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Post by Steve Marinucci on Nov 8, 2010 0:59:26 GMT -5
I saw this tonight and I'm going to be writing about this soon, but I just wanted to concur with Old Fred in the other thread that this is a great documentary. I know ... all too often we toss superlatives around when it comes to Beatle things, but this really is worth it.
My review will have some of the details, but it's really that good.
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Post by John S. Damm on Nov 8, 2010 9:12:11 GMT -5
I saw this tonight and I'm going to be writing about this soon, but I just wanted to concur with Old Fred in the other thread that this is a great documentary. I know ... all too often we toss superlatives around when it comes to Beatle things, but this really is worth it. My review will have some of the details, but it's really that good. Where can we, out here in the heartlands, see this? Or is that in your article, Steve?
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Post by OldFred on Nov 8, 2010 9:24:39 GMT -5
I saw this tonight and I'm going to be writing about this soon, but I just wanted to concur with Old Fred in the other thread that this is a great documentary. I know ... all too often we toss superlatives around when it comes to Beatle things, but this really is worth it. My review will have some of the details, but it's really that good. Where can we, out here in the heartlands, see this? Or is that in your article, Steve? It'll be showing on PBS stations throughout the country on November 22nd. Check your local listings. It'll also be available on DVD.
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Post by John S. Damm on Nov 8, 2010 9:27:14 GMT -5
Where can we, out here in the heartlands, see this? Or is that in your article, Steve? It'll be showing on PBS stations throughout the country on November 22nd. Check your local listings. It'll also be available on DVD. Thanks Fred. I'll probably get the dvd.
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cosmo
Very Clean
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Post by cosmo on Nov 22, 2010 22:58:29 GMT -5
Just finished watching it - very well done. I'm glad it's for sale - Christmas present to myself, maybe.
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Post by John S. Damm on Nov 23, 2010 0:02:48 GMT -5
I caught most of it tonight on PBS. It was good. The best documentary I have ever seen? Nah.
But I still enjoyed it.
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Post by sayne on Nov 23, 2010 0:52:16 GMT -5
I caught most of it tonight on PBS. It was good. The best documentary I have ever seen? Nah. But I still enjoyed it. Out here in LA they preceded the doc with a movie drama about John's last days with the Beatles. It was called Lennon Naked. Never heard of it. I only saw the last 10 minutes or so - John meeting and arguing with his father and then a press conference prior to leaving England forever. No review. Anyone care to offer one?
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Nov 23, 2010 6:58:53 GMT -5
I saw this last night and thought it was excellent.
While watching it I was very moved, and again shaking my head while thinking of those fans who don't believe that Yoko really loved John, or who actually think John was a miserable man in his househusband years and that he was "doing a con job in the end, and was not truly happy those 5 years".
Watch this documentary, Listen to Yoko's heart, and listen to all those others who knew them - like Jack Douglas, and all the band mates like Elephant's memory, and the musicians who played on DOUBLE FANTASY. Watch the home movies, listen to John's words, and tell me you can possibly feel it was some kind of con or that Yoko was a witch. Fred Semen would have you believe that Yoko was so glad John was killed, and that she was cold and could not wait to snap into action and suck th eblood out of her fallen husband. What a crock that vengeful Semen is.
And then there is May Pang. Watch the LOST WEEKEND segment and hear John (and other people who were with him) say how miserable he was at that time (one guy says "you don't drink every night like that if you're happy"). May is the only person who is thrilled about that time, as she came to love being John's girlfriend and hanging around nightclubs where Lennon was getting roaring drunk and acting like a buffoon and a criminal. She loves the high life and being in the recording studio where John is drunk as a skunk and even Phil Spector cannot control John and get him to behave and get down to work! Is THIS the John Lennon she honestly felt was more 'together'? The Lost Weekend was a disaster, and only May tries to elevate it and claim that John was happy. She does this because she relishes her fifteen minutes of fame.
Also, it appears Yoko has aged much better than May has.
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Post by OldFred on Nov 23, 2010 9:05:16 GMT -5
The latest edition of the Fab Fourum podcasts is a discussion of the 'LennoNYC' documentary, which the Fabs moderated a special screening of the film at the Paley Center in NY this past October. Their take on the film is pretty interesting and they discuss how the documentary is pretty well balanced on the subject of John Lennon's New York years and the period of the 'lost weekend'. An interesting point made is that as good as the film is, a two hour documentary is NOT going to really do justice on covering Lennon's life in that not every little detail is going to get touched. A point made in the podcast is that Lennon should have a documentary series like the Beatles Anthology that goes even deeper in depth on his life to really give folks the full picture. Maybe one day that will happen. In any case, the podcast is worth a listen. Also check out previous Fab podcasts, one dealing with an interesting discussion on the 'Rubber Soul' album. Click on the link to hear the podcasts. www.podarama.com/fab_fourum/blog.php
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Post by John S. Damm on Nov 23, 2010 10:04:08 GMT -5
Also, it appears Yoko has aged much better than May has. Don't disagree at all but in fairness, Yoko has a lot more money to spend than May in looking so good. The days of Yoko looking like a dirty artist are long gone.
