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Post by Panther on Mar 14, 2012 7:21:49 GMT -5
It is noticeable that John's "heathier" moments seem to be when he was not with Yoko. He immediately skinnied-up (probably due to heroin) in 1969 after they got together. He was chubbier around 71-72, but still thin. In 1974, he seemed to be really healthy and strong. And everyone talks about how he found himself again when he sailed to Bermuda in 1980, leaving Yoko at home. I tend to think, however, that it was more the case of a rich, slightly lazy guy with too much time on his hands finally doing something active with his life.
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Post by John S. Damm on Mar 14, 2012 9:33:55 GMT -5
Although John was at his happiest it appears during the DF sessions - he sure as hell didn't look healthy. There's a new book about to come out that discusses Yoko's influence over his diets, food and eating habits. Yoko's influence was definitely way too influential in this area if his life, he looked decimated... I don't know what Yoko's role was in John's diet but wasn't it reported that John himself thought that he looked emaciated and ordered videotape done in the studio during DF recordings destroyed? What a shame if true. I'd love to have more footage of John in action from 1980, too thin or not. John was concerned with his weight as he blasts himself in Playboy about his "fat Elvis" period of 1965 which I think was one of his coolest eras appearance wise. We all are like that though. Most people want to be thinner and worry about that stuff.
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Post by acebackwords on Mar 14, 2012 11:33:05 GMT -5
Its easy (and kinda' fun) to play arm-chair psychologist with John Lennon. He was such a bizarre character. The much-maligned Fred Seaman had a great line. He said he was shocked by how healthy Lennon looked after the Bermuda trip -- it made him realize that John had looked like he was suffering from a degenerative disease the entire time he was holed up at the Dakota.
The guy was obviously a classic obsessive/compulsive (I should know -- takes one to know one). In his journals John obsessively documented every morsel of food he put in his (and Sean's) stomach. He turned into one of those obsessive health freaks where you sense its more inspired by a fear of death than a drive towards health. For awhile he was obsessed with the book Sugar Blues which was yet another of his Next Big Things and he handed out copies to everyone he knew and proselytized against the evils of sugar. Typical of John, he imposed a rigid, almost fanatical, "health" diet on himself in his last years -- I think he starved himself down to about 130 pounds, pretty severe for a guy nearly 6 foot. While at the same time he was chain-smoking cigarettes by the carton, drinking dozens of cups of coffee and tea a day, as well as inhaling massive ammounts of extremely powerful marijuana. So he had a unique concept of health.
Yoko, to her credit, urged John to avoid alcohol and hard drugs, and encouraged him to practise kundalini yoga -- one of the highest spiritual practises in my humble opinion. But whether John ever attained any kind of lasting happiness, and whether Yoko was much of a good influence to anyone who came into her orbit, I really have to wonder.
Also, in response to Panther -- who, like many of us on this board has thought long and hard about the enigma that is John Lennon -- I can never quite figure what period Lennon actually "peaked." His whole life seemed like one non-stop peak to me.
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Post by ursamajor on Mar 14, 2012 17:06:14 GMT -5
I read once where someone commented that John lost his British sense of humour when he hooked up with Yoko. 74'-'75 John looked great. Maybe he should have married May Pang and kept Yoko as his mistress ![:)](//storage.proboards.com/1960644/images/qgYzMnMQuaQueoyTpdvz.png)
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Post by debjorgo on Mar 14, 2012 23:03:06 GMT -5
He should have kept a little fling with Paul on the side.
But Paul says "He never tried anything with me."
Aah, life's full of what ifs.
