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Post by John S. Damm on Jan 13, 2015 13:49:53 GMT -5
Frankly, people who go around policing who is and isn't a true fan, based on their other musical preferences or the abominable sin of preferring Electric Arguments to Imagine, for example, annoy the hell out of me. It's a smug sense of superiority that often permeates judgements like that which really gets on my wick. Even if I don't like Kanye's music (and no, I'm not a big fan) I don't see the need to call an entire genre crap. Surely one can say 'I don't like it' rather than 'it's crap' - it's the difference between legitimate personal taste and a subjective opinion masquerading as fact. As for who has reacted the worst to this Kanye collaboration, the majority seem to be male, middle-aged white Beatles fans. Or young 'classic rock' fans who think they're too cool and above hip hop and other 'young' music. However, online comment sections are nearly always a cesspool of unthinking, judgmental, stereotyping, over the top statements so whatever. Nicole, I have been personally fighting that for years! I am not as fond of BOTR as I am of Paul's first four solo albums and some folks are vicious to me: "Oh JSD, if you do not think BOTR is Paul's greatest post-Beatles work then you are not a real Paul fan!" I think Chaos And Creation In The Backyard blows BOTR out of the water! I took a lot of "in-coming" for that! As to your point on Kanye, I will agree that the uproar that got ugly was largely by, "male, middle-aged, white Beatles fans" but from the online comments I read there were also a lot of female MMH going nuts too! No one disrespects Paul to a female MMH and gets away with it! I hope that furor has died down and we enjoy this new phase of Paul's career, what I'll call his "Hip Hop Phase."
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Post by sayne on Jan 14, 2015 22:40:54 GMT -5
Would you settle for Sane Hatter? Hey, I resemble that remark!
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Post by John S. Damm on Jan 15, 2015 10:52:44 GMT -5
Well, Beatles fans can relax! The new single with Kanye and Paul tanked, it has dropped to #54 and falling!
Kanye is not use to such chart disasters. He's gonna ditch Macca's ass! LOL, Paul's inability to have chart success rubbed off on Kanye and I bet this ends this partnership.
Back to "Hope For The Future." zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
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Post by nicole21290 on Jan 15, 2015 18:40:52 GMT -5
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kc
Beatle Freak
Posts: 1,085
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Post by kc on Jan 15, 2015 20:55:45 GMT -5
Just looking at West's discography and I see that many of his singles did not perform particularly well on the charts, as you say. However, there are seven top 10 hits, including two number ones, credited to him, plus another seven and two as a featured artist. So, he has enjoyed a fair measure of success in this respect. What really surprised me was that so many of West's singles are collaborations, both with him as main artist, or him as featured artist on someone else's song. This seems to be the way that Kanye prefers to work. It has been reported on the net that Kanye and Paul have also recorded a collaboration with Rihanna. I don't know any further details, but given her very impressive recent history for scoring hit singles, maybe that is the song which Paul should be looking to in order to re-establish himself as a singles artist? (If that is his motivation in all this, maybe it's not).
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Post by John S. Damm on Jan 16, 2015 1:29:37 GMT -5
From Billboard, an article that kind of suggests this Kanye/Paul pairing is a "weird genre crossing" novelty thing, not a revolutionary pairing of two innovators: www.billboard.com/articles/6436762/weird-genre-crossing-hitsDamn-it, I knew Paul should have thrown down some profane rhymes and not just got stuck behind an organ!
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Post by Panther on Jan 16, 2015 2:55:07 GMT -5
Paul's best collaboration may have been the one with the Frogs.
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Post by John S. Damm on Jan 16, 2015 10:11:12 GMT -5
Paul's best collaboration may have been the one with the Frogs. The movie theaters ran that frog cartoon before showing the feature film Give My Regards To Broadstreet back in 1984 and sadly that was the highlight of that experience!
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Post by joshferrell on Jan 16, 2015 11:45:13 GMT -5
well it may not have flopped because of Paul, Kanye may have caused it to flop by his strange behavior over the last couple years, he HAS been arrogant and an egomaniac and of course showing himself as Jesus on the cover of his last CD doesn't help any, also having a guy dressed as Jesus coming on stage with him is also an arrogant thing to do, also with South Park Spoofing him and showing his ignorance I'm going to guess that maybe he has burned too many bridges and he has ruined his own career..just a thought..people are thinking that maybe Paul is working with Kanye in order to become "Hip" again, but maybe Paul is working with Kanye to help Kanye's career, maybe help change his image with the older crowd, just something I wanted to throw out there,,
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Post by theman on Jan 18, 2015 8:58:48 GMT -5
I'm guessing that most of you have listed to the "Things We Said Today" podcast before, but this week's episode has a good 'un about the Paul/Kanye collaboration.
