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Post by Panther on Aug 1, 2011 16:24:02 GMT -5
I quite like the track "Angela" on Some Time in New York City.
Nice melody, and Yoko's contribution is effective, maybe because it's a song about the oppression of a woman (the less said about Yoko's contribution to "The Luck of the Irish", the better).
"Woman is the Nigger...", "New York City", and "John Sinclair" are also great tracks.
In fact, I think these four tracks are more interesting than anything on Mind Games and Walls & Bridges (except maybe "#9 Dream").
Am I mad?
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Post by mikev on Aug 1, 2011 17:10:55 GMT -5
I quite like the track "Angela" on Some Time in New York City. Nice melody, and Yoko's contribution is effective, maybe because it's a song about the oppression of a woman (the less said about Yoko's contribution to "The Luck of the Irish", the better). "Woman is the Nigger...", "New York City", and "John Sinclair" are also great tracks. In fact, I think these four tracks are more interesting than anything on Mind Games and Walls & Bridges (except maybe "#9 Dream"). Am I mad? The music on STINYC is superb, the melodies including Yoko's pretty good. The subject matter is far left, preachy and now dated.
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Post by ursamajor on Aug 1, 2011 21:39:32 GMT -5
No you're not mad Panther, I absolutely love Angela on STINYC, great melody and great production, like mikev said it's the subject matter overall on the album that is too specific. I have always said that this had the potential to be John's (and Yoko's) greatest solo album.
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Post by Panther on Aug 2, 2011 11:46:59 GMT -5
The subject matter is far left However, I don't consider that a bad thing! The "preachiness" is not debatable, though. You're right about that. And how "dated" it is... hmm, because all the songs were topical, the album was already dated by the time it was released! However, this "datedness" is actually part of its appeal now.
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Post by acebackwords on Aug 2, 2011 13:02:19 GMT -5
The subject matter is far left However, I don't consider that a bad thing! The "preachiness" is not debatable, though. You're right about that. And how "dated" it is... hmm, because all the songs were topical, the album was already dated by the time it was released! However, this "datedness" is actually part of its appeal now. And the "datedness" was part of the concept, what with the New York Times cover art take-off. The album is as dated as yesterday's newspapers. But no, Lennon's whole radical chic act was one of the most repulsive things to come out of the '60s for my tastes. P.S. If some of you knew the true story behind Angela Davis -- as opposed to Lennon's half-bright rhetoric -- I doubt you'd find the song quite so appealing.
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Aug 2, 2011 13:29:09 GMT -5
I love the melody, and I love the dual singing by JohnandYoko and their intensity.
The subject matter is debatable.
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Post by acebackwords on Aug 2, 2011 15:13:29 GMT -5
If anybody is interested in the real story about Angela Davis I highly reccomend the book "Destructive Generation" by Horowitz and Collier.
Angela Davis's one claim to fame was that she was the girlfriend of George Jackson. Jackson was, among other things, a vicious thug, a murderer, and a jailhouse pimp. Angela Davis was most likely the one who helped smuggle in the machine gun into San Quentin in a botched attempt to free Jackson which resulted in six deaths and set off a prison riot. Angela Davis and George Jackson were mostly turned into "revolutionary heroes" thanks to the book "George Jackson's Prison Diaries" -- a book that was mostly ghost-written by a white Berkeley radical activist named Faye Stender who had a crush on Jackson. Stender would later repudiate her own book as total bullshit after she was shot and paralyzed for life by one of George Jackson's "comrades" for "betraying the revolution." Shortly after, Stender committed suicide. So thats the kind of "revolutionary heroes" we're talking about here.
But the myth of Angela Davis and George Jackson lives on to this day largely thanks to bullshit books and songs written by dim-wits.
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Post by stavros on Aug 2, 2011 15:23:45 GMT -5
I can visualise the Carpenters singing a cover version back in the day. ;D
I was totally put off after one listen of SINYC and have never gone back to it.
BUT....this is actually a very nice track. I really don't understand all the political background to the song.
But this could with a re-worked lyric have easily graced Mind Games or Walls & Bridges.
Good ears Panther.