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Mar 14, 2012 23:07:12 GMT -5
It is noticeable that John's "heathier" moments seem to be when he was not with Yoko. He immediately skinnied-up (probably due to heroin) in 1969 after they got together. He was chubbier around 71-72, but still thin. In 1974, he seemed to be really healthy and strong. And everyone talks about how he found himself again when he sailed to Bermuda in 1980, leaving Yoko at home.. What about his mental health while with Yoko? He was happiest and most content with her, which is obvious. He mellowed out more, grew to respect women and tried to resolve a lot of the more angry attitude of his youth. He was a mental wreck a lot of times in 1974 without Yoko and drinking more heavily than he had since he was a kid. Not a very 'healthy' routine, that. What about John having his "Fat Elvis Period" in 1965 where he was at his somewhat-chubbiest, and hadn't even met Yoko yet...? As for the SUGAR BLUES obsession, let me say that I was very ill from 1984 - 1989, and I discovered after a long time that sugar was a main villain in that. I bought that book and many others on the subject and learned a lot from them, and I was cured and it literally saved my life . So, I think John was probably very healthy in body near the end (though thin). He still smoked and drank coffee, but ate much better.
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Post by debjorgo on Mar 15, 2012 0:09:09 GMT -5
It is noticeable that John's "heathier" moments seem to be when he was not with Yoko. He immediately skinnied-up (probably due to heroin) in 1969 after they got together. He was chubbier around 71-72, but still thin. In 1974, he seemed to be really healthy and strong. And everyone talks about how he found himself again when he sailed to Bermuda in 1980, leaving Yoko at home.. What about his mental health while with Yoko? He was happiest and most content with her, which is obvious. He mellowed out more, grew to respect women and tried to resolve a lot of the more angry attitude of his youth. He was a mental wreck a lot of times in 1974 without Yoko and drinking more heavily than he had since he was a kid. Not a very 'healthy' routine, that. What about John having his "Fat Elvis Period" in 1965 where he was at his somewhat-chubbiest, and hadn't even met Yoko yet...? As for the SUGAR BLUES obsession, let me say that I was very ill from 1984 - 1989, and I discovered after a long time that sugar was a main villain in that. I bought that book and many others on the subject and learned a lot from them, and I was cured and it literally saved my life . So, I think John was probably very healthy in body near the end (though thin). He still smoked and drank coffee, but ate much better. Up to a point, people who are calorie deprived may have a longer life. The defensive mechanisms in the body kick in and start repairing things. This and stem cell research are the key items in the study of life extension. Of course, alcohol, nicotine and bullets may negate any benefits.
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Post by Panther on Mar 15, 2012 7:30:02 GMT -5
What about his mental health while with Yoko? He was happiest and most content with her, which is obvious. He mellowed out more, grew to respect women and tried to resolve a lot of the more angry attitude of his youth. I would agree he was more "content" when with Yoko, based on basic biographical facts that we can trust, but I would hesitate to say "happiest". Emotionally and ideologically, John was sort of a rolling stone, and men of his nature often find it hard to stay vital and energized when tied down in domesticity (I speak from experience). Based on what we can infer from second, third, and fourth-hand biographical accounts, I would guess that John's happiest period was probably around 1961 to 1964. He certainly looked healthy then, he was enjoying the fruits of youthful success, and he often idealized this period later in life.
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andyb
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Post by andyb on Mar 15, 2012 7:45:02 GMT -5
I read once where someone commented that John lost his British sense of humour when he hooked up with Yoko. Didn't really appear that way on the Dick Cavett show I must say.
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Post by John S. Damm on Mar 15, 2012 9:31:57 GMT -5
Emotionally and ideologically, John was sort of a rolling stone, and men of his nature often find it hard to stay vital and energized when tied down in domesticity...... And I pay a therapist a lot of money who won't just get down to that point!! ![:o](//storage.proboards.com/1960644/images/GowCXAvfMToKPZsJREgz.png)
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Mar 15, 2012 16:06:15 GMT -5
I would agree he was more "content" when with Yoko, based on basic biographical facts that we can trust, but I would hesitate to say "happiest". Emotionally and ideologically, John was sort of a rolling stone, and men of his nature often find it hard to stay vital and energized when tied down in domesticity (I speak from experience). Based on what we can infer from second, third, and fourth-hand biographical accounts, I would guess that John's happiest period was probably around 1961 to 1964. He certainly looked healthy then, he was enjoying the fruits of youthful success, and he often idealized this period later in life. I don't understand why not just allow John to decide when he was his happiest. He talked about all of this in interviews throughout his career, and especially those very elated 1980 interviews with the BBC and RKO in the last days of his life, Dec. 1980. And regardless of what we Beatles Fans wished, that happiest period just was not 1961-1964, according to John.
