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Post by joeyself on Aug 13, 2011 22:46:43 GMT -5
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Post by scousette on Aug 13, 2011 23:56:44 GMT -5
Thank goodness he and his wife are OK. What a tragedy. Thanks for the update, Joey.
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Post by John S. Damm on Aug 14, 2011 1:50:10 GMT -5
Hey folks, as Joey wrote above, my wife and I were in attendance and witnessed the collapse at a scheduled Sugarland concert of the stage rigging which included a roof frame supported by major steel beams which also supported the left and right hanging speakers and a huge round video monitor. At least four have been killed with scores of serious injuries.
A severe storm hit suddenly although it was apparent as the very dark clouds approached the Indiana State Fairgrounds. My wife and I were in the Grandstand, center to stage, in the first few rows of the second tier.
Sara Bareilles opened with a lively 45 minute set that started precisely at 7:30 p.m. She finished at 8:15 p.m. and when she started it was a beautiful night although clouds were in the distance.
By 8:30 p.m. the stage was ready for main act Sugarland and the weather truly looked scary. A DJ for an Indy country radio station came on stage and said that there were reports of storms but the band would try to start the show and maybe the storm would miss us. He said that if it did rain or storm, the crowd was to calmly go to one of several old but solid fieldhouses and maybe the show, if delayed, could be resumed after the storm passed.
There was thus no real warning and certainly no order to evacuate before the tragedy. The DJ said the storm could even miss us.
What worried my wife and I were the folks with weather apps on their smart phones and the radar image was horrifying: we were in the direct path of solid red, not a good radar image.
Five minutes after the DJ spoke, maybe 8:45 p.m., the weather got very dark and my wife was scared and I made the decision that we were leaving right then. We negotiated down our row to the aisle and headed down to the main aisle that divides lower Grandstand from upper Grandstand. We were close to the steep steps that lead under the Grandstand when the high winds hit and dirt from the horse racing track was fierce. The "Floor" seats consisted of the "Sugarpit" which was an area closest to the stage right on the dirt track. Right behind the Sugarpit were seats also on the track
As we were about to go towards the rampart(the step steps), I thought we got hit by a tornado and we heard mass screaming and I looked to the stage and the canvas roof was ripping apart and then in seeming slow-motion, the whole rigging/frame started to fall towards stage-left to my complete horror and I saw it crash upon the helpless folks in the Sugarpit(the folks standing) and, it seemed, part of the seating part right behind. We were right there at the center and I saw the outer edge of the roof just engulf and crush people who minutes before were having fun, dancing and cheering the opening act.
I literally grabbed my wife and we negotiated the steep stairs with a scary thrust of the crowd behind us trying to escape the Grandstand. We exited the Grandstand and crossed the street to a solid brick fieldhouse. We were still in a violent storm and the crowd was pushing in the entrance doors to the fieldhouse and I was worried of a stampede. People always get crushed in the doorways so I again just grabbed my wife and got her inside. She was an emotional basket-case having seen what I did which was the death and injury of many people.
We in the Grandstand could not get onto the track. Only those on the track had access to the rescue effort. In fact, the police were keeping young men and women from the Grandstand from jumping down from the elevated stands onto the track to help.
I saw about two minutes of the aftermath before going down the steep steps and it was the most God-awful sight I ever saw other than actually seeing the towers initial fall and people literally disappearing under the mass. Men, women and children were crushed/trapped under that massive steel roof frame. Yet people on the track united and were already lifting huge steel beams in unison withing 60 seconds.
We stayed in the fieldhouse for over an hour due to the storm and the rush and congestion of rescue vehicles in the Fairground streets.
I am stunned, shocked and saddened. I now realize that I have had a sheltered life and have never seen just what the hell I saw tonight.
I am a lapsed Roman Catholic but I prayed silently for the victims and many around us openly huddled in prayer. I tried to stay strong for my wife who was distraught. She is a small, petite woman and getting her safely out of a frantic Grandstand and then safely into the Fieldhouse with the rushing, increasingly pushing crowd was my only thought.