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lowbasso
A Hard Day's Knight
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Post by lowbasso on Nov 23, 2010 16:50:48 GMT -5
I saw this last night and thought it was excellent. While watching it I was very moved, and again shaking my head while thinking of those fans who don't believe that Yoko really loved John, or who actually think John was a miserable man in his househusband years and that he was "doing a con job in the end, and was not truly happy those 5 years". Watch this documentary, Listen to Yoko's heart, and listen to all those others who knew them - like Jack Douglas, and all the band mates like Elephant's memory, and the musicians who played on DOUBLE FANTASY. Watch the home movies, listen to John's words, and tell me you can possibly feel it was some kind of con or that Yoko was a witch. Fred Semen would have you believe that Yoko was so glad John was killed, and that she was cold and could not wait to snap into action and suck th eblood out of her fallen husband. What a crock that vengeful Semen is. And then there is May Pang. Watch the LOST WEEKEND segment and hear John (and other people who were with him) say how miserable he was at that time (one guy says "you don't drink every night like that if you're happy"). May is the only person who is thrilled about that time, as she came to love being John's girlfriend and hanging around nightclubs where Lennon was getting roaring drunk and acting like a buffoon and a criminal. She loves the high life and being in the recording studio where John is drunk as a skunk and even Phil Spector cannot control John and get him to behave and get down to work! Is THIS the John Lennon she honestly felt was more 'together'? The Lost Weekend was a disaster, and only May tries to elevate it and claim that John was happy. She does this because she relishes her fifteen minutes of fame. Also, it appears Yoko has aged much better than May has. Joe, I saw the doc last evening as well and I have to say it does put Yoko in a different light for me. Now I still think she was out to snag John in 1968 for reasons more than just love at first site, she knew exactly which "buttons" to push to get John interested in her, as well as her insensitivity at putting herself in the studio with the band during the making of their last three albums, making the others very uncomfortable. Even if John wanted her there, she knew it was not the right thing to do and should have insisted John go to the studio alone when working with the others. But watching last evening it certainly showed John for the insensitive prick he was when Nixon won re-election in 1972, and John and Yoko went to the party where John grabbed a girl and proceeded to have sex with her in an adjacent room while Yoko and the others had to "listen" to the activity through the walls, completely embarrassing Yoko. I would have done more than send him off to LA on a Lost Weekend with his secretary as "punishment" for the event. But we all know how insensitive John could be toward just about anybody, friend, foe, even wives. It's no wonder he had relatively few close friends. After seeing "Nowhere Boy", one can see how screwed up John was, given his upbringing, and the chips on his shoulder were quite sizable as a result. Everyone he knew paid a price for those chips. Yoko came across quite well in last evening's documentary, probably better here than anything else written or filmed about her association with John. Kudos to her for her mature commentary on all subjects she spoke about in the documentary. BTW, It's a shame Paul was not interviewed for the documentary to give his opinions on John during this period, given he did see him occasionally in NYC and LA. Yoko's plea at the end of the documentary of "He was an artist, why did you have to kill him?" is quite moving and jarring in its delivery, especially as she was off camera at the moment she made this comment. It left me speechless at the end of the show for quite a while. It is quite a good essay on John's decade after The Beatles, and I believe it is already available on DVD at PBS' website if you want to order it.
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Post by John S. Damm on Nov 23, 2010 19:09:40 GMT -5
But watching last evening it certainly showed John for the insensitive prick he was when Nixon won re-election in 1972, and John and Yoko went to the party where John grabbed a girl and proceeded to have sex with her in an adjacent room while Yoko and the others had to "listen" to the activity through the walls, completely embarrassing Yoko. I would have done more than send him off to LA on a Lost Weekend with his secretary as "punishment" for the event. But we all know how insensitive John could be toward just about anybody, friend, foe, even wives. It's no wonder he had relatively few close friends. LOL. This documentary may have turned people off Lennon! A good friend of mine, a songwriter herself, has always been an enthusiastic John Lennon fan even though she has not read a lot about his life. She goes 99% by his music in her enthusiasm about him. Well, she watched this documentary last night and now she thinks that John was a big egomaniac "prick" and it lessens her opinion of his music! She totally sympathizes with Yoko to the extent of writing John off. Hmm. I am not sure that is the effect they were going for with this documentary but you mentioned your surprise too, lowbasso, about John's behavior and you are a hardcore fan! I just chuckled as John lost at least one fan by this documentary.
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Post by Snookeroo on Nov 24, 2010 0:55:26 GMT -5
I saw this last night and thought it was excellent. While watching it I was very moved, and again shaking my head while thinking of those fans who don't believe that Yoko really loved John, or who actually think John was a miserable man in his househusband years and that he was "doing a con job in the end, and was not truly happy those 5 years". I liked the part where one of John's west-coast cronies called Yoko back in NY to practically beg her to take him back. Then Yoko herself said that they called and she told them that everyone used to complain that she was controlling him and to give him space, and NOW she should bring him home? She said "No, you wanted him, you take care of him". I thought that was brilliant. I thought the show wa nicely done. I'd never seen those early NY years get so well delved into. The recollections of people like the Elephants Memory band, and Jim Keltner were terrific. And even though there were memories of some folks being awestruck by John, they also painted a very honest picture of John - warts and all. John would have approved I'm sure. Yoko cetainly approved it. Kudos to her. The story of John taking a girl into another room right in front of Yoko was brutal, and the subsequent pics of J & Y the next day where's he's begging her forgiveness were quite a thing to see. Another story I loved was told by Jack Douglas. He ran into John and Sean in the street one day in the later 70's and they had lunch. He talked about the incredible bond between John and Sean. He talked about how remarkable the difference was in John's whole persona. John asked Jack to call him and fill him in on what was happening in the music scene. Jack said he never called. He didn't want to spoil the wonderful life John was living outside the music. Of course John ended up calling himself sometime down the road which lead to Double Fantasy. You have to see Jack tell the story in the documentary to reall appreciate it. It was a great moment in the show.
