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Post by joshferrell on Jan 23, 2016 17:01:56 GMT -5
I noticed that ELO has a song called "I'm steppin out" and of course Lennon had a song with the same title,,,the music doesn't really sound alike but the part where they are singing "I'm steppin Out" sound quit similar to what John sang on his song during that spot in fact they both even go up at the end of the line..
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Jan 24, 2016 7:21:05 GMT -5
I noticed that ELO has a song called "I'm steppin out" and of course Lennon had a song with the same title,,,the music doesn't really sound alike but the part where they are singing "I'm steppin Out" sound quit similar to what John sang on his song during that spot in fact they both even go up at the end of the line.. I don't hear any similarity between ELO's song and John's song here, but I must tell you that in recent years I have been becoming very disillusioned and disappointed in John's songwriting, as it's becoming more and more evident how much Lennon ripped off others' songs in "creating" his own. John admitted several times where various Beatles and solo Lennon melodies and "licks" came from, and often conceded that he did someone's middle eight backwards, and things like that. And when I learned that the wonderful HAPPY XMAS (WAR IS OVER) song was a direct steal off the folk song STEWBALL, I was sufficiently heartbroken. But it seems like more and more evidence is coming to the fore all the time about how unoriginal John's writing was. Here was another buzz-killer, when I discovered that an old intro by Pee Wee Crayton (which is repeated later through the record) was probably copied by John for REVOLUTION:
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Post by joshferrell on Jan 24, 2016 11:40:15 GMT -5
wow..that is interesting thanks for sharing..
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Post by Panther on Jan 25, 2016 5:44:19 GMT -5
I dunno, little intros and stuff like that don't really matter much. They're just little bits and pieces that John liked and tagged onto compositions. (Another one: the outro of 'Ballad of John & Yoko' is the guitar-riff from Paul's number, 'The Honeymoon Song'.) But those things generally aren't the meat and bones of the song -- they're just small bits.
But yes, 'Stewball' was rather a terrible steal, not in the act of borrowing itself, but rather in that John took credit for the song. Didn't he get sued for that and later settled out of court?
Here's Joan Baez singing 'Happy Xmas'... er, 'Stewball' in 1966:
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Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2016 7:58:32 GMT -5
I dunno, little intros and stuff like that don't really matter much. They're just little bits and pieces that John liked and tagged onto compositions. (Another one: the outro of 'Ballad of John & Yoko' is the guitar-riff from Paul's number, 'The Honeymoon Song'.) But those things generally aren't the meat and bones of the song -- they're just small bits. But yes, 'Stewball' was rather a terrible steal, not in the act of borrowing itself, but rather in that John took credit for the song. Didn't he get sued for that and later settled out of court? Here's Joan Baez singing 'Happy Xmas'... er, 'Stewball' in 1966: I'm fairly sure John's version of Stewball was another one he got away with. To think he put the boots into George for My Sweet Lord, a supposed rip off based on a similar motif to He's so Fine whereas John's Stewball ripoff is so much more blatant.
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andyb
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Post by andyb on Jan 26, 2016 7:54:01 GMT -5
Do we know who came up with the intro guitar part on Revolution?
We assume it was John, but it could easily have been suggested by Paul or George.
I think it's fascinating when people say where the influence or nick is from. It's obvious when pointed out but they are the writer who came up with the idea and put in the hard work and did it. The 74(?) Lennon radio show where he says things like "this next song is 'son of walrus' meets 'sitting on the dock of the bay' and I though it was great single . . ." is interesting.
It's like evolution man! Small changes over successive generations.
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Post by Panther on Jan 26, 2016 9:23:32 GMT -5
To think he put the boots into George for My Sweet Lord, a supposed rip off based on a similar motif to He's so Fine whereas John's Stewball ripoff is so much more blatant. John did eat Mexican beans before taking a giant dump all over All Things Must Pass... and then he fumed in jealousy as it massively out-sold his own records. However, I don't recall John ripping into George for the 'He's So Fine' thing. I do recall John saying in an interview that George could have just "changed a few chords and gotten away with it" or something like that, but he didn't seem spiteful at all. Paul, on the other hand, takes every possible opportunity to point out that George "nicked" 'My Sweet Lord'.
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Post by mikev on Jan 26, 2016 11:04:01 GMT -5
I dunno, little intros and stuff like that don't really matter much. They're just little bits and pieces that John liked and tagged onto compositions. (Another one: the outro of 'Ballad of John & Yoko' is the guitar-riff from Paul's number, 'The Honeymoon Song'.) But those things generally aren't the meat and bones of the song -- they're just small bits. But yes, 'Stewball' was rather a terrible steal, not in the act of borrowing itself, but rather in that John took credit for the song. Didn't he get sued for that and later settled out of court? Here's Joan Baez singing 'Happy Xmas'... er, 'Stewball' in 1966: I'm fairly sure John's version of Stewball was another one he got away with. To think he put the boots into George for My Sweet Lord, a supposed rip off based on a similar motif to He's so Fine whereas John's Stewball ripoff is so much more blatant. This song as well as Black Dog Blues (Crippled Inside) use standard chord patterns, where maybe John felt it was more of a style than a nick. But man-this just follows the melody note for note.