We sat in the Pepsi Coliseum waiting for the storm and the emergency traffic to subside and I just stared at the banner proclaiming that this was the site of The Beatles only Indiana concerts. It was calming to me so even in this time of trouble, The Beatles were there for me in a way.
Wow, this concert was to be a treat for my wife and I bought the tickets months ago. It is a true tragedy and my prayers go out to all the victims and their families.
I must say I was comforted by my "family" from here and elsewhere as I got texts from ChuckE and Joey asking about our well-being. Thanks guys and thanks scousette for your thoughts expressed above. Same with a message I got from MikeV.
Beer is not served at the Indiana State Fair, even at the concerts, and the first thing I did upon getting home was pound some beers to calm my nerves as we watched the videos on the news.
Shaken but safe.
JSD
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wooltonian
Very Clean
"Football isn't a matter of life and death - it's much more important than that." Bill Shankly.
Posts: 796
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Post by wooltonian on Aug 14, 2011 3:42:03 GMT -5
How apalling. I could hardly believe what I was reading. What a terrible tragedy. Glad you and Mrs. JSD made it out safely.
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Post by vectisfabber on Aug 14, 2011 5:50:33 GMT -5
I'm so glad you and Donna are safe, John, and I hope you can both come to terms with your experience fairly well. And positive thoughts towards those who have been harmed or affected by this.
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Post by winstonoboogie on Aug 14, 2011 9:52:50 GMT -5
I'm also glad you and your wife made it out of there safely. Our prayers are with all of you! I also agree with the other posters. I don't have your phone # so I couldn't have texted you! But I'm glad you're safe! May God be with all of you.
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Post by Snookeroo on Aug 14, 2011 12:19:34 GMT -5
A horrific tragedy. My heart goes out to the victims. I’m glad you and yours made it out OK John. Thank God.
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Post by sayne on Aug 14, 2011 13:18:46 GMT -5
Whoa. Very compelling story. Saw the clip before knowing about you being there. It looked awful. Can't imagine what it looked and sounded like in person. My heart, too, goes out to everyone there. Glad you and your wife are safe, albeit shaken. It's good that you had the good sense to leave your seats early. www.rollingstone.com/music/news/stage-collapse-at-indiana-state-fair-kills-four-injures-dozens-20110814?link=mostpopular4Isn't this the second or third stage collapse this year? One with Cheap Trick actually on stage? You know, when my wife goes to a public place, whether it's a restaurant, movie, concert, baseball game, museum, she ALWAYS looks for the "escape" routes. I keep kidding her, but now . . .
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Post by John S. Damm on Aug 14, 2011 13:41:00 GMT -5
Thanks Woolie, Vectis and Winston. Winnie, the cell-phones were useless from overuseage so we could not have connected even if we'd tried. I got ChuckE and Joey's texts once we got north of Indy.
Five are now dead, the fifth victim one of the lightmen in the riggings that collapsed. There appeared to me to be at least four crew in the stage riggings before the storm hit suddenly. In fact, two were trying to scramble down rope ladders when it came down.
Indiana Governor Daniels is calling the weather a "freak" incident and praising the emergency responders and the citizens already on the track in the floor seats who responded before the "official" responders got there. I agree with all of that.
Yet the show was not canceled or delayed and the audience asked to leave orderly to the relative safety of the well-built fieldhouses before all hell broke loose. There was at least a 20 minute window where we could see the black wall of clouds coming from the West and when the hurricane speed gust hit. The officials had computers, access to the most update weather reports, etc. and it was Saturday night, only 8:30 p.m. when the stage was ready for Sugarland. All hell broke loose at maybe 8:50 p.m. but at 8:30 p.m. it was already looking scary.
The Fair/Concert officials had the best information possible and they should have delayed for an hour at least the concert at 8:30 p.m. when it was clear Sugarland wasn't going to start on-time. They could have emptied the entire track area as the Grandstand and work on the Grandstand too.
Even after we watched the Stage Riggings and Roof collapse, my wife and I thought that we were still in what might have been a tornado. Yeah, we survived the stage structure collapse but what else was coming? In my mind were thoughts of Joplin MS and a tornado would wipe out even a permanent structure. It was a wild 10 minutes or so.