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Nov 24, 2010 6:20:24 GMT -5
The story of John taking a girl into another room right in front of Yoko was brutal, and the subsequent pics of J & Y the next day where's he's begging her forgiveness were quite a thing to see. That was really touching. I never knew those photos had been taken the day after. Agreed. But haven't you heard? John was actually doing a "fake PR con on the street. He was really a miserably depressed and unhappy person in those last years!" ;D
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Nov 24, 2010 6:27:53 GMT -5
LOL. This documentary may have turned people off Lennon! A good friend of mine, a songwriter herself, has always been an enthusiastic John Lennon fan even though she has not read a lot about his life. She goes 99% by his music in her enthusiasm about him. Well, she watched this documentary last night and now she thinks that John was a big egomaniac "prick" and it lessens her opinion of his music! She totally sympathizes with Yoko to the extent of writing John off. Hmm. I am not sure that is the effect they were going for with this documentary but you mentioned your surprise too, lowbasso, about John's behavior and you are a hardcore fan! I just chuckled as John lost at least one fan by this documentary. I'm laughing too, but not for the same reasons you are. I'm puzzled at how someone can be a John Lennon fan when they are "turned off" by John's humanity, warts and imperfections, and everything all included. Now I'm not saying they should "approve" of everything Lennon did -- bit that is the pure essence of Lennon, and what made him so human and special. The fact that he could be all these things, not just positive and good but negative and bad as well. And besides, it's not like John did not own up to his many faults and write about them in his pained music. I guess fans like that ought to stick with OB LA DI OB LA DA or C MOON.
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Nov 24, 2010 6:37:06 GMT -5
Joe, I saw the doc last evening as well and I have to say it does put Yoko in a different light for me. Yoko's plea at the end of the documentary of "He was an artist, why did you have to kill him?" is quite moving and jarring in its delivery, especially as she was off camera at the moment she made this comment. It left me speechless at the end of the show for quite a while. I'm glad. But you see, this is all I have been saying. Now, I'm not sure how much stuff of this type you ordinarily watch, but my point has always been that I feel a lot of people base their opinions on things they've "heard", or on a general stereotyped image of Yoko (and John). But there are many other interviews with Yoko and other people, which show the truth. Regardless of all these urban legends and bad reps that are floating around out there which people instinctively gravitate toward, when one actually takes the time to see the footage and hear the interviews and reflections over the decades, it becomes obvious that Yoko's not all that bad.
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Nov 24, 2010 6:56:50 GMT -5
Also, it appears Yoko has aged much better than May has. Don't disagree at all but in fairness, Yoko has a lot more money to spend than May in looking so good. Well, apparently May has enough money to buy Mallomars! ;D
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Post by John S. Damm on Nov 24, 2010 12:34:12 GMT -5
LOL. This documentary may have turned people off Lennon! A good friend of mine, a songwriter herself, has always been an enthusiastic John Lennon fan even though she has not read a lot about his life. She goes 99% by his music in her enthusiasm about him. Well, she watched this documentary last night and now she thinks that John was a big egomaniac "prick" and it lessens her opinion of his music! She totally sympathizes with Yoko to the extent of writing John off. Hmm. I am not sure that is the effect they were going for with this documentary but you mentioned your surprise too, lowbasso, about John's behavior and you are a hardcore fan! I just chuckled as John lost at least one fan by this documentary. I'm laughing too, but not for the same reasons you are. I'm puzzled at how someone can be a John Lennon fan when they are "turned off" by John's humanity, warts and imperfections, and everything all included. Now I'm not saying they should "approve" of everything Lennon did -- bit that is the pure essence of Lennon, and what made him so human and special. The fact that he could be all these things, not just positive and good but negative and bad as well. And besides, it's not like John did not own up to his many faults and write about them in his pained music. I guess fans like that ought to stick with OB LA DI OB LA DA or C MOON. I'll tell my friend that she did not get the JoeK approval on how to feel about John Lennon. That means that she is not a "true" John Lennon fan.
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lowbasso
A Hard Day's Knight
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Post by lowbasso on Nov 24, 2010 12:58:55 GMT -5
But watching last evening it certainly showed John for the insensitive prick he was when Nixon won re-election in 1972, and John and Yoko went to the party where John grabbed a girl and proceeded to have sex with her in an adjacent room while Yoko and the others had to "listen" to the activity through the walls, completely embarrassing Yoko. I would have done more than send him off to LA on a Lost Weekend with his secretary as "punishment" for the event. But we all know how insensitive John could be toward just about anybody, friend, foe, even wives. It's no wonder he had relatively few close friends. LOL. This documentary may have turned people off Lennon! A good friend of mine, a songwriter herself, has always been an enthusiastic John Lennon fan even though she has not read a lot about his life. She goes 99% by his music in her enthusiasm about him. Well, she watched this documentary last night and now she thinks that John was a big egomaniac "prick" and it lessens her opinion of his music! She totally sympathizes with Yoko to the extent of writing John off. Hmm. I am not sure that is the effect they were going for with this documentary but you mentioned your surprise too, lowbasso, about John's behavior and you are a hardcore fan! I just chuckled as John lost at least one fan by this documentary. John is still and will always be my favorite Beatle even though he was a prick to Yoko in that instance and was a prick to just about everyone else in his life at some point who ever really cared about him. John had a tough time as a kid dealing with his parents who passed him off to be raised by his aunt, then losing his mother violently after finally re-establishing his relationship with her. He lost the ability to properly develop human relationships as a result. He was lucky that the people who really cared about him looked beyond John's shortcomings and saw him for what lie hidden deep inside him so they accepted the rough treatments they often got from him and still remained close to him. John's innate genius when it came to all things musical is why I hold him up as my favorite Beatle. His personal background coupled with that innate genius is what made him the most fascinating Beatle in terms of the songs he wrote. His bond with someone totally different than himself personally, but with that same musical genius (ie. Paul) was what made their song catalogue unique. When you listen to a Lennon song, it makes you think; What does he mean by those lyrics? How are those lyrics applicable to my life? Why does the melody fit so well with the lyrics? So that is why John, prick that he was, will always be my favorite Beatle.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 25, 2010 5:22:12 GMT -5
