Match 4, Solo LP Tourney, Rnd 4, POB 1 vs. BOTR 1

[joeyself]

PLASTIC ONO BAND, Side 1 vs. BAND ON THE RUN, Side 1

PLASTIC ONO BAND, Side 1

1. "Mother" – 5:34
2. "Hold On" – 1:52
3. "I Found Out" – 3:37
4. "Working Class Hero" – 3:48
5. "Isolation" – 2:51


BAND ON THE RUN, Side 1

1. "Band on the Run" 5:10
2. "Jet" 4:06
3. "Bluebird" 3:22
4. "Mrs Vandebilt" 4:38
5. "Let Me Roll It" 4:47

This is the final match in round 4. The voting is going a bit quicker because those that want to play each side before voting and commenting have likely done so in earlier rounds. The next round will start no earlier than 6:00 AM CST, February 28, 2011, as I'm going to leave all four matches open through the weekend.

JcS

[Joe Karlosi]

Two great sides, but John sequaks by for me with Side one of POB.

[John S. Damm]

Interesting. This match pits the Side 1's of Rolling Stone magazine's #418 album of all time(BOTR) versus its #22 album of all time(JL/POB).

[JCV]

BAND ON THE RUN, Side 1

Easy to choose this one for me.

JCV

[scousette]

BAND ON THE RUN, Side 1

[joeyself]

This is the easiest match of this round; there's nothing on Side 1 of POB that I like, and while BOTR 1 isn't perfect, it starts and ends nicely, and the middle bit is decent.

JcS

[acebackwords]

POB was a ground-breaking classic. A work of aht. One of those rare records. Sure, its not very commercial or tuneful and its not something you'd put on at a party (boy, talk about a buzz-killer). But its got heart and soul and pain and grit. And it completely redefined the Beatles legacy. Plus, I never really liked the song Band on the Run. It doesn't really go anywhere or move me emotionally. Though I recently heard a killer cover version by a guy on a classical guitar.

[diego]

This one is interesting. John's best versus Paul's second best. If it were the whole albums, it would be easy as BOTR stumbles a bit on side 2 and POB is perfect from start to finish.

However, examining just side 1, BOTR is very strong. The only weak song is Bluebird and it's still good.

I'll still vote for POB, but BOTR is a great record. It is strange that there's little love for POB around here.

[John S. Damm]

PLASTIC ONO BAND, Side 1

POB is in a league of its own. It is among the most elite albums ever released in the Rock Era. POB-1 is the gateway, where the listener is forced to accept a new world order.

No album with just guitar, piano, drum and bass will ever go out of style. Never.

BOTR is okay but it is dated as can be. It screams late 1973 and that is not a good thing. SPLHCB is called dated but that is part of its mystery and appeal: it remains powerful but has stopped the passage of time in a mystical, good way. One is taken to the heady first half of 1967 when the sky was the limit for young people. We know that dream crashes and burns by 1968 but SPLHCB never lets us get to 1968, it is forever mid-1967.

BOTR is just 1973 and that year sucked in the lame kind of way. All those ickey synths in the title song and "Jet." Yuck! Bet Paul wishes he could get those synths out of the recordings without being caught! And "Bluebird" could be the most boring song ever recorded. Who needs sleeping aids when you can play "Bluebird."

Give me either Side of Ram or Wild Life any day over BOTR-1

[joeyself]

Feb 24, 2011 14:09:24 GMT -5 diego said:

I'll still vote for POB, but BOTR is a great record. It is strange that there's little love for POB around here.

I don't find it that odd--as one that doesn't have much love for it, I wouldn't. But we are not a group influenced by the music critics, i.e. ROLLING STONE magazine and the like. We hear something and make up our own mind.

That's not to say that someone that likes POB does so because of the favorable press it got/gets--I think the independent minded can come to the same conclusion as conventional wisdom, just as such a person can come to the opposite conclusion.

JcS

[Joseph McCabe]

I seen through junkies I been through it all
I seen religion from Jesus to Paul
Don't let them fool you with dope and cocaine
No one can harm you, feel your own pain

Fly away through the midnight air
As we head across the sea,
And at last we will be free.
You're a Bluebird, You're a Bluebird,
You're a Bluebird, You're a Bluebird,
Yeah, Yeah, Yeah.

