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Post by Panther on Apr 29, 2015 9:08:05 GMT -5
Yeah, I realize I'm about 6 years behind, but today I received my copy of the Mono Albums Box-set.
I prefer Beatles in mono, and in general I prefer most recorded music in mono. It seems pretty clear that The Beatles themselves, and the vast majority of their audience, were thinking in terms of mono almost exclusively.
In fact, I've never owned original copies of several Beatles' albums. So technically, today is the first time I've ever owned a copy of 'With The Beatles', 'A Hard Day's Night', 'Revolver', or 'The White Album'.
Anyway, the set is fabulous and of course sounds great.
I just have one gripe:
I understand why Abbey Road and Let It Be are not included -- they never existed in mono. Fair enough. And the box-set does a very brilliant thing with the (almost) "Past Masters" tracklisting of the 'Mono Masters' album, which is to (a) make it into one album instead of two, and (b) add 'Only a Northern Song', 'All Together Now', 'Hey Bulldog', and 'It's All Too Much'. This latter point saves me having to buy the crappy Yellow Submarine album, which I don't consider a Beatles album anyway. Good job!
But then, because 'The Ballad of John & Yoko', 'Old Brown Shoe', and 'Let It Be' (single) never existed in mono, they've deleted those from the tracklist. I get the obvious logic, but it's kind of a drag because even after I buy Abbey Road and Let It Be (albums), I still don't have those three tracks. It necessitates buying the former Past Masters Vol. 2, just for three songs, to complete the EMI catalogue. I get it would have ruined the 'purity' of this box-set to include them, but they could have just added in the 'fold-down' mixes that usually occurred when stereo tracks were turned into mono. Wouldn't have hurt.
Anyway, it's a fantastic set and there's something nice about having the albums/mixes that the "original" fans and The Beatles themselves heard and wanted. What do/did y'all think about the mono Box-set?
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Post by vectisfabber on Apr 29, 2015 11:20:11 GMT -5
the vast majority of their audience, were thinking in terms of mono almost exclusively. Only because stereo was the province of the super-affluent. As soon as I could lay my hands on affordable stereo equipment (a home made deck, amp and speakers in plywood "cabinets", about 1970), it was stereo all the way for me, baby!
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Post by stavros on Apr 29, 2015 16:25:57 GMT -5
I haven't really listened to the mono set for a good while. But it really is a well packaged set for any serious Beatles collector.
I am not particularly convinced that older audio formats are better. I prefer the static free, hiss free and scratch free sound of CD to vinyl/cassette. I also prefer stereo to mono. Even MP3 tracks are of a much higher quality these days than just a few years ago.
But the earlier Beatles albums suffer from the strange stereo separation on some tracks and could certainly do with a proper modern remix job like George did with "Yellow Submarine Songtrack".
I do seem to remember though, that even the mono 'Sgt. Pepper' has some significant differences. Lucy has more phase effects on the vocal track for instance. I think 'When I'm 64' is different as well but I can't remember why. But the one that has always bugged me is "She's Leaving Home". I prefer this version.
But is that the real speed of the track? There are many stories out there about the recording of it :
Wiki says:
Does anyone know the truth?
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Post by debjorgo on Apr 29, 2015 18:09:28 GMT -5
Stereo was thought to be more for the audiophile type who would want the separation to "study" the sound.
America was much quicker to pick up that stereo should be a full sound. To me, I prefer the Capitol mixes much better than the mono or Stereo UK mixes. I don't like mono but admit the Beatles sound better in mono than on much of their stereo tracks. That's because the stereo mixes are not good mixes.
AB'ing them, I've picked a mix of which tracks sound best. They all have winners, Capitol mixes, Mono mixes and Stereo mixes.
I agree, new stereo mixes are long overdo.
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Post by Panther on Apr 29, 2015 20:37:03 GMT -5
To clarify, the set I bought is the CD one (2009) taken from the original master tapes at EMI (not the vinyl set).
