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Post by jimc on Oct 11, 2008 11:06:23 GMT -5
The latest Dylan, Bootleg Series Vol. 8, is excellent. It features alt. versions, outtakes, and live performances from Oh Mercy through Modern Times.
It is a shame, however, that one cannot have the third disc of this material unless the Deluxe book version is purchased for more than $100. That's awful. It reminds of his material on iTunes: there are several great versions of his songs unavailable anywhere else that cannot be had without buying the entire Dylan catalogue.
(I still have refused to re-purchase the George and Paul albums on iTunes to have the bonus tracksavailable there. I'm especially angry at the Harrison estate: I spent a lot of money on the boxed set. Couldn't the iTunes-only tracks have been part of that? The constant fan truly is beaten up in these exchanges, while a casual first-time buyer has the bonus iTunes material that he/she probably doesn't care about. Enough of my rant for the morning.)
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Post by John S. Damm on Oct 11, 2008 11:25:47 GMT -5
Jim, I bought the regular version for $14.99 at Best Buy Thursday, October 9th when I was in Lafayette, Indiana celebrating my wife's birthday. The sticker said it was on sale for $19.99 which I thought was still a great price for two c.d.'s with 70 minutes of music each and the always great book(take a hint Apple!) but the thing rang up to $14.99 plus tax. I didn't stick around to argue.
I haven't opened it yet but it is my treat to myself for tonight(Saturday) after I get all my other stuff done. It looks great.
Yes, the boxset looks handsome(it is very heavy for such a thing) but at the Best Buy I was at it was $154.99, an insane price! I had read it would retail at $110.00 so I was really disappointed to see it $44.99 more. There is probably a larger sized book and the third disc as Jim noted but that is a lot of money. I was lucky to buy the regular version on my wife's birthday(she was blissfully off shopping in a department store for perfume and make-up with birthday money while I was at my "Toys-R-Us," Best Buy!).
Let those of us interested keep an eye out for any deep discounts on this Dylan boxset and give a shout on this Thread just as we did for the deluxe Help! dvd boxset where some of us snagged it for $29.99 off Amazon.com rather than the crappy $119.99 Best Buy has it for, thanks to fabtrick and Steve Marinucci.
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Joseph McCabe
Very Clean
A rebel to his last breath ...
Posts: 912
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Post by Joseph McCabe on Oct 11, 2008 15:52:17 GMT -5
I shake my head at the rank stupidity of "music" companies. I know that if I wait long enough (that is, a couple of weeks post release max: sometimes though, even pre-release) what I want will be available from some obliging music blogger, torrent, etc.
Yes, I know someone has to buy the stuff to begin with. But making it freely available is part of the great warfare against these intolerably greedy bastards, who still don't quite get what's happening.
Don't be ripped off. Don't touch iTunes and their ilk (Fancy paying for compressed music!). Don't buy overpriced CDs and DVDs.
Just gently download: it's guerilla warfare!
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Post by John S. Damm on Oct 11, 2008 16:15:46 GMT -5
I shake my head at the rank stupidity of "music" companies. I know that if I wait long enough (that is, a couple of weeks post release max: sometimes though, even pre-release) what I want will be available from some obliging music blogger, torrent, etc. Yes, I know someone has to buy the stuff to begin with. But making it freely available is part of the great warfare against these intolerably greedy bastards, who still don't quite get what's happening. Don't be ripped off. Don't touch iTunes and their ilk (Fancy paying for compressed music!). Don't buy overpriced CDs and DVDs. Just gently download: it's guerilla warfare! Agreed. If I get my hands on the 3rd disc somehow, I'll share. The regular edition(2 discs) isn't so bad as to price but the boxset is just greedy by Mr. Zimmerman and the record company.
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Post by Beatle Bob on Oct 11, 2008 16:24:36 GMT -5
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Post by jimc on Oct 11, 2008 19:10:54 GMT -5
I shake my head at the rank stupidity of "music" companies. I know that if I wait long enough (that is, a couple of weeks post release max: sometimes though, even pre-release) what I want will be available from some obliging music blogger, torrent, etc. Yes, I know someone has to buy the stuff to begin with. But making it freely available is part of the great warfare against these intolerably greedy bastards, who still don't quite get what's happening. Don't be ripped off. Don't touch iTunes and their ilk (Fancy paying for compressed music!). Don't buy overpriced CDs and DVDs. Just gently download: it's guerilla warfare! Agreed. If I get my hands on the 3rd disc somehow, I'll share. The regular edition(2 discs) isn't so bad as to price but the boxset is just greedy by Mr. Zimmerman and the record company. Yes. If I find it somehow cheaper in Chicago next week, I'll share.
