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Post by vectisfabber on Sept 1, 2016 4:39:21 GMT -5
I have always felt that Lewisohn goes out of his way to be non-partisan: the information he presents comes across as reportage rather than opinion.
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Post by ReturnToPepperland on Sept 1, 2016 5:21:22 GMT -5
I have always felt that Lewisohn goes out of his way to be non-partisan: the information he presents comes across as reportage rather than opinion. Just go back and look at how many John versus Paul outakes/songs were on Anthology. That's why they should do a fourth volume to make up for the Paul tracks that were ignored. Lewisohn had ultimate control over this He even admitted it.
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Post by ReturnToPepperland on Sept 1, 2016 5:31:28 GMT -5
Yes Joe, I am more with Paul, but I am not writing the definite history of the Beatles. When I hear Lewisohn speak, I often see he has an axe to grind.
I just believe that the lying accusation is like calling someone a racist when there is no evidence of such. That kind of slander is the last refuge of a scoundrel.
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lowbasso
A Hard Day's Knight
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Post by lowbasso on Sept 1, 2016 7:25:18 GMT -5
Yes Joe, I am more with Paul, but I am not writing the definite history of the Beatles. When I hear Lewisohn speak, I often see he has an axe to grind. I just believe that the lying accusation is like calling someone a racist when there is no evidence of such. That kind of slander is the last refuge of a scoundrel. Regarding who contributed what to the L&M Song Catalogue; We can only rely on what was said by both writers prior to John's death. Because they both had opportunities to react to what the other said. Since 1980 that is no longer the case, so anything Paul claims cannot be addressed to by John. So how can it be accepted as fully accurate? Especially in light of Paul's desire in recent years to appear to be claiming more and more credit for much of the catalogue. I see Lewisohn as attempting to be as accurate as one can be based on what both men said about this subject. I don't see any axes being grinded. Can these be pointed out specifically please?
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Post by John S. Damm on Sept 1, 2016 8:15:21 GMT -5
1. The whole point is that these things never seemed to concern Paul when he was a young man; but now he is obsessed with boosting up his influence in The Beatles. With the KITE song, for nearly 50 years the world (and Paul) has been fine with accepting KITE as "a John song"; suddenly, Paul decides -- and his words here are very telling: "I wanted to re-claim it as partially mine" (it's the term "reclaim" which is bizarre). It would be the same idea if it was John who was alive with Paul deceased, and suddenly John said "I wrote half of WHEN I'M 64, and I want to now re-claim YESTERDAY as partially my own because I actually had part of the idea", or "I was actually the one who was the ballad singer" (like Paul's "I was the Avant Garde one") ... etc. 2. It can also be suggested that it's true because the reader wants it to be true. And it has been long said that Paul "re-writes history". 3. Glad I remembered to touch on this, as I'd forgotten previously. This business about "Paul was there, we were not" is a load of hogwash in many cases. Mark Lewisohn will tell you this after doing much historical research ... and it applies not only to Paul, but also Ringo, George Martin, or anyone else associated with The Beatles. People think that if you weren't there, then you don't know the real story and they do... and while this can be the case sometimes, also many times we see that even the main participants themselves get facts screwed up. Just look at how messed up George Martin's account of signing The Beatles is. 4. It's my opinion that it is. In the past Paul did not care... now he's paranoid that some kid playing with his smartphone screen might decide to look up YESTERDAY some day and see that it says "John Lennon and P -- ". But even if Paul could somehow fix that, there also will be all sorts of future devices and technologies developed after he's dead that he cannot possibly safeguard his memory against. 5. First, we don't know if it's true (and Paul re-writes history, as is his longstanding reputation). And here we go again bashing John Lennon.. and quite frankly, John has always had his share of merciless bashing already, especially once he hitched up with Yoko during the period you talk about. But John was always the more weird one, always the more risqué and adventurous one... and now Paul is trying to take even that from John. It's true that Paul's tape loops were used for TOMORROW NEVER KNOWS, but that hardly established him overall as "The Avant Garde One" (besides, if Paul WAS truly the Avant Garde One, you wouldn't like his music). Mark Lewisohn is firmly planted in the Lennon camp. Welcome back RTP, we had sent out a search party for you but they went missing!
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Post by ReturnToPepperland on Sept 1, 2016 12:39:08 GMT -5
I have always felt that Lewisohn goes out of his way to be non-partisan: the information he presents comes across as reportage rather than opinion. This is part of review of Lewisohn's book The Beatles – All These Years: Volume One: Tune In "For all the new light that’s cast here, the overriding view is that Lennon was the driving force of the group. If anything, this “lone ranger… always flat broke and on the scrounge” emerges even more dominant than previously assumed. By contrast, Paul’s doe-eyed reputation takes a knock. Arch rival Stu Sutcliffe writes home that everyone hated him, and there is evidence that the predominant attitude was “I liked Paul but I wasn’t big on him”. Paul is said to have displayed a ruthless streak as evidenced in the ousting of Pete Best, a drawn-out process that makes for painful reading." Sounds rather biased to me.