There was NO order or even recommendation to leave the Grandstand or track(floor seating) before the tragedy despite what is being reported and what some officials are claiming. The DJ onstage did discuss leaving to fieldhouses "if" the storm hit and "delayed" the show. He was clear that the show was going to try and start and even said the storm could miss us. He was reassuring when maybe we could have used some firmness in delaying the show an hour or so with people asked to leave the track area.
I am not bitter or mad because the actual storm hit suddenly but the officials had all the weather info, more than we in the audience did, but more could have been done. It is interesting that right to our West and in the same path of the storm was a Ferris Wheel and another Tall Tower Ride(where riders are hauled to the top and dropped quickly)and those suffered no damage whatsoever. It is thought that the straight-line wind hit right at the spot of the Stage and massive rigging structure.
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Post by John S. Damm on Aug 14, 2011 14:09:56 GMT -5
I appreciate the words of comfort Snooks and sayne.
I just watched a CNN report and the newscaster repeated the false claim that we were given a four minute warning to leave. As the young woman who filmed the collapse corrected her, there was no such "warning to leave" but a warning it could storm and if the show was delayed we "could" go to fieldhouses right behind the Grandstand.
The guy said the storm could miss us and he clearly said Sugarland intended to start the concert which kept many glued to their seats. My wife and I stayed for several more minutes but as noted, we made the decision things were going to get dangerous real quick and made it to the main aisle at least(thus close to the rampart) when all hell broke loose.
I want to add as we waited in line to exit the Grandstand facility and then enter the Fieldhouse many people were laughing and acting like it was a romp, a little bad weather. I got really agitated and my wife had to calm me down but it later became clear many people had no idea the stage structure had collapsed: they were thinking the show was delayed. These folks had taken shelter under the Grandstand and hadn't seen what happened. When the crying females and walking wounded started streaming into the Fieldhouse, there was no more laughing or joking. They truly didn't know at first.
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Post by Steve Marinucci on Aug 14, 2011 16:19:16 GMT -5
John, very glad that you and your wife are ok. My wife and I had a similar experience in '89. We were at Candlestick Park when the earthquake hit before game 3 of the Giants-A's World Series. There wasn't much damage in the park, but the place shook. We could see the fire in the Marina District as we left. Took us six hours to get home, normally a 50 minute drive. Glad you guys got out of there. My hearts go out to the families of the dead and injured.
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Post by sayne on Aug 14, 2011 16:31:40 GMT -5
. . . many people were laughing and acting like it was a romp, a little bad weather . . . Kinda like the people before Noah's flood.
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Post by Steve Marinucci on Aug 14, 2011 17:34:40 GMT -5
Isn't this the second or third stage collapse this year? One with Cheap Trick actually on stage? Brian Ray mentioned on Twitter that Rick Nielsen had shown him some video of that.
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Post by Steve Marinucci on Aug 14, 2011 17:50:59 GMT -5
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Post by OldFred on Aug 14, 2011 18:28:59 GMT -5
Johnny, I am so glad that you and your wife are safe. I've seen the news footage of the collapse and it looked horrible, to have actually been an eye witness to it I know was worse. I still remember seeing the World Trade Center towers burning from a distance and then seeing the towers were gone.
My thoughts and prayers are with you and your wife and the victims of this tragedy. Stay safe, my friend.