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kc
Beatle Freak
Posts: 1,085
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Post by kc on Jan 18, 2015 16:39:49 GMT -5
It's fallen to #64 in the UK.
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Post by Panther on Jan 18, 2015 23:20:06 GMT -5
It's fallen to #64 in the UK. Not surprising. Kanye is so 2008. I mean, he's like, old. He's just not hot enough to make people care about some white bozo like Paul McIntosh or whatever his name is.
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Post by joshferrell on Jan 18, 2015 23:29:42 GMT -5
yea Kanye has burnt too many bridges with his ego.. here's a video of him Comparing himself to Jesus as well as a bunch of Genius' and he actually goes as far as actually saying that he is a genius.
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Post by joshferrell on Jan 18, 2015 23:32:00 GMT -5
Also Kanye has "Jesus" come on stage with him,,,lol...
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Post by Panther on Jan 19, 2015 19:31:41 GMT -5
Let's not forget Kanye interrupting Taylor Swift's win for "Best Video" by hogging the mic and announcing that Beyonce's video was better. Even Obama called him a "jackass".
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Post by sayne on Jan 19, 2015 21:02:19 GMT -5
. . . he actually goes as far as actually saying that he is a genius. You and many others here will recall that although John first started by questioning the concept of genius, he did say that he was one in the Lennon Remembers interview.
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Jan 20, 2015 5:55:18 GMT -5
You and many others here will recall that although John first started by questioning the concept of genius, he did say that he was one in the Lennon Remembers interview. And...? The difference is, John WAS a genius; Kanye West is not. (And anyway, John actually said that IF there is such a thing as genius, then he's one).
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Jan 20, 2015 5:57:03 GMT -5
It's fallen to #64 in the UK. Glad to hear that. This bit of news is more music to my ears than that awful song was.
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Post by sayne on Jan 20, 2015 23:33:24 GMT -5
You and many others here will recall that although John first started by questioning the concept of genius, he did say that he was one in the Lennon Remembers interview. And...? It is unseemly for someone to declare anything superlative about themselves. Even if it is true, one would not laud a woman going around saying "I'm so beautiful," or "I'm so rich." I doubt Stephen Hawking goes around saying how smart he is. We shouldn't give John a pass on this one. You and many others here will recall that although John first started by questioning the concept of genius, he did say that he was one in the Lennon Remembers interview. And...? . . . (And anyway, John actually said that IF there is such a thing as genius, then he's one). I alluded to that when I said ". . . John first started by questioning the concept of genius. . . " Knee-jerk reactions often cause people to disagree with someone when they actually agree.
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Post by vectisfabber on Jan 21, 2015 4:26:11 GMT -5
Neither Lennon nor McCartney were geniuses in my view, but The Beatles were without question a collective genius.
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Jan 21, 2015 6:35:31 GMT -5
It is unseemly for someone to declare anything superlative about themselves. Even if it is true, one would not laud a woman going around saying "I'm so beautiful," or "I'm so rich." I doubt Stephen Hawking goes around saying how smart he is. We shouldn't give John a pass on this one. Ah yes, "unseemly"... PC at it's finest ("you must say and be like THIS; do not ever be like THAT"). Maybe Stephen Hawking ought to go around downplaying himself, as this is so much more "socially acceptable"? But this was just the person that John Lennon was. Yes, I will give John a pass on this one, as John was always the first one to put himself down and admit flaws and frailties, as well.. the man was very human and vulnerable. Multi-faceted and complex. Generally speaking, I think it's sad that we live in a world where there is some sort of stigma attached to giving yourself kudos when applicable; instead, we're supposed to go around acting all humble and modest.. even downplaying ourselves! Did you (or anyone else) ever take John to task for downplaying himself with "I'm A Loser", or crying out for "Help!", telling us how insecure he felt? Or in his countless solo songs where he speaks of his many weaknesses? It's not like John "went around" declaring "I Am A Genius!", "I Am A Genius!!" constantly throughout his life or career; like you give in your extreme examples ... this was only during an intense and gut-searching ROLLING STONE interview, where these types of intimate details emerge. But he knew from childhood that there was something special about him from the other kids, and wondered why no one else would see it (and it turned out his instinct was correct). That's just him being honest with himself, and us. Even if it sounds prettier to fauxly go around saying "Aww shucks, I'm not so much..." . There is nothing at all "knee-jerk" here, and I certainly noted right from first reading that you covered yourself first by giving lip service to the "questioning the concept of genius". Still, you sort of ignored that whole part when you simplified it to just concluding: "He did say he was one" . The crux of this thing anyway is that Kanye West is the one who goes around untastefully declaring outright that he is some kind of Genius or Jesus; and he is neither. (And before anyone tries to use Lennon's "Bigger Than Jesus" mis-quoting, I will remind them that Lennon was deploring that situation, and trying to say that those days religion seemed to be on the wane, and instead other things were more popular with kids.. and he used The Beatles because it was what he could relate most with).