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Post by acebackwords on Aug 2, 2011 16:17:33 GMT -5
"Angela" by John Lennon
Angela, they put you in prison Angela, they shot down your man Angela, you're one of the millions of political prisoners in the world
Sister, there's wind that never dies Sister, we're breathing together Sister, our loves and hopes forever keep on moving oh so slowly in the world
Angela, can you hear the earth turning? Angela, the world watches you
Angela, you soon will be returning to your sisters and brothers of the world
Sister, you're still a people teacher Sister, your word reaches far Sister, there's a million different races but we all share the same future in the world
They gave you sunshine They gave you sea They gave you everything but the jailhouse key They gave you coffee They gave you tea They gave you everything but equality
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Post by acebackwords on Aug 2, 2011 16:18:02 GMT -5
Right on, sister!
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Post by Panther on Aug 2, 2011 19:19:48 GMT -5
Angela Davis's one claim to fame was that she was the girlfriend of George Jackson. Sorry, but that is just stupid. To begin with, Angela Davis was a notable scholar and academic (studied in Europe, worked in California) before encountering George Jackson. Then, she became a 'cause celebre' locally because Ronald Reagan's office fired her for being a member of the Communist Party, while daring to... ( gasp!) teach philosophy at UCLA (gotta love American freedoms). This all happened and was in the media long before the George Jackson's-little-brother-prison-break-attempt (after which, Angela Davis hilariously became of the FBI's 'Ten Most Wanted'). Jackson was, among other things, a vicious thug, a murderer, and a jailhouse pimp. There isn't the slightest shred of evidence to support even one of those (right-wing, sexist) accusations. Angela Davis was most likely the one who helped smuggle in the machine gun into San Quentin in a botched attempt to free Jackson which resulted in six deaths and set off a prison riot. At the end of the day, nobody knows if she knew the first thing about that planned prison break (the state of California tried to sell this, obviously). Given the militarism of the times, it's conceivably possible... but I doubt it. I just can't see a hugely intelligent professor with a worldly outlook believing that a kid with a gun could break into Soledad Maximum Security prison and get away with his older brother in tow. Doesn't add up. Angela Davis and George Jackson were mostly turned into "revolutionary heroes" thanks to the book "George Jackson's Prison Diaries" -- a book that was mostly ghost-written by a white Berkeley radical activist named Faye Stender who had a crush on Jackson. I know nothing about this book -- it may be as bad as you claim -- but to suggest that they became "revolutionary heroes" because of that book is completely absurd. The moment Angela Davis went on the 'most wanted list', she became a "revolutionary hero". It had nothing to do with a book. But the myth of Angela Davis and George Jackson lives on to this day largely thanks to bullshit books and songs written by dim-wits. Like Bob Dylan, that noted dimwit who eulogized George Jackson in song? In fact, I tend to agree with you (dare I say it) that George Jackson was a false-idol. He had spent 1/2 his life in prison and had probably lost touch with reality completely -- he actually thought the revolution was imminent on the outside, not realizing that nothing much had really changed since he'd gone to prison as a 17-year-old. Angela Davis has subsequently come out as a lesbian (no big surprise), so this combined with the rhetoric that was attributed to George Jackson in his book (which was almost certainly ghost-written by her, or someone else) leads me to think that she was not really in love with him -- they never even physically met -- and probably more-or-less used him as a heroic image with which to symbolize the Black Liberation Movement. In short, George Jackson was just a dumb kid who briefly thought the revolution was coming. But yes, I agree that he was, in the end, a murderer with a lot of blood on his hands -- he, in fact, confessed to his own lawyer that he himself murdered the Soledad guard who was strangled to death in the attempted prison break. Like some other Black symbols of resistance (Nat Turner, another nutter, comes to mind), George Jackson's significance is probably to do with his symbolism in the specific time in which he was a person of note. But to suggest that Angela Davis is entirely guilty of murder, or that the two of them were only famous due to some woman's book, is completely false and absurd.
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Post by acebackwords on Aug 3, 2011 12:26:34 GMT -5
Panther, maybe I'm mis-reading you but I'm confused. You claim there's no evidence George Jackson was a murderer? Hell, he bragged about it, as you acknowledge later in your post. And how is that "sexist" calling a man who bragged about being a jailhouse pimp a jailhouse pimp? Then you concede he was a "false idol" and "just a dumb kid." Which was the one and only point I was trying to make here (so I'm glad we agree on that). And yes, I do believe Dylan was a dim-wit to eulogize in song a guy like that. Correct me if I'm wrong.
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Post by Panther on Aug 3, 2011 16:49:58 GMT -5
Sorry, my "sexist" comment, above, was mis-placed. Please ignore it. However, I do take some issue with your assertion that Jackson was a "vicious thug" and a "jailhouse pimp". I mean, do we really know that? You could be right, but let's not add further insult to a dead man unless we know it to be totally accurate.
