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Post by ReturnToPepperland on Sept 15, 2016 9:26:22 GMT -5
Bad To Me, a fine song by John, was from the previous year, 1963. I was talking about 1964.
And the only song I left out was All I've Got To Do and that was an oversight.
But I got what you said about stopping at the Hard Day's Night album. It is kind of random but what I was trying to point out was that for the first 20 months of their recording career that the song writing was pretty even and then I acknowledged that that changed with A Hard Day's Night album. And then I talked about that album separately.
Looking at the big picture, you could say that when you extend the timeframe to include most of 1964 and acknowledge that John did sing lead on many of the joint compositions, that John stood out more in that point.
But then immediately after AHDN at the end of 1964, shifted. Next I am going to look at their next period, the Beatles For Sale period, where there is another shift.
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Post by Panther on Sept 15, 2016 10:49:22 GMT -5
RTP, has it ever occurred to you to just enjoy The Beatles' music and not obsess over slicing the pie up into who wrote what? I mean, has even a kernel of this thought ever entered your conscious mind?
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Post by ReturnToPepperland on Sept 15, 2016 16:46:48 GMT -5
RTP, has it ever occurred to you to just enjoy The Beatles' music and not obsess over slicing the pie up into who wrote what? I mean, has even a kernel of this thought ever entered your conscious mind? Yes I have thought of that and I do enjoy all their music. I think within the Beatles John was as brilliant as Paul and vice versa. I love 99% of the music they made. But I really enjoy looking into the Lennon/McCartney songwriting team. For example, the song No Reply. John would have had us believe that it was all his song. But John and Paul disagree about this song. John: "That's my song. Dick James, the publisher, said, 'That's the first complete song you've written where it resolves itself'. You know, with a complete story. It was my version of Silhouettes: I had that image of walking down the street and seeing her silhouetted in the window and not answering the phone." I am always suspicious when John said "that was mine or that was me" because it sometimes turns out not to be the case. The song was offered by John to Tommy Quickly to sing before the Beatles recorded it. I found an interview where Quickly stated that the version on Anthology which was identified as the demo was not actually and that the demo that was sent to him lacked the bridge section. Paul's take on it is as follows: "We wrote 'No Reply' together from an original idea of John's. He started out writing the song having been inspired by the song 'Silhouettes' by the Rays and later covered by Herman's Hermits. As was often the case, when he came to me he didn't have the middle eight (bridge). And some words were added to the last verse during that session. I helped him finish it up." I had always suspected from the musical style that Paul was responsible for the bridge/middle of this song. It is clearly Paul's style and contrasts noticeably from the rest of the song. Also, it was added on when they got together after John started the song. That explains why the demo he gave Quickly did not have the bridge. John had the guts to express his angst, jealousy, mistrust, betrayal and hurt. How many of us, as teens experienced those very things that in hindsight are reductive but at that time were big drama? But as dark as this song is, the middle eight was certainly Paul McCartney. It was uplifting, punchy and I love the whole-band hand claps. The harmonies within the middle eight are certifiably trademark Beatles. I think it was one of the Beatles best early non-singles tunes as I thought about Baby's in Black which has a similar history. My question is why did Lewisohn identify the version of this song on Anthology 1 as a demo? Was he trying to portray that John had written the song completely without any help? This kind of thing is really fascinating to me and it should be of interest to anyone who wants to know the real story of how their songs were composed.
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Post by Panther on Sept 16, 2016 6:10:51 GMT -5
Sorry, Paul's quote does not convince me that he wrote the bridge in "No Reply". Assuming Paul's memory is even correct (which, famously, it almost always isn't), he simply says that John came to him with the basic song started. He doesn't state that he (Paul) wrote the bridge. It's entirely possible, therefore, that John came to Paul with most of the song written, but no bridge yet, and that, after a few tweaks and suggestions from Paul, John (or John and Paul) wrote the bridge.
It is silly to conclude, based on the vague quote above -- by a guy with a notoriously poor memory for details -- that Paul wrote the bridge to 'No Reply'.