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Post by ReturnToPepperland on Sept 1, 2016 12:44:35 GMT -5
Mark Lewisohn is firmly planted in the Lennon camp. Welcome back RTP, we had sent out a search party for you but they went missing! Thanks JSD. Its very good to be back on the board. I see most or all are still here with some new names. I have been right here in Shelby Township, Michigan all the while. Did you get a chance to see any of Paul's concert's this summer? I didn't unfortunately. If you did, what did you think if the show?
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Post by ReturnToPepperland on Sept 1, 2016 13:03:21 GMT -5
For example here is Anthology 2. While in the end as I have shown based upon direct words from John and Paul, their songwriting percentage of the Beatles were almost exactly 50% to 50% excluding all other composers in their recordings. Yet on this list of 45 songs, only 16 are related to Paul. That is only about one-third of the total songs. And one of those was just the strings from Eleanor Rigby, no vocal. What about the great outtakes of Here, There and Everywhere, She's a Woman, We Can Work It Out, Paperback Writer etc. etc. This does not appear even handed to me and Anthology 1 and 3 are no better from what recall.
1."Real Love" (John Lennon) – 3:54 Lennon demo recorded at The Dakota, Manhattan, New York City, New York, July 1979; Beatles version recorded February 1995
2."Yes It Is" (Takes 2 & 14) – 1:50 Recorded at Abbey Road Studios, London, England, 16 February 1965
3."I'm Down" (Take 1) – 2:53 Recorded at Abbey Road Studios, London, England, 14 June 1965
4."You've Got to Hide Your Love Away" (Takes 1, 2 & 5) (Mono) – 2:45 5."If You've Got Trouble" (Take 1) – 2:48 Tracks 4-5 recorded at Abbey Road Studios, London, England, 18 February 1965
6."That Means a Lot" (Take 1) – 2:27 Recorded at Abbey Road Studios, London, England, 20 February 1965
7."Yesterday" (Take 1) – 2:34 Recorded at Abbey Road Studios, London, England, 14 June 1965
8."It's Only Love" (Takes 2 & 3) (Mono) – 1:59 Recorded at Abbey Road Studios, London, England, 15 June 1965
9."I Feel Fine" (Mono) – 2:16 10."Ticket to Ride" (Mono) – 2:45 11."Yesterday" (Mono) – 2:43 12."Help!" (Mono) – 2:55 Tracks 9-12 recorded live at ABC Theatre, Blackpool, Lancashire, England, 1 August 1965 for the Blackpool Night Out television broadcast
13."Everybody's Trying to Be My Baby" (Carl Perkins) (Mono) – 2:45 Recorded live at Shea Stadium, New York City, New York, 15 August 1965
14."Norwegian Wood (This Bird Has Flown)" (Take 1) – 1:59 Recorded at Abbey Road Studios, London, England, 12 October 1965
15."I'm Looking Through You" (Take 1) – 2:54 Recorded at Abbey Road Studios, London, England, 24 October 1965
16."12-Bar Original" (Edited Take 2) (Lennon, Paul McCartney, George Harrison, Richard Starkey) – 2:55 Recorded at Abbey Road Studios, London, England, 4 November 1965
17."Tomorrow Never Knows" (Take 1) – 3:14 Recorded at Abbey Road Studios, London, England, 6 April 1966
18."Got to Get You into My Life" (Take 5) (Mono) – 2:54 Recorded at Abbey Road Studios, London, England, 7 April 1966
19."And Your Bird Can Sing" (Take 2) – 2:13 Recorded at Abbey Road Studios, London, England, 20 April 1966
20."Taxman" (Take 11) (Harrison) – 2:32 Recorded at Abbey Road Studios, London, England, 21 April 1966
21."Eleanor Rigby" (Take 14) – 2:06 Backing string section without vocals; recorded at Abbey Road Studios, London, England, 28 April 1966
22."I'm Only Sleeping" (Rehearsal) (Mono) – 0:41 23."I'm Only Sleeping" (Take 1) (Mono) – 2:59 Tracks 22-23 recorded at Abbey Road Studios, London, England, 29 April 1966
24."Rock and Roll Music" (Chuck Berry) (Mono) – 1:39 25."She's a Woman" (Mono) – 2:55 Tracks 24-25 recorded live at Nippon Budokan Hall, Tokyo, Japan, 30 June 1966
Disc two[edit] 1."Strawberry Fields Forever" (Demo sequence) (Mono) – 1:42 Lennon demo recorded at Kenwood, Weybridge, Surrey, England, November 1966
2."Strawberry Fields Forever" (Take 1) – 2:35 Recorded at Abbey Road Studios, London, England, 24 November 1966
3."Strawberry Fields Forever" (Take 7 and edit piece) (Mono) – 4:14 Full take of song used for intro and first verse - recorded at Abbey Road Studios, London, England, 29 November and 9 December 1966