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lowbasso
A Hard Day's Knight
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Post by lowbasso on Aug 14, 2011 21:34:31 GMT -5
Whoa. Very compelling story. Saw the clip before knowing about you being there. It looked awful. Can't imagine what it looked and sounded like in person. My heart, too, goes out to everyone there. Glad you and your wife are safe, albeit shaken. It's good that you had the good sense to leave your seats early. www.rollingstone.com/music/news/stage-collapse-at-indiana-state-fair-kills-four-injures-dozens-20110814?link=mostpopular4Isn't this the second or third stage collapse this year? One with Cheap Trick actually on stage? You know, when my wife goes to a public place, whether it's a restaurant, movie, concert, baseball game, museum, she ALWAYS looks for the "escape" routes. I keep kidding her, but now . . . It happened in Ottawa, Canada on July 17 at a Blues Festival, also due to straight line winds from an impending storm. Luckily no one was killed there, but it is clear these makeshift music stages are not designed to withstand severe winds contained in thunderstorms. The Ottawa incident was clearly a warning not heeded and now there has been a tragedy with lives lost as a result. Isn't it obvious that these rigged-up stages at outdoor music festivals or State Fairs should be immediately banned in areas that thunderstorms are common affairs? It's a no-brainer.
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Post by John S. Damm on Aug 14, 2011 22:37:30 GMT -5
Johnny, I am so glad that you and your wife are safe. I've seen the news footage of the collapse and it looked horrible, to have actually been an eye witness to it I know was worse. I still remember seeing the World Trade Center towers burning from a distance and then seeing the towers were gone. My thoughts and prayers are with you and your wife and the victims of this tragedy. Stay safe, my friend. Thanks Steve and OldFred! You guys(and others here) lived through those horrific events of such a huge proportion. Fred, like in NYC on 9/11, the cell-phone system got overtaxed there in that area and we couldn't get calls or texts out. My first texts(not delivered) went out at 8:55 p.m. when we were safely in a fieldhouse holding the most beautiful horses one ever saw. The Indiana State Fair is in progress. We made our way 30 minutes later to the Pepsi Coliseum where The Beatles played two shows on September 3, 1964, so we could sit. That Coliseum was the site of the other huge State Fair disaster in 1963 when a popcorn machine caused propane tanks to explode, killing over 70 people during an Ice Capades show. www.indystar.com/article/99999999/NEWS06/80817011In a horrible coincidence, one of the fatalities is a woman named Tammy Vandam, 42, Wanatah, Indiana. Wanatah Indiana is a small town of maybe 750 people in LaPorte County in N.W. Indiana and is the town my family moved to in September 1979 from Merrillville, Indiana. I was 16 and a Junior in High School. My Dad wanted to move from the suburbs of Lake County to the country. My folks lived there until 1989. I still have many strong connections there including my best friends from high school. But that is a bizarre coincident because Wanatah is so small. I did not know Ms. Vandam or her family but my thoughts and prayers go out to her and her family and the other victims.
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Post by John S. Damm on Aug 14, 2011 23:03:09 GMT -5
Whoa. Very compelling story. Saw the clip before knowing about you being there. It looked awful. Can't imagine what it looked and sounded like in person. My heart, too, goes out to everyone there. Glad you and your wife are safe, albeit shaken. It's good that you had the good sense to leave your seats early. www.rollingstone.com/music/news/stage-collapse-at-indiana-state-fair-kills-four-injures-dozens-20110814?link=mostpopular4Isn't this the second or third stage collapse this year? One with Cheap Trick actually on stage? You know, when my wife goes to a public place, whether it's a restaurant, movie, concert, baseball game, museum, she ALWAYS looks for the "escape" routes. I keep kidding her, but now . . . It happened in Ottawa, Canada on July 17 at a Blues Festival, also due to straight line winds from an impending storm. Luckily no one was killed there, but it is clear these makeshift music stages are not designed to withstand severe winds contained in thunderstorms. The Ottawa incident was clearly a warning not heeded and now there has been a tragedy with lives lost as a result. Isn't it obvious that these rigged-up stages at outdoor music festivals or State Fairs should be immediately banned in areas that thunderstorms are common affairs? It's a no-brainer. There will be changes I suspect. I am convinced those in charge should have delayed the concert last night and orderly cleared the people on the track and Grandstand starting at 8:30 p.m. I'm not saying they could have foreseen the exact stage roof collapse as what happened but it was a really dangerous storm coming. But as you say lowbasso, the Cheap Trick incident as well as the one in Oklahoma were huge warnings about temporary stage riggings and wind. The Ferris Wheel and another tall ride(that hauls people up to the top then drops them at high speed) were directly to our West and in the same path of the storm but were unscathed. Either they were better secured or that wind gust happened right at the point of the Grandstand stage. It was such a beautiful evening until about 8:30 p.m. Janet Jackson and other rather big acts are to resume at the Grandstand Stage this week but I don't see how. There are major investigations going on and the rubble of the stage roof is still there.
