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Post by sayne on Dec 13, 2015 8:27:20 GMT -5
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Post by Panther on Dec 13, 2015 9:21:57 GMT -5
Timberg's opinions on George's post-Beatles' music are way off-base. It's the old "He did 'All Things Must Pass' and nothing else" argument that we've all heard since 1985. The fact that he thinks 'All Those Years Ago', one of George's worst songs, is the highlight of that period says it all, really.
On the other hand, Timberg is quite correct that George was not an independent-minded musician who craved freedom from The Beatles. In music, George was happiest in an ensemble, as part of a band.
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Post by debjorgo on Dec 13, 2015 17:53:09 GMT -5
George was more upset that the Beatles and George Martin didn't spend the same time with his tracks as they did with the Lennon and McCartney songs. Meanwhile they spent hours and hours trying to get Maxwell's Silver Hammer perfect to Paul's ears.
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Post by Panther on Dec 13, 2015 23:22:35 GMT -5
George was more upset that the Beatles and George Martin didn't spend the same time with his tracks as they did with the Lennon and McCartney songs. The only Beatle I'm aware of who commented that George Martin didn't treat his songs properly was John Lennon (which he said in those 1970/71 interviews, which is about 50% hogwash). George Harrison's complaint -- that I'm aware of -- was that Paul was pushy and would force the group to work on his 10 songs first, before they got around to working on one of George's. (This, however, had nothing to do with George Martin.) There were two cases I'm aware of when George Martin rejected Harrisongs. I think one was in 1963/64, shortly after "Don't Bother Me". Wasn't there one other song George wrote, maybe for A Hard Day's Night, which was rejected? But I can't remember if George Martin himself rejected it, or if it just didn't progress to the point of being brought to the studio. (Was this track on 'Anthology', and I'm forgetting it?) The other one is "Only a Northern Song", I think. Wasn't it basically rejected by George Martin for Sgt. Pepper, at which point George went away and came back with "Within You, Without You"?
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Post by debjorgo on Dec 14, 2015 0:34:15 GMT -5
"Paul was pushy and would force the group to work on his 10 songs first" = "didn't spend the same time with his tracks as they did with the Lennon and McCartney songs"
It seems I remember reading/hearing somewhere that, with Martin in the mix, the studio pecking order was John and Paul, with George's songs treated with little time. I remember Martin saying somewhere that he had a little remorse on the subject.
We have a group of Beatles experts here who might have something to add and may be able to quote sources.
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kc
Beatle Freak
Posts: 1,085
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Post by kc on Dec 14, 2015 6:38:19 GMT -5
"Paul was pushy and would force the group to work on his 10 songs first" = "didn't spend the same time with his tracks as they did with the Lennon and McCartney songs" It seems I remember reading/hearing somewhere that, with Martin in the mix, the studio pecking order was John and Paul, with George's songs treated with little time. I remember Martin saying somewhere that he had a little remorse on the subject. We have a group of Beatles experts here who might have something to add and may be able to quote sources. I've heard Martin say something like this in an interview too. Unfortunately, I can't pinpoint where. I'm thinking it might have been in the Produced by George Martin documentary from a few years ago.
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Post by John S. Damm on Dec 14, 2015 9:42:53 GMT -5
Here is a bit of an interview with George from Guitar World so it is sometime between 1987 and 1990, I found this passage on another Board, but it rings authentic:
"GW: Paul told me you wanted to do a similar thing on "Hey Jude," to echo his vocal phrases on the guitar, and that he wouldn't let you. He admitted that incidents like that were one of the causes of the band's breakup. And Ringo said you had the toughest job, because Paul in particular and George Martin as well would sometimes try and dictate what you should play, even on your solos.
Harrison: Well, you know, that's okay. I don't remember the specifics on that song. [pauses] Look, the thing is, so much has been said about our disagreements. It's like...so much time has lapsed, it doesn't really matter anymore.
GW: Was Paul trying to just hold the band together, or was he becoming a control freak? Or was it a bit of both?
Harrison: Well...sometimes Paul "dictated" for the better of a song, but at the same time he also pre-empted some good stuff that could have gone in a different direction. George Martin did that too. But they've all apologized to me for all that over the years.
GW: But you were pissed off enough about all this to leave the band for a short time during the Let It Be sessions. Reportedly, this problem had been brewing for a while. What was it that upset you about what Paul was doing?