4."Penny Lane" (Take 9 horn overdub) – 3:13 Composite of takes recorded at Abbey Road Studios, London, England, 29 December 1966 – 17 January 1967
5."A Day in the Life" (Takes 1, 2, 6 & orchestra) – 5:05 Basic track of master version without "psychedelic" overdubs - composite of takes recorded at Abbey Road Studios, London, England, 19–20 January and 10 February 1967
6."Good Morning Good Morning" (Take 8) – 2:40 Composite of takes recorded at Abbey Road Studios, London, England, 8 & 16 February 1967
7."Only a Northern Song" (Takes 3 & 12) (Harrison) – 2:44 Composite of takes recorded at Abbey Road Studios, London, England, 13–14 February and 20 April 1967
8."Being for the Benefit of Mr. Kite!" (Takes 1 & 2) – 1:05 9."Being for the Benefit of Mr. Kite!" (Take 7 & effects tape) – 2:34 Tracks 8-9 composite of takes recorded at Abbey Road Studios, London, England, 17 & 20 February 1967
10."Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds" (Takes 6, 7 & 8) – 3:06 Composite of takes recorded at Abbey Road Studios, London, England, 1–2 March 1967
11."Within You Without You" (Harrison) – 5:27 Instrumental backing track; composite of takes recorded at Abbey Road Studios, London, England, 15 March–3 April 1967
12."Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band (Reprise)" (Take 5) (Mono) – 1:27 Recorded at Abbey Road Studios, London, England, 1 April 1967
13."You Know My Name (Look Up the Number)" – 5:43 Composite of takes recorded at Abbey Road Studios, London, England, 17 May 1967 – 30 April 1969
14."I Am the Walrus" (Take 16) – 4:02 Basic track of master version without "psychedelic" overdubs - recorded at Abbey Road Studios, London, England, 5 September 1967
15."The Fool on the Hill" (Mono) – 2:48 McCartney demo recorded at Abbey Road Studios, London, England, 6 September 1967
16."Your Mother Should Know" (Take 27) – 3:02 Recorded at Abbey Road Studios, London, England, 16 September 1967
17."The Fool on the Hill" (Take 4) – 3:45 Recorded at Abbey Road Studios, London, England, 25 September 1967
18."Hello, Goodbye" (Take 16 and overdubs) – 3:18 Composite of takes recorded at Abbey Road Studios, London, England, 2 & 19 October 1967
19."Lady Madonna" (Takes 3 & 4) – 2:22 Composite of takes recorded at Abbey Road Studios, London, England, 3 & 6 February 1968
20."Across the Universe" (Take 2) – 3:29 Recorded at Abbey Road Studios, London, England, 4 February 1968
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markc
Very Clean
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Paul Lied
Sept 1, 2016 13:19:25 GMT -5
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Post by markc on Sept 1, 2016 13:19:25 GMT -5
But RTP, Paul was alive to veto or promote his songs on the Anthologies. Plus, John wrote a lot of songs in the early years (look at the AHDN album) and is famous for not knowing what the finished song should sound like. Whereas Paul knew how his finished songs should sound (down to George's solo). Perhaps this led to more unused or unfinished John takes an demos. A prime example is SFF, and he mentioned it in his last interviews in 1980.
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markc
Very Clean
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Post by markc on Sept 1, 2016 13:24:50 GMT -5
And how is calling John the leader in the years up to Love Me Do inaccurate?
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Sept 1, 2016 18:56:41 GMT -5
This is part of review of Lewisohn's book The Beatles – All These Years: Volume One: Tune In "For all the new light that’s cast here, the overriding view is that Lennon was the driving force of the group. If anything, this “lone ranger… always flat broke and on the scrounge” emerges even more dominant than previously assumed. By contrast, Paul’s doe-eyed reputation takes a knock. Arch rival Stu Sutcliffe writes home that everyone hated him, and there is evidence that the predominant attitude was “I liked Paul but I wasn’t big on him”. Paul is said to have displayed a ruthless streak as evidenced in the ousting of Pete Best, a drawn-out process that makes for painful reading." Sounds rather biased to me. But RTP, this was how it was at that time period. Now, if Mark Lewisohn is still writing that Lennon was the driving force of the group during 1967 - 1970, I think you would have a legitimate gripe.