I saw this last night and thought it was excellent. While watching it I was very moved, and again shaking my head while thinking of those fans who don't believe that Yoko really loved John, or who actually think John was a miserable man in his househusband years and that he was "doing a con job in the end, and was not truly happy those 5 years". Watch this documentary, Listen to Yoko's heart, and listen to all those others who knew them - like Jack Douglas, and all the band mates like Elephant's memory, and the musicians who played on DOUBLE FANTASY. Watch the home movies, listen to John's words, and tell me you can possibly feel it was some kind of con or that Yoko was a witch. Fred Semen would have you believe that Yoko was so glad John was killed, and that she was cold and could not wait to snap into action and suck th eblood out of her fallen husband. What a crock that vengeful Semen is. And then there is May Pang. Watch the LOST WEEKEND segment and hear John (and other people who were with him) say how miserable he was at that time (one guy says "you don't drink every night like that if you're happy"). May is the only person who is thrilled about that time, as she came to love being John's girlfriend and hanging around nightclubs where Lennon was getting roaring drunk and acting like a buffoon and a criminal. She loves the high life and being in the recording studio where John is drunk as a skunk and even Phil Spector cannot control John and get him to behave and get down to work! Is THIS the John Lennon she honestly felt was more 'together'? The Lost Weekend was a disaster, and only May tries to elevate it and claim that John was happy. She does this because she relishes her fifteen minutes of fame. Also, it appears Yoko has aged much better than May has. You are so *RIGHT* about Yoko and her still deep love for John and how all of his friends and musicians who worked with him towards the end on his Double Fantasy album,(and his last radio interview just hours before the lunatic killed him)and his own songs on Double Fantasy all prove that John had emotionally finally grown up,and was much more together emotionally than ever before and not angry and bitter anymore because of Yoko and their relationship turned him into a feminist,and caring nurturing house husband and father. And in Ray Coleman's excellent book,Lennon he explains that Fred Seaman plead guilty to not only stealing John's personal diaries from his home soon after John was killed,but cash and stereo equipment too. That is so horrible and disgusting,you can't trust or believe *anything* he has ever said!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 25, 2010 6:18:48 GMT -5
But watching last evening it certainly showed John for the insensitive prick he was when Nixon won re-election in 1972, and John and Yoko went to the party where John grabbed a girl and proceeded to have sex with her in an adjacent room while Yoko and the others had to "listen" to the activity through the walls, completely embarrassing Yoko. I would have done more than send him off to LA on a Lost Weekend with his secretary as "punishment" for the event. But we all know how insensitive John could be toward just about anybody, friend, foe, even wives. It's no wonder he had relatively few close friends. LOL. This documentary may have turned people off Lennon! A good friend of mine, a songwriter herself, has always been an enthusiastic John Lennon fan even though she has not read a lot about his life. She goes 99% by his music in her enthusiasm about him. Well, she watched this documentary last night and now she thinks that John was a big egomaniac "prick" and it lessens her opinion of his music! She totally sympathizes with Yoko to the extent of writing John off. Hmm. I am not sure that is the effect they were going for with this documentary but you mentioned your surprise too, lowbasso, about John's behavior and you are a hardcore fan! I just chuckled as John lost at least one fan by this documentary. That is totally different from what I saw as the real John,I felt this great documetary showed what I always understod,and what award winning music journalist and former editor of THe Melody Maker for 20 years,and close friend of John's for 18 years from 1962-1980,Ray Coleman so empathetically wrote about John in his great thorough John biography,Lennon.John was emotionally scarred and messed up for most of his life and in a lot of pain because of the traumas he had in his childhood and teens,but I'm sure he was not a bad person for the most part,I think he was really a sensitive good person underneath all along,just mentally sick for most of his life,but he was definitely much more emotionally together and sweet at the end sadly.And that is who the *real* john really always was under all of the emotional pain and anger. I love John *more* as a person(and artist)(and made me feel even sadder that he was taken away and so horribly) after seeing this show. I knew for years already about how he cheated on Yoko when she was right there,and yes that was terrible and it's not an excuse but this is an explaination which even Yoko herslef said she uncerstood,he was in a bad emotional state and very drunk,and as Jack Douglas said(and Eliot Mintz says this in Lennon by Ray Coleman) that John and alcohol were a very bad combination he never could handle it well and it had a really bad effect on him,thank God he eventually cleaned up and got off of it during the last 5 years of his life.And he had a good conscious,he felt very guilty about the things he did including this which was made very clear in this program.At least he did have a concious and regretted and felt sorry for the wrong things he did and actually worked on himself and changed for the better,that is a lot more than a lot of men(and some women do),many wife beaters and rapists never feel any remorse and never try to work on themseles and change! Paul McCartney for the most part isn't a bastard,but a sweet person,but after he and beautiful British red haired actress Jane Asher were lovers for five years from April 1963 when she was only 17 and a virgin,and Paul was 21( and far from a virgin since he lost his virginity at only age 15 in 1957 which was not common then with a girl who was bigger and older than him) and she and Paul lived together in their own house from 1966-Spring 1968 when after they were engaged to be married for 7 months,Jane came home unexpectedly early from touring with her theatre company,she found Paul in their bed with another woman and she left Paul for good! George cheated on Pattie