They hurt you at home and they hit you at school,
They hate you if you're clever and they despise a fool,
Till you're so fucking crazy you can't follow their rules.

Well, the rain exploded with a mighty crash
As we fell into the sun
And the first one said to the second one there
I hope you're having fun
Band on the run, Band on the run
And the jailer man and Sailor Sam
Were searching every one

And I wish I could post, right here, a few music samples. Then I could show the power of the music on one of rock's great albums, compared to the limp doodling on the other (competent though that musical doodling may be).

Plastic Ono Band for me.

McCabe

[stavros]

This side of POB is a tough one to beat. It's minimalist production suits it's subject matter perfectly. It is a very personal statement from John and "Hold On" is perfectly placed. I said this in the early rounds that it's John saying "Hey it will be OK in the end. But it's gonna be a painful journey". To John's credit the album is also very accessible.

In complete contrast "Band on the Run" is Paul doing what he does best. Great hooks and melodies, excellent entertainment and who cares about the cheesey 70s synths? The lyrics as usual are at best "cryptic" but mainly nonsense.

Perhaps the problem is that POB represents an artistic statement whilst BOTR is, first and foremost, a piece of glossy pop to entertain us all. POB is an album you listen to. BOTR is an album you sing along to. Both have their merits and are high points of the solo careers of John and Paul. POB puts you in a pensive mood and you have to be in the right frame of mind to hear it. BOTR has some great tunes but nothing of substance.

After long deliberation I can hear John saying "Hold On!". He's staring over the rim of his glasses with a glint in his eye claiming "it's gonna be alright...but come with me first". And then Paul with the Jailer man and Sailor Sam get off a Jumbo Jet, spot a bluebird and shout "Hey Ho, I feel like Letting Go".

Time for a Guiness over the weekend on this one.....

[mikev]

Here you have a battle between art and entertainment. BOTR cannot stand up to POB in pure art. It is Lennon stripped down raw at his very very best.

BOTR is powerful in an entertaining way. It captures the mid- 70s "arena rock" sound and adds a bit of a hard rock edge (never said metal) to Wings repetoire to date. Just a bit of hard rock- not the riffs of Helter Skelter or I Want You.

The synths do plasticize the music a bit, but it's not Gary Numan.

I always liked Bluebird- completely understand lyrically it cannot stand up to Lennon's bare all vibes.

No points here- just rock and roll. BOTR by a time of day and mood of the moment.

[RockoRoll]

BAND ON THE RUN, Side 1

[coachbk]

I cast my vote for BOTR side 1. I still get excited when I put this record on. I love the multi-part masterpiece title song and love how it builds to that great guitar just before the "well the rain exploded in a mighty crash..." part of the song. It stands up with the Beatles best stuff. Some good lyrical bits too. "Jet" is just plain old classic rock. The kind of song even non Beatles fans love. "Bluebird" makes for a nice break and has a very tasteful use of horns. "Mrs. Vanderbilt" is the key song to this confident carefree album, "What's the use of worrying? No use" is a great line that captures the spirit of the album. I don't love "Let Me Roll It" the way some do, but it is still above average.
POB just can't come close to BOTR musically. "Working Class Hero" is a powerful song. "Hold On" I've been sold on as a positive song. "Isolation" starts like it is going to be great, but it is just good. "Mother" goes on way too long and "I Found Out" is the weakest song on either side.
As art, it is close, probably I'd vote for POB. As music it is a very easy win for BOTR. So my overall vote goes to BOTR.

[diego]

Feb 24, 2011 14:46:01 GMT -5 joeyself said:

Feb 24, 2011 14:09:24 GMT -5 diego said:

I'll still vote for POB, but BOTR is a great record. It is strange that there's little love for POB around here.

I don't find it that odd--as one that doesn't have much love for it, I wouldn't. But we are not a group influenced by the music critics, i.e. ROLLING STONE magazine and the like. We hear something and make up our own mind.

That's not to say that someone that likes POB does so because of the favorable press it got/gets--I think the independent minded can come to the same conclusion as conventional wisdom, just as such a person can come to the opposite conclusion.

JcS

I don't really know about being influenced or anything, but I don't think the album is judged fairly. There have been comments that the album is not tuneful, but I think it has great melodies, some are as good as anything John and Paul ever did. Love has a beautiful melody, as does God, Isolation or Look At Me.