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Post by John S. Damm on Sept 1, 2016 20:34:40 GMT -5
Welcome back RTP, we had sent out a search party for you but they went missing! Thanks JSD. Its very good to be back on the board. I see most or all are still here with some new names. I have been right here in Shelby Township, Michigan all the while. Did you get a chance to see any of Paul's concert's this summer? I didn't unfortunately. If you did, what did you think if the show? I have not been able to see Paul this year. I would if he came to Indianapolis or maybe some other city close by. I will not go to Chicago for concerts anymore because that place is out of control. I enjoyed seeing Paul in 2005 in Columbus, Ohio and I would go there again.
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lowbasso
A Hard Day's Knight
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Post by lowbasso on Sept 1, 2016 21:31:14 GMT -5
For example here is Anthology 2. While in the end as I have shown based upon direct words from John and Paul, their songwriting percentage of the Beatles were almost exactly 50% to 50% excluding all other composers in their recordings. Yet on this list of 45 songs, only 16 are related to Paul. That is only about one-third of the total songs. And one of those was just the strings from Eleanor Rigby, no vocal. What about the great outtakes of Here, There and Everywhere, She's a Woman, We Can Work It Out, Paperback Writer etc. etc. This does not appear even handed to me and Anthology 1 and 3 are no better from what recall. 1."Real Love" (John Lennon) – 3:54 Lennon demo recorded at The Dakota, Manhattan, New York City, New York, July 1979; Beatles version recorded February 1995 2."Yes It Is" (Takes 2 & 14) – 1:50 Recorded at Abbey Road Studios, London, England, 16 February 1965 3."I'm Down" (Take 1) – 2:53 Recorded at Abbey Road Studios, London, England, 14 June 1965 4."You've Got to Hide Your Love Away" (Takes 1, 2 & 5) (Mono) – 2:45 5."If You've Got Trouble" (Take 1) – 2:48 Tracks 4-5 recorded at Abbey Road Studios, London, England, 18 February 1965 6."That Means a Lot" (Take 1) – 2:27 Recorded at Abbey Road Studios, London, England, 20 February 1965 7."Yesterday" (Take 1) – 2:34 Recorded at Abbey Road Studios, London, England, 14 June 1965 8."It's Only Love" (Takes 2 & 3) (Mono) – 1:59 Recorded at Abbey Road Studios, London, England, 15 June 1965 9."I Feel Fine" (Mono) – 2:16 10."Ticket to Ride" (Mono) – 2:45 11."Yesterday" (Mono) – 2:43 12."Help!" (Mono) – 2:55 Tracks 9-12 recorded live at ABC Theatre, Blackpool, Lancashire, England, 1 August 1965 for the Blackpool Night Out television broadcast 13."Everybody's Trying to Be My Baby" (Carl Perkins) (Mono) – 2:45 Recorded live at Shea Stadium, New York City, New York, 15 August 1965 14."Norwegian Wood (This Bird Has Flown)" (Take 1) – 1:59 Recorded at Abbey Road Studios, London, England, 12 October 1965 15."I'm Looking Through You" (Take 1) – 2:54 Recorded at Abbey Road Studios, London, England, 24 October 1965 16."12-Bar Original" (Edited Take 2) (Lennon, Paul McCartney, George Harrison, Richard Starkey) – 2:55 Recorded at Abbey Road Studios, London, England, 4 November 1965 17."Tomorrow Never Knows" (Take 1) – 3:14 Recorded at Abbey Road Studios, London, England, 6 April 1966 18."Got to Get You into My Life" (Take 5) (Mono) – 2:54 Recorded at Abbey Road Studios, London, England, 7 April 1966 19."And Your Bird Can Sing" (Take 2) – 2:13 Recorded at Abbey Road Studios, London, England, 20 April 1966 20."Taxman" (Take 11) (Harrison) – 2:32 Recorded at Abbey Road Studios, London, England, 21 April 1966 21."Eleanor Rigby" (Take 14) – 2:06 Backing string section without vocals; recorded at Abbey Road Studios, London, England, 28 April 1966 22."I'm Only Sleeping" (Rehearsal) (Mono) – 0:41 23."I'm Only Sleeping" (Take 1) (Mono) – 2:59 Tracks 22-23 recorded at Abbey Road Studios, London, England, 29 April 1966 24."Rock and Roll Music" (Chuck Berry) (Mono) – 1:39 25."She's a Woman" (Mono) – 2:55 Tracks 24-25 recorded live at Nippon Budokan Hall, Tokyo, Japan, 30 June 1966 Disc two[edit] 1."Strawberry Fields Forever" (Demo sequence) (Mono) – 1:42 Lennon demo recorded at Kenwood, Weybridge, Surrey, England, November 1966 2."Strawberry Fields Forever" (Take 1) – 2:35 Recorded at Abbey Road Studios, London, England, 24 November 1966 3."Strawberry Fields Forever" (Take 7 and edit piece) (Mono) – 4:14 Full take of song used for intro and first