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Post by John S. Damm on Aug 15, 2011 8:19:36 GMT -5
The State is now revealing that officials were going to order us out but ran out of time. The deadly gust of wind at over 70 m.p.h. hit ahead of the storm itself. www.indystar.com/article/20110815/NEWS15/108150322/Could-stage-collapse-been-prevented-?odyssey=mod|defcon|text|IndyStar.comI don't know what to think as the straight-line wind that collapsed the stage structure came quickly. The DJ's announcement though which is now being called preliminary had the effect of keeping people in their seats. My wife wanted to leave earlier than when we actually started to. What the State is not saying is that the DJ also said the storm could miss us. I took some hope from his statement as the concert officials had the access to the weather and I told my wife we were okay from rain as the Grandstand has a huge roof itself. The Grandstand is a big steel and aluminum structure. I was wondering about lightning as it was doing such to our North and West. I was wondering if we could be shocked if lightning hit this steel and aluminum structure. It would have to have grounded lightning rods I reasoned. As I've written, by about 8:46(the official timeline says the stage structure collapsed at 8:49 p.m.), I told my wife I agreed with her and we were getting out of there. The Grandstand seats are long aluminum benches with backrests but no break in the aisles. We were seats 9 and 10 and had to get past eight people to get to the aisle leading down to the main aisle. The seat rows are long so if you were seats 20 or 21 you'd be in the middle and have to get past a lot of people in a very narrow space. During the opening act, people kept coming and going which required each of us to stand and hug our seats so the person could get through. Donna and I never left our seats at all. So when we go to leave, this guy with two small kids and his wife won't stand to let Donna get by! Here it is black as can be, a storm clearly coming, and he acts very put out by us trying to leave. Donna was as polite as possible saying that we were sorry and that we were leaving and he wouldn't have to worry about us coming back. Finally he begrudgingly moved and I must say I was about one second from making him move. We got down the vertical aisle with very little traffic and the main horizontal aisle was more crowded and as we approached the exit rampart(the steep steps to underneath the Grandstand) is when the straight-line wind hit with a ferocity. We could actually see a wave of dirt coming at us before we felt the wind and that is what caused the mass screaming. It was mere seconds that the stage structure started swaying and prompted more and louder screaming and that is when we turned to our rights and watched that tragedy unfold right in front of us. I yelled in despair and briefly watched people on the track start the rescue but I could not bear to look and that point there was the crowd surge behind us and we were right at the steps and I'd be damned if my wife was going to get pushed down those steep things so I snapped out of that brief horror-stricken moment of stunned disbelief and manhandled her down the stairs. She had flip-flops on and I was scared she would slip and fall if not actually shoved down as the stairs seemed wet although the rain hadn't started in earnest yet. Our attempts to leave early put us in the distinct minority as to the Grandstands. I do think, thank God, that more people on the track had left because they had no roof over their heads to protect from the approaching storm.
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Post by OldFred on Aug 15, 2011 11:46:28 GMT -5
A friend of my friend Linda had an uncle who was one of those who died in the stage collapse. Please keep their family in your thoughts and prayers.
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JCV
Very Clean
Posts: 545
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Post by JCV on Aug 15, 2011 12:09:00 GMT -5
Oh my goodness, JSD! I knew you and Mrs. JSD were at that concert and was praying that you both were all right! I'm so glad to hear that you listened to Mrs. JSD for a change and made it out safely. The advice for looking for exits when you're out in public is excellent and should be heeded by all. What a tragedy. JCV
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Post by John S. Damm on Aug 15, 2011 12:26:19 GMT -5
A friend of my friend Linda had an uncle who was one of those who died in the stage collapse. Please keep their family in your thoughts and prayers. Truly a small world. One gentleman was Security and the other gentleman was a Union lightman up in the rig when it collapsed. Yeah for sure the prayers and good thoughts are flowing from here. Thanks JCV for your kind thoughts and words. I agree with you and sayne's wife about always having a plan no matter where you are at. My reluctance to leave at first was we had a good strong permanent roof over our heads and I was thinking mostly rain and lightning. I am haunted now by not leaving sooner as we could have missed seeing what we saw. My delay was just mere minutes from Donna's fist suggestion that we leave. I dropped that ball for sure.