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Oct 12, 2008 5:56:33 GMT -5
No downloading for me - ever. If I want something, I'm buying the CD(s).
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Post by mrjinks on Oct 12, 2008 11:02:14 GMT -5
The BBuy price of $14.99 was their advertised "sale" price last week - Target had it for $13.98.
Remember that many chains (Best Buy incl.) will "price match" if you bring in a competitors ad. Maybe not worth it for $1, but sometimes the savings in travel time, etc. make this significant.
I'm a diehard Dylan fan and was also outraged at the 3cd price. Several days prior to the US release, this came out in Europe. A legit site had the entire 3cd set available for download for the price of 15 Swiss francs - about $13. All I had to do was create a Swiss mailing address (the UN building in Geneva) and work my way through setting up an account on a German-language website (Thanks, Babelfish!!). And I have the content of all 3 cds - legally. Some of the stuff on disc 3 isn't that revelatory, but some of it is quite good.
I'll be checking my pm's later today. ;-)
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Post by John S. Damm on Oct 12, 2008 11:56:31 GMT -5
The BBuy price of $14.99 was their advertised "sale" price last week - Target had it for $13.98. Remember that many chains (Best Buy incl.) will "price match" if you bring in a competitors ad. Maybe not worth it for $1, but sometimes the savings in travel time, etc. make this significant. I'm a diehard Dylan fan and was also outraged at the 3cd price. Several days prior to the US release, this came out in Europe. A legit site had the entire 3cd set available for download for the price of 15 Swiss francs - about $13. All I had to do was create a Swiss mailing address (the UN building in Geneva) and work my way through setting up an account on a German-language website (Thanks, Babelfish!!). And I have the content of all 3 cds - legally. Some of the stuff on disc 3 isn't that revelatory, but some of it is quite good. I'll be checking my pm's later today. ;-) LOL! You'd need an international law expert to download that! I played disc 1 last night after the wife and I watched Iron Man but that meant I didn't start it until 2:00 a.m. and I fell asleep right after song 1. The introduction article in the book by "Ratso" was good and I read that before starting the music so maybe it was 2:15 a.m. before I started. I will try again today after my Colts play.
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geoff
Very Clean
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Post by geoff on Oct 15, 2008 21:03:49 GMT -5
Haven't listened to Bob in several years but I am really curious about the Mississippi out takes....
Still haven't heard Modern Times yet, but heard great things about it.........
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Post by joeyself on Oct 16, 2008 7:31:31 GMT -5
Haven't listened to Bob in several years but I am really curious about the Mississippi out takes.... Still haven't heard Modern Times yet, but heard great things about it......... I like the "Mississippi" outtakes, but this song fascinates me, anyway, given its history. Appearing first on a Sheryl Crow album as an upbeat track, it was jarring how Dylan then did it on LOVE AND THEFT. Oh, as for MODERN TIMES, if you like TIME OUT OF MIND and LOVE AND THEFT, treat yourself to it. I think it's the least of the three, but comfortably in their company. JcS
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2008 7:49:13 GMT -5
I've never been into Bob Dylan..not sure why..maybe it's his voice
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Post by jimc on Oct 16, 2008 13:22:51 GMT -5
Haven't listened to Bob in several years but I am really curious about the Mississippi out takes.... Still haven't heard Modern Times yet, but heard great things about it......... I like the "Mississippi" outtakes, but this song fascinates me, anyway, given its history. Appearing first on a Sheryl Crow album as an upbeat track, it was jarring how Dylan then did it on LOVE AND THEFT. Oh, as for MODERN TIMES, if you like TIME OUT OF MIND and LOVE AND THEFT, treat yourself to it. I think it's the least of the three, but comfortably in their company. JcS I had no idea Sheryl Crow covered Mississippi before Bob released it. Thanks for that info. (But let's not get JSD started on Crow!) Yes, those outtakes on the new set are fun to have. Like you, it's one of my favorite songs. As for Modern Times, it's growing on me. I place it above Time out of Mind now, and just slightly befow Love and Theft, where High Water continues to carry the weight. I saw Dylan a year ago, and that's when my first lukewarm reaction to Modern Times started to change. Hearing several of those songs in person transformed them.
