nine
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Post by nine on Apr 10, 2009 10:01:04 GMT -5
What a piece of un-Lennon shit this is.
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Post by sayne on Apr 10, 2009 10:37:25 GMT -5
What a piece of un-Lennon shit this is. Why? I respect that one can say what one wants, but back it up.
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nine
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Post by nine on Apr 10, 2009 10:43:38 GMT -5
I don't think the music is Lennon.
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Post by mikev on Apr 10, 2009 12:00:49 GMT -5
The album as a whole has not aged well. Perhaps NYC is the only playable song. John Sinclair is a nice country rocker but too preachy. Luck of the Irish has a pretty melody but too much information for the non-political music lover. Woman is the...really to me is not on my ipod list. Some good points-but c'mon. I was never a big fan of Lennon preachy songs, including Power to the People. Nor do I like when McCartney does it (Looking for Changes).
I have no objection to using star power to get a point across, including the use of music. Just don't put it on an LP.
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Post by Panther on Apr 10, 2009 12:51:15 GMT -5
I think "Woman is the Nigger of the World" is great! You have to take it as an attention-grabbing politico-statement, of course, but it is a very solid, impressive piece of music. It has one of his great vocals, and for once Elephant's Memory really suits the song.
And, c'mon, you have to remember it was 1972 -- women's rights movements were "in", man. John just reflected the times, as usual.
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Post by John S. Damm on Apr 10, 2009 14:13:44 GMT -5
Lennon and Ono were too clever for their own good in this instance. You cannot play this song on any U.S. campus today or on any radio station or television station. It is not the government trying to block it out but the people.
Whatever Lenono's intentions, it ultimately backfired on them. I defy anyone here to defend this song's use of a certain word in a bi-racial crowd. You will lose.
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Post by sayne on Apr 10, 2009 17:16:11 GMT -5
I don't think the music is Lennon. Oh, okay. That's fair. I think much of John's music in this period was quite weak. I don't know if it was Elephant Memory's style or ability, but I never liked that sound. Now, if some of those songs were played with Eric, Klaus, Ringo, and John alone, maybe they would have worked better for me. Then again, maybe not.
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Post by OldFred on Apr 10, 2009 17:24:40 GMT -5
Lennon and Ono were too clever for their own good in this instance. You cannot play this song on any U.S. campus today or on any radio station or television station. It is not the government trying to block it out but the people. Whatever Lenono's intentions, it ultimately backfired on them. I defy anyone here to defend this song's use of a certain word in a bi-racial crowd. You will lose. You're on the money there. I recall a story from a year or so ago of a feminist group using the song title as part of a protest on a college campus and an African-American group accusing them of racism.
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JMG
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Post by JMG on Apr 10, 2009 18:10:20 GMT -5
Never one of my favorite Lennon songs. 'Some Time In New York City' was NOT one of Lennon's shining moments, IMO. I bought the LP when it first came out but never on CD. The only thing I find interesting about the LP is the cover, but the music is just too topical, too political.
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Joseph McCabe
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A rebel to his last breath ...
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Post by Joseph McCabe on Apr 10, 2009 18:49:26 GMT -5
The WHOLE album is composed and sung with power, passion and commitment by John & Yoko. It is almost totally a product of its times: the causes it champions are not so important now ...
... with the exception of Woman is the Nigger of the World. Atttudes to women have changed, but still, still, it can be argued that she is the nigger of the world. Listen to the lyrics: look at your own woman, look to the east, look to the religions of the world ...
Using "nigger" in this context CANNOT be racist or offensive. Think of film nudity: in some contexts it is wonderful, beautiful, pointed, but in others is merely for cheap effect or pornographic. Surely, surely in this song it is obvious that "nigger" is used to make a considered and important point.
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Joseph McCabe
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Post by Joseph McCabe on Apr 10, 2009 19:01:22 GMT -5
------------------- I defy anyone here to defend this song's use of a certain word in a bi-racial crowd. You will lose. No, if the bi-racial (what a term!) crowd consists of intelligent people with their brains engaged, they will see the point the phrase and the song is trying to make. Remember, the word "nigger" itself is not offensive. It's contextual meaning and intent may or may not be. The best example I can think of is "cunt". In most circles, it is extremely offensive to call someone a cunt. But two lovers could use the word as an expression of love or passion. Mellors in Lady Chatterly's Lover uses it in this way. Context is everything! I have used the word "cunt" (and "nigger" also) in the classroom with teenagers: not as a term of abuse, but to discuss the effect of words in and out of various contexts. No one took any offense ...