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andyb
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Post by andyb on Mar 15, 2012 17:42:12 GMT -5
I agree Joe but he did look happy 61 - 64. Then again it is hard to really tell.
I don't think he was any more complex than anybody else either. He told you pretty much everything about himself - good and bad, ups and downs, fears etc. He seemed to hide very little, which leads me to think he was the least complex of them all. Doesn't mean he didn't have issues though (as they say in modern parlance).
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Post by Zander on Mar 15, 2012 17:49:27 GMT -5
I read once where someone commented that John lost his British sense of humour when he hooked up with Yoko. Didn't really appear that way on the Dick Cavett show I must say. Yeah - he definitely still had the humour there. Even during the Mike Douglas ones too...
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Post by Panther on Mar 15, 2012 18:07:02 GMT -5
I don't understand why not just allow John to decide when he was his happiest. He talked about all of this in interviews throughout his career, and especially those very elated 1980 interviews with the BBC and RKO in the last days of his life, Dec. 1980. And regardless of what we Beatles Fans wished, that happiest period just was not 1961-1964, according to John. To the "I don't understand", I have an answer: If you're giving press interviews, in general, most public people don't speak the truth. Certainly they don't about intensely personal matters. Then, to compound it further, if you're giving press interviews about an album that's largely about domesticity, and you're trying to sell the album, and your wife and LP-collaborator is sitting next to you throughout the interview, how likely is the interview subject to jump into home-truths and hidden-feelings to a interviewer?
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Mar 15, 2012 18:46:37 GMT -5
To the "I don't understand", I have an answer: If you're giving press interviews, in general, most public people don't speak the truth. Certainly they don't about intensely personal matters. Then, to compound it further, if you're giving press interviews about an album that's largely about domesticity, and you're trying to sell the album, and your wife and LP-collaborator is sitting next to you throughout the interview, how likely is the interview subject to jump into home-truths and hidden-feelings to a interviewer? "Most Public People" might not speak about intensely personal matters - but John Lennon always did. If you don't realize this, perhaps you aren't well-versed in JL, the Man. (What you describe sounds much more like the more=guarded Paul McCartney). I've said this before and it makes people upset, but it is honest. And that is, I have no idea how someone can be a "John Lennon Fan"... supposedly being more familiar with him than the average citizen... and yet not realize that John was extremely happy at the end of his life.
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Mar 15, 2012 18:50:35 GMT -5
Didn't really appear that way on the Dick Cavett show I must say. Yeah - he definitely still had the humour there. Even during the Mike Douglas ones too... John still had it EVERYWHERE.
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lowbasso
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Post by lowbasso on Mar 16, 2012 1:21:00 GMT -5
Just a question. And it is not designed to inflame anyone on the board to believe that I am bashing Yoko;
Would Yoko have pursued John in 1967-68 as aggressively as she did if John had not been a rich, famous, and influential individual whom Yoko could benefit from with her ideas that she very much wanted to promote to as many people as possible?
She initially approached Paul to assess if he would be interested in her ideas, before he suggested she try her luck with John. And as it were, John was, at that moment in time, looking for someone to fill a void that Cynthia could not ever hope to. John was desparately looking for something to replace the trapped notions he felt within The Beatles fame, as well as a true soulmate who could fulfill his need for ego-stroking and give him the confidence to move in a completely different direction. Yoko gave him all that, and in return she found someone who could, easily with his influence and money, promote her ideas to a wider audience. So it was completely natural that they fell in love with each other.
But again; had John been just some simple "Nowhere British Bloke" without fame and fortune, would Yoko have even bothered to go after him initially?