I get the feeling there's a prejudice against POB, because it has a reputation of Primal scream therapy or whatever, that it's all screams, yells and complaints and mother issues, but POB is so much more.

And the playing is superb.

[vectisfabber]

BOTR1

Songs I like vs songs I don't like. Easy.

[John S. Damm]

Feb 24, 2011 17:35:57 GMT -5 diego said:

Feb 24, 2011 14:46:01 GMT -5 joeyself said:

I don't find it that odd--as one that doesn't have much love for it, I wouldn't. But we are not a group influenced by the music critics, i.e. ROLLING STONE magazine and the like. We hear something and make up our own mind.

That's not to say that someone that likes POB does so because of the favorable press it got/gets--I think the independent minded can come to the same conclusion as conventional wisdom, just as such a person can come to the opposite conclusion.

JcS

I don't really know about being influenced or anything, but I don't think the album is judged fairly. There have been comments that the album is not tuneful, but I think it has great melodies, some are as good as anything John and Paul ever did. Love has a beautiful melody, as does God, Isolation or Look At Me.

I get the feeling there's a prejudice against POB, because it has a reputation of Primal scream therapy or whatever, that it's all screams, yells and complaints and mother issues, but POB is so much more.

And the playing is superb.

I agree, diego. POB is amazing. At least its integrity is intact. Paul going on SNL late last year and absolutely embarrassing his so-called masterpiece is a shame.

[brothermichael]

Feb 24, 2011 15:06:10 GMT -5 Joseph McCabe said:

They hurt you at home and they hit you at school,
They hate you if you're clever and they despise a fool,
Till you're so fucking crazy you can't follow their rules.

Well, the rain exploded with a mighty crash
As we fell into the sun
And the first one said to the second one there
I hope you're having fun
Band on the run, Band on the run
And the jailer man and Sailor Sam
Were searching every one

McCabe

Don't know if this is the best comparison you could have made to make your case. The first two lines of "BOR" are more memorable than 99 percent of "POB." Anyway, I think it's an empty exercise as it stands. Some lyrics arbitrarily pulled and placed side by side? That's supposed to prove...?

Band on the Run.

[Joseph McCabe]

Feb 24, 2011 21:44:30 GMT -5 brothermichael said:

Don't know if this is the best comparison you could have made to make your case. The first two lines of "BOR" are more memorable than 99 percent of "POB." Anyway, I think it's an empty exercise as it stands. Some lyrics arbitrarily pulled and placed side by side? That's supposed to prove...?

So you like Paul's lyrics on this album: undemanding, meaningless, etc etc though they be.

OTOH, one of the reasons POB has bite is its lyrics: direct, and to the point.

But good for you if you like BOTR. Many do. But do be aware that others have different standards to yourself ...

McCabe

Edited in the interests of being nice...

[coachbk]

But isn't there more to it than lyrics? BOTR is so musically varied. creative and unique. Does that not count for anything?

[nicole21290]

Some people may also not be as keen to listen to John's admittedly strong, personal, direct and punchy lyrics exactly because that's what they are - it may be less 'demanding' but people actually can gain more pleasure and satisfaction from listening to Paul's supposed 'limp doodlings' in Band Of The Run than God, for example, though some cannot. I appreciate John's lyric-writing and admire it but I often find it very hard to identify with. Sometimes, the vague and even nonsensical lyrics Paul writes combined with his excellent facility for melody (generally more wideranging and variable than John's own melodies, I find) put them a step above Lennon's songs for me. Of course, I know it's all personal preference but just because you might find Paul's lyrics pathetic, limp and meaningless doesn't mean everyone else does. And just because they don't doesn't mean they are thick or shallow - it just means they have (equally valid) different tastes.

Also, I don't find the lyrics to Band On The Run meaningless - it's a story song and uses some great imagery. Granted, Paul often is more vague and less direct in the meaning of his songs and sometimes doesn't intend for there to be any, it seems, but a listener can still take meaning from it - he often leaves room for a listener's own interpretation and experience. John's songs on POB are certainly very direct and personal and though I understand how important they may be to some, how important they were to John, how big an artistic and personal statement it was, it still quite often leaves me cold - I cannot relate to a lot of his emotions and feelings much of the time and I just don't find it an enjoyable, pleasurable, emotional nor satisfying listen a lot of the time. Sorry.

