likewise emotionally fraught married couple. lowbasso, I hear you because I was like that for almost 30 years in that on first blank cassette tapes then blank c.d.s I'd make the Single Fantasy comps many of us did and still do on their i-pods. I liked some of Yoko's songs but wished that they had done separate albums like in the old days. But when one lets the DF concept sink in, all the songs become stronger. That was a happy realization for me, to realize what John and Yoko were doing and intending! The problem with John was he was not always as tough on Yoko as he was on Paul. Just the thought of John's reaction let alone John's participation in songwriting kept Paul on his toes during the Beatles years. I think John pushed Yoko hard on the DF sessions and pushed the musicians hard that were backing them but John clearly didn't always have that B.S. deterrent effect on Yoko like he mostly did with Paul. I just watch Yoko screaming the "Let me out!" in the live "Born In A Prison" to see that. But comparing Paul and Yoko as songwriters isn't fair. Paul has a true gift for songwriting that unfortunately I don't see (or hear) in anything Yoko has written. How much music did Yoko write before hooking up with John? How commercial was her music? How well does her music sell on its own since John's passing? She is just not anywhere near a level Paul was/is at. There is nothing much John could have done to make her writing "better". It is what it is, and clearly from someone whose first love was never anything to do with music but more towards avant garde art. If Yoko had never met John, do you think she ever would have gone into writing and recording music? If Paul had never met John, music was still and always would have been his passion in life.
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Post by John S. Damm on Aug 16, 2012 22:39:57 GMT -5
I think Yoko would never have gotten into Pop Music without John.
Still, John and Yoko have a fascinating musical dialog on DF and to me that makes DF one of the better Beatles "solo" albums.
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Aug 17, 2012 6:07:05 GMT -5
But comparing Paul and Yoko as songwriters isn't fair. Paul has a true gift for songwriting that unfortunately I don't see (or hear) in anything Yoko has written. How much music did Yoko write before hooking up with John? How commercial was her music? How well does her music sell on its own since John's passing? She is just not anywhere near a level Paul was/is at. I will never attempt to claim that Yoko is a great songwriter, and she's certainly nowhere within Paul's league. However, I will go out on a limb and say that she DOES have some melodic songs, that is if you listen to all her work over the years. Furthermore, Yoko has some terrific LYRICS. As a matter of fact, John's greatest and most enduring signature song, IMAGINE, was inspired by Yoko's words from her own book "GRAPEFRUIT" (in one of John's last interviews he says he should have given her co-author credit). I might argue that Yoko was sometimes capable of better and more meaningful WORDS than Paul was, even. Of course Yoko would never have gotten into pop music without John Lennon. Just like Cher would never have gotten into music without Sonny Bono. Just like scores of other people got their "in" through others, be it music, movies, or whatever else. Elvis was just a truck driver who stopped in one day to record a song for his mom. I believe Bruce Willis was a bartender who got lucky. What does it matter how or through whom someone gets their opportunity? (Pssssttt.... now it's getting to "Yoko Bashing" . But of course, we knew that was bubbling below the surface all along )
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Post by mikev on Aug 17, 2012 7:34:20 GMT -5
But comparing Paul and Yoko as songwriters isn't fair. Paul has a true gift for songwriting that unfortunately I don't see (or hear) in anything Yoko has written. How much music did Yoko write before hooking up with John? How commercial was her music? How well does her music sell on its own since John's passing? She is just not anywhere near a level Paul was/is at. I will never attempt to claim that Yoko is a great songwriter, and she's certainly nowhere within Paul's league. However, I will go out on a limb and say that she DOES have some melodic songs, that is if you listen to all her work over the years. Furthermore, Yoko has some terrific LYRICS. As a matter of fact, John's greatest and most enduring signature song, IMAGINE, was inspired by Yoko's words from her own book "GRAPEFRUIT" (in one of John's last interviews he says he should have given her co-author credit). I might argue that Yoko was sometimes capable of better and more meaningful WORDS than Paul was, even. Of course Yoko would never have gotten into pop music without John Lennon. Just like Cher would never have gotten into music without Sonny Bono. Just like scores of other people got their "in" through others, be it music, movies, or whatever else. Elvis was just a truck driver who stopped in one day to record a song for his mom. I believe Bruce Willis was a bartender who got lucky. What does it matter how or through whom someone gets their opportunity? (Pssssttt.... now it's getting to "Yoko Bashing" . But of course, we knew that was bubbling below the surface all along ) Cher is a bad example because she can actually sing (and much better than Sonny).