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kc
Beatle Freak
Posts: 1,085
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Post by kc on Jan 22, 2015 6:49:57 GMT -5
Now down to #85 on Billboard. The jig is up.
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Post by bluecake on Jan 23, 2015 21:33:21 GMT -5
Kanye West is a genius; his innovations as both a producer and artist has done as much for hip-hop as the Beatles did for pop/rock.
As a massive Beatles and hip hop fan, it's interesting to see the generational and racial divide the Paul-Kanye collaboration has spotlighted. For example, the talk about Kanye being ignoble in calling himself a genius and comparing himself to Jesus ignores that he both explores it in his art, as well as the cultural history of "hype" in rap and hip hop. The purpose of hype is, in part, to make outsiders uncomfortable. Let's face it - people will excuse a white man like John's assertions of genius and ego-tripping, but it still makes many uncomfortable to hear boasting from a black man.
The dichotomy between hype and the artist's true self is something Kanye explores in his lyrics, where he constantly examines his image vs. his failings and insecurities:
My furs is Mongolian, my ice brought the goalies in, And I embody every characteristic of the egotistic. 'He knows, he’s so fucking gifted,' I just needed time alone with my own thoughts. Got treasures in my mind, but couldn’t open up my own vault. My childlike creativity, purity and honesty, Is honestly being crowded by these grown thoughts. Reality is catching up with me, Taking my inner child, I’m fighting for custody With these responsibilities that they entrusted me...
Lost in translation with a whole fucking nation, They say I was the abomination of Obama’s nation, Well, that’s a pretty bad way to start the conversation.
Or:
I had a dream I could buy my way to heaven, When I awoke, I spent that on a necklace. I told God I'd be back in a second, Man, it's so hard not to act reckless. To whom much is given much is tested, Get arrested, guess until he gets the message.
I feel the pressure, under more scrutiny, and what I do? Act more stupidly. Bought more jewelry, more Louis V, My mama couldn't get through to me. The drama, people suing me, I'm on T.V. talking like it's just you and me...
I guess the money should've changed him...
La, la, la, wait till I get my money (right?) La, la, la, then you can't tell me nothing (right?) Excuse me, was you sayin' something? Uh uh, you can't tell me nothing.
Or:
Never was much of a romantic, I could never take the intimacy. And I know I did damage, 'Cause the look in your eyes is killing me. I guess you've got another advantage, 'Cause you can blame me for everything.
And I don't know how I'm a-manage, If one day you just up and leave. Yeah, I always find something wrong, You've been putting up with my shit just way too long. I'm so gifted at finding what I don't like the most, So I think it's time for us to have a toast.
Or:
On a bathroom wall I wrote, "I'd rather argue with you than to be with someone else." I took a piss and dismissed it, like fuck it, and I went and found somebody else. Fuck arguing or harvesting the feelings, I'd rather be by my fucking self, Till about 2am and I call back, and I hang up and start to blame myself, Somebody help.
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Post by sayne on Jan 24, 2015 2:42:38 GMT -5
But this was just the person that John Lennon was. Yes, I will give John a pass on this one, as John was always the first one to put himself down and admit flaws and frailties, as well.. the man was very human and vulnerable. Multi-faceted and complex. Generally speaking, I think it's sad that we live in a world where there is some sort of stigma attached to giving yourself kudos when applicable; instead, we're supposed to go around acting all humble and modest.. even downplaying ourselves! Did you (or anyone else) ever take John to task for downplaying himself with "I'm A Loser", or crying out for "Help!", telling us how insecure he felt? Or in his countless solo songs where he speaks of his many weaknesses? . . . Basically you're saying that it's okay for John to be this way, but not Kanye. Look, I'm not a Kanye West fan. But, he does question himself and points out his flaws all the time. Not to say that Kanye is as good or equal to John, but all the claims you made about John apply to Kanye, too. If John is to lauded for his declarations, then so should Kanye if he makes the same ones. If Kanye is criticized for those proclamations, then so should John.