including with Ringo's first wife Maureen,and John,George, and Ringo all also cheated on their first wives with tons of young women groupies,many who were teenage girls,when they were touring from 1963-1966 and this was a very common part of the rock and roll life style especially in the 1960's. John said in his last interviews that he regretted being violent getting into fights with men and hitting women,and said that is why he felt so strongly about being peaceful and promoting peace.Yoko changed him for the better,because of their love,and great relationship and her feminism,John went into scream therapy with psychologist Dr.Arthur Janov and dealt with his traumas for the first time,and he made a brilliant album out of it,his first solo album,John Lennon Plastic Ono Band and he became a feminist,and a nurturing caring husband and father to Yoko and his son Sean.If you listen to the radio interviews he did hours before it happened,he sounded much more together,and happy and not angry and bitter any more.He talked about how he regretted not spending enough time with his first son Julian and that he was in his 20's like most men too involed with their careers to be a real involed father.He said that he regretted this and that he and Julian would have a relationship in the future. And it was also very brave and great of John to co-write and sing on The Dick Cavet Show and in the Madison Square Garden concerts both in 1972 the powerful and sadly still true,feminist song,Woman Is The Ni**er of The World,and it was banned off of the radio,and on The Dick Cavet show,shown in LENNONYC he sweetly and clearly explained what this song was really about and why he and Yoko wrote it and performed it. As a poster on Paul McCartney.com said in discussing this great show,that Tom Hayden pointed out how John and Yoko worked hard on behalf of many different social injustices.And John's great live performance of John Sinclair at that concert on his behalf,helped get him out of jail 48 hours later! And as many problems John had,he(and Paul McCartney) gave millions of people happiness with their musical brilliance,and John never would have shot and killed anyone!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 25, 2010 6:47:23 GMT -5
I saw this last night and thought it was excellent. While watching it I was very moved, and again shaking my head while thinking of those fans who don't believe that Yoko really loved John, or who actually think John was a miserable man in his househusband years and that he was "doing a con job in the end, and was not truly happy those 5 years". Watch this documentary, Listen to Yoko's heart, and listen to all those others who knew them - like Jack Douglas, and all the band mates like Elephant's memory, and the musicians who played on DOUBLE FANTASY. Watch the home movies, listen to John's words, and tell me you can possibly feel it was some kind of con or that Yoko was a witch. Fred Semen would have you believe that Yoko was so glad John was killed, and that she was cold and could not wait to snap into action and suck th eblood out of her fallen husband. What a crock that vengeful Semen is. And then there is May Pang. Watch the LOST WEEKEND segment and hear John (and other people who were with him) say how miserable he was at that time (one guy says "you don't drink every night like that if you're happy"). May is the only person who is thrilled about that time, as she came to love being John's girlfriend and hanging around nightclubs where Lennon was getting roaring drunk and acting like a buffoon and a criminal. She loves the high life and being in the recording studio where John is drunk as a skunk and even Phil Spector cannot control John and get him to behave and get down to work! Is THIS the John Lennon she honestly felt was more 'together'? The Lost Weekend was a disaster, and only May tries to elevate it and claim that John was happy. She does this because she relishes her fifteen minutes of fame. Also, it appears Yoko has aged much better than May has. Joe, I saw the doc last evening as well and I have to say it does put Yoko in a different light for me. Now I still think she was out to snag John in 1968 for reasons more than just love at first site, she knew exactly which "buttons" to push to get John interested in her, as well as her insensitivity at putting herself in the studio with the band during the making of their last three albums, making the others very uncomfortable. Even if John wanted her there, she knew it was not the right thing to do and should have insisted John go to the studio alone when working with the others. But watching last evening it certainly showed John for the insensitive prick he was when Nixon won re-election in 1972, and John and Yoko went to the party where John grabbed a girl and proceeded to have sex with her in an adjacent room while Yoko and the others had to "listen" to the activity through the walls, completely embarrassing Yoko. I would have done more than send him off to LA on a Lost Weekend with his secretary as "punishment" for the event. But we all know how insensitive John could be toward just about anybody, friend, foe, even wives. It's no wonder he had relatively few close friends. After seeing "Nowhere Boy", one can see how screwed up John was, given his upbringing, and the chips on his shoulder were quite sizable as a result. Everyone he knew paid a price for those chips. Yoko came across quite well in last evening's documentary, probably better here than anything else written or filmed about her association with John. Kudos to her for her mature commentary on all subjects she spoke about in the documentary. BTW, It's a shame Paul was not interviewed for the documentary to give his opinions on John during this period, given he did see him occasionally in NYC and LA. Yoko's plea at the end of the documentary of "He was an artist, why did you have to kill him?" is quite moving and jarring in its delivery, especially as she was off camera at the moment she made this comment. It left me speechless at the end of the show for quite a while. It is quite a good essay on John's decade after The Beatles, and I believe it is already available on DVD at PBS' website if you want to order it. It was *not* insensitive of Yoko at all,if she didn't do as *John requested* of her to go with him to The Beatles recording sessions,he likely would just not have gone at all anymore! And I don't believe that Yoko didn't love John from the very beginning and was out to snag John for other reasons besides loving him.Ignorant people who actually still claim that Yoko keeps putting out John merchandise just to make money(she doesn't really need more money anyway,John was a millionaire,and she made and still makes some of her own money from her work as an artist herself in addition) off of his memory are so totally wrong! I always knew that she does it because she still loves John very deeply,and she wants to keep his memory alive as the great music artist and art artist he really was because he was so tragically killed at only age 40 by a crazy fan.And I was always right,because I recently read an old interview with her on this very site where she says pretty much excatly what I said.