I was taking more issue with your denigration of Angela Davis, which I think is fairly unfounded. After all, the legal system did exonerate her of all charges. And the John Lennon song is about her, not about George Jackson. As I said, Davis and Jackson didn't even physically meet.
At the end of the day, do I think George Jackson was a good guy? Not at all. I suspect he was a quite intelligent but deluded man who was (according to all accounts) anti-social and probably somewhat sociopathic. But his significance (in his time) is more to do with what he symbolized, and that's what people like Bob Dylan were thinking about. Symbolically, he's just another one of the thousands of black men driven to crime and then neutered by the prison system, but he's exceptional in that he educated himself and wrote about it. I realize this "symbolic" power is no panacea to the families of victims he (may have) murdered in prison, but I'm just pointing it out to explain that his significance is arguably bigger than he himself. At the individual level, I concede he was probably* a vicious murderer.
*(Note that I wrote "probably".)
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Post by acebackwords on Aug 3, 2011 18:15:18 GMT -5
Well, there's numerous first-hand accounts of Jackson bragging about being a jailhouse pimp. He was proud of it. He was quite the operator.
As for Angela Davis, she was lovers with Jackson.
And on her Wikepedia page it states: "Davis had purchased the firearm used in the attack two days prior" at the Marin County courtroom where 6 people ended up killed. But its true she was found innocent by the courts. Does that mean she wasn't deeply involved in the whole sordid scenerio? I doubt it.
I know this is in the realm of opinion, but I still maintain Angela Davis's only real claim to fame was her sensational involvement with the Jackson prison escape. I do know this. Almost nobody had heard of Angela Davis before that. And I doubt many people would know who she was today if not for that. And I don't mean to downgrade Davis's accomplishments as a professor, but obscure college professors are a dime a dozen.
I will add, STINYC may be bullshit as politics, but it also may be brilliant as a piece of art. Lennon perfectly captures all the attitudes, fashions, and cliches of that era. As always.
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Post by acebackwords on Aug 3, 2011 18:22:37 GMT -5
P.S. Personally, I'm not big on symbolism. I'm more interested in reality. Whatever the hell that is. And I especially loathe when they turn "false idols" (as you described it) into symbolic hero figures. Dats a slippery slope.
True, I never met Jackson or Davis. This is all my second hand conjecture. But one reason I loved the book "Destructive Generation" by Collier and Horowitz was because they all deeply knew the figures we're talking about. They published RAMPARTS magazine in the '60s -- one of the most popular radical political magazines of that era. They were exactly the types -- like Lennon and Dylan later -- that romanticized and mythologized and bullshitized all these figures. They were true believers in the Revolution, man. That is until Huey Newton murdered a good friend of theirs (They loaned the Panthers their accountant, this young woman, to help unscramble the Panthers books. It is strongly believed they killed her and dumped her body in the Bay because they got nervous about some of the things she was discovering about how Huey was actually spending all the money that was flooding into the Panthers' coffers back then). After that, Collier and Horowitz were no longer quite as strong believers in that radical pablum. And I found their book to be an honest, and painful, assessment of that period.
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Post by John S. Damm on Aug 3, 2011 22:04:10 GMT -5
I think "Angela" is a great song well sung by John and Yoko.
I always thought that Sinéad O'Connor would be awesome singing Yoko's part while some male like Bono taking John's part.
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Post by beatleroadie on Aug 4, 2011 15:08:34 GMT -5
Which song was released/recorded first:
John's "Angela" or the Stones' "Sweet Black Angel"?
John and Yoko visited the Stones in France while they were recording Exile on Main Street. I wonder if Davis' situation came up in conversation or if either already had their song written and inspired the other to write one for her too?
Anyone know???
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Post by Panther on Aug 4, 2011 15:17:23 GMT -5
If Wikipedia can be trusted, it states that 'Sweet Black Angel' was recorded sometime between Dec. 1971 and March 1972. By comparison, the Some Time in New York City album is almost exactly contemporaneous, recorded from Nov. 1971 to March 1972. So, who knows?
Mick's lyrics to 'Sweet Black Angel' are kind of ambiguous, and not specifically referencing Angela Davis, although it's pretty clear in this part: "She countin' up de minutes, She countin' up de days, She's a sweet black angel, Not a gun toting teacher, Not a Red lovin' school mom, Ain't someone gonna free her, Free de sweet black slave."