Harrison: At that point in time, Paul couldn't see beyond himself. He was so on a roll - but it was a roll encompassing his own self. And in his mind, everything that was going on around him was just there to accompany him. He wasn't sensitive to stepping on other people's egos or feelings. Having said that, when it came time to do the occasional song of mine - although it was usually difficult to get to that point - Paul would always be really creative with what he'd contribute. For instance, that galloping piano part on "While My Guitar Gently Weeps" was Paul's, and it's brilliant right to his day. On the Live in Japan album, I got our keyboardist to play it note for note. And you just have to listen to the bass line on "Something" to know that, when he wanted to, Paul could give a lot. But, you know, there was a time there when..."
This seems to be in the context of George's guitar contributions to songs but it was interesting to me that he mentioned George Martin. And he noted that Paul and George M. had apologized to him through the years.
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Post by Panther on Dec 14, 2015 19:27:03 GMT -5
It's just the way of things that George played the ego-less role in The Beatles. In every combo of musicians or architects or co-workers, somebody has to suck up the others' sh** and be the glue helping hold it together, and that was George's role. His willingness to let Paul and John carve up the songwriting, to let Paul and John get the A- and B-sides, to work on Paul's 10 songs before attempting 1 of his own, to spend hours and hours in Hamburg working on guitar-solos, etc., was one of the main factors allowing The Beatles to exist.
As John was the nominal leader, his voice would always be heard in the studio, and as George Martin favored Paul -- the most natural musician and the one more in accord with Martin's tastes -- his voice would always be heard, too. Martin was also chummy with Dick James, and obviously everyone would be better off financially with more Lennon/McCartney songs being published than songs by anyone else. (Saying this, I am not suggesting that Harrison's songs were equivalent to L/M's circa 1963 to 1966 -- clearly they weren't -- but there was always the option of simply including George in the songwriting arrangement in 1962, but L/M decided not to.)
George was able to handle all this and keep his sanity for years, but of course there comes a point when the same guys in short-pants from the Liverpool Institute shouting at you to play the guitar-solo the way they want it gets annoying... especially when you're a world-famous musician with enough songs of your own to record a #1 album (as George did in 1970). But for several years, George submerged his ego to The Beatles' great benefit.
If John S. Damm is correct and that interview is from the late-80s, that's a period when George (Harrison) was trying to be cordial to Paul. Circa 1985, George was sort-of nasty to Paul, but after 1988 he softened when the business arrangements were more-or-less taken care of and Paul was trying to be friends with everyone again. It's certainly true, in any event, that Paul contributed a great deal to George's (few) songs in the studio, in the Beatle years. Which is more than can be said for Lennon after about 1967, when he seemed to completely lose interest in any song by George.
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kc
Beatle Freak
Posts: 1,085
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Post by kc on Dec 14, 2015 21:15:41 GMT -5
Here is a bit of an interview with George from Guitar World so it is sometime between 1987 and 1990, I found this passage on another Board, but it rings authentic: "GW: Paul told me you wanted to do a similar thing on "Hey Jude," to echo his vocal phrases on the guitar, and that he wouldn't let you. He admitted that incidents like that were one of the causes of the band's breakup. And Ringo said you had the toughest job, because Paul in particular and George Martin as well would sometimes try and dictate what you should play, even on your solos. Harrison: Well, you know, that's okay. I don't remember the specifics on that song. [pauses] Look, the thing is, so much has been said about our disagreements. It's like...so much time has lapsed, it doesn't really matter anymore. GW: Was Paul trying to just hold the band together, or was he becoming a control freak? Or was it a bit of both? Harrison: Well...sometimes Paul "dictated" for the better of a song, but at the same time he also pre-empted some good stuff that could have gone in a different direction. George Martin did that too. But they've all apologized to me for all that over the years. GW: But you were pissed off enough about all this to leave the band for a short time during the Let It Be sessions. Reportedly, this problem had been brewing for a while. What was it that upset you about what Paul was doing? Harrison: At that point in time, Paul couldn't see beyond himself. He was so on a roll - but it was a roll encompassing his own self. And in his mind, everything that was going on around him was just there to accompany him. He wasn't sensitive to stepping on other people's egos or feelings. Having said that, when it came time to do the occasional song of mine - although it was usually difficult to get to that point - Paul would always be really creative with what he'd contribute. For instance, that galloping piano part on "While My Guitar Gently Weeps" was Paul's, and it's brilliant right to his day. On the Live in Japan album, I got our keyboardist to play it note for note. And you just have to listen to the bass line on "Something" to know that, when he wanted to, Paul could give a lot. But, you know, there was a time there when..." This seems to be in the context of George's guitar contributions to songs but it was interesting to me that he mentioned George Martin. And he noted that Paul and George M. had apologized to him through the years. It doesn't matter, but the Live In Japan album came out in 1992, so your time frame is off a bit. Maybe the interview was about promoting that album, or it could be from later still.