The original mono mixes released during 1962 to 1968 were never issued again (and in some cases never issued at all in the USA) after the 60s. The stereo mixes became the standard issue after the 60s and on all subsequent reissues of Beatles' LPs. The 1987 CDs are the stereo mixes, some of which were done weeks or even months after the mono mixes (and most of which The Beatles themselves had nothing to do with). The exceptions are Help! and Rubber Soul (1987 CDs) which George Martin went back (in 1987) and remixed himself.
The problem with those 1987-2008 era CDs is that the early albums have really extreme stereo separation, when the artists themselves clearly had no interest in it. (As a random example, when I was 21 I worked at a bookstore in Calgary with another young guy, during evenings, and he'd play Rubber Soul on the store stereo while we scoped young girls who came in to shop. It sounded totally crap, though, because the front of the store would have the vocals and the back of the store would have the instruments, and you could never hear both unless you were standing in the middle aisle.)
So, I always think the early albums up to 1965 -- and probably Revolver and Sgt. Pepper, too -- are better served in mono. The Beatles themselves spent a great deal of time working on the Sgt. Pepper mono mix, and left the stereo one to others to do later. Magical Mystery tour better in mono too, probably.
The White Album is the one where it can go either way. In fact, it might be preferable in stereo (in the USA, it was only issued in stereo). The mono album has huge differences on 'Don't Pass Me By' (which for unknown reasons is sped-up and therefore a semitone higher pitched) and 'Helter Skelter' (which is 1 minute shorter). To me, The White Album sounds like the first Beatles' album that was properly mixed in stereo. But the mono has some advantages too (I've never liked the extra fade-back-in minute of 'Helter Skelter', so I'm quite happy without it!).
Abbey Road and Let It Be are stereo-only.
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Post by debjorgo on Apr 29, 2015 22:39:56 GMT -5
The stereo mixes on Revolver and Sgt. Pepper were apparently good enough for Capitol. These were the first albums, to my memory, they did not tamper with. (Either that or they were given a cease and desist order.) To my ears, the stereo mixes are better. Sgt. Pepper has the odd edit leading into Little Help and the Reprise has the Paul ranting vocals leading to A Day. It's interesting because it's different but I like the stereo.
Funny though, the White Album has some odd separation on it. This is most likely done by John or Paul for artistic reason, like John singing a verse of Yer Blues off mike.
I prefer the stereo Helter Skelter. Not so much the break, but I have to have the "I've got blister on my fingers" line.
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Post by vectisfabber on Apr 30, 2015 3:19:32 GMT -5
I think it was only PPM, WTB and (oddly) Rubber Soul which had that instruments/vocals separation, wasn't it?
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Post by John S. Damm on Apr 30, 2015 10:31:21 GMT -5
This Thread has inspired me to pull out my Mono Box purchased in 2009, played once, then forgotten.
I love the Mono "She's Leaving Home." Paul sounds like Paul.
The Mono White Album is scary to me! There is a sinister feel to the whole thing and Mono "Helter Skelter" has those very terrifying beeps that make me feel like I am chained to the wall of some serial killer's basement! Yeah, I don't like the sped up "Don't Pass Me By" in Mono.
"Revolution," the B-Side to "Hey Jude," packs a much greater punch in Mono.
I will dust that white Mono Box off and go exploring. Glad you wrote on this Panther.
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Post by debjorgo on Apr 30, 2015 17:59:04 GMT -5
This Thread has inspired me to pull out my Mono Box purchased in 2009, played once, then forgotten. I love the Mono "She's Leaving Home." Paul sounds like Paul. The Mono White Album is scary to me! There is a sinister feel to the whole thing and Mono "Helter Skelter" has those very terrifying beeps that make me feel like I am chained to the wall of some serial killer's basement! Yeah, I don't like the sped up "Don't Pass Me By" in Mono. "Revolution," the B-Side to "Hey Jude," packs a much greater punch in Mono. I will dust that white Mono Box off and go exploring. Glad you wrote on this Panther. I forgot. On my AB testing, I went with LOVE on Revolution.
