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Post by mikev on Nov 22, 2013 8:20:07 GMT -5
I have no rebuttal. Beatlemania was an act of God. That was meant to happen. For a myriad of reasons. If any of the atheists on this board want to take issue with me for the aforementioned statement I'm more than willing to argue about it. I wouldn't if I were you because you've then got to explain ever other act of god and some of them don't make any sense. Take, for example, the violent murder of a 40 year old man leaving a 5 year old innocent child without a father. The murderer now believes in the resurrection of Christ so he has a place in heaven. The murdered man on the other hand questioned this belief and even though he urged people to be peaceful, loving and non-violent he now resides in hell. Rest assured-John Lennon did not go into hell if you are a believer (though I think you are being facetious). When you have over a billion people praying for your soul- if there is a higher energy- he likely ended up just fine.
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andyb
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Post by andyb on Nov 22, 2013 12:25:06 GMT -5
I wouldn't if I were you because you've then got to explain ever other act of god and some of them don't make any sense. Take, for example, the violent murder of a 40 year old man leaving a 5 year old innocent child without a father. The murderer now believes in the resurrection of Christ so he has a place in heaven. The murdered man on the other hand questioned this belief and even though he urged people to be peaceful, loving and non-violent he now resides in hell. Rest assured-John Lennon did not go into hell if you are a believer (though I think you are being facetious). When you have over a billion people praying for your soul- if there is a higher energy- he likely ended up just fine. I don't think I'm trying to be facetious Mike. I just don't think it was a particularly wise to thing to say. Let's stick to discussing the actual historical events we know happened and not trip off into divine manipulation of everything. Not only that, but to then say if you think he's wrong he's willing to take issue or argue with you about it. I'm dumbstruck!
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Post by acebackwords on Nov 22, 2013 13:10:08 GMT -5
Andy: I was just drunk and joking around. I apologize for the confusion.
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andyb
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Post by andyb on Nov 22, 2013 13:40:59 GMT -5
Fair enough, no apology necessary. I was hoping you weren't serious.
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Post by debjorgo on Nov 22, 2013 19:07:42 GMT -5
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Nov 23, 2013 6:04:38 GMT -5
I wouldn't if I were you because you've then got to explain ever other act of god and some of them don't make any sense. Take, for example, the violent murder of a 40 year old man leaving a 5 year old innocent child without a father. The murderer now believes in the resurrection of Christ so he has a place in heaven. The murdered man on the other hand questioned this belief and even though he urged people to be peaceful, loving and non-violent he now resides in hell. I'LL "explain" it. Basically, it's not up to us to "understand God's ways or will" to our own satisfaction. We are not required to have an "explanation" or have everything "make sense" to us mere mortals. We may find out the reasons and answers we seek later on after we leave this Earth. And also importantly -- who says a person getting violently murdered is necessarily "an act of God" ...? This is the trouble with so many atheists... they have this pre-conceived "la la land" notion of what they think God should be and should or should not do, or how euphoric this world should be, if indeed there is to be a God in their view. Everything must be continually rosey and positive, otherwise there is no Creator. (Sorry, but that's Heaven folks; not Earth). God gives man free will, and sometimes intervenes, sometimes not. In the scenario you present above, perhaps the 5-year-old innocent fatherless child will grow to be more self-sufficient or independent as an adult, and perhaps give something to other children. Sometimes hardships make one stronger. Perhaps we've all got some individual job to do, or purpose. Perhaps a poor child who dies a young death is meant to be an example to the living, or has some purpose in the Grand Scheme Of Things that we can't make sense of at our particular level. Maybe we're a part of a plan that won't make sense to us until the next life. Another thing that gets in the way of atheists is that they take the Bible to be 100% "The Word Of God" when criticizing Him. But really, how do we KNOW exactly who wrote the Bible? Who is to say that everything stated inside its pages is "truly" the way it is? (Such as "if you believe in the resurrection of Jesus and accept him, you shall live forever"...?). Did God mandate this for real, or is this just something that someone wrote in the Bible ? (Not that I have anything to worry about because I have lived my life as basically a good person who does accept Jesus Christ as his personal savior ) .