The less said about the lyrics to John and Yoko's song, the better! Okay, but here are some of them: "They gave you sunshine They gave you sea They gave you everything but the jailhouse key They gave you coffee They gave you tea They gave you everything but equality
Angela, can you hear the earth is turning? Angela, the world watches you Angela, you soon will be returning to your sisters and brothers in the world."
(Gag!) That "jailhouse key" rhyme has got to be John's worst since "'til the cows come home".
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Post by Panther on Aug 4, 2011 15:19:46 GMT -5
Just to add: in fairness to John and Yoko, I do think their intention on STINYC was to write really simple, obvious lyrics that would be understood by kids and the common man on the street. However, they still failed! There is a difference between simple and good lyrics, and simple and stupid...
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Post by acebackwords on Aug 4, 2011 16:39:12 GMT -5
Just to add: in fairness to John and Yoko, I do think their intention on STINYC was to write really simple, obvious lyrics that would be understood by kids and the common man on the street. However, they still failed! There is a difference between simple and good lyrics, and simple and stupid... I would have to agree. Brilliant art but dim-witted politics in my opinion. If I had to sum up the level of political thinking on STINYC in one paragraph I'd put it this way. At the release of the album John & Yoko started calling impassioned press conferences urging for the release of all the prisoners (oh excuse me, "political prisoners") at Attica State. Plugging their latest hit single and saving the world all in one sound byte. (Lennon had only been living in America for about 6 months at this point but he was already ready to completely revamp our criminal justice system -- whatta' guy!) I doubt Yoko feels quite as much fervor about the issue nowadays what with Mark David Chapman being one of the political prisoners currently incarcerated at Attica.
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Post by acebackwords on Aug 4, 2011 16:42:01 GMT -5
And by the way, thats what this had been all about. With the Angela Davis's of the world urging for the release of all the George Jacksons and the other murderous thugs that were behind bars back then. "By any means necessary" as the saying went back then. By machine guns or stupid pop songs.
P.S. And is anybody surprised that both Mick and John would release similar songs at the same time? If there ever were faithful followers of fashion it was those two.
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Post by Panther on Aug 4, 2011 19:31:21 GMT -5
Acebackworks, you are aware that there is a difference between a "political prisoner" and a murderer, aren't you?
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Post by Jason I on Aug 5, 2011 6:55:18 GMT -5
I love the songs in this period. If anyone hasn't already watched it, definitly check out the Lennon NYC documentry. It covers a lot of this albums recording sessions and gets interviews from those around at that time.
For me, there's some really good songs on this album that for whatever reason, weren't produced to their strengths. Looking at wiki: John, Yoko & Phil Spector were down as the producers, so it's the same team behing P.O.B and 'Imagine', yet god it sounds like an utter dirge. According to members of Elephants Memory there was an obscene amount of drug taking in these sessions, and you do wonder if that explains the lacklustre production.
'New York City' for instance, is one of Lennons greatest rockers. The lyrics are crafted beautfifully in Chuck Berry style. It should be up there with the likes of 'Come Together' and 'Ballad For John And Yoko', but it's sadly covered in this dirgy gloop.
As a song, I really like 'Attica State'. I love the activist lyric (and sound, too).
Compare Johns sincere vocal of 'Woman Is The Nigger Of The World' sung on the Dick Cavett show, and compare it to the album version. Again, just too much stuff clogging up the track, taking away from Johns incredible vocal and melody.
'Born In A Prison' is one of my favourite Yoko tracks. And one of the few times where Johns voice fits so well with her with his chorus harmonies.