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Post by Panther on Apr 30, 2015 19:38:07 GMT -5
This Thread has inspired me to pull out my Mono Box purchased in 2009, played once, then forgotten. Why...? In his book, Richie Unterberger highlights some of the most interesting differences with the mono-mixes. It's too long to copy here, but highlights include: 'Please Please Me' Stereo: John messes up some words in the last verse, seems to almost chuckle Mono: Words in the last verse are perfect 'From Me To You'Stereo: No harmonica in the intro Mono: Harmonica intro 'I Call Your Name'Stereo: no cowbell at the start, different guitar part Mono: cowbell from the beginning, different guitar part 'I Should Have Known Better'Stereo: different harmonica overdubs Mono: " 'If I Fell'Stereo: Paul's voice cracks on the word "vain" Mono: Paul hits the 'vain' note perfectly 'Matchbox'Stereo: different guitar solos Mono: different guitar solos, Ringo sings a longer line at the end of one verse 'Help!'Stereo: entirely different lead vocal by John; tambourine in the chorus Mono: entirely different lead vocal 'I'm Looking Through You'Stereo: Two false-starts of guitar strumming Mono: smooth start 'What Goes On'Stereo: guitar riff in instrumental outro Mono: no guitar riff in instrumental outro 'Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band (reprise)'Stereo: audience-effects are placed differently Mono: 4 extra drum-beats at the start; audience-effects are placed differently 'Back in the USSR'Stereo: Different jet effects Mono: " 'Blackbird'Stereo: Different bird effects Mono: " 'Piggies'Stereo: (you guessed it!) Different pig sounds Mono: " 'Don't Pass My By'Stereo: plays slower than in mono Mono: different and longer fiddle solo; entire track is sped up 'Helter Skelter'Stereo: almost 1 minute longer Mono: almost 1 minute shorter (no fade back in and "I've got blisters on my fingers!!"). Also various differences in drumming, guitar, and vocal parts The weirdest ones, to me, have to be 'Help!' and 'Helter Skelter'. It's one thing for studio engineers to come in a month later (after the mono-mix was done) and choose a slightly different guitar solo or extended intro for stereo, but to choose an entirely different vocal for 'Help!'...? This is a global #1 hit we're talking about. Then, an entire minute is lopped-off 'Helter Skelter'? Wonder if Paul knew about it...
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Post by joeyself on Apr 30, 2015 21:52:16 GMT -5
www.columbia.edu/~brennan/beatles/ would probably interest you for further reading along these lines. Me, I'm not a fan of mono. It was mixed for a single speaker, like from a car dash or clock radio, maybe one of those record players with a speaker in the lid. I don't listen like that today. I also read somewhere that the argument that the mono mixes were given more care and therefore were 'better' by some subjective standard overlooks the object of the mix. Once the soundstage was set for mono, with the levels for the instruments and the vocals, it wasn't that hard to then make a stereo version of what had just been done to achieve roughly the same thing. True, the earliest and the '65 albums didn't put any thought into it, and I will grant that some of the mono recordings sound at least as good, but there is still a bit of a muffled sound to my ears. That said, I'm glad I have the mono box, because I didn't have the mono albums except for some Dr. Ebbetts stuff I snagged on the Internet years ago. I've played the entire set twice, and some of them more than that (The White Album has had 3 plays, I know, and I think MAGICAL MYSTERY TOUR has been out of the box thrice as well). Your point about those stray songs is well taken; something should have been done to accommodate the fans on that. The two albums that didn't have a mono mix just have to be bought separately. JcS
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Post by Panther on May 1, 2015 7:08:39 GMT -5
I dunno, I still think the Mono mixes are more 'authentic' in that they're what The Beatles themselves thought in terms of. Basically, I enjoy music more in mono anyway, but that's just my preference.
I must say, though, that one of my favorite Beatles' covers, "Matchbox", is inferior in mono for two reasons: (a) the guitar solo is different and not as good, and (b) Ringo screws up the lyric "watch how your puppy dog runs" and it sounds weird. The advantage to doing stereo mixes later (and sometimes they were done weeks or months later, usually when The Beatles were nowhere near the studio) is that the engineers could 'fix' an error like Ringo's line by punching in from a different take. But this works both ways, too -- sometimes the stereo mixes created errors due to engineers or George Martin choosing the wrong tracks, or missing errors (that had been corrected in mono) and letting them go out. For example, 'Day Tripper' has that famous drop-out of one channel, and 'Eleanor Rigby' the dreadful drop-out of Paul's voice at the start of the word 'Eleanor'. Also, in 'Yellow Submarine' Ringo doesn't mis-sing "Yellow SLubmarine" in mono; he actually pronounces it correctly! As mentioned before, 'Please Please Me' is way better in mono, not only because John doesn't screw up the lyric, but the centralized sound makes it stronger and it rocks harder.