verse - recorded at Abbey Road Studios, London, England, 29 November and 9 December 1966 4."Penny Lane" (Take 9 horn overdub) – 3:13 Composite of takes recorded at Abbey Road Studios, London, England, 29 December 1966 – 17 January 1967 5."A Day in the Life" (Takes 1, 2, 6 & orchestra) – 5:05 Basic track of master version without "psychedelic" overdubs - composite of takes recorded at Abbey Road Studios, London, England, 19–20 January and 10 February 1967 6."Good Morning Good Morning" (Take 8) – 2:40 Composite of takes recorded at Abbey Road Studios, London, England, 8 & 16 February 1967 7."Only a Northern Song" (Takes 3 & 12) (Harrison) – 2:44 Composite of takes recorded at Abbey Road Studios, London, England, 13–14 February and 20 April 1967 8."Being for the Benefit of Mr. Kite!" (Takes 1 & 2) – 1:05 9."Being for the Benefit of Mr. Kite!" (Take 7 & effects tape) – 2:34 Tracks 8-9 composite of takes recorded at Abbey Road Studios, London, England, 17 & 20 February 1967 10."Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds" (Takes 6, 7 & 8) – 3:06 Composite of takes recorded at Abbey Road Studios, London, England, 1–2 March 1967 11."Within You Without You" (Harrison) – 5:27 Instrumental backing track; composite of takes recorded at Abbey Road Studios, London, England, 15 March–3 April 1967 12."Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band (Reprise)" (Take 5) (Mono) – 1:27 Recorded at Abbey Road Studios, London, England, 1 April 1967 13."You Know My Name (Look Up the Number)" – 5:43 Composite of takes recorded at Abbey Road Studios, London, England, 17 May 1967 – 30 April 1969 14."I Am the Walrus" (Take 16) – 4:02 Basic track of master version without "psychedelic" overdubs - recorded at Abbey Road Studios, London, England, 5 September 1967 15."The Fool on the Hill" (Mono) – 2:48 McCartney demo recorded at Abbey Road Studios, London, England, 6 September 1967 16."Your Mother Should Know" (Take 27) – 3:02 Recorded at Abbey Road Studios, London, England, 16 September 1967 17."The Fool on the Hill" (Take 4) – 3:45 Recorded at Abbey Road Studios, London, England, 25 September 1967 18."Hello, Goodbye" (Take 16 and overdubs) – 3:18 Composite of takes recorded at Abbey Road Studios, London, England, 2 & 19 October 1967 19."Lady Madonna" (Takes 3 & 4) – 2:22 Composite of takes recorded at Abbey Road Studios, London, England, 3 & 6 February 1968 20."Across the Universe" (Take 2) – 3:29 Recorded at Abbey Road Studios, London, England, 4 February 1968 This has nothing to do with Lewisohn. And everything to do with Paul's imput. John was dead and Yoko could not have been responsible for what tracks appeared on Anthology.
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lowbasso
A Hard Day's Knight
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Paul Lied
Sept 1, 2016 21:33:29 GMT -5
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Post by lowbasso on Sept 1, 2016 21:33:29 GMT -5
I have always felt that Lewisohn goes out of his way to be non-partisan: the information he presents comes across as reportage rather than opinion. This is part of review of Lewisohn's book The Beatles – All These Years: Volume One: Tune In "For all the new light that’s cast here, the overriding view is that Lennon was the driving force of the group. If anything, this “lone ranger… always flat broke and on the scrounge” emerges even more dominant than previously assumed. By contrast, Paul’s doe-eyed reputation takes a knock. Arch rival Stu Sutcliffe writes home that everyone hated him, and there is evidence that the predominant attitude was “I liked Paul but I wasn’t big on him”. Paul is said to have displayed a ruthless streak as evidenced in the ousting of Pete Best, a drawn-out process that makes for painful reading." Sounds rather biased to me. Sure because you are biased yourself. But to me it appears to be based on facts and artifacts, not on opinion.
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Post by vectisfabber on Sept 2, 2016 5:21:29 GMT -5
Lewisohn had ultimate control over this He even admitted it. Lewisohn having ultimate control over which songs went on Anthology is not an allegation I have heard before, although I have read a moderate amount about the horse-trading between the Lennon/McCartney/Harrison camps over what got included, what got dropped. I would be interested in learning the source for the Lewisohn allegation. And welcome back - I meant to say, but forgot. You've been missed!