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Post by vectisfabber on Jan 26, 2016 11:50:28 GMT -5
I think it's probably fairly easy, if you're massively exposed to music and creating new music all the time, to come up with some melody and not realise that it's already established elsewhere - as well as John/Stewball and George/He's So Fine, we also have Paul/People Get Ready. And, as John pointed out, if you realised it, you'd tweak it a bit so that it was original and not a nick. I'm inclined to cut them some slack here. Mind you, that's because I wondered why one of my own songs sounded Christmassy and then realised that I'd lifted bits of melody from 3 Christmas carols.
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andyb
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Post by andyb on Jan 26, 2016 13:27:11 GMT -5
I remember REM unconsciously plagerised "Suzanne" by Leonard Cohen. Thought they'd written a cracker till they realised the melodic similarities just before the album's release. They phoned up Len and asked if they could put his name on it and he agreed.
Sometimes these things happen unintentionally as well as blatantly.
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Post by John S. Damm on Jan 26, 2016 16:33:08 GMT -5
I don't get bent out of shape about any of this as it is only Rock and Roll. Nothing is truly new under the Sun!
And I have never read where John claims to have written the melody. I like what Wikipedia says:
"Happy Xmas (War Is Over)" is a traditional song with lyrics by John Lennon and Yoko Ono, released in 1971 as a single by John & Yoko/Plastic Ono Band with the Harlem Community Choir. The lyrics are set to the traditional English ballad "Stewball".
Isn't "Golden Slumbers" the opposite? Paul took traditional lyrics and wrote the gorgeous melody?
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Post by stavros on Jan 26, 2016 17:58:47 GMT -5
John even wrote a song very similar to George
Or did George write a song similar to John?
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Post by debjorgo on Jan 26, 2016 18:25:12 GMT -5
Stewball was from the 18th century. No one knows who wrote it. I think that makes it public domain.
What's the deal with the old Someday Baby Blues written by Sleepy John Estes that Muddy Waters wrote called Trouble No More, and Bob Dylan wrote called Someday Baby?
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Post by Panther on Jan 26, 2016 20:10:06 GMT -5
What's the deal with the old Someday Baby Blues written by Sleepy John Estes that Muddy Waters wrote called Trouble No More, and Bob Dylan wrote called Someday Baby? Oh God, don't get millennial-Bob Dylan fans started on how much credit he's taken that he doesn't deserve. They're all convinced that the more a songwriter steals, the greater he is.
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Post by debjorgo on Jan 26, 2016 20:31:46 GMT -5
What's the deal with the old Someday Baby Blues written by Sleepy John Estes that Muddy Waters wrote called Trouble No More, and Bob Dylan wrote called Someday Baby? Oh God, don't get millennial-Bob Dylan fans started on how much credit he's taken that he doesn't deserve. They're all convinced that the more a songwriter steals, the greater he is. I was thinking that Led Zeppelin was involved in this but it was the Allman Brothers who did the song and they credited Muddy Waters.
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Jan 27, 2016 5:28:12 GMT -5
I think it's probably fairly easy, if you're massively exposed to music and creating new music all the time, to come up with some melody and not realise that it's already established elsewhere - as well as John/Stewball and George/He's So Fine, we also have Paul/People Get Ready. And, as John pointed out, if you realised it, you'd tweak it a bit so that it was original and not a nick. I'm inclined to cut them some slack here. I don't think Paul has nicked others' songs nearly as often as John has, though. That's why I -- even as a "John Guy" -- am really getting more and more disappointed with Lennon as a writer. I must give Paul the credit as the better songwriter... I truly believe Paul was/is more naturally gifted in creating his own melodies. There have been some nicks by Paul too, sure ... but not nearly as many. It makes me wonder how many Lennon songs I love may actually be others' old songs that I have yet to become aware of. John was like the Quentin Tarantino of songwriters.
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andyb
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Post by andyb on Jan 28, 2016 14:27:06 GMT -5
What songs are we saying he's lifted?
I couldn't find a list. I'm not counting that Revolution intro because that's part of an arrangement and could have been anyone's idea.
Coming up with really original tunes is virtually impossible. You'd probably have to load every tune ever written into a computer and press the 'random but don't copy' button.
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Post by debjorgo on Feb 29, 2016 12:51:59 GMT -5
The Anthology version of I'm Stepping Out just came up on my iPod.
I'm sure I ever noticed John singing "I got to, take a chance. I got ants, in my pants" in the fadeout.
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