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Post by joeyself on Oct 16, 2008 15:28:06 GMT -5
I had no idea Sheryl Crow covered Mississippi before Bob released it. Thanks for that info. (But let's not get JSD started on Crow!) Yes, those outtakes on the new set are fun to have. Like you, it's one of my favorite songs. As for Modern Times, it's growing on me. I place it above Time out of Mind now, and just slightly befow Love and Theft, where High Water continues to carry the weight. I saw Dylan a year ago, and that's when my first lukewarm reaction to Modern Times started to change. Hearing several of those songs in person transformed them. Jim, Crow's version is on THE GLOBE SESSIONS, if you're looking for it. I can tolerate it because it was the first one I heard, but compared to the LOVE AND THEFT version, it's almost like an Alvin & The Chipmunks take on it. I have never seen Bob in concert. He was in Little Rock (about 2.5 hours away) on a Tuesday night a few weeks ago, but it was an outdoor show and I generally don't go to concerts without good seats. I think it was a general admission deal, so coupled with the distance and having to work the next day, I didn't go. Was the show you saw the one with Elvis Costello on the bill as well? JcS
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Oct 16, 2008 16:01:51 GMT -5
I like Dylan, but as I always say it took awhile for him to grow on me. I could never get past his voice originally but once I came to like what he was saying, then the voice actually worked for me. Nobody sings Dylan like Dylan.
I saw him once in concert at the Jones Beach Theater in New York .. I thought he was terrible, though. I'm just one of those guys who prefers the songs to sound like I recognize them, and these didn't. Plus, Bob never acknowledged the audience even once, which I think is often his routine if I understand correctly. I just didn't like that show at all.
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Post by jimc on Oct 16, 2008 18:06:39 GMT -5
I had no idea Sheryl Crow covered Mississippi before Bob released it. Thanks for that info. (But let's not get JSD started on Crow!) Yes, those outtakes on the new set are fun to have. Like you, it's one of my favorite songs. As for Modern Times, it's growing on me. I place it above Time out of Mind now, and just slightly befow Love and Theft, where High Water continues to carry the weight. I saw Dylan a year ago, and that's when my first lukewarm reaction to Modern Times started to change. Hearing several of those songs in person transformed them. Jim, Crow's version is on THE GLOBE SESSIONS, if you're looking for it. I can tolerate it because it was the first one I heard, but compared to the LOVE AND THEFT version, it's almost like an Alvin & The Chipmunks take on it. I have never seen Bob in concert. He was in Little Rock (about 2.5 hours away) on a Tuesday night a few weeks ago, but it was an outdoor show and I generally don't go to concerts without good seats. I think it was a general admission deal, so coupled with the distance and having to work the next day, I didn't go. Was the show you saw the one with Elvis Costello on the bill as well? JcS Yes, with Elvis Costello in St. Louis. Elvis performed solo (10 songs) -- a great variety of his standards (Red Shoes) and newer material, including at least one of his latest release. Elvis also joined Dylan for an encore of Tears of Rage -- amazing, and I think the only such performance on that tour last fall. I believe there were only four or five nights left at the time, maybe fewer. Hope you can see Dylan sometime. It's worth the drive.
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Post by joeyself on Oct 16, 2008 18:52:39 GMT -5
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Post by John S. Damm on Oct 16, 2008 22:35:33 GMT -5
I love "Mississippi." My favorite is the Love And Theft version but I am really touched by the alternate versions on Tell Tale Signs although I didn't shell out $154.99 to get the 3rd alternate version.
The weird thing is that I own Crow's THE GLOBE SESSIONS so I must have heard her version before Bob's which I so love. I only played that Crow album once or twice though.