'Luck Of The Irish' is a GREAT song imo. What a pity it had to be recorded in these godawful sessions. Beautiful lyric, gorgeous melody. I came across this gorgeous version on YT a few years ago, recorded by Italians bizarrely enough, and was blown away. Listen to this cover with its great string playing to see what could have been, perhaps:
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Post by sayne on Aug 5, 2011 11:03:17 GMT -5
If anybody is interested in the real story about Angela Davis I highly reccomend the book "Destructive Generation" by Horowitz and Collier . . . Didn't really want to get into this until I read this. First, my bias: There is no difference between a terrorist and a freedom fighter, or a left-wing revolutionary and a right-wing reactionary. Having said that, there is no doubt that George Jackson was a very dangerous man who did very bad things. But, he was not born that way. Before one reads my next statement, one should process the parenthetical that precedes it. Although it is absolutely no excuse for what he did and does not let him off the hook, it is no doubt that social/political/historical/economic/racial circumstances contributed to creating THAT man. Knowing his upbringing, it's no wonder that he was fast-tracked to a life in prison. It is also not surprising that the prison system, as administered, is NOT a place for changing ones behavior for most people, Hurricane Carter and Nelson Mandela, notwithstanding. George Jackson was no hero, but it does not take away the issues he and Angela Davis spoke and wrote about - the institutional inequities in the legal and prison system, and institutional crimes against the disenfranchised. There are reasons why crack is punished greater than cocaine, and it's not because of quantity. There is a reason why (historically - and don't throw OJ at me) the murder of a white person gets a greater punishment than the murder of a black person, why blacks who murder will get a greater punishment than a white who murders, and why small-time robberies are punished greater than white-collar and institutional crimes. Does anyone really think that a 20 year-old poor black man would have gotten the same treatment as Paris Hilton or Lindsay Lohan for alcohol/drug use, parole violations, and petty theft? Perhaps none of us would have either, but I'm sure "certain" people would get the book thrown at them more than others - with all things being equal except race. And, about Angela Davis specifically, she was acquitted AND it was her politics that made her a "cause celebre." She was "dangerous" to society, not for what she did, but because of what she said and how she said it. Smart outsiders are always a threat to comfortable insiders.
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Post by acebackwords on Aug 5, 2011 11:38:16 GMT -5
Acebackworks, you are aware that there is a difference between a "political prisoner" and a murderer, aren't you? Yes I am. I was making a joke and a point. The point being that people like John-and-Yoko and Bob Dylan and many many other of these '60s radical activists obviously COULDN'T tell the difference back then.
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Post by Panther on Aug 5, 2011 11:55:32 GMT -5
The point being that people like John-and-Yoko and Bob Dylan and many many other of these '60s radical activists obviously COULDN'T tell the difference back then. That may be true. Let's all bear in mind, however, that the song in question is about ANGELA DAVIS, not about George Jackson.
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Post by acebackwords on Aug 5, 2011 11:58:12 GMT -5
The point being that people like John-and-Yoko and Bob Dylan and many many other of these '60s radical activists obviously COULDN'T tell the difference back then. That may be true. Let's all bear in mind, however, that the song in question is about ANGELA DAVIS, not about George Jackson. And let me make the point that though Davis was found innocent of smuggling in that machine gun, I personally feel she was heavily involved in the incident as well as being partially responsible for the ensuing deaths and riots.
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Post by Panther on Aug 5, 2011 11:59:13 GMT -5
'Luck Of The Irish' is a GREAT song imo. What a pity it had to be recorded in these godawful sessions. Beautiful lyric, gorgeous melody. I appreciate your other points, but do you really consider these lyrics (written by a middle-class British guy living in New York with help from a rich Japanese, no less) to be "beautiful"?: If we could make chains with the morning dew The world would be like Galway Bay Let's walk over rainbows like leprechauns The world would be one big Blarney stone
Why the hell are the English there anyway? As they kill with God on their side Blame it all on the kids and the IRA As the bastards commit genocide! Aye! Aye! Genocide!
If you had the luck of the Irish You'd be sorry and wish you was deadI'm sure the Irish appreciated John's telling the world that if people were them, they'd rather be dead. And don't get me started on Yoko and the blarney stone...
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Post by acebackwords on Aug 5, 2011 11:59:13 GMT -5
The point being that people like John-and-Yoko and Bob Dylan and many many other of these '60s radical activists obviously COULDN'T tell the difference back then. That may be true. Let's all bear in mind, however, that the song in question is about ANGELA DAVIS, not about George Jackson. And let me also make the point that you were the one who brought up the George Jackson song by Dylan, so I was also commenting on that song in question.
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Post by acebackwords on Aug 5, 2011 12:02:54 GMT -5
I love the songs in this period. If anyone hasn't already watched it, definitly check out the Lennon NYC documentry. It covers a lot of this albums recording sessions and gets interviews from those around at that time. Another great visual counterpoint to the STINYC album is the series of appearances John and Yoko make on the Mike Douglas Show during that period (I believe its been released as a box-set, and you can also find some of it on youtube. For those of you too young to remember Mike Douglas he was sort of a Johnny Carson wannabe who hosted a bland afternoon talk show mostly geared towards middle American housewives. Douglas invited JohnandYoko to co-host the show for a week. So it was quite surreal when the Lennons invited all their radical revolutionary friends to appear as guests on the show. People like Abbie Hoffman, Jerry Rubin, Black Panthers, etc. Plus, a great duet between John and Chuck Berry, his youthful idol.
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