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Nov 25, 2010 6:48:45 GMT -5
That is totally different from what I saw as the real John,I felt this great documetary showed what I always understod,and what award winning music journalist and former editor of THe Melody Maker for 20 years,and close friend of John's for 18 years from 1962-1980,Ray Coleman so empathetically wrote about John in his great thorough John biography,Lennon.John was emotionally scarred and messed up for most of his life and in a lot of pain because of the traumas he had in his childhood and teens,but I'm sure he was not a bad person for the most part,I think he was really a sensitive good person underneath all along,just mentally sick for most of his life,but he was definitely much more emotionally together and sweet at the end sadly.And that is who the *real* john really always was under all of the emotional pain and anger. I love John *more* as a person(and artist) after seeing this show. I knew for years already about how he cheated on Yoko when she was right there,and yes that was terrible and it's not an excuse but this is an explaination which even Yoko herslef said she uncerstood,he was in a bad emotional state and very drunk,and as Jack Douglas said(and Eliot Mintz says this in Lennon by Ray Coleman) that John and alcohol were a very bad combination he never could handle it well and it had a really bad effect on him,thank God he eventually cleaned up and got off of it during the last 5 years of his life.And he had a good conscious,he felt very guilty about the things he did including this which was made very clear in this program.At least he did have a concious and regretted and felt sorry for the wrong things he did and actually worked on himself and changed for the better,that is a lot more than a lot of men(and some women do),many wife beaters and rapists never feel any remorse and never try to work on themseles and change! Paul McCartney for the most part isn't a bastard,but a sweet person,but after he and beautiful British red haired actress Jane Asher were lovers for five years from April 1963 when she was only 17 and a virgin,and Paul was 21( and far from a virgin since he lost his virginity at only age 15 in 1957 which was not common then with a girl who was bigger and older than him) and she and Paul lived together in their own house from 1966-Spring 1968 when after they were engaged to be married for 7 months,Jane came home unexpectedly early from touring with her theatre company,she found Paul in their bed with another woman and she left Paul for good! George cheated on Pattie including with Ringo's first wife Maureen,and John,George, and Ringo all also cheated on their first wives with tons of young women groupies,many who were teenage girls,when they were touring from 1963-1966 and this was a very common part of the rock and roll life style especially in the 1960's. John said in his last interviews that he regretted being violent getting into fights with men and hitting women,and said that is why he felt so strongly about being peaceful and promoting peace.Yoko changed him for the better,because of their love,and great relationship and her feminism,John went into scream therapy with psychologist Dr.Arthur Janov and dealt with his traumas for the first time,and he made a brilliant album out of it,his first solo album,John Lennon Plastic Ono Band and he became a feminist,and a nurturing caring husband and father to Yoko and his son Sean.If you listen to the radio interviews he did hours before it happened,he sounded much more together,and happy and not angry and bitter any more.He talked about how he regretted not spending enough time with his first son Julian and that he was in his 20's like most men too involed with their careers to be a real involed father.He said that he regretted this and that he and Julian would have a relationship in the future. And it was also very brave and great of John to co-write and sing on The Dick Cavet Show and in the Madison Square Garden concerts both in 1972 the powerful and sadly still true,feminist song,Woman Is The Ni**er of The World,and it was banned off of the radio,and on The Dick Cavet show,shown in LENNONYC he sweetly and clearly explained what this song was really about and why he and Yoko wrote it and performed it. As a poster on Paul McCartney.com said in discussing this great show,that Tom Hayden pointed out how John and Yoko worked hard on behalf of many different social injustices.And John's great live performance of John Sinclair at that concert on his behalf,helped get him out of jail 48 hours later! And as many problems John had,he(and Paul McCartney) gave millions of people happiness with their musical brilliance,and John never would have shot and killed anyone! BRILLIANT post. Learn it. Know it. Live it.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 25, 2010 6:51:35 GMT -5
I saw this last night and thought it was excellent. While watching it I was very moved, and again shaking my head while thinking of those fans who don't believe that Yoko really loved John, or who actually think John was a miserable man in his househusband years and that he was "doing a con job in the end, and was not truly happy those 5 years". Watch this documentary, Listen to Yoko's heart, and listen to all those others who knew them - like Jack Douglas, and all the band mates like Elephant's memory, and the musicians who played on DOUBLE FANTASY. Watch the home movies, listen to John's words, and tell me you can possibly feel it was some kind of con or that Yoko was a witch. Fred Semen would have you believe that Yoko was so glad John was killed, and that she was cold and could not wait to snap into action and suck th eblood out of her fallen husband. What a crock that vengeful Semen is. And then there is May Pang. Watch the LOST WEEKEND segment and hear John (and other people who were with him) say how miserable he was at that time (one guy says "you don't drink every night like that if you're happy"). May is the only person who is thrilled about that time, as she came to love being John's girlfriend and hanging around nightclubs where Lennon was getting roaring drunk and acting like a buffoon and a criminal. She loves the high life and being in the recording studio where John is drunk as a skunk and even Phil Spector cannot control John and get him to behave and get down to work! Is THIS the John Lennon she honestly felt was more 'together'? The Lost Weekend was a disaster, and only May tries to elevate it and claim that John was happy. She does this because she relishes her fifteen minutes of fame. Also, it appears Yoko has aged much better than May has. And May is about 18 years younger than Yoko,and May is still very attractive at age 59 and she was very pretty when she and John had their relationship.But I never thought Yoko was ugly at all,and before this great show I had seen pictures of her in her 30's and 40's where she actually looked very attractive.And in this show I thought she actually looked very cute and pretty standing next to John on stage when he was playing and singing John Sinclair and she also looked good on The Dick Cavet show and some other still pictures from other times.And Yoko looks very good,she will be 78 in February!