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Post by ursamajor on Mar 16, 2012 6:14:04 GMT -5
Just a question. And it is not designed to inflame anyone on the board to believe that I am bashing Yoko; Would Yoko have pursued John in 1967-68 as aggressively as she did if John had not been a rich, famous, and influential individual whom Yoko could benefit from with her ideas that she very much wanted to promote to as many people as possible? She initially approached Paul to assess if he would be interested in her ideas, before he suggested she try her luck with John. And as it were, John was, at that moment in time, looking for someone to fill a void that Cynthia could not ever hope to. John was desparately looking for something to replace the trapped notions he felt within The Beatles fame, as well as a true soulmate who could fulfill his need for ego-stroking and give him the confidence to move in a completely different direction. Yoko gave him all that, and in return she found someone who could, easily with his influence and money, promote her ideas to a wider audience. So it was completely natural that they fell in love with each other. But again; had John been just some simple "Nowhere British Bloke" without fame and fortune, would Yoko have even bothered to go after him initially? Well one must ask why she went to Paul in the first place ? How did she actually get to speak to him ? Did she mingle her way into art circles and know who knew Paul and befriended them ? Not trying to be controversial but she said she did not know who John was or who the Beatles were and John even mentions this in his last interview. I find that extremely hard to believe. Unless these facts are wrong and they actually met before this. When John describes meeting Yoko at one of her art shows in his last interview was this before Paul introduced her to him or after ?
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Mar 16, 2012 6:29:20 GMT -5
Well one must ask why she went to Paul in the first place ? How did she actually get to speak to him ? Did she mingle her way into art circles and know who knew Paul and befriended them ? This is Paul's recollection. He may have got the timing wrong. I just watched a 1989 VH-1 Bobby Rivers interview with Paul where Macca says as he gets older his memory for things changes. Paul related an example where he and Neil Aspinall were recently discussing an old Beatles event, and one of them had it occurring in one place and the other guy had it in a different place. I don't, and I've explained why I feel that way before. I think people take it too literally when John said "She didn't know who the hell I was". Because it's probably not that Yoko literally had never heard of The Beatles as a group. But I think it's entirely possible that maybe she couldn't readily list their names or physically identify someone like John Lennon on first glance (depending also on how he dressed that day, if he wore a hat or glasses or something). Maybe it took her a moment to click and connect: "Oh, you mean John from The Beatles.. yes..." But either way I don't see why it's such a big deal. Yoko was Japanese and an avant garde artist with an entirely different background and mindset, who knew nothing about Rock N Roll. And again I'll ask why nobody ever charges Linda Eastman with going along with Paul just because he was A Beatle? Linda was a rock n roll fan and photographed all the bands... she knew who Paul was, all right! And I have some interview somewhere where Paul and Linda say that she really liked JOHN best. So it's the same kind of thing where she probably would have preferred John, if he'd tried to pick her up first. Linda only hooked up with Paul because he was The Beatles who asked her. I'd bet she would have dated George or Ringo as well if they'd approached her first. In some way Linda was akin to a groupie. John described how he and Yoko first met at the Indica Gallery several times, not just during his last interview. Who knows how the timing went? Paul has his side of the story, so does Yoko (who's never been asked about it), and so did John (who we can't ask).