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Nov 23, 2013 6:18:51 GMT -5
I just don't think it was a particularly wise to thing to say. Let's stick to discussing the actual historical events we know happened and not trip off into divine manipulation of everything. I for one am not going to be afraid to think that and say it just because you may not want to hear it (sorry). In the case of The Beatles, I do believe that God had a hand in Beatlemania, and that the Beatles phenomenon was meant to be. It was pure magic, the likes of which we'd never seen before and most likely will never see again. By the way, it is truly amazing to me that there is so much garbage we're free to discuss in this world today, but don't dare mention God! I can agree that being confrontational about it was a bit much -- but he was drunk!
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Nov 23, 2013 6:22:14 GMT -5
Andy: I was just drunk and joking around. I apologize for the confusion. I hope you were being serious about the act of God bit, if not the confrontation.
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Post by debjorgo on Nov 23, 2013 7:04:26 GMT -5
This is the trouble with so many atheists... they have this pre-conceived "la la land" notion of what they think God should be and should or should not do, or how euphoric this world should be, if indeed there is to be a God in their view. Everything must be continually rosey and positive, otherwise there is no Creator. (Sorry, but that's Heaven folks; not Earth). God gives man free will, and sometimes intervenes, sometimes not. In the scenario you present above, perhaps the 5-year-old innocent fatherless child will grow to be more self-sufficient or independent as an adult, and perhaps give something to other children. Sometimes hardships make one stronger. Perhaps we've all got some individual job to do, or purpose. Perhaps a poor child who dies a young death is meant to be an example to the living, or has some purpose in the Grand Scheme Of Things that we can't make sense of at our particular level. Maybe we're a part of a plan that won't make sense to us until the next life. Another thing that gets in the way of atheists is that they take the Bible to be 100% "The Word Of God" when criticizing Him. But really, how do we KNOW exactly who wrote the Bible? Who is to say that everything stated inside its pages is "truly" the way it is? (Such as "if you believe in the resurrection of Jesus and accept him, you shall live forever"...?). Did God mandate this for real, or is this just something that someone wrote in the Bible ? (Not that I have anything to worry about because I have lived my life as basically a good person who does accept Jesus Christ as his personal savior ) . No. Most atheist do not perceive God as anything. They do not believe there is such a thing. They do not take the Bible as anything but the work of man. They are not disillusioned Christians. They just don't believe there is a super being in the sky throwing thunderbolts.
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Nov 23, 2013 7:26:45 GMT -5
No. Most atheist do not perceive God as anything. They do not believe there is such a thing. They do not take the Bible as anything but the work of man. They are not disillusioned Christians. They just don't believe there is a super being in the sky throwing thunderbolts. Why must atheists think that for those of us who know that God exists - to us, we believe He must be "up in the sky" as some "super being throwing thunderbolts"? I don't feel that way about God. This falls right in place with what I'm trying to say ... that atheists are more or less rejecting these "conventions" or "images" . This world did not get here on its own. All that exists... the planets, gravity, humans, animals, nature... each with their own unique ways of functioning and the wonders of the human body (which man cannot duplicate even today) .. the digestive system... the fact that we need food to live and thus eating was made a pleasure... that we need to have children for the race to survive, and thus sexual intercourse is an act of pleasure to insure procreation .... are all things which were designed. (Imagine if we had to FORCE ourselves to eat every day, and imagine if sex was a horrendous thing which no human beings really wanted to do?) . Oh sure, over the centuries "science" has attempted to figure all God's "stuff" out in ways that would satisfy our relatively feeble and limited minds which require every little thing to be spelled out precisely for them to comprehend... but they'll never figure it all out.