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Post by ReturnToPepperland on Sept 2, 2016 11:42:49 GMT -5
Lewisohn had ultimate control over this He even admitted it. Lewisohn having ultimate control over which songs went on Anthology is not an allegation I have heard before, although I have read a moderate amount about the horse-trading between the Lennon/McCartney/Harrison camps over what got included, what got dropped. I would be interested in learning the source for the Lewisohn allegation. And welcome back - I meant to say, but forgot. You've been missed! Thanks for the welcome back. As I understand the four camps determined which songs were eligible for inclusion and Lewisohn chose among those. They did not include every song that was green-lighted. There was just not enough room on the three volumes. They had wanted to do an Anthology 4 (perfect symmetry) but when George soured on continuing with the Now and Then song it never happened. They certainly had enough material for a fourth volume. And you know how many times in the past Paul has talked about doing another volume and also finishing Now and Then. He was trying to have his songs included that were missed the first time around! Paul recently said they have enough interesting material from the between song banter.
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Post by ReturnToPepperland on Sept 2, 2016 12:11:11 GMT -5
This is part of review of Lewisohn's book The Beatles – All These Years: Volume One: Tune In "For all the new light that’s cast here, the overriding view is that Lennon was the driving force of the group. If anything, this “lone ranger… always flat broke and on the scrounge” emerges even more dominant than previously assumed. By contrast, Paul’s doe-eyed reputation takes a knock. Arch rival Stu Sutcliffe writes home that everyone hated Paul, and there is evidence that the predominant attitude was “I liked Paul but I wasn’t big on him”. Paul is said to have displayed a ruthless streak as evidenced in the ousting of Pete Best, a drawn-out process that makes for painful reading." Sounds rather biased to me. But RTP, this was how it was at that time period. Now, if Mark Lewisohn is still writing that Lennon was the driving force of the group during 1967 - 1970, I think you would have a legitimate gripe. You make a good point, Joe. I think the success of the song Yesterday was a sea change for the Beatles. After its success beginning in September, 1965, just after they had finished Rubber Soul, Paul became the dominant force. Even before then as an ersatz producer and arranger with George Martin, Paul was more prominent than many realize. I hope that is how Lewisohn's later volume(s) progress, but I won't hold my breath. Look how things changed after Yesterday. Paul sang lead on both sides of their next single (We Can Work It Out and Day Tripper), he had the most played and most famous song from Rubber Soul (Michelle) and then had the next major release single A side with Paperback Writer, and dominated Revolver and subsequent albums, scored both sides of the next single Yellow Submarine/Eleanor Rigby and many A-sides after that. John always referred to the later albums as Paul albums especially Sgt. Pepper, the White Album and Abbey Road. Magical Mystery Tour and Let It Be were really no different.
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Post by ReturnToPepperland on Sept 2, 2016 12:28:35 GMT -5
Paul lies everytime he talks about who gets what credit in the Lennon/McCartney Catalogue. How does he sleep at night I wonder.... Paul has defiantly replied: "Quite well, thank you" with regard to the HDYS question... but not realizing that this is the whole point. Yes, he seems to sleep well... but how can he, how is he able to ?? Really?! So dramatic. They were a songwriting team that worked on and composed their songs together in the same room in front of each other for most of the time they were composing as a team. And when that was not the case at least each one would review the others song to see if further changes could be made to improve them. If Paul says he assisted with the song Help, what he is pointing out that he came up with the intro to the song "Help you know I neen somebody, not just anybody, you know I need someone, help..." and Paul wrote the counter melody which is sung by Paul and George. Now most everyone especially lowbasso will say John said (or left the impression) that Help! was his song, he never mentioned Paul. Well is it a possibility that John has been involved in some revisionism? Why is it that it is always Paul who is wrong? There are many instances where John underplays Paul's contribution to his songs (There's A Place, I'm Happy Just to Dance with You etc) and where he overplays his contribution to Paul's songs (Eleanor Rigby, in fact he claimed Two of Us for himself when it was Paul's song! Isn't that revisionism?
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markc
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Post by markc on Sept 2, 2016 13:03:39 GMT -5
I find it hard to believe that Lewisohn could decide anything against the wishes of any one Beatle or Yoko.
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Post by ReturnToPepperland on Sept 2, 2016 16:46:24 GMT -5
I find it hard to believe that Lewisohn could decide anything against the wishes of any one Beatle or Yoko. Again, all the tracks were approved. Its some of the approved tracks that perhaps did not get on those three albums that are in question. I did not say he put tracks on that were not approved.