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Post by ursamajor on Mar 16, 2012 6:40:07 GMT -5
Well one must ask why she went to Paul in the first place ? How did she actually get to speak to him ? Did she mingle her way into art circles and know who knew Paul and befriended them ? This is Paul's recollection. He may have got the timing wrong. I just watched a 1989 VH-1 Bobby Rivers interview with Paul where Macca says as he gets older his memory for things changes. Paul related an example where he and Neil Aspinall were recently discussing an old Beatles event, and one of them had it occurring in one place and the other guy had it in a different place. I don't, and I've explained why before. Because it's probably not that Yoko had never heard of The Beatles as a group. But I think it's entirely possible that maybe she couldn't readily physically identify John Lennon, and maybe didn't even know all of their names exactly. Maybe it took her a moment to click: "Oh, John from The Beatles.. yes..." But either way I don't see why it's such a big deal. Yoko was Japanese and an avant garde artist with an entirely different background and mindset, who knew nothing about Rock N Roll. And again I'll ask why nobody ever charges Linda Eastman with going along with Paul just because he was A Beatle? Linda was a rock n roll fan and photographed all the bands... she knew who Paul was, all right! And I have some interview somewhere where Paul and Linda say that she really liked JOHN best. So it's the same kind of thing where she probably would have preferred John, if he'd tried to pick her up first. Linda only hooked up with Paul because he was The Beatles who asked her. I'd bet she would have dated George or Ringo as well if they'd approached her first. In some way Linda was akin to a groupie. John described how he and Yoko first met at the Indica Gallery several times, not just during his last interview. Who knows how the timing went? Paul has his side of the story, so does Yoko (who's never been asked about it), and so did John (who we can't ask). I wasn't trying to paint Yoko as a shady person because clearly however they met it was meant to be as they were right for each other and they actually look good together especially in the Imagine era. When Paul mentioned it , it was surprising and it's enough to make people think suspiciously of Yoko. To answer lowbasso's question I think if Paul directed Yoko to John who happened to not be in the Beatles and not be rich and famous, I'm not quite sure that their relationship would have blossomed. I don't think it would have but obviously that's all speculation. So being rich and famous counts for some if not all women !!!! ![;)](//storage.proboards.com/1960644/images/ulGQVNxtXoHfxsrCSohA.png)
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Mar 16, 2012 6:46:57 GMT -5
When Paul mentioned it , it was surprising and it's enough to make people think suspiciously of Yoko. To answer lowbasso's question I think if Paul directed Yoko to John who happened to not be in the Beatles and not be rich and famous, I'm not quite sure that their relationship would have blossomed. I don't think it would have but obviously that's all speculation. So being rich and famous counts for some if not all women !!!! ![;)](//storage.proboards.com/1960644/images/ulGQVNxtXoHfxsrCSohA.png) But that's just my point... why only single out Yoko Ono? I've mentioned Linda... what about her? And what about Patti Boyd hooking up with George while he was making A HARD DAY'S NIGHT...? Nobody says a thing about Linda and Patti being "opportunists". And of course we all know why that is.... it is because Yoko Haters will consume any fuel they can get in order to reduce her. But his goes even beyond The Beatles and into other music artists... and movie stars.... and sports guys.... do you think Yoko invented this? But anyway, regardless of fame or money I think in Yoko's case it is blatantly obvious to see that she was keen on John as her collaborative partner in art, not just about the money. If money and fame were part of her motivation, so what? She's no different than tons of other women... be they rock wives or other.
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Post by ursamajor on Mar 16, 2012 7:18:13 GMT -5
When Paul mentioned it , it was surprising and it's enough to make people think suspiciously of Yoko. To answer lowbasso's question I think if Paul directed Yoko to John who happened to not be in the Beatles and not be rich and famous, I'm not quite sure that their relationship would have blossomed. I don't think it would have but obviously that's all speculation. So being rich and famous counts for some if not all women !!!! ![;)](//storage.proboards.com/1960644/images/ulGQVNxtXoHfxsrCSohA.png) But that's just my point... why only single out Yoko Ono? I've mentioned Linda... what about her? And what about Patti Boyd hooking up with George while he was making A HARD DAY'S NIGHT...? Nobody says a thing about Linda and Patti being "opportunists". And of course we all know why that is.... it is because Yoko Haters will consume any fuel they can get in order to reduce her. But his goes even beyond The Beatles and into other music artists... and movie stars.... and sports guys.... do you think Yoko invented this? But anyway, regardless of fame or money I think in Yoko's case it is blatantly obvious to see that she was keen on John as her collaborative partner in art, not just about the money. If money and fame were part of her motivation, so what? She's no different than tons of other women... be they rock wives or other. Well that's my point, if a guy has fame and money he's more attractive than the guy who doesn't. If that's all Yoko was after then she chose the right guy. John did treat her quite trashily at times and she still stuck with him. The one reason PEOPLE didn't like her was because she was where she didn't belong, in the studio with the Beatles, but with that said, Linda didn't belong there either. Only a guy like John could enjoy her singing and I'm not sure he liked it but he loved her so he let her sing anyway. It caused tension when she came to the studio and set up her bed at Abbey Rd. George bitched about it and no one can blame him. Her place wasn't at the studio where they were trying to be creative and produce good music.