So, I don't necessarily see any clear advantage of one over the other. The fact is, almost all of us grew up with stereo mixes (myself included), and so we tend to see that as the 'normal' and standard version, but in fact that wasn't the case in the early to mid-60s.
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Post by John S. Damm on May 1, 2015 10:53:00 GMT -5
I forgot that you loved "Matchbox" too, Panther. I will argue until I am blue that Ringo's vocal there(and I refer to Stereo I guess) is his finest bar none. Every hurt, every scrape from his then young life went into that vocal even if he'd say I was full of shit and that it was just another track.
Ringo sings "Matchbox" on the Beatles' version like his life depended on it. His more recent versions, like at that Beatles CBS Special last February 2014 was awesome but Ringo wasn't as intense, he was putting too much jolly into it!
Ringo sang "Matchbox" like how John Lennon treated every cover he sang, especially songs by Black artists, with the utmost respect and much self-uncertainty as to whether he could do it justice but ultimately did.
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Post by stavros on May 1, 2015 15:55:27 GMT -5
This Thread has inspired me to pull out my Mono Box purchased in 2009, played once, then forgotten. I love the Mono "She's Leaving Home." Paul sounds like Paul. The Mono White Album is scary to me! There is a sinister feel to the whole thing and Mono "Helter Skelter" has those very terrifying beeps that make me feel like I am chained to the wall of some serial killer's basement! Yeah, I don't like the sped up "Don't Pass Me By" in Mono. "Revolution," the B-Side to "Hey Jude," packs a much greater punch in Mono. I will dust that white Mono Box off and go exploring. Glad you wrote on this Panther. I forgot. On my AB testing, I went with LOVE on Revolution. "Revolution" certainly does have more presence to it in mono than the original (now re-mastered) edition. But the "Love" and "Rockband" stereo mixes (are they virtually the same?)have a much better and fuller balance to them. Mainly because they separated the guitars in the mix. Yep Panther this is actually a very good thread to spark some interest and debate. We have to remember that in the early Beatles years they were mixing down to sound great on small single speaker transistor radio. Mono was certainly king in the UK and probably many other territories at the time. Stereo was new fangled technology back then and so mixing it took some experimentation to perfect. Don't forget the power of TV either. By the mid60s the Beatles were making promo films for the global arena. Here in the UK stereo broadcasts on TV were not common until the 1990s just a few years before the (surviving) Beatles were working on Anthology together.
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Post by Panther on May 1, 2015 20:29:02 GMT -5
I forgot that you loved "Matchbox" too, Panther. I will argue until I am blue that Ringo's vocal there(and I refer to Stereo I guess) is his finest bar none. Every hurt, every scrape from his then young life went into that vocal even if he'd say I was full of shit and that it was just another track. Absolutely!! And I think he did give it his all. A couple of nights before The Beatles recorded the 'Long Tall Sally' EP (which majorly kicks ass, btw), Carol Perkins was in London and Ringo sort-of asked him if they could have a go at 'Matchbox' in the studio. Perkins of course was all for it (and may have been thinking of the royalties). Carl, according to most sources, was present in the studio when The Beatles knocked out 'Matchbox' in early 1964, so I'm sure Ringo was giving it his all. He also sounds incredible on the BBC cut that made Live at the BBC. To this day, Paul still uses 'Matchbox' as one of his rehearsal / warm-up songs in his live shows. One amusing thing about The Beatles' covers of American rock/R&B/rockabilly hits is that they often didn't understand some of the lyrics, but they went at it full-throttle anyway. For example, in "Memphis, Tennessee" John couldn't understand Chuck Berry's line that "My uncle took the message and he wrote it on the wall", and he sang something like "Smalco (?) took the message and he wrote it on the wall". He sang this 'wrong' even after 5 or 6 BBC performances. Likewise, I suspect The Beatles did not understand what Carl Perkins was singing about in "Matchbox". I say this because Ringo usually sings something like, "I'm sitting here watching/wondering... matchbox holding my clothes." Whereas Carl sings: "I'm sitting here wondering, would a matchbox hold my clothes?" I don't think the Beatles gleaned that Carl was saying that he had so little clothes/possessions, they could fit in a matchbox. In the 1982 (?) TV special with Paul and Carl Perkins, they start talking about this song, and Paul asks Carl what 'Matchbox' was all about. It seems Paul didn't understand this (admittedly odd) lyric, 20+ years later.