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nine
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Post by nine on Apr 10, 2009 21:44:47 GMT -5
I don't think the music is Lennon. I don't know if it was Elephant Memory's style or ability, but I never liked that sound. Now, if some of those songs were played with Eric, Klaus, Ringo, and John alone, maybe they would have worked better for me. Then again, maybe not. Perhaps that's tru, perhaps Klaus etc could have made this better sounding. My biggest beef about this song is the music and melody and bloody sax. It's horrible. It doesn't sound like Lennon. I think the only reason it's included on best of's is because of the controversy. It certainly wouldn't be because its the sort of tune you hum in the shower.
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Post by John S. Damm on Apr 10, 2009 23:09:00 GMT -5
------------------- I defy anyone here to defend this song's use of a certain word in a bi-racial crowd. You will lose. No, if the bi-racial (what a term!) crowd consists of intelligent people with their brains engaged, they will see the point the phrase and the song is trying to make. Remember, the word "nigger" itself is not offensive. It's contextual meaning and intent may or may not be. The best example I can think of is "cunt". In most circles, it is extremely offensive to call someone a cunt. But two lovers could use the word as an expression of love or passion. Mellors in Lady Chatterly's Lover uses it in this way. Context is everything! I have used the word "cunt" (and "nigger" also) in the classroom with teenagers: not as a term of abuse, but to discuss the effect of words in and out of various contexts. No one took any offense ... I don't think that I disagree with your point. Yet John's song is a big bomb in the U.S. with African Americans today. They too understand the exact point John is trying to make but that word is not to be so precociously used by someone who hasn't walked in their shoes. John and Yoko were comparing the historical plight of an oppressed and too often brutalized race with some college educated women(most often white) in the 60's and early 70's who were indeed unjustly denied equal pay or the right to give communion, etc., but certainly not subjected to the centuries of brutalization as the black race has, both its men and women. I just think it is a poor analogy or comparison.
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Post by sayne on Apr 11, 2009 0:48:02 GMT -5
. . . John and Yoko were comparing the historical plight of an oppressed and too often brutalized race with some college educated women(most often white) in the 60's and early 70's who were indeed unjustly denied equal pay or the right to give communion, etc., but certainly not subjected to the centuries of brutalization as the black race has, both its men and women. I just think it is a poor analogy or comparison. I think that is vastly limiting the scope of what John and Yoko were writing about. It went far beyond the Women's Movement of the 60s and 70s. Historically, it was not a poor analogy or comparison, especially if one takes in consideration the following: how women are treated in Afghanistan, clitorectomies, sacrificial virgins, baby boys being valued over baby girls in many cultures, "chastity belts", mostly women being burned as witches, etc. The use of language, the creation of mythologies (Eve, Lillith, Pandora . . .), the abortion/choice debate, Henry the VIII, the early treatment of women's illnessess, etc all evidence the second class status of women. In the movie The Commitments, didn't someone refer to the Irish as the "niggers" of Europe? George Carlin once said that there are no bad words. Bad thoughts - yes. Bad intentions - sure. But, not bad words. Context is everything. With that as my context, I get the use of the word "nigger" in John and Yoko's song.
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Apr 11, 2009 5:47:04 GMT -5
In the movie The Commitments, didn't someone refer to the Irish as the "niggers" of Europe? George Carlin once said that there are no bad words. Bad thoughts - yes. Bad intentions - sure. But, not bad words. Context is everything. With that as my context, I get the use of the word "nigger" in John and Yoko's song. Sayne, did you really write this? Congratulations!
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Apr 11, 2009 5:49:44 GMT -5
I think "Woman is the Nigger of the World" is great! You have to take it as an attention-grabbing politico-statement, of course, but it is a very solid, impressive piece of music. It has one of his great vocals, and for once Elephant's Memory really suits the song. And, c'mon, you have to remember it was 1972 -- women's rights movements were "in", man. John just reflected the times, as usual. I completely agree.