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Post by Blackguard on Aug 15, 2011 14:00:22 GMT -5
Reading the JSD's account of the stage collapse and resulting chaos was frighting.
This is the second stage collapse due to a storm that I have heard of in the past few weeks.
The first was while Cheap Trick was performing in Canada.
In both cases I'm sure the stages were structurally sound and safe for the performers and audiences. It's just very hard to account for mother nature sometimes.
To those who were hurt in either situation we can only offer or best wishes and collective prayers.
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Post by John S. Damm on Aug 15, 2011 22:19:00 GMT -5
In both cases I'm sure the stages were structurally sound and safe for the performers and audiences. It's just very hard to account for mother nature sometimes. There seems to be a tug of war here(and elsewhere) as to these temporary stage structures. Both you and lowbasso make very cogent arguments for your respective points. At Wrigley Field, Sir Paul had a monster set-up in Center Field. Chicago is the Windy City and Paul's structure was much larger than Sugarland's Saturday night. Had Pauls stage structure toppled it would have been ugly too and there were a lot more people closer to that stage! All temporary stage structures are obviously more vulnerable to massive failure than permanent structures. Yet haven't there been tragic accidents in permanent indoor theaters or arenas where equipment has fallen? My wife and I are actually no strangers to dangerous weather at concerts as we saw Tom Petty And The Heartbreakers at Verizon Wireless Music Center in Noblesville, Indiana on July 21, 2005. The power went out twice and well before the show should have ended, a severe storm hit and lighting fixtures on stage toppled and Petty and band just split and never came back out and the house lights went on. That was a rather scary situation but it shows that the stage at Verizon, a permanent structure, was much safer in that sudden, violent storm than a temporary structure. The lighting fixtures that toppled were portable ones Petty brought in for special effects and were free standing on the stage, They were like eight feet tall or less. In a tale of two concerts, and bringing in our beloved Beatles in a way, there was a cool Beatles tribute show at Conner Prairie, a wonderful outdoor facility near Indy where the Indianapolis Symphony Orchestra was paired with a Beatles tribute band in a show called Classical Mystery Tour. There were 12,000 thousand or so of us at Sugarland, a major contemporary recording group, while this Beatles Tribute Band with the ISO drew an amazing 7,000 fans which was 2,000 short because of the bad forecast. The Beatles Tribute/ISO concert was cancelled very early and the crowd safely sent away. In a link I gave above, here is what is written about the Beatles Tribute show(the writer doesn't mention the Beatles tribute but it was): But those same warnings produced a very different reaction at Conner Prairie, about 15 miles northwest of the State Fair.
As about 7,000 fans gathered under the summer sky and waited for the Indianapolis Symphony Orchestra to take the stage, an emcee from a local radio station came out and addressed the crowd. Storms were approaching, he said, and the show was being interrupted. Fans were told they should immediately head back to their vehicles.
That warning came at roughly 8:15 p.m. -- 30 minutes before the blast of wind ripped across the fairgrounds.
In an email to The Indianapolis Star, Diane Breier, who attended the ISO concert, described the warning:
"At about 8:15 p.m. the announcer (at Conner Prairie) came back onstage and stated that with the information they had about the weather, they did not think it was safe for the crowd to continue. He asked everyone at that time to return to their cars. No ifs, ands or buts. He stated this repeatedly: 'Please return to your cars now.' "
At Conner Prairie, symphony officials make the call on cancellations after conferring with the weather service and monitoring weather radar, said Simon Crookall, president and CEO.
"We tend to take a pretty cautious approach," he said.