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Post by debjorgo on May 1, 2015 22:03:01 GMT -5
I'm wondering if they didn't "clean up" the "show him what this little puppy's done" line. But then again, they added the shake my peach tree line, which is a little risqué itself. Carl may have given them the extra verse as a gift, since he was there.
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Post by Panther on May 1, 2015 22:28:28 GMT -5
"If you don't want Ringo's peaches, honey..."
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Post by winstonoboogie on May 3, 2015 10:38:04 GMT -5
Me, I prefer the BBC version of "Matchbox". I personally don't think Ringo sounds good double-tracked. Also I don't like the way he starts, "I said I'm sitting here..." Well, Ringo, that's the first time you said it...but that's just my own idiosyncracy. To each their own...
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Post by glenn1966 on May 7, 2015 20:02:40 GMT -5
For some reason, "The Night Before" on the UK mono Help! jumped out at me with it's dryer vocal.
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Post by ElDorado on May 20, 2015 23:16:13 GMT -5
Ahhh the never-ending always interesting debate continues. Good points all around but as for me I prefer the mono mixes because those are what the lads actually had a hand in in terms of the mix. The choices made were by the artists and not an engineer or even George Martin. That clinches it for me. True no one listens to a single speaker in the middle of their '67 Dodge Dart anymore but that doesn't change the historical relevance of the aesthitic choices the Beatles themselves made. Plus when you really listen to the mono "soundstage" it's amazing how fine a job they did presenting all that sound and made it vibrant and engaging. Any rod, there's my two cents.
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andyb
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Post by andyb on May 21, 2015 16:12:09 GMT -5
As far as I'm aware they weren't really involved in any/many mix sessions till Rubber Soul, so the angle 'they had a hand in the mixing' always confused me. I bought the mono box set because I only owned the stereo LP's purchased in the 80's and wanted what I'd never heard. What always frustrates me is that you can hear Ringo bashing away like a good 'un on the first album and then he disappears till Rubber Soul. Still sold millions though, so what do I know.
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Post by Panther on May 21, 2015 18:03:10 GMT -5
As far as I'm aware they weren't really involved in any/many mix sessions till Rubber Soul, so the angle 'they had a hand in the mixing' always confused me. Well yeah, all of the mixing, production, and even track-listing probably had very little Beatle-input up to about 1965. But this is an era when an LP was recorded in three days and mixed in one. Also, although the 4 Beatles themselves had little input initially, during that very period mono was totally king. Stereo basically didn't exist for 'pops' albums (or singles) then. I've been hearing Please Please Me in stereo all these years, and I'm sort of pissed about it because nobody in 1963-1965 was hearing it in stereo, including The Beatles. (The single, "Please Please Me", sounds way better in mono, btw.) What always frustrates me is that you can hear Ringo bashing away like a good 'un on the first album and then he disappears till Rubber Soul. I've noticed that, too. Maybe that's why I prefer Please Please Me to the other early albums -- more Ringo! You can barely hear him on the next few records.
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andyb
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Post by andyb on May 22, 2015 11:21:35 GMT -5
I agree that mono was the priority. It was the angle that the band approved and mixed all their records, when clearly that wasn't the case. At least if the Recording Sessions and Recording The Beatles books are to be relied upon. They released 5 albums before Rubber Soul. Just under 50% of their output. I have to say that I was glad when they did get their hands on the wheel and even happier that the mono versions became available, even though I don't think they're regarded as the official versions anymore.