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Nov 25, 2010 7:01:49 GMT -5
I'll tell my friend that she did not get the JoeK approval on how to feel about John Lennon. That means that she is not a "true" John Lennon fan. Please do. But also kindly remind her that this is only my opinion, and I'm just some guy on a message board. You may also want to remind her of Lucy's wonderful post here too, as she is someone who also "gets" John Lennon and your friend may learn something from Lucy's post. I mean, seriously -- if a person says she loves John's music but then suddenly decides she's turned off to his music because she watched a documentary about John and she learns that he did some bad things like ANY Human beings do, what can one say? She should learn that this only ENHANCES John's music. Tell her to listen to Aisumasen. John, you said yourself: "A good friend of mine, a songwriter herself, has always been an enthusiastic John Lennon fan even though she has not read a lot about his life. She goes 99% by his music in her enthusiasm about him. Well, she watched this documentary last night and now she thinks that John was a big egomaniac "prick" and it lessens her opinion of his music!
I just chuckled as John lost at least one fan by this documentary."I understand that this woman is a personal friend of yours, so I am sorry my opinion here may offend you. But you admit she "has not read a lot about John's life," and then you say her opinion of his music is now "lessened" because she discovered through the NYC documentary that Lennon did some negative things like any human being occasionally does (none of us are perfect). Just putting your personal feelings for your friend aside for a moment, John, wouldn't you say she missed the essence of Lennon? And that the beauty of much of John's music was because of his pain, flaws, doubts, anger, "prickiness", etc? I just think she misses the whole point. I think you can help her appreciate Lennon even MORE by learning.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 25, 2010 7:18:09 GMT -5
That is totally different from what I saw as the real John,I felt this great documetary showed what I always understod,and what award winning music journalist and former editor of THe Melody Maker for 20 years,and close friend of John's for 18 years from 1962-1980,Ray Coleman so empathetically wrote about John in his great thorough John biography,Lennon.John was emotionally scarred and messed up for most of his life and in a lot of pain because of the traumas he had in his childhood and teens,but I'm sure he was not a bad person for the most part,I think he was really a sensitive good person underneath all along,just mentally sick for most of his life,but he was definitely much more emotionally together and sweet at the end sadly.And that is who the *real* john really always was under all of the emotional pain and anger. I love John *more* as a person(and artist) after seeing this show. I knew for years already about how he cheated on Yoko when she was right there,and yes that was terrible and it's not an excuse but this is an explaination which even Yoko herslef said she uncerstood,he was in a bad emotional state and very drunk,and as Jack Douglas said(and Eliot Mintz says this in Lennon by Ray Coleman) that John and alcohol were a very bad combination he never could handle it well and it had a really bad effect on him,thank God he eventually cleaned up and got off of it during the last 5 years of his life.And he had a good conscious,he felt very guilty about the things he did including this which was made very clear in this program.At least he did have a concious and regretted and felt sorry for the wrong things he did and actually worked on himself and changed for the better,that is a lot more than a lot of men(and some women do),many wife beaters and rapists never feel any remorse and never try to work on themseles and change! Paul McCartney for the most part isn't a bastard,but a sweet person,but after he and beautiful British red haired actress Jane Asher were lovers for five years from April 1963 when she was only 17 and a virgin,and Paul was 21( and far from a virgin since he lost his virginity at only age 15 in 1957 which was not common then with a girl who was bigger and older than him) and she and Paul lived together in their own house from 1966-Spring 1968 when after they were engaged to be married for 7 months,Jane came home unexpectedly early from touring with her theatre company,she found Paul in their bed with another woman and she left Paul for good! George cheated on Pattie including with Ringo's first wife Maureen,and John,George, and Ringo all also cheated on their first wives with tons of young women groupies,many who were teenage girls,when they were touring from 1963-1966 and this was a very common part of the rock and roll life style especially in the 1960's. John said in his last interviews that he regretted being violent getting into fights with men and hitting women,and said that is why he felt so strongly about being peaceful and promoting peace.Yoko changed him for the better,because of their love,and great relationship and her feminism,John went into scream therapy with psychologist Dr.Arthur Janov and dealt with his traumas for the first time,and he made a brilliant album out of it,his first solo album,John Lennon Plastic Ono Band and he became a feminist,and a nurturing caring husband and father to Yoko and his son Sean.If you listen to the radio interviews he did hours before it happened,he sounded much more together,and happy and not angry and bitter any more.He talked about how he regretted not spending enough time with his first son Julian and that he was in his 20's like most men too involed with their careers to be a real involed father.He said that he regretted this and that he and Julian would have a relationship in the future. And it was also very brave and great of John to co-write and sing on The Dick Cavet Show and in the Madison Square Garden concerts both in 1972 the powerful and sadly still true,feminist song,Woman Is The Ni**er of The World,and it was banned off of the radio,and on The Dick Cavet show,shown in LENNONYC he sweetly and clearly explained what this song was really about and why he and Yoko wrote it and performed it. As a poster on Paul McCartney.com said in discussing this great show,that Tom Hayden pointed out how John and Yoko worked hard on behalf of many different social injustices.And John's great live performance of John Sinclair at that concert on his behalf,helped get him out of jail 48 hours later! And as many problems John had,he(and Paul McCartney) gave millions of people happiness with their musical brilliance,and John never would have shot and killed anyone! BRILLIANT post. Learn it. Know it. Live it. Thank you very much Joe! Should *I* just learn,know and live my *brilliant* post or is that to everyone else to? ;D
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Nov 25, 2010 7:19:26 GMT -5
And I don't believe that Yoko didn't love John from the very beginning and was out to snag John for other reasons besides loving him.Ignorant people who actually still claim that Yoko keeps putting out John merchandise just to make money(she doesn't really need more money anyway,John was a millionaire,and she made and still makes some of her own money from her work as an artist herself in addition) off of his memory are so totally wrong! I always knew that she does it because she still loves John very deeply,and she wants to keep huis memory alive as the great music artist and art artist he really was because he was so tragically killed at only age 40 by a crazy fan.And I was always right,because I recently read an old interview with her on this very site where she says pretty much excatly what I said. Right on. Lucy, I need you on this board! I hope you'll join me and Snookeroo in the good cause of defending JohnandYoko from some of their self-titled "beast friends", when the circumstances require it!