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Post by debjorgo on Nov 23, 2013 8:21:58 GMT -5
No. Most atheist do not perceive God as anything. They do not believe there is such a thing. They do not take the Bible as anything but the work of man. They are not disillusioned Christians. They just don't believe there is a super being in the sky throwing thunderbolts. Why must atheists think that for those of us who know that God exists - to us, we believe He must be "up in the sky" as some "super being throwing thunderbolts"? I don't feel that way about God. This falls right in place with what I'm trying to say ... that atheists are more or less rejecting these "conventions" or "images" . This world did not get here on its own. All that exists... the planets, gravity, humans, animals, nature... each with their own unique ways of functioning and the wonders of the human body (which man cannot duplicate even today) .. the digestive system... the fact that we need food to live and thus eating was made a pleasure... that we need to have children for the race to survive, and thus sexual intercourse is an act of pleasure to insure procreation .... are all things which were designed. (Imagine if we had to FORCE ourselves to eat every day, and imagine if sex was a horrendous thing which no human beings really wanted to do?) . Oh sure, over the centuries "science" has attempted to figure all God's "stuff" out in ways that would satisfy our relatively feeble and limited minds which require every little thing to be spelled out precisely for them to comprehend... but they'll never figure it all out. I'm sorry. I was debating Christian church dogma. What is the religion you are speaking of? Though, polls have shown that, like you, most people do not believe the teaching of the church that they belong to. When did the Bible start not being gospel? This new Pope, he is a character. Can you not see how religion may have been started to help children go to sleep during a violent storm?
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Post by debjorgo on Nov 23, 2013 8:25:37 GMT -5
Okay, okay. So God's a Beatles' fan and not a Stones' fan. That's cool, God. But what is this thing you have for Kanye?
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Post by mikev on Nov 23, 2013 11:57:17 GMT -5
Rest assured-John Lennon did not go into hell if you are a believer (though I think you are being facetious). When you have over a billion people praying for your soul- if there is a higher energy- he likely ended up just fine. I don't think I'm trying to be facetious Mike. I just don't think it was a particularly wise to thing to say. Let's stick to discussing the actual historical events we know happened and not trip off into divine manipulation of everything. Not only that, but to then say if you think he's wrong he's willing to take issue or argue with you about it. I'm dumbstruck! Maybe facetious was the wrong wording to use. Anyway, been having a very hard time posting-computer needs a fix. Better off avoiding religious posts as I am neither an athiest or a "religious" guy. Wow-just edited this- I really am having computer problems!
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Post by vectisfabber on Nov 23, 2013 12:47:02 GMT -5
Better off avoiding religious posts as I am neither an athiest or a "religious" guy. Best bit of fence sitting - ever! May I join you on that bit of fence?
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Post by acebackwords on Nov 23, 2013 17:26:40 GMT -5
Andy: I was just drunk and joking around. I apologize for the confusion. I hope you were being serious about the act of God bit, if not the confrontation. This is just my personal outlook and nothing more but yeah, I think EVERYTHING that happens is an act of God. And yeah I was joking about the idea of "arguing" about it (I guess it wasn't a very good joke because some people took my words literally). I find the idea of arguing about God or religion a little absurd. Because who really knows. And everyone has a right to their beliefs. As argumentative as I can be on any number of subjects, religion isn't one of them.
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Nov 23, 2013 17:36:46 GMT -5
I find the idea of arguing about God or religion a little absurd. Because who really knows. And everyone has a right to their beliefs.. True that everyone has a right to their beliefs. Only thing is, when you ask "who really knows?", I would say that when you really feel God in your life, you do know it. that's the beauty of it, and it is something that all those who have it, can attest to.
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Nov 23, 2013 17:38:14 GMT -5
Okay, okay. So God's a Beatles' fan and not a Stones' fan. That's cool, God. But what is this thing you have for Kanye? Unfortunately, God also seems to be a Yankee Fan instead of The Mets.
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Nov 23, 2013 17:47:31 GMT -5
I'm sorry. I was debating Christian church dogma. What is the religion you are speaking of? Though, polls have shown that, like you, most people do not believe the teaching of the church that they belong to. When did the Bible start not being gospel? This new Pope, he is a character. That's just it. I was born and raised Catholic, went to a Catholic school, yadda yadda... but for me as I grew, I just basically believe in The Creator (we'll call him God), and I am not so sure about all the stuff written in 'The Book' . I have my doubts as to what parts are the truth, what's fantasy, or if all of it is fantasy. I do not really adhere to the "church rules", which I feel are mainly man-made. The Pope does not impress me. I think that some people may get hung up on all the "church rules" and "fundamentalist extremists", and maybe confuse this with their view of God, or if they feel there is a God. Don't let too many man-made rituals or rules get in the way, is my feeling. I went to work today concerned that this was going to get too controversial, and I'm happy to find it seems to have gone okay. I apologize if I've stepped on anyone's toes about this, and it is a topic that I suppose should not be here. Let's just say: "There but for the grace of God go you and I, do some good before you say Goodbye!"