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Apr 11, 2009 5:54:38 GMT -5
Whatever Lenono's intentions, it ultimately backfired on them. I defy anyone here to defend this song's use of a certain word in a bi-racial crowd. You will lose. But I wouldn't want to conclude that "all" people in the crowd would take offense. I'd like to give some of them, black or white, the benefit of the doubt where some individuals would be intelligent enough to understand: "Oh, I see -- they're on OUR side! They're not calling black people 'nigger', they're protesting that women are treated like they're the modern day equivalent of slaves...!" It's a really good and rousing song.
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Post by pbirdchat on Apr 11, 2009 17:25:10 GMT -5
My Woman Is the Nigger Of The World Story:
In the mid 80's after college, I worked for a spell in the electronics department of Famous Barr. I had just gotten a bootleg of John Lennon and Elephants Memory rehearsals for the Madison Square Garden concert of 72'. The album was on BLACKBIRD records and had 2 blackbirds dancing on the label like a couple of Al Jolson's.
One day when it was really slow, I put the album on one of the turn tables and stepped up on a ladder and began stocking some merchandise. About this time, A black man came into the department to look around. All of a sudden it occurs to me that Women Is The Nigger Of The World was the song being played. As the man got closer to the stereo, he began to notice the lyrics being sung! He looked annoyed as he bent down to see what was playing when he noticed the Blackbird record label. He fired me a dirty look and called me a Racist before he huffed out. I tried to explain the song to him but he was out of the department before I could get two sentences together. He was not amused and I was a racist!
Darren D'Rito
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Apr 12, 2009 5:28:22 GMT -5
About this time, A black man came into the department to look around. All of a sudden it occurs to me that Women Is The Nigger Of The World was the song being played. As the man got closer to the stereo, he began to notice the lyrics being sung! He looked annoyed as he bent down to see what was playing when he noticed the Blackbird record label. He fired me a dirty look and called me a Racist before he huffed out. Typical. People are so quick to use the "R" label even when they don't know what the hell they're talking about.
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Post by rockstar2866 on Apr 12, 2009 11:58:39 GMT -5
The song is an abrasive statement meant to get a reaction. It isn't very popular, so he probably had no idea what it was about. And to be honest, I'm of the mind that the word should really never be used, especially by a middle-ish age, really rich white guy. His reaction was justified as it was predictable.
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Post by jimc on Apr 12, 2009 15:48:38 GMT -5
My Woman Is the Nigger Of The World Story: In the mid 80's after college, I worked for a spell in the electronics department of Famous Barr. I had just gotten a bootleg of John Lennon and Elephants Memory rehearsals for the Madison Square Garden concert of 72'. The album was on BLACKBIRD records and had 2 blackbirds dancing on the label like a couple of Al Jolson's. One day when it was really slow, I put the album on one of the turn tables and stepped up on a ladder and began stocking some merchandise. About this time, A black man came into the department to look around. All of a sudden it occurs to me that Women Is The Nigger Of The World was the song being played. As the man got closer to the stereo, he began to notice the lyrics being sung! He looked annoyed as he bent down to see what was playing when he noticed the Blackbird record label. He fired me a dirty look and called me a Racist before he huffed out. I tried to explain the song to him but he was out of the department before I could get two sentences together. He was not amused and I was a racist! Darren D'Rito I'm guessing he never complained to management? I had a similar job in college and know what you mean about slow days. But do you think your boss would have fired you had he complained? By the way, did the Blackbird label look unusual, or was it just the "Black" in it you were talking about? I didn't understand that. JoeK, what is "typical" about this? A guy walks in Famous Barr in the 1980s and hears "Nigger" in a song, white kid (?) stocking merchandise -- I think it sounds about right that he's going to assume the worst.
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nine
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Post by nine on Apr 12, 2009 20:37:26 GMT -5
especially by a middle-ish age, really rich white guy. Middle age-ish? 32? That must make me ancient!!!!
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Post by pbirdchat on Apr 13, 2009 7:56:44 GMT -5
jimc,
The label of the album I was playing that day had two cartoon blackbirds or magpies dressed in tuxedos with musical notes coming out of their mouths. But if I remember correctly, they were drawn to look kind of like black face Al Jolson characters.