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Post by mrjinks on Oct 17, 2008 22:53:47 GMT -5
Bob never acknowledged the audience even once, which I think is often his routine if I understand correctly. I've seen Bob 23 times since in 20 years - usually catching 2-3 shows in one year and then having a few years' wait before the next round of shows. The first time I saw him (Aug '88), and the most recent time I saw him (Aug '08), he didn't say a single word the entire evening. On almost every other show, he'll introduce the band, at a minimum, and say "thank you" at least once. Sometimes I've even heard him tell (really bad) jokes at shows. Like most things related to Dylan, there is no absolute. As soon as you say he won't talk, he will. As soon as you write his career off, he's back. As he himself once said, "he not busy being born ib busy dying". I remember reading an article about him once that compared him with Neil Young, cataloging both of their (many) highs and (many) lows. The point of the article was that they followed their muse(s), and it made their careers much more interesting than those who just push "product". I have to agree.
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Post by Sir Frankie Crisp on Oct 17, 2008 23:20:20 GMT -5
Bob is a remarkable artist whose talent I greatly admire but I'll be damned if I'm paying over $100 for a 3 cd collection of out takes and alternate versions. You'd think some of the executive rubes running the record companies would have seen the light by now but as Bob said "...every man wants what's his but power and greed and corruptible seed seems to be all there is."
Even though the cost for the deluxe version is obscene, concert ticket prices for Dylan remain very reasonable. I'm going to see him in November and I only paid $68 for a seat in the fourteenth row. Neil Young performs in my city two weeks later and is charging $250 for the same seat. Thanks all the same Neil but I'll take a pass.
To my ears Bob is one of the all time great vocalists. His ability to phrase, bend and spin words sideways is a unique talent. Listen to "Groom's Still Waiting at the Altar" or "One More Cup of Coffee" as a prime example. I realize he may not be everyone's cup of tea when it comes to singing but you can't deny his gift as a lyricist. With great respect to Lennon & McCartney, Bob stands alone. No one plumbs the depth of human emotion with such poetic flair – take a look at "My Back Pages", "Idiot Wind" or “Not Dark Yet” as an example. And anyone who can come up with a line like "I'm in love with a woman who don't even appeal to me" (from "Things Have Changed") has got a healthier sense of humour than his critics give him credit for.
If you have the opportunity to see Bob in concert I’d certainly recommend him but be forewarned. As MrJinks said, he’s not a chatty person and doesn’t engage in faux sincerity about how great it is to be in your city. And if you’re looking for him to replicate his recordings on stage, forget it. Dylan rearranges his songs to such a degree that they may be unrecognizable and his set list changes nightly so you never know what to expect. You may witness a truly remarkable performance or you may walk out in frustration. That’s the chance you take. Bob’s parameters are wider than the prairie sky and I love him for that. Dylan's a noble performer that provides endless amounts of joy to Bobcats around the world and I for one hope he keeps on keeping on for many years to come.
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Post by John S. Damm on Oct 18, 2008 12:19:47 GMT -5
Bob is a remarkable artist whose talent I greatly admire but I'll be damned if I'm paying over $100 for a 3 cd collection of out takes and alternate versions. You'd think some of the executive rubes running the record companies would have seen the light by now but as Bob said "...every man wants what's his but power and greed and corruptible seed seems to be all there is." Even though the cost for the deluxe version is obscene, concert ticket prices for Dylan remain very reasonable. I'm going to see him in November and I only paid $68 for a seat in the fourteenth row. Neil Young performs in my city two weeks later and is charging $250 for the same seat. Thanks all the same Neil but I'll take a pass. To my ears Bob is one of the all time great vocalists. His ability to phrase, bend and spin words sideways is a unique talent. Listen to "Groom's Still Waiting at the Altar" or "One More Cup of Coffee" as a prime example. I realize he may not be everyone's cup of tea when it comes to singing but you can't deny his gift as a lyricist. With great respect to Lennon & McCartney, Bob stands alone. No one plumbs the depth of human emotion with such poetic flair – take a look at "My Back Pages", "Idiot Wind" or “Not Dark Yet” as an example. And anyone who can come up with a line like "I'm in love with a woman who don't even appeal to me" (from "Things Have Changed") has got a healthier