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Nov 25, 2010 7:22:31 GMT -5
Thank you very much Joe! Should just I learn,know and live my *brilliant* post or is that to everyone else to? ;D It was intended for others. I can see you already know it!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 25, 2010 7:26:56 GMT -5
I'll tell my friend that she did not get the JoeK approval on how to feel about John Lennon. That means that she is not a "true" John Lennon fan. Please do. But also kindly remind her that this is only my opinion, and I'm just some guy on a message board. You may also want to remind her of Lucy's wonderful post here too, as she is someone who also "gets" John Lennon and your friend may learn something from Lucy's post. I mean, seriously -- if a person says she loves John's music but then suddenly decides she's turned off to his music because she watched a documentary about John and she learns that he did some bad things like ANY Human beings do, what can one say? She should learn that this only ENHANCES John's music. Tell her to listen to Aisumasen. John, you said yourself: "A good friend of mine, a songwriter herself, has always been an enthusiastic John Lennon fan even though she has not read a lot about his life. She goes 99% by his music in her enthusiasm about him. Well, she watched this documentary last night and now she thinks that John was a big egomaniac "prick" and it lessens her opinion of his music!
I just chuckled as John lost at least one fan by this documentary."I understand that this woman is a personal friend of yours, so I am sorry my opinion here may offend you. But you admit she "has not read a lot about John's life," and then you say her opinion of his music is now "lessened" because she discovered through the NYC documentary that Lennon did some negative things like any human being occasionally does (none of us are perfect). Just putting your personal feelings for your friend aside for a moment, John, wouldn't you say she missed the essence of Lennon? And that the beauty of much of John's music was because of his pain, flaws, doubts, anger, "prickiness", etc? I just think she misses the whole point. I think you can help her appreciate Lennon even MORE by learning. And as I and LENNONYC clearly pointed out and showed,John also did more *good* things than bad!
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nine
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Post by nine on Nov 25, 2010 7:33:35 GMT -5
Joe, I saw the doc last evening as well and I have to say it does put Yoko in a different light for me. Now I still think she was out to snag John in 1968 for reasons more than just love at first site, she knew exactly which "buttons" to push to get John interested in her, as well as her insensitivity at putting herself in the studio with the band during the making of their last three albums, making the others very uncomfortable. Even if John wanted her there, she knew it was not the right thing to do and should have insisted John go to the studio alone when working with the others. But watching last evening it certainly showed John for the insensitive prick he was when Nixon won re-election in 1972, and John and Yoko went to the party where John grabbed a girl and proceeded to have sex with her in an adjacent room while Yoko and the others had to "listen" to the activity through the walls, completely embarrassing Yoko. I would have done more than send him off to LA on a Lost Weekend with his secretary as "punishment" for the event. But we all know how insensitive John could be toward just about anybody, friend, foe, even wives. It's no wonder he had relatively few close friends. After seeing "Nowhere Boy", one can see how screwed up John was, given his upbringing, and the chips on his shoulder were quite sizable as a result. Everyone he knew paid a price for those chips. Yoko came across quite well in last evening's documentary, probably better here than anything else written or filmed about her association with John. Kudos to her for her mature commentary on all subjects she spoke about in the documentary. BTW, It's a shame Paul was not interviewed for the documentary to give his opinions on John during this period, given he did see him occasionally in NYC and LA. Yoko's plea at the end of the documentary of "He was an artist, why did you have to kill him?" is quite moving and jarring in its delivery, especially as she was off camera at the moment she made this comment. It left me speechless at the end of the show for quite a while. It is quite a good essay on John's decade after The Beatles, and I believe it is already available on DVD at PBS' website if you want to order it. It was *not* insensitive of Yoko at all,if she didn't do as *John requested* of her to go with him to The Beatles recording sessions,he likely would just not have gone at all anymore! And I don't believe that Yoko didn't love John from the very beginning and was out to snag John for other reasons besides loving him.Ignorant people who actually still claim that Yoko keeps putting out John merchandise just to make money(she doesn't really need more money anyway,John was a millionaire,and she made and still makes some of her own money from her work as an artist herself in addition) off of his memory are so totally wrong! I always knew that she does it because she still loves John very deeply,and she wants to keep his memory alive as the great music artist and art artist he really was because he was so tragically killed at only age 40 by a crazy fan.And I was always right,because I recently read an old interview with her on this very site where she says pretty much excatly what I said. If she clearly recognised that he was a great artist why did she think she was his equal? She continues to release his stuff with fanfare because it gets her in the spotlight which was what she always wanted but didn't have the talent to do.
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