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Post by John S. Damm on May 22, 2015 15:06:06 GMT -5
What always frustrates me is that you can hear Ringo bashing away like a good 'un on the first album and then he disappears till Rubber Soul. I've noticed that, too. Maybe that's why I prefer Please Please Me to the other early albums -- more Ringo! You can barely hear him on the next few records. So basically, there was very little "Beat" in The Beatles from With The Beatles through and including HELP!
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andyb
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Post by andyb on May 22, 2015 16:52:24 GMT -5
I've noticed that, too. Maybe that's why I prefer Please Please Me to the other early albums -- more Ringo! You can barely hear him on the next few records. So basically, there was very little "Beat" in The Beatles from With The Beatles through and including HELP! Certainly not on the mono versions I've got. I'd have to remind myself of the stereo. It's not all the songs, but a big enough majority to make a sweeping generalization about. You can hear the beat, if you really listen, but the poor lad is doing some great stuff back there and because of the way the drums were recorded, all you can mainly hear is the cymbals splashing away. Everyone's listening to the singing anyway. This is all in comparison to modern recordings. Here's something that makes me chuckle. Listen to the mono version of If I Fell and spot the track with (at least) drums and bass being lowered rather quickly after the initial drum fill intro. They come in nice and loud and proud to accent the intro and then very quickly lowered.
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Post by debjorgo on May 22, 2015 17:51:31 GMT -5
So basically, there was very little "Beat" in The Beatles from With The Beatles through and including HELP! Certainly not on the mono versions I've got. I'd have to remind myself of the stereo. It's not all the songs, but a big enough majority to make a sweeping generalization about. You can hear the beat, if you really listen, but the poor lad is doing some great stuff back there and because of the way the drums were recorded, all you can mainly hear is the cymbals splashing away. Everyone's listening to the singing anyway. This is all in comparison to modern recordings. Here's something that makes me chuckle. Listen to the mono version of If I Fell and spot the track with (at least) drums and bass being lowered rather quickly after the initial drum fill intro. They come in nice and loud and proud to accent the intro and then very quickly lowered. You can hear the drums get lower on the Stereo version too, on the left. I don't hear the bass go down, though. If they are on the same track, Ringo must have played softer after the intro, though it does sound like the levels were turned down.
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andyb
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Post by andyb on May 23, 2015 5:13:41 GMT -5
If it is only the drums that go down in level then that 'fader' move was done during the recording. Unless the drums got their own track on a song in 1964! Unprecedented.
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Post by acebackwords on May 26, 2015 16:14:22 GMT -5
Question: I know the Beatles took little interest in the stereo mixes during the Beatles career. But when the Beatles catalogue was transferred from vinyl to CD, did Paul or George take any interest in how the stereo versions were re-mixed? Or at any other time during the post-Beatles years? . . . . .
It always struck me as such a great oddity: That a band that took such meticulous interest in their recordings was so out of the mix (no pun intended) on the stereo versions that largely became the definitive versions of all those Beatles songs.
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Post by stavros on May 26, 2015 16:58:12 GMT -5
Question: I know the Beatles took little interest in the stereo mixes during the Beatles career. But when the Beatles catalogue was transferred from vinyl to CD, did Paul or George take any interest in how the stereo versions were re-mixed? Or at any other time during the post-Beatles years? . . . . . It always struck me as such a great oddity: That a band that took such meticulous interest in their recordings was so out of the mix (no pun intended) on the stereo versions that largely became the definitive versions of all those Beatles songs. From what I recall George Martin was left with the responsibility of transferring the Beatles albums to CD in 1987 (was it really 28 years ago?). I think George Harrison worked on the remixing and remastering of the "Yellow Submarine Songtrack" which was (IMHO) how the Beatles should sound on CD. I'm not sure who oversaw the ' Let It Be Naked' CD nor if Paul and Ringo were too heavily involved on "Love". That seems to have been left to Giles Martin. Even the 2009 remasters were left to the team that gave us the Anthology.
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nine
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Post by nine on May 27, 2015 0:49:21 GMT -5
"Revolution," the B-Side to "Hey Jude," packs a much greater punch in Mono. Found this online ... Lennon disliked the stereo mix, saying in a 1974 interview that the mono mix of "Revolution" was a "heavy record" but "then they made it into a piece of ice cream!"
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