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Sept 2, 2016 18:21:22 GMT -5
They were a songwriting team that worked on and composed their songs together in the same room in front of each other for most of the time they were composing as a team. And when that was not the case at least each one would review the others song to see if further changes could be made to improve them. Of course, but I can't help but wonder what you would be thinking today if Paul had died in 1980, and John in the 21st Century was alive and always coming up with new "parts" or "suggestions" he'd supposedly written or taking credit made for different songs we'd previously always associated with Paul? The main thing is, John said what he said with Paul alive and always able to disagree. With McCartney, he comes up with these new revelations all the time, with John not around any longer to disagree. No need to be so concerned. This is not the 1980s anymore, RTP. Paul is no longer the poor guy who is forever lost in John's shadow. John has been deceased for nearly 36 years in 2016, and in the 21st Century it's John Lennon who has become majorly marginalized and reduced under Paul's greatness. It's as if Lennon was just Paul's muse or sidekick, his errand boy. What is even more astounding to me is that all the biggest "Paul diehards" (for lack of a better term) like yourself are still harboring some kind of delusion that John is still stealing all of Paul's thunder, when in reality it is now completely reversed! I know, because even I -- a huge Lennon fan -- am starting to buy into some of this and am becoming brainwashed. No, really... I mean that! After Lennon has been gone for nearly 40 years now, and with Paul so active and prominent everywhere, and so many new generations now growing up with him -- even *I* am "drinking the Kool-Aid" ! I have to keep reminding myself that John could write good songs just like Paul, that he could be a musical genius just like Paul... because the tide has now swung so completely in Paul's favor. So what I'm asking is, how much credit do Paul diehards want him to have? How much unconditional and never-ending praise? Is there ever ANY time where John can have anything over Paul anymore? Ever?
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Sept 2, 2016 18:39:10 GMT -5
But RTP, this was how it was at that time period. Now, if Mark Lewisohn is still writing that Lennon was the driving force of the group during 1967 - 1970, I think you would have a legitimate gripe. You make a good point, Joe. I think the success of the song Yesterday was a sea change for the Beatles. After its success beginning in September, 1965, just after they had finished Rubber Soul, Paul became the dominant force. Even before then as an ersatz producer and arranger with George Martin, Paul was more prominent than many realize. I hope that is how Lewisohn's later volume(s) progress, but I won't hold my breath.. I think Mark Lewisohn has been amazing with his first volume. It's obvious that John was very much the leader in these earliest years, so I don't understand the problem. Mark is interested in providing the TRUE story, and he is taking every precaution and leaving no stone unturned in order to be as accurate as possible. I know the real Paul diehards want everything to be glowing and rosy and in Macca's favor all the time, but he is human and if some detail here or there dents it, or casts Paul in an unflattering light in some matter -- then so be it. Lewisohn did not pull any punches in roasting Lennon and painting him as a bully at times, and so forth. I know already just from TUNE IN that I realize that Paul was not very nice to Stuart Sutcliffe, and that Paul was kind of unprofessional in how he played 'prima donna' by making Brian Epsetin wait, and deliberately being late for their early meetings (which Brian himself had already explained in at least one incident, in his A CELLARFUL OF NOISE book).
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Post by ReturnToPepperland on Sept 2, 2016 19:26:11 GMT -5
They were a songwriting team that worked on and composed their songs together in the same room in front of each other for most of the time they were composing as a team. And when that was not the case at least each one would review the others song to see if further changes could be made to improve them. Of course, but I can't help but wonder what you would be thinking today if Paul had died in 1980, and John in the 21st Century was alive and always coming up with new "parts" or "suggestions" he'd supposedly written or taking credit made for different songs we'd previously always associated with Paul? The main thing is, John said what he said with Paul alive and always able to disagree. With McCartney, he comes up with these new revelations all the time, with John not around any longer to disagree. No need to be so concerned. This is not the 1980s anymore, RTP. Paul is no longer the poor guy who is forever lost in John's shadow. John has been deceased for nearly 36 years in 2016, and in the 21st Century it's John Lennon who has become majorly marginalized and reduced under Paul's greatness. It's as if Lennon was just Paul's muse or sidekick, his errand boy. What is even more astounding to me is that all the biggest "Paul diehards" (for lack of a better term) like yourself are still harboring some kind of delusion that John is still stealing all of Paul's thunder, when in reality it is now completely reversed! I know, because even I -- a huge Lennon fan -- am starting to buy into some of this and am becoming brainwashed. No, really... I mean that! After Lennon has been gone for nearly 40 years now, and with Paul so active and prominent everywhere, and so many new generations now growing up with him -- even *I* am "drinking the Kool-Aid" ! I have to keep reminding myself that John could write good songs just like Paul, that he could be a musical genius just like Paul... because the tide has now swung so completely in Paul's favor. So what I'm asking is, how much credit do Paul diehards want him to have? How much unconditional and never-ending praise? Is there ever ANY time where John can have anything over Paul anymore? Ever? You make another salient point. I suppose things have changed from thst day I first heard of John's death back when I was a college junior at U of M (Michigan of course). John's death and contribution to the group was the talk of the campus and all over TV of course. It was sad for Beatles and Lennon fans like myself but also brutal for McCartney fans as Paul was reduced to a bit player. But its no longer the 1980's as you say and the young people seem to have a different outlook on the Beatles. Its been a gradual change and so much so that you don't always notice it until you see Paul's audiences with so many young people. There will continue to be the Lennon hard liners who think he was the Beatles, but that is fading into a more egalitarian view in general.