sense of humour than his critics give him credit for. If you have the opportunity to see Bob in concert I’d certainly recommend him but be forewarned. As MrJinks said, he’s not a chatty person and doesn’t engage in faux sincerity about how great it is to be in your city. And if you’re looking for him to replicate his recordings on stage, forget it. Dylan rearranges his songs to such a degree that they may be unrecognizable and his set list changes nightly so you never know what to expect. You may witness a truly remarkable performance or you may walk out in frustration. That’s the chance you take. Bob’s parameters are wider than the prairie sky and I love him for that. Dylan's a noble performer that provides endless amounts of joy to Bobcats around the world and I for one hope he keeps on keeping on for many years to come. Great post! I have rediscovered The Bootleg Series 1-3 primarily because it contains the sadly regretful version of the aforementioned "Idiot Wind" (as opposed to the official angry version from Blood On The Tracks) thanks to the actual movie soundtrack to the surreal film I'm Not There, a bio if you will on Dylan's many personas. I have always appreciated Dylan's ticket prices and $68.00 almost sounds high to me for Dylan but it is very reasonable compared to others. I have never seen a bad Dylan concert but some have been outstanding like the show he gave at Poplar Creek in Illinois during his tour with Tom Petty in 1986 maybe; his 1988 show in Indy with essentially the SNL house band where Dylan played at the speed of light(and never spoke) but his singing was great as was the band; and in November of 2001 at Terre Haute, Indiana where Dylan was featuring his then wonderful new album, Love And Theft. That was such a good concert that even my ever-cynical wife really enjoyed it and she won't normally let me play Dylan on the car stereo. I like that Dylan doesn't often talk between songs. If only Paul McCartney and Ringo Starr would so follow then there would be more dignity at their shows.
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Post by John S. Damm on Oct 18, 2008 15:45:11 GMT -5
I pulled out Sheryl Crow's The Globe Sessions to hear "Mississippi." Ms. Crow speeds through the lyrics too quickly and we are left with a version with no heart or soul. She could have done a killer version by slowing down the tempo just a bit so I am not being unfair towards her admitted talents.
That is what makes Dylan's Love And Theft version so special: Dylan sounds like a weary old riverboat gambler who makes every line in the song count. There are lines delivered by Bob as weary as a singer can get but then there are places where that spark of optimism fire up again like when he praises everyone who has sailed with him. He also turns lovingly sentimental when talking about dreaming of being back in Rose's bed. And one can feel the absolute sincere regret in Dylan's voice when he sings, "I know your sorry, I'm sorry too."
There is a damn story in every line of this song and that is lost on Ms. Crow in her version as she races through the lyrics, apparently content to just be covering a then unreleased Dylan song with one eye again firmly gazing on the Rock And Roll Hall Of Fame.
Maybe Dylan subsequently released "Mississippi" because he felt that Ms. Crow hadn't captured the spirit of the song. Thank goodness he did!
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Post by mrjinks on Oct 18, 2008 21:09:22 GMT -5
Indeed, that was a great post, SirFrankie... I have always appreciated Dylan's ticket prices and $68.00 almost sounds high to me for Dylan but it is very reasonable compared to others. Bob was $49.50 (general admission) when I saw him on Aug. 31. A great show in abysmal conditions - pouring rain, "thunder on the mountain" (which is where we were), etc...
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Post by joeyself on Oct 18, 2008 22:10:25 GMT -5
Ok, boys and girls, due to the magic of Torrents, I have secured the bonus third disc. If you want to hear it before you lay out that kind of cash, help yourself: "Duncan & Brady" - 3:47 (Unreleased, 1992) www.megaupload.com/?d=MJJ2P81Q"Cold Irons Bound" - 5:57 (Live at Bonnaroo, 2004) www.megaupload.com/?d=JQMVGIDI"Mississippi" - 6:24 (Unreleased version #3, Time Out of Mind) www.megaupload.com/?d=7H0STUXV"Most of the Time" - 5:10 (Alternate version #2, Oh Mercy) www.megaupload.com/?d=DX7E2O1C"Ring Them Bells" - 3:18 (Alternate version, Oh Mercy) www.megaupload.com/?d=NAKAG58M"Things Have Changed" - 5:32 (Live, June 15, 2000, Portland, OR) www.megaupload.com/?d=MEDWAGIO"Red River Shore" - 7:08 (Unreleased version #2, Time Out of Mind) www.megaupload.com/?d=WNTB8J5E"Born in Time" - 4:19 (Unreleased version #2, Oh Mercy) www.megaupload.com/?d=JY2YNS31"Tryin' to Get to Heaven" - 5:10 (Live, October 5, 2000, London, England) www.megaupload.com/?d=M9KUTGFD"Marchin' to the City" - 3:39 (Unreleased version #2, Time Out of Mind) www.megaupload.com/?d=3OIIDORY"Can't Wait" - 7:24 (Alternate version #2, Time Out of Mind) www.megaupload.com/?d=5K2YME82"Mary and the Soldier" - 4:23 (Unreleased, World Gone Wrong) www.megaupload.com/?d=10S4TG2D