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Post by John S. Damm on Dec 14, 2015 23:35:12 GMT -5
Good spot, KC. Yeah it was sometime after Live In Japan but not too much later as I don't remember George doing a lot of interviews by the mid 1990's on.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2015 0:18:01 GMT -5
. Which is more than can be said for Lennon after about 1967, when he seemed to completely lose interest in any song by George. That's one reason why i laugh when i read about wacko Lennon whining his arse off that George didn't laud him in his I Me Mine tome. Is it any wonder George paid him little regard, maybe Lennon never really wanted George in the Beatles, George joined as a mate of Macca's Lennon never really acknowledged George for the help he gave him on some of Lennon's songs. IMO, in the Yoko era, George was a better Beatles contributor when compared to wacko John, i think Lennon knew that and resented George because of it.
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Post by Panther on Dec 15, 2015 2:54:31 GMT -5
. Which is more than can be said for Lennon after about 1967, when he seemed to completely lose interest in any song by George. That's one reason why i laugh when i read about wacko Lennon whining his arse off that George didn't laud him in his I Me Mine tome. Is it any wonder George paid him little regard, maybe Lennon never really wanted George in the Beatles, George joined as a mate of Macca's Lennon never really acknowledged George for the help he gave him on some of Lennon's songs. IMO, inn the Yoko era, George was a better Beatles contributor when compared to wacko John, i think Lennon knew that and resented George because of it. As George's #1 fan, you may be over-stating things a little. But I get where you're coming from -- I think John did have insecurity issues with George's "rise" to prominence circa 1969-70. Formula for The Beatles to function: - John active and inspired - Paul workaholic and in financial-security with John - George taking it on the chin and getting on with it as junior partner - Ringo as everyone's friend and clown Once any of these roles became severely changed, the band couldn't really function.
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Post by vectisfabber on Dec 15, 2015 5:00:02 GMT -5
- Ringo as everyone's friend and clown and metronome and endlessly inventive and selfless drummer and percussionist.
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Dec 15, 2015 9:57:07 GMT -5
Is it any wonder George paid him little regard, maybe Lennon never really wanted George in the Beatles, George joined as a mate of Macca's Lennon never really acknowledged George for the help he gave him on some of Lennon's songs. IMO, in the Yoko era, George was a better Beatles contributor when compared to wacko John, i think Lennon knew that and resented George because of it. IMO, Paul should have played lead guitar in The Beatles. Or they should have gotten a really good lead guitarist who could play well on the fly. re: "The Yoko Era" : John was growing up and was ready to dissolve his high school/Beatles incarnation -- Period.
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Post by Panther on Dec 15, 2015 10:11:24 GMT -5
- Ringo as everyone's friend and clown and metronome and endlessly inventive and selfless drummer and percussionist. Oh, of course! But I wasn't talking about their musical contributions.
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Post by stavros on Dec 15, 2015 15:29:03 GMT -5
Here's a few quote I've found on George's role in the Beatles.
I think in the early years George was fine with the role he played in the Beatles but once the touring stopped it all started to change. The Beatles were like 4 solid legs of a table. But by the end of 1967 and with Brian gone it all started to go horribly wobbly.
Paul was trying to fill the vacuum left by Brian and trying to keep the Beatles busy. John had found Yoko and mind altering substances. George had been absorbed in Eastern Music and mysticism. Ringo was still hanging in for the ride but even he was feeling unloved at times.
George genuinely still wanted to be part of the band in that late Beatles era. But his song writing had matured and he wanted to be seen as an equal and his songs given the same care and attention that John and Paul's songs received. It seems that George felt that wasn't the case.
I think we can take from the quotes above that George had problems with Paul's over bearing personality. But George stays cool in that "I'll play whatever you want me to play" argument with Paul. So perhaps George was resentful of John's mocking attitude to his songs. When in fact this was merely to cover up the fact that John was almost out of tunes during the 'Let it Be' period. Thankfully Abbey Road shone because all four Beatles decided to make it so.
I disagree with the article linked though that George peaked with the Beatles and ATMP. There are hidden gems amongst his later albums. Then bang in the late 1980s there was George back in the limelight with a modern, radio friendly record, Cloud 9, that was loved by Beatles fans. He then went on to enjoy himself as one of the Wilburys on two fun albums before he left us with the slickly produced Brainwashed.