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andyb
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Post by andyb on Nov 24, 2013 11:09:23 GMT -5
I'LL "explain" it. Basically, it's not up to us to "understand God's ways or will" to our own satisfaction. We are not required to have an "explanation" or have everything "make sense" to us mere mortals. We may find out the reasons and answers we seek later on after we leave this Earth. Aye. Just as I thought it would end up. If stuff happens that you like then it's an "act of god". If stuff happens that you don't like then it's not an "act of god", or if it is then we'll never know the reason why.
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andyb
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Post by andyb on Nov 24, 2013 11:11:41 GMT -5
And yeah I was joking about the idea of "arguing" about it (I guess it wasn't a very good joke because some people took my words literally). It might be an idea in future, on a board with so little humour, to warn us that you are attempting some.
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Post by sayne on Nov 24, 2013 11:49:36 GMT -5
. .. As argumentative as I can be on any number of subjects, religion isn't one of them. I've posted this before: There are 3 things one should never discuss in mixed company, lest one is ready to put up ones dukes - Religion, politics, and who makes the best pizza.
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Post by sayne on Nov 24, 2013 12:20:58 GMT -5
I'LL "explain" it. Basically, it's not up to us to "understand God's ways or will" to our own satisfaction. We are not required to have an "explanation" or have everything "make sense" to us mere mortals. We may find out the reasons and answers we seek later on after we leave this Earth. Aye. Just as I thought it would end up. If stuff happens that you like then it's an "act of god". If stuff happens that you don't like then it's not an "act of god", or if it is then we'll never know the reason why. If you like these, good. If you're offended, good.
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Post by acebackwords on Nov 24, 2013 15:17:10 GMT -5
Always loved Carlin's line: " If God is so great how come everything He makes dies?"
Andy's right. From now on I'm going to leave attempts at humor to the professionals.
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Post by scousette on Nov 24, 2013 15:49:23 GMT -5
Every day on Facebook I see wisdom attributed to George Carlin. Who knew the guy was so prescient?
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Post by debjorgo on Nov 27, 2013 14:20:18 GMT -5
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Post by glenn1966 on Nov 28, 2013 11:02:48 GMT -5
Always loved Carlin's line: " If God is so great how come everything He makes dies?" Neither George Carlin, nor science, can prove what happens when things "die". According to Christian doctrine, you can choose (free will, which is a gift from God) eternal life through faith (also a gift from God) in the work of Jesus Christ, and not your own works. For me, this is a tremendous relief, and evidence that God is loving and compassionate.
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andyb
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Post by andyb on Nov 28, 2013 12:41:09 GMT -5
eternal life through faith (also a gift from God) in the work of Jesus Christ, and not your own works. So . . . back to my example . . . . !
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Nov 28, 2013 16:31:58 GMT -5
I'LL "explain" it. Basically, it's not up to us to "understand God's ways or will" to our own satisfaction. We are not required to have an "explanation" or have everything "make sense" to us mere mortals. We may find out the reasons and answers we seek later on after we leave this Earth. Aye. Just as I thought it would end up. If stuff happens that you like then it's an "act of god". If stuff happens that you don't like then it's not an "act of god", or if it is then we'll never know the reason why. God is there for you. Just talk to Him .
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Post by debjorgo on Dec 5, 2013 20:22:15 GMT -5
From the 11/06/13 Criminal Minds:
The Joe Mantegna character: "The biggest names would come here. Creedence, The Eagles, Chicago.... It was a marine bar. Caroline... was waiting for Ringo. Beatlemania was no joke. I mean, it would make the women crazy. She'd write them a letter once a week, begging the band to come visit.
Nerdy guy: "Did they ever come?"
Joe character: "Ringo did. After his divorce. But luckily Caroline met me first. But that's how we all became friends".
This may be nostalgia.
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Post by debjorgo on Dec 9, 2013 19:13:48 GMT -5
Hawaii Five-O from Nov 22, (the new show)
McGarrett: "I was nervous too, the first time (he met the president). Dano: "The first time? When'd you meet the president?" McGarrett: "I can't tell you. It's classified." Dano: "Oh, it's classified, huh? Was it during Operation Strawberry Fields?" (Meaning it was a fantasy.) McGarrett: "I've already said too much."
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