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Post by ReturnToPepperland on Sept 16, 2016 14:05:20 GMT -5
Sorry, Paul's quote does not convince me that he wrote the bridge in "No Reply". Assuming Paul's memory is even correct (which, famously, it almost always isn't), he simply says that John came to him with the basic song started. He doesn't state that he (Paul) wrote the bridge. It's entirely possible, therefore, that John came to Paul with most of the song written, but no bridge yet, and that, after a few tweaks and suggestions from Paul, John (or John and Paul) wrote the bridge. It is silly to conclude, based on the vague quote above -- by a guy with a notoriously poor memory for details -- that Paul wrote the bridge to 'No Reply'. I don't think it is silly at all because 1. The style of the bridge is very much Paul's and its style contrasts with the rest of the song. 2. Paul's vocals are prominent in the bridge which often indicates was who was responsible for that part. 3. John gave what he thought was a finished song to Tommy Quickly who turned it down. I think Paul heard the version of the song John came to the writing session with and said it needs more--it needs a middle eight or bridge. 4. The fact that John said "that's mine" is suspicious. Almost every time he said that there is a dispute. Other examples are 'There's A Place', 'Day Tripper' and "I'm Happy Just to Dance With You' to name just three. 5. They often said that when one or the other is stuck on a middle eight or verse the other would come in and complete it. Remember they were a songwriting team especially in those days. Anyone have any thoughts/opinions on Panther's and my exchange on this?
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Post by vectisfabber on Sept 17, 2016 5:59:33 GMT -5
Yes, I have.
I think it doesn't matter. It is a Lennon-McCartney song recorded by The Beatles, and it's not necessary or helpful to dissect it any further than to note that John and Paul appear to disagree as to who did how much and what.
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Post by Panther on Sept 18, 2016 7:47:07 GMT -5
1. The style of the bridge is very much Paul's and its style contrasts with the rest of the song. 2. Paul's vocals are prominent in the bridge which often indicates was who was responsible for that part. First of all, what do you mean "the style of the bridge" is Paul's?? Second, I cannot hear Paul's voice in the bridge at all. I hear John's voice, probably double-tracked, but not Paul. He might be in there, but if he is, it's very low in the mix. 4. The fact that John said "that's mine" is suspicious. Uh-huh. But everything Paul said is correct. (This is the same Paul who thinks George's best Beatles' song was James Taylor's "Something in the Way She Moves".)
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Sept 18, 2016 8:19:26 GMT -5
1. The style of the bridge is very much Paul's and its style contrasts with the rest of the song. 2. Paul's vocals are prominent in the bridge which often indicates was who was responsible for that part. First of all, what do you mean "the style of the bridge" is Paul's?? Second, I cannot hear Paul's voice in the bridge at all. I hear John's voice, probably double-tracked, but not Paul. He might be in there, but if he is, it's very low in the mix. 4. The fact that John said "that's mine" is suspicious. Uh-huh. But everything Paul said is correct. (This is the same Paul who thinks George's best Beatles' song was James Taylor's "Something in the Way She Moves".) I would also like to suggest that when John was going through who wrote what, he often would conclude "That's Me".. "That's Paul".., based on who had the biggest input for that particular song. Not sure how accurate that is, it's just the way I'd always interpreted John's quick explanations. Even with certain McCartney songs he would generally say something such as: "That's Paul's... I might have contributed a line...".
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Post by ReturnToPepperland on Sept 21, 2016 1:18:32 GMT -5
I definitely hear Paul's voice more in the bridge. Anyone else?
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Post by vectisfabber on Sept 21, 2016 3:37:06 GMT -5
Paul takes the high harmony in the bridge, surely?
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Post by John S. Damm on Oct 2, 2016 11:06:07 GMT -5
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Oct 2, 2016 16:12:54 GMT -5
I like the one which says "The Beatles wrote some dark and violent songs". Street cred at last!
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Post by vectisfabber on Oct 3, 2016 10:32:03 GMT -5
I shall be up all night worrying now.
Or, more likely, not.
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