I think by the time he wrote "When Was Was Fab" he'd let go a lot of that bitterness. He would always speak his mind about Paul during that late 80s/early 90s pre-Anthology time. Yet George always pointed out he was on good terms with Paul and they were still mates.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2015 4:19:05 GMT -5
Here's a quote from George, the Beatles lead guitarist,that Lennon didn't promote, or chose to ignore,
John had a song he had started to write which he was singing: 'Maharishi, what have you done?' and I said, 'You can't say that, it's ridiculous.' I came up with the title of Sexy Sadie and John changed 'Maharishi' to 'Sexy Sadie'.
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lowbasso
A Hard Day's Knight
Posts: 2,776
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Post by lowbasso on Dec 16, 2015 15:02:01 GMT -5
Here's a quote from George, the Beatles lead guitarist,that Lennon didn't promote, or chose to ignore, John had a song he had started to write which he was singing: 'Maharishi, what have you done?' and I said, 'You can't say that, it's ridiculous.' I came up with the title of Sexy Sadie and John changed 'Maharishi' to 'Sexy Sadie'. So there is an example of a Lennon/Harrison song..... How many L&M songs could really be called "Lennon/Harrison", or "McCartney/Harrison", or more likely; "Lennon/McCartney/Harrison" songs in reality.......
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Post by Panther on Dec 16, 2015 17:54:41 GMT -5
How many L&M songs could really be called "Lennon/Harrison", or "McCartney/Harrison", or more likely; "Lennon/McCartney/Harrison" songs in reality....... Well, the first published Beatles song was a Harrison/Lennon co-write ('Beatle Bop', aka: 'Cry for a Shadow'). It starts getting into that perennially grey area of 'who-deserves-credit'. No doubt there are many Lennon/McCartney songs where George's contribution was greater than Lennon's, and probably a few (but far less) where George's contribution was greater than McCartney's.
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nine
Very Clean
Posts: 840
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Post by nine on Dec 17, 2015 21:00:27 GMT -5
Here is a bit of an interview with George from Guitar World so it is sometime between 1987 and 1990, I found this passage on another Board, but it rings authentic: "GW: Paul told me you wanted to do a similar thing on "Hey Jude," to echo his vocal phrases on the guitar, and that he wouldn't let you. He admitted that incidents like that were one of the causes of the band's breakup. And Ringo said you had the toughest job, because Paul in particular and George Martin as well would sometimes try and dictate what you should play, even on your solos. Harrison: Well, you know, that's okay. I don't remember the specifics on that song. [pauses] Look, the thing is, so much has been said about our disagreements. It's like...so much time has lapsed, it doesn't really matter anymore. GW: Was Paul trying to just hold the band together, or was he becoming a control freak? Or was it a bit of both? Harrison: Well...sometimes Paul "dictated" for the better of a song, but at the same time he also pre-empted some good stuff that could have gone in a different direction. George Martin did that too. But they've all apologized to me for all that over the years. GW: But you were pissed off enough about all this to leave the band for a short time during the Let It Be sessions. Reportedly, this problem had been brewing for a while. What was it that upset you about what Paul was doing? Harrison: At that point in time, Paul couldn't see beyond himself. He was so on a roll - but it was a roll encompassing his own self. And in his mind, everything that was going on around him was just there to accompany him. He wasn't sensitive to stepping on other people's egos or feelings. Having said that, when it came time to do the occasional song of mine - although it was usually difficult to get to that point - Paul would always be really creative with what he'd contribute. For instance, that galloping piano part on "While My Guitar Gently Weeps" was Paul's, and it's brilliant right to his day. On the Live in Japan album, I got our keyboardist to play it note for note. And you just have to listen to the bass line on "Something" to know that, when he wanted to, Paul could give a lot. But, you know, there was a time there when..." This seems to be in the context of George's guitar contributions to songs but it was interesting to me that he mentioned George Martin. And he noted that Paul and George M. had apologized to him through the years. I reckon it's after 1990 as George mentions Live in Japan.
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nine
Very Clean
Posts: 840
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Post by nine on Dec 17, 2015 21:04:51 GMT -5
. Which is more than can be said for Lennon after about 1967, when he seemed to completely lose interest in any song by George. That's one reason why i laugh when i read about wacko Lennon whining his arse off that George didn't laud him in his I Me Mine tome. Is it any wonder George paid him little regard, maybe Lennon never really wanted George in the Beatles, George joined as a mate of Macca's Lennon never really acknowledged George for the help he gave him on some of Lennon's songs. IMO, in the Yoko era, George was a better Beatles contributor when compared to wacko John, i think Lennon knew that and resented George because of it. Certainly in the cases of LIB and Abbey Road. Lennon had stuff all to contribute to the former. I think George must have enjoyed Abbey Road because he and Paul were the driving force on that album.
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