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Post by sayne on Jan 24, 2015 2:51:16 GMT -5
Ah yes, "unseemly"... PC at it's finest ("you must say and be like THIS; do not ever be like THAT") . . . There you go again with the scoffing of any criticism of your right to say or do the wrong thing. Well, actually, I take that back. I'm sorry (really), you do have the right, but anytime someone challenges you on a belief you have, you dismiss it as PC at it's worst. That's not fair. Isn't anything unseemly to you? Maybe you should make out with your girlfriend at a funeral. Maybe you should wear a "DW Griffith was right" shirt at a MLK celebration. Or, maybe I'm being PC again.
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Jan 24, 2015 5:40:30 GMT -5
Ah yes, "unseemly"... PC at it's finest ("you must say and be like THIS; do not ever be like THAT") . . . There you go again with the scoffing of any criticism of your right to say or do the wrong thing. Well, actually, I take that back. I'm sorry (really), you do have the right, but anytime someone challenges you on a belief you have, you dismiss it as PC at it's worst. That's not fair. Isn't anything unseemly to you? Maybe you should make out with your girlfriend at a funeral. Maybe you should wear a "DW Griffith was right" shirt at a MLK celebration. Or, maybe I'm being PC again. So here we go again with extremist, outrageous analogies. I hardly think your two over-the-top examples are the same thing as a rock star being interviewed in a revealing interview for a magazine, and questioning the concept of genius and saying if there's such a thing, then he's one. I do feel it's in bad taste to wear a "DW Griffith" shirt at a MLK celebration. Personally, I wouldn't make out with my woman at a funeral... in fact, you have hit the nail on the head zeroing in on one of my sensitivities, because I pretty much find it in bad taste to publically display spit-swapping like that. However, I am able to realize that it's "my" hangup, not theirs. In your first line here you label certain behavior as "the wrong thing", as if it's factual - when in truth it's subjective. So the bottom line is, ANYONE can object to ANYTHING that people do or say, at ANY TIME ... so where do we draw the line? Who gets to determine what's "okay" and "not okay"?
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Jan 24, 2015 5:47:06 GMT -5
Basically you're saying that it's okay for John to be this way, but not Kanye. Look, I'm not a Kanye West fan. But, he does question himself and points out his flaws all the time. Not to say that Kanye is as good or equal to John, but all the claims you made about John apply to Kanye, too. If John is to lauded for his declarations, then so should Kanye if he makes the same ones. If Kanye is criticized for those proclamations, then so should John. In my very first comment on this I opined that the difference is that John WAS a genius, while Kanye is not. Now, this is just my own opinion. Sure, Kanye has the right to think and pronounce to the world whatever he wants (as did John) ... but I can likewise respond that the difference is Kanye is not any kind of genius, while Lennon was. Just like many people thought John was all wet when he said he was some kind of genius. And let's not forget also that Kanye seems to be thrusting this obnoxiously into everyone's faces, while Lennon was involved in an in-depth interview and asked about such things.
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Post by nicole21290 on Jan 24, 2015 8:20:08 GMT -5
To lighten the mood... Thanks for those Kanye lyrics, by the way, bluecake! I'm not as au fait with his catalogue; appreciate that.
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Post by sayne on Jan 24, 2015 10:40:44 GMT -5
So here we go again with extremist, outrageous analogies. . . . . . in truth it's subjective. So the bottom line is, ANYONE can object to ANYTHING that people do or say, at ANY TIME ... so where do we draw the line? Who gets to determine what's "okay" and "not okay"? It is very common to exaggerate to make a point. It's not about comparison, it's about being illustrative. That's not something that warrants a demerit. It's not about ANYONE objecting, it's about a growing group of ANYONES. If one guy in the world stands up and says "I'm not Black. I'm Melaninially Enhanced," good luck with that one. But, if there is a growing chorus of people who do not want to be called something, they should be heard, not diminished. Of course opinions are subjective. The problem is when we encounter an opinion that someone else has and immediately label it negatively. There are many people who are offended by the term "Indian." One can either dismiss them and diminish them by saying they are just being "PC," or one can try to understand where they are coming from historically or personally, and respect them for that. If one is able to empathize with them, then one will cease to use the term. If one cannot "feel their pain," then they will go on using the term. Racist for supporting "Redskins"? Maybe not. Insensitve? Most likely.
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Post by sayne on Jan 24, 2015 10:55:36 GMT -5
. . . John WAS a genius, while Kanye is not. Now, this is just my own opinion . . . That's fine, I won't argue against that. But, as an aside, it's interesting that more men at the top of their game and more non-"people of color" who are at the top of their game are thought of as geniuses than those who are of the "other." Really. I've heard Einstein called a genius, but not Marie Curie. Picasso, but not Georgia O'Keefe. John Lennon, but not James Brown. Fred Astaire, but not Bill Robinson. Just my limited observation.
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