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Oct 19, 2008 7:36:04 GMT -5
If you have the opportunity to see Bob in concert I’d certainly recommend him but be forewarned. As MrJinks said, he’s not a chatty person and doesn’t engage in faux sincerity about how great it is to be in your city. And if you’re looking for him to replicate his recordings on stage, forget it. Dylan rearranges his songs to such a degree that they may be unrecognizable and his set list changes nightly so you never know what to expect. You may witness a truly remarkable performance or you may walk out in frustration. That’s the chance you take. Well, I despise faux sincerity and respect Dylan's honesty, but I'm not always so sure that it's faux when a star says it's great to be in your city. But I'm just talking about general "thank you" or "good evening", stuff like that. As for the re-arranging of songs by ANY artist in concert, that's never for me. I actually knew Dylan did this before I went to the show, but this was just to a very weird degree. The thing is, I guess if most of Dylan's fans are steady followers who've seen him countless times already, they'd be wanting and appreciating song changes. But for me, I want LIKE A ROLLING STONE to sound somewhat recognizable! He was on TV in the early '90s doing some crazy song, and it wasn't until much later I realized it was "Masters Of War" (which is a song I like). Sometimes fans will say "if you only want it to sound like the record, then you can always stay home and listen to the record". To this I say no -- the whole point is that the star is right there in front of you IN PERSON, with all the vibes of the live audience, and actualy performing the song the way you know it, in the flesh! A bit different than sitting home listening to the stereo!
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Post by mrjinks on Oct 19, 2008 10:31:31 GMT -5
Ok, boys and girls, due to the magic of Torrents, I have secured the bonus third disc. If you want to hear it before you lay out that kind of cash, help yourself: Heck, Joey, I mentioned back on the first page that I had it, and hinted that I was willing to share! Could have saved yourself some trouble... I just wasn't sure that Steve would approve of having posted links to officially released material here - might put him in an awkward position (?). Or not (?). Steve?
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Post by Steve Marinucci on Oct 19, 2008 11:28:34 GMT -5
Ok, boys and girls, due to the magic of Torrents, I have secured the bonus third disc. If you want to hear it before you lay out that kind of cash, help yourself: Heck, Joey, I mentioned back on the first page that I had it, and hinted that I was willing to share! Could have saved yourself some trouble... I just wasn't sure that Steve would approve of having posted links to officially released material here - might put him in an awkward position (?). Or not (?). Steve? Probably be best if links were sent in pms and not posted. I don't care if it's mentioned -- it's done on other Beatle boards -- and discussion of unreleased material is a regular subject here. But it's probably best not to go beyond that so that no one -- and I'm including you guys too -- don't get into any trouble.
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Post by joeyself on Oct 20, 2008 14:03:45 GMT -5
You can pull my note down if you like. Up to you; the RIAA doesn't scare me. If they sue me, they'll regret it. I'll notice them up for depositions in my office. They'll spend more than they'll ever get!
JcS
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Joseph McCabe
Very Clean
A rebel to his last breath ...
Posts: 912
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Post by Joseph McCabe on Oct 20, 2008 14:49:39 GMT -5
Ok, boys and girls, due to the magic of Torrents, I have secured the bonus third disc. If you want to hear it before you lay out that kind of cash, help yourself: Heck, Joey, I mentioned back on the first page that I had it, and hinted that I was willing to share! Could have saved yourself some trouble... I just wasn't sure that Steve would approve of having posted links to officially released material here - might put him in an awkward position (?). Or not (?). Steve? I've had it for quite a while too. But MUCH more intriguing is this: on the old board (where I posted as Charon), I put up a link where you could get Ringo's Liverpool 8. Steve M removed it very quickly, and did a bit of a tut-tut. Fine, that's his prerogative. But I'm fascinated that Self's post containing the links to the CD3 songs has not been removed as I write. Even if they are removed subsequently, it will have been a bit slow! I love inconsistent behavior. So human!
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