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Post by zemargla on Mar 16, 2012 8:04:36 GMT -5
I've read Yoko didn't have enough money to maintain her chosen lifestile before she met John. She came from a wealthy family but didn't receive any money.
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Mar 16, 2012 8:30:13 GMT -5
Well that's my point, if a guy has fame and money he's more attractive than the guy who doesn't. If that's all Yoko was after then she chose the right guy. John did treat her quite trashily at times and she still stuck with him. And Ringo beat Barbara up (as he explained on E! EXTREME CLOSEUP 1992). Ringo also turned Barbara into an alcoholic and the two of them went to detox. But of course, Barbara is gorgeous and did not sit in at Beatles sessions, so all's well... But anyway - Yoko obviously clicked with John and artistically they were meant for each other.Whatever her motives were, it all worked out right in the end. And I didn't like it either. However it's been over 40 years and I've gotten over it. John wanted her there and wasn't going to play with the Beatles unless she was present, so even though it was not ethical, that's the way it had to be. Saint George may have been right to bitch, but he was not an angel either -- he shagged Ringo's wife, Maureen...
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Post by acebackwords on Mar 16, 2012 9:42:52 GMT -5
The one reason PEOPLE didn't like her was because she was where she didn't belong, in the studio with the Beatles . . . The main reason most people didn't like Yoko (I'm talking about people who actually met her and had to deal with her) was because she treated just about everyone in her orbit like they were hired servants. Including the other three Beatles. And probably John Himself sometimes. Which John probably got off on, considering most people in his orbit treated him like they were fawning sycophants. Or as Paul once said: "John left Cynthia because she wasn't strong enough to dominate him." Which is fine. Yoko was probably a perfect match for John in that regard. But a less than perfect match for much of the rest of humanity who didn't get off on doing Yoko's bidding.
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Mar 16, 2012 9:56:37 GMT -5
The main reason most people didn't like Yoko (I'm talking about people who actually met her and had to deal with her) was because she treated just about everyone in her orbit like they were hired servants. Including the other three Beatles. And probably John Himself sometimes. Which John probably got off on, considering most people in his orbit treated him like they were fawning sycophants. Or as Paul once said: "John left Cynthia because she wasn't strong enough to dominate him." Which is fine. Yoko was probably a perfect match for John in that regard. But a less than perfect match for much of the rest of humanity who didn't get off on doing Yoko's bidding. In LET IT BE, for example, I don't see any evidence of anyone doing Yoko's bidding. She seems to just sit there quietly saying nothing. "Humanity"? How much of the rest of humanity had to do Yoko's "bidding"? Humanity is a pretty big place. The Bottom Line on this, as ever, is that people just did not want John spending his time with Yoko so much and wished he had focused on The Beatles. It was compounded by the fact that Yoko was also unconventional in ethnicity, looks, and manner. Hey, I am among them ... if I had my own selfish choice I would much rather John been solo. I do truly love his bachelor period in late '73-'75 where he was on his own again.