I never heard from management and doubt they would have fired me.
Later that year, the four guys from the Beatles tribute band 1964 came into the store. They were dressed in their Beatles gear and one of the ladies in the housewares called me over and introduced me to them.
Even though they were regular guys, I was still nervous meeting "The Beatles".
Darren D'Rito
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Post by jimc on Apr 13, 2009 8:54:04 GMT -5
jimc, The label of the album I was playing that day had two cartoon blackbirds or magpies dressed in tuxedos with musical notes coming out of their mouths. But if I remember correctly, they were drawn to look kind of like black face Al Jolson characters. I never heard from management and doubt they would have fired me. Later that year, the four guys from the Beatles tribute band 1964 came into the store. They were dressed in their Beatles gear and one of the ladies in the housewares called me over and introduced me to them. Even though they were regular guys, I was still nervous meeting "The Beatles". Darren D'Rito Thanks. I'd never heard of that label. In a perfect world, the offended man would have engaged you in a discussion about the music, but, really, from the way you've described the situation, his reaction doesn't seem unusual.
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Apr 13, 2009 16:14:50 GMT -5
What is "typical" is that people often do kneejerk responses and cry "RACIST!!!" even when there's no cause.
I think it's a problem because here's a guy that right away thinks the white kid must be "racist", and the kid isn't even the one singing the song - he's just listening to it, or playing it! If you stop and think about it, perhaps it's the black man in this case who's truly "racist", because he immediately labels the white kid thusly just because he's listening to a song which happens to have the word "nigger" in it. He's wrong about the white kid, but his mind thinks in terms of color and racial prejudice, so that's instantly the conclusion he arrives at.
And the error doesn't end there -- the song itself is not racist, and John and Yoko were actually the farthest thing from being prejudiced against black people! The black man is wrong on both counts here -- about the white kid, and about the singer. That's unfortunate.
But would it be wrong for a white man to "assume the worst" over lyrics in a song sung by a black rapper, if a black kid was stocking shelves while listening to it?
Right. It doesn't seem unusual; it seems usual, or typical.
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Post by Steve Marinucci on Apr 13, 2009 16:17:04 GMT -5
I deleted a post by chokingsmoker for the racial jokes. I will not allow that. This thread is touchy enough as it is. Let's keep it on topic. Thanks.
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Apr 13, 2009 16:19:11 GMT -5
Not to nitpick, Steve, but why isn't this in the Lennon folder?
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Apr 13, 2009 16:22:40 GMT -5
The song is an abrasive statement meant to get a reaction. Yes, but the proper reaction should be to empathize with the plight of women.
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Post by OldFred on Apr 13, 2009 16:43:34 GMT -5
Not to nitpick, Steve, but why isn't this in the Lennon folder? I second that emotion.
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Post by jimc on Apr 13, 2009 22:55:51 GMT -5
What is "typical" is that people often do kneejerk responses and cry "RACIST!!!" even when there's no cause. I think it's a problem because here's a guy that right away thinks the white kid must be "racist", and the kid isn't even the one singing the song - he's just listening to it, or playing it! If you stop and think about it, perhaps it's the black man in this case who's truly "racist", because he immediately labels the white kid thusly just because he's listening to a song which happens to have the word "nigger" in it. He's wrong about the white kid, but his mind thinks in terms of color and racial prejudice, so that's instantly the conclusion he arrives at. And the error doesn't end there -- the song itself is not racist, and John and Yoko were actually the farthest thing from being prejudiced against black people! The black man is wrong on both counts here -- about the white kid, and about the singer. That's unfortunate. But would it be wrong for a white man to "assume the worst" over lyrics in a song sung by a black rapper, if a black kid was stocking shelves while listening to it? Right. It doesn't seem unusual; it seems usual, or typical. Again, this was not some coffee shop or someone's living room where one might feel comfortable discussing these lyrics or the record label. This was Famous Barr, a chain department store. Put yourself in the guy's shoes. This is just not a song that a white person can throw out in the public square and expect blacks to sit down and listen to rationalizations about its meaning. Darren, I'd be interested in knowing more about the setting: what city? how many blacks employed in the store? It really is a fascinating story. As for your last comment, Joe: there's no equivalent word a black could use toward a white person -- no word carries similar connotations.
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