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Post by John S. Damm on Aug 17, 2012 7:57:08 GMT -5
I will never attempt to claim that Yoko is a great songwriter, and she's certainly nowhere within Paul's league. However, I will go out on a limb and say that she DOES have some melodic songs, that is if you listen to all her work over the years. Furthermore, Yoko has some terrific LYRICS. As a matter of fact, John's greatest and most enduring signature song, IMAGINE, was inspired by Yoko's words from her own book "GRAPEFRUIT" (in one of John's last interviews he says he should have given her co-author credit). I might argue that Yoko was sometimes capable of better and more meaningful WORDS than Paul was, even. Of course Yoko would never have gotten into pop music without John Lennon. Just like Cher would never have gotten into music without Sonny Bono. Just like scores of other people got their "in" through others, be it music, movies, or whatever else. Elvis was just a truck driver who stopped in one day to record a song for his mom. I believe Bruce Willis was a bartender who got lucky. What does it matter how or through whom someone gets their opportunity? (Pssssttt.... now it's getting to "Yoko Bashing" . But of course, we knew that was bubbling below the surface all along ) Cher is a bad example because she can actually sing (and much better than Sonny). Speaking of Cher, Mike you are our expert on 1970's popular culture. Didn't Sonny & Cher and Donny and Marie Osmond team up for a scorching Macca cover?
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Post by mikev on Aug 17, 2012 8:24:32 GMT -5
Cher is a bad example because she can actually sing (and much better than Sonny). Speaking of Cher, Mike you are our expert on 1970's popular culture. Didn't Sonny & Cher and Donny and Marie Osmond team up for a scorching Macca cover? Not sure if that is a complement...yes I posted it already (July 11-Quartet from Hell)- not something we need to see again...ever.
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Post by Panther on Aug 17, 2012 9:16:42 GMT -5
As a matter of fact, John's greatest and most enduring signature song, IMAGINE, was inspired by Yoko's words from her own book "GRAPEFRUIT It's a stretch, to put it mildly, to suggest that Yoko had songwriting talent. 'Norwegian Wood' was inspired by some woman (Maureen Cleave?). Should we now give that woman songwriting credit? Yoko's writing, "Imagine the clouds dripping", etc. does not equate having songwriting talent (no matter what Lennon said in one of his I'll-defend-Yoko moments with the press). No doubt Yoko inspired John in numerous ways and had an artist's conceptual vision of life (including pop music). Her stamp is all over his songs post-1968, and she was apparently a decent piano player with years of training. But she was not a noticeably talented songwriter. And she was a horrible vocalist. Just like Cher would never have gotten into music without Sonny Bono. So, now you're comparing Yoko to one of rock's great female vocalists? While we're at it, why don't we argue that Linda McCartney is just as good as Aretha Franklin, and possibly a better songwriter than Joni Mitchell. Come down to earth, please. (Your claim that Cher wouldn't have gotten into music without Sonny Bono is dubious. And btw, Elvis didn't just wander in off the street by accident one day -- he'd been obsessed with his guitar, music, and making a record for years prior to that.) There is an enormous difference between having musical and songwriting and vocal talent, and being married to a wealthy world-famous musician that allows one's pretensions at playing with pop music to be seen and viewed by a large audience.
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