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Post by mikev on Mar 16, 2012 11:35:16 GMT -5
The main reason most people didn't like Yoko (I'm talking about people who actually met her and had to deal with her) was because she treated just about everyone in her orbit like they were hired servants. Including the other three Beatles. And probably John Himself sometimes. Which John probably got off on, considering most people in his orbit treated him like they were fawning sycophants. Or as Paul once said: "John left Cynthia because she wasn't strong enough to dominate him." Which is fine. Yoko was probably a perfect match for John in that regard. But a less than perfect match for much of the rest of humanity who didn't get off on doing Yoko's bidding. In LET IT BE, for example, I don't see any evidence of anyone doing Yoko's bidding. She seems to just sit there quietly saying nothing. "Humanity"? How much of the rest of humanity had to do Yoko's "bidding"? Humanity is a pretty big place. The Bottom Line on this, as ever, is that people just did not want John spending his time with Yoko so much and wished he had focused on The Beatles. It was compounded by the fact that Yoko was also unconventional in ethnicity, looks, and manner. Hey, I am among them ... if I had my own selfish choice I would much rather John been solo. I do truly love his bachelor period in late '73-'75 where he was on his own again. Reading Sulpy, Yoko interfered quite often during Get Back. She came across as very strongly opinionated. I've actually heard some of the dialogue and as Barney Stinson would put it, her meddling was legend...wait for it...dary. Some highlights include her showing Ringo Starr how to play "New Wave drumming", a classic screaming duet with young Heather, making Mal do push ups in Apple's basement and hitting on Billy Preston "Mama needs her sugar baby...oh John- I didn't know you were back! You can get revenge um... on the day Nixon gets re-elected". It's ALL THERE on Nagra in lovely mono... ![;)](//storage.proboards.com/1960644/images/ulGQVNxtXoHfxsrCSohA.png)
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lowbasso
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Post by lowbasso on Mar 16, 2012 12:45:41 GMT -5
Just a question. And it is not designed to inflame anyone on the board to believe that I am bashing Yoko; Would Yoko have pursued John in 1967-68 as aggressively as she did if John had not been a rich, famous, and influential individual whom Yoko could benefit from with her ideas that she very much wanted to promote to as many people as possible? She initially approached Paul to assess if he would be interested in her ideas, before he suggested she try her luck with John. And as it were, John was, at that moment in time, looking for someone to fill a void that Cynthia could not ever hope to. John was desparately looking for something to replace the trapped notions he felt within The Beatles fame, as well as a true soulmate who could fulfill his need for ego-stroking and give him the confidence to move in a completely different direction. Yoko gave him all that, and in return she found someone who could, easily with his influence and money, promote her ideas to a wider audience. So it was completely natural that they fell in love with each other. But again; had John been just some simple "Nowhere British Bloke" without fame and fortune, would Yoko have even bothered to go after him initially? Well one must ask why she went to Paul in the first place ? How did she actually get to speak to him ? Did she mingle her way into art circles and know who knew Paul and befriended them ? Not trying to be controversial but she said she did not know who John was or who the Beatles were and John even mentions this in his last interview. I find that extremely hard to believe. Unless these facts are wrong and they actually met before this. When John describes meeting Yoko at one of her art shows in his last interview was this before Paul introduced her to him or after ? I believe John first met Yoko in the fall of 1966 at her exhibition at the Gallery, but isn't it true that after the famous "Hammer in an imaginary nail" conversation, she still had no idea who he was until John's companion (his name was John too, I believe) at the event told her that she had just spoken to one of The Beatles; John Lennon, and his companion said it really left no significant impression on her at the time. Similarly, John Lennon appeared to not have shown any keen interest in her as well after this initial encounter. Then, months later, in 1967, was when she approached Paul (according to Paul), now knowing he was a Beatle, and very rich and influential, trying to interest him in her ideas and he directed her to try her luck with John. And at that point she re-connected with John and the relationship took on a more serious tone. But as I understand it, initially, neither John or Yoko showed any real interest in each other after their initial encounter at the art gallery in 1966, though later after they hooked up, they both spoke fondly of that moment like it had really meant more to each of them than was actually the case. Isn't that how it went down chronologically? I also recall reading where John saw Yoko on TV, sometime after his first meeting with her at the gallery, and remarked to Cynthia that he had met that woman back in 1966 when he visited the gallery. So it appeared he hadn't really given her any further thoughts or interest, well after the first chance encounter.