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Post by ReturnToPepperland on Sept 2, 2016 21:15:39 GMT -5
I found the following information from 2014. It looks like it is more in Paul's favor now as far as the general public is concerned.
Fifty years after The Beatles landed on U.S. soil and appeared on "The Ed Sullivan Show," Beatlemania appears to be alive and well in America.
According to a CBS News poll, 75 percent of Americans say they like the Beatles (at least a little), including almost four in 10 who like them a lot. Only 15 percent of Americans say they dislike the Fab Four.
Those between the ages of 55 and 64, who would have been teenagers in the first years of the British invasion, are especially fond of The Beatles -- nine out of 10.
And who is America's favorite Beatle? Paul McCartney ranked highest, at 35 percent; following by John Lennon (29%), Ringo Starr (11%), and George Harrison (8%) and the balance no preference. As a percent of those who had a preference that translates to Paul McCartney at 42 percent; following by John Lennon (35%), Ringo Starr (13%), and George Harrison (10%).
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Post by ReturnToPepperland on Sept 2, 2016 21:37:37 GMT -5
But RTP, Paul was alive to veto or promote his songs on the Anthologies. Plus, John wrote a lot of songs in the early years (look at the AHDN album) and is famous for not knowing what the finished song should sound like. Whereas Paul knew how his finished songs should sound (down to George's solo). Perhaps this led to more unused or unfinished John takes an demos. A prime example is SFF, and he mentioned it in his last interviews in 1980. Good point, might have something there. but SFF was a bit of an outlier--not typical.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2016 5:22:29 GMT -5
Paul lies everytime he talks about who gets what credit in the Lennon/McCartney Catalogue. How does he sleep at night I wonder.... Oh then I suppose you were there and you know better. paulsbass, oh i mean RTP, haven't read anything from you on here for ages. Good to see you haven't tired of defending the revisionist.
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Sept 3, 2016 5:27:42 GMT -5
I found the following information from 2014. It looks like it is more in Paul's favor now as far as the general public is concerned. And who is America's favorite Beatle? Paul McCartney ranked highest, at 35 percent; following by John Lennon (29%), Ringo Starr (11%), and George Harrison (8%) and the balance no preference. As a percent of those who had a preference that translates to Paul McCartney at 42 percent; following by John Lennon (35%), Ringo Starr (13%), and George Harrison (10%).
Excellent! So can we finally cease the "Poor Paul gets overshadowed by Martyr John" thing now, hmmm?
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Sept 3, 2016 5:33:47 GMT -5
You make another salient point. I suppose things have changed from thst day I first heard of John's death back when I was a college junior at U of M (Michigan of course). John's death and contribution to the group was the talk of the campus and all over TV of course. It was sad for Beatles and Lennon fans like myself but also brutal for McCartney fans as Paul was reduced to a bit player. But its no longer the 1980's as you say and the young people seem to have a different outlook on the Beatles. Its been a gradual change and so much so that you don't always notice it until you see Paul's audiences with so many young people. There will continue to be the Lennon hard liners who think he was the Beatles, but that is fading into a more egalitarian view in general. I think that not only has Paul come to dominate The Beatles in people's minds, but that John has been pathetically diminished -- both musically, and as a decent person. It's John's character as well as his musical abilities that have taken a beating in recent decades.
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Post by ReturnToPepperland on Sept 3, 2016 7:00:39 GMT -5
Oh then I suppose you were there and you know better. paulsbass, oh i mean RTP, haven't read anything from you on here for ages. Good to see you haven't tired of defending the revisionist. Nice to be back fabfour. This board is a lot of fun to post on and you contribute to that enjoyment.
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Post by debjorgo on Sept 3, 2016 7:36:17 GMT -5
You make another salient point. I suppose things have changed from thst day I first heard of John's death back when I was a college junior at U of M (Michigan of course). John's death and contribution to the group was the talk of the campus and all over TV of course. It was sad for Beatles and Lennon fans like myself but also brutal for McCartney fans as Paul was reduced to a bit player. But its no longer the 1980's as you say and the young people seem to have a different outlook on the Beatles. Its been a gradual change and so much so that you don't always notice it until you see Paul's audiences with so many young people. There will continue to be the Lennon hard liners who think he was the Beatles, but that is fading into a more egalitarian view in general. I think that not only has Paul come to dominate The Beatles in people's minds, but that John has been pathetically diminished -- both musically, and as a decent person. It's John's character as well as his musical abilities that have taken a beating in recent decades. It's kind of ironic too, his character is questioned. John really changed the way the western world thinks of women and the way they are treated by their men and society in general. He made a father's contribution to the household more important. He did this while recognizing his own shortcomings and by changing. Now his early flaws are viewed through the eyes of this changed world and he is condemned for being unenlightened.
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