The decision Saturday came after officials learned the storms were packing lightning, with the possibility of hail.
Unlike the fairgrounds, Crookall said, there are few places for people to take shelter other than in their vehicles.
"One of our big concerns is getting people back to their cars," he said. "There is quite a distance to the parking area."
In Breier's email to The Star, she said, "I can't second-guess the decision-making about the weather that the officials made at the State Fair, but I do know that the officials at Conner Prairie's Symphony on the Prairie made the right decisions about evacuation.
"No one likes to disappoint the fans, and I was grumbling a lot about the cancellation, but in the end, I thank the officials for their wise decision to place safety over the crowd's desires to see the performance, and the need for the 'show to go on.' "
I talked to a local fireman who saw Classical Mystery Tour Friday night under perfect weather and he said it was great, great performances of Beatles' music!
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Post by John S. Damm on Aug 16, 2011 0:37:32 GMT -5
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Post by Blackguard on Aug 16, 2011 16:33:02 GMT -5
Putting some thought to this issue, I remembered that a very tall scaffold for lighting equipment fell on Curtis Mayfield after being blown down by a strong gust of wind. Mayfield was paralyzed from the neck down and later died from the resulting health issues from the accident.
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Post by ReturnToPepperland on Aug 16, 2011 19:57:17 GMT -5
John. Believe it or not I thought about you when I saw that on TV. I knew you live in Indiana and there was a chance you might be at the fair. Was it the opening weekend? I am glad you and your wife escaped unharmed.
People always ask why God allows bad things to happen to good people. The answer is simple. God gives us free will and we are subject to the natural laws of the world in which we live. Our human bodies are subject to natural law-gravity, the danger of water, etc. God did not put us on the earth to be immortal. That is what Heaven is for. If God were to intervene every time someone is in danger of dying, he would be performing miracles constantly and would create Heaven on earth where we would never die. He would reveal himself and there would be no faith needed. Faith is the way God determines the nature of our true heart. Faith is the way we show God we believe in his message about the world and if we have a soul that is salvageable. He will one day come out and show himself as God when the world is at its end. But it would be against everything he teaches us to interfere in natural law by introducing super natural powers before that time.
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Post by winstonoboogie on Aug 16, 2011 21:22:48 GMT -5
A friend of my friend Linda had an uncle who was one of those who died in the stage collapse. Please keep their family in your thoughts and prayers. I am haunted now by not leaving sooner as we could have missed seeing what we saw. My delay was just mere minutes from Donna's fist suggestion that we leave. I dropped that ball for sure. John ( Huck?), I say this as a (cyber-) friend: please don't let it get to you. The main thing is that you and your wife are safe and whole. Just thank God for that and pray for the victims. If you continue to dwell over it, it will eat a hole in your stomach. If you need to, consider counseling. Just my $0.02.
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Post by John S. Damm on Aug 16, 2011 22:16:35 GMT -5
Thanks RTP for the thoughts and you too Winston. My wife is struggling with what she saw so I've got to keep an eye on her and support her.
I am trying not to get angry but the more I hear my Governor and the Fair Officials speak, the harder it is getting. People who know finances made the calls that night, not meteorologists.
I am going to move this Thread tomorrow to an Off-Topic section. I appreciate Joey getting the word out that we were okay because I had mentioned somewhere that we were going to this show and this Section of the Board is the most frequented and Steve let's us have tourneys here for that very reason and then I move them after they play-out.
I will still post in this Thread once moved as it helps me vent but it is very somber and despite my tenuous efforts to inject some Beatles into it, like the State Fair's Pepsi Coliseum where The Beatles rocked Indiana twice in September 1964 and where a Beatles Tribute band nearly sold as many tickets as contemporary recording stars Sugar land, it was just Joey being very thoughtful and your words of kindness here mean more to me than you'll ever know.
JSD
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Post by Steve Marinucci on Aug 16, 2011 23:58:12 GMT -5
As far as I'm concerned, the thread can stay here if it'll help the discussion and if it'll be a help to John in talking it out and getting over what happened.
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