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Post by ReturnToPepperland on Mar 16, 2012 13:29:11 GMT -5
Well one must ask why she went to Paul in the first place ? How did she actually get to speak to him ? Did she mingle her way into art circles and know who knew Paul and befriended them ? This is Paul's recollection. He may have got the timing wrong. I just watched a 1989 VH-1 Bobby Rivers interview with Paul where Macca says as he gets older his memory for things changes. Paul related an example where he and Neil Aspinall were recently discussing an old Beatles event, and one of them had it occurring in one place and the other guy had it in a different place. I don't, and I've explained why I feel that way before. I think people take it too literally when John said "She didn't know who the hell I was". Because it's probably not that Yoko literally had never heard of The Beatles as a group. But I think it's entirely possible that maybe she couldn't readily list their names or physically identify someone like John Lennon on first glance (depending also on how he dressed that day, if he wore a hat or glasses or something). Maybe it took her a moment to click and connect: "Oh, you mean John from The Beatles.. yes..." But either way I don't see why it's such a big deal. Yoko was Japanese and an avant garde artist with an entirely different background and mindset, who knew nothing about Rock N Roll. And again I'll ask why nobody ever charges Linda Eastman with going along with Paul just because he was A Beatle? Linda was a rock n roll fan and photographed all the bands... she knew who Paul was, all right! And I have some interview somewhere where Paul and Linda say that she really liked JOHN best. So it's the same kind of thing where she probably would have preferred John, if he'd tried to pick her up first. Linda only hooked up with Paul because he was The Beatles who asked her. I'd bet she would have dated George or Ringo as well if they'd approached her first. In some way Linda was akin to a groupie. John described how he and Yoko first met at the Indica Gallery several times, not just during his last interview. Who knows how the timing went? Paul has his side of the story, so does Yoko (who's never been asked about it), and so did John (who we can't ask). But to be fair Linda resisted marriage when Paul first brought it up and many times afterward.
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Post by John S. Damm on Mar 16, 2012 15:13:24 GMT -5
This is Paul's recollection. He may have got the timing wrong. I just watched a 1989 VH-1 Bobby Rivers interview with Paul where Macca says as he gets older his memory for things changes. Paul related an example where he and Neil Aspinall were recently discussing an old Beatles event, and one of them had it occurring in one place and the other guy had it in a different place. I don't, and I've explained why I feel that way before. I think people take it too literally when John said "She didn't know who the hell I was". Because it's probably not that Yoko literally had never heard of The Beatles as a group. But I think it's entirely possible that maybe she couldn't readily list their names or physically identify someone like John Lennon on first glance (depending also on how he dressed that day, if he wore a hat or glasses or something). Maybe it took her a moment to click and connect: "Oh, you mean John from The Beatles.. yes..." But either way I don't see why it's such a big deal. Yoko was Japanese and an avant garde artist with an entirely different background and mindset, who knew nothing about Rock N Roll. And again I'll ask why nobody ever charges Linda Eastman with going along with Paul just because he was A Beatle? Linda was a rock n roll fan and photographed all the bands... she knew who Paul was, all right! And I have some interview somewhere where Paul and Linda say that she really liked JOHN best. So it's the same kind of thing where she probably would have preferred John, if he'd tried to pick her up first. Linda only hooked up with Paul because he was The Beatles who asked her. I'd bet she would have dated George or Ringo as well if they'd approached her first. In some way Linda was akin to a groupie. John described how he and Yoko first met at the Indica Gallery several times, not just during his last interview. Who knows how the timing went? Paul has his side of the story, so does Yoko (who's never been asked about it), and so did John (who we can't ask). But to be fair Linda resisted marriage when Paul first brought it up and many times afterward. Don't go there RTP, don't go there! Linda pursued Paul as hard if not harder than Yoko did John!
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