Regarding this actual round, now.

POB - I love Mother (though I think it's a tad too long), like Working Class Hero, Hold On and Isolation but am not particularly keen on I Found Out.

BoTR - I find it, to be honest, an almost flawless side for my own tastes. I love Bluebird unlike many (harmonies are gorgeous) and think the rest are all great, especially live (overplayed as some of them are! ).

Also, I don't agree that BoTR's legacy is somehow wrecked or has had its integrity destroyed by Paul playing a couple of the songs not particularly well on an episode of SNL - part of it was his dodgy voice and a lot of it was the dodgy soundmix or whatever it is. Regardless, that one performance will not change the majority's opinion - BoTR is one of Paul's best albums just as POB is one of John's - they're just very different.

[Joseph McCabe]

Feb 24, 2011 23:33:16 GMT -5 coachbk said:

But isn't there more to it than lyrics? BOTR is so musically varied. creative and unique. Does that not count for anything?

Of course the music counts too. But BOTR so musically varied? Well, Paul McCartney is good at that ... but so what? Many of Macca's songs are lyrically weak, so that no matter how good the music is you wonder what the song is for.

The music and lyrics of POB is a successful marriage. Each reinforces the feeling and statements of the other.

McCabe

[brothermichael]

Feb 24, 2011 22:59:02 GMT -5 Joseph McCabe said:

Feb 24, 2011 21:44:30 GMT -5 brothermichael said:

McCabe

Edited in the interests of being nice...

Please.

[diego]

Feb 24, 2011 21:44:30 GMT -5 brothermichael said:

The first two lines of "BOR" are more memorable than 99 percent of "POB."

Speak for yourself,
'God is a concept by which we measure our pain'
'I don't expect you to understand after you've caused so much pain, but then again you're not to blame, you're just a human, a victim of the insane'
'I don't believe in Beatles'
'They hate you if you're clever and they dispise a fool'
'We're afraid to be alone, everybody got to have a home'

Just to put a few examples, are much more memorable than "Stuck inside these four walls", not that there's anything wrong with that line, but come on... POB is filled with memorable lines, whether you agree with them or not is another matter.

And that's reality

[Joseph McCabe]

Feb 25, 2011 0:57:47 GMT -5 brothermichael said:

Feb 24, 2011 22:59:02 GMT -5 Joseph McCabe said:

Feb 24, 2011 21:44:30 GMT -5 brothermichael said:

McCabe

Edited in the interests of being nice...

Please.

You wouldn't make that remark if you had seen what I'd originally written!

McCabe

[Deleted]

BAND ON THE RUN, Side 1

easy choice for me....this is a more pleasurable listen....

[John S. Damm]

As I step in between the mixing posters.

I see now why some don't play these tourneys because let's face it, they are very competitive no matter how we try to intellectualize it. These are geared for fans to vocalize and argue their loyalties.

Humans are competitive. We all want our team to win.

"IT'S A TUG OF WAR, (a tug of war, a tug of war)
WHAT WITH ONE THING AND ANOTHER,
IT'S A TUG OF WAR.
WE EXPECTED MORE
BUT WITH ONE THING AND ANOTHER,
WE WERE TRYIN' TO OUTSCORE EACH OTHER
IN A TUG OF WAR."

[brothermichael]

Feb 25, 2011 12:11:58 GMT -5 diego said:

Feb 24, 2011 21:44:30 GMT -5 brothermichael said:

The first two lines of "BOR" are more memorable than 99 percent of "POB."

'I don't expect you to understand after you've caused so much pain, but then again you're not to blame, you're just a human, a victim of the insane'

Just to put a few examples, are much more memorable than "Stuck inside these four walls", not that there's anything wrong with that line, but come on... POB is filled with memorable lines, whether you agree with them or not is another matter.

And that's reality

Right. Your "reality."

I was actually referring to the first two lines Mr. McCabe posted from BOR -- "And the rain exploded..." Coupled with the music and movement from the first section, incredible stuff.

As for the Lennon lines -- the one I quoted from your post above...I was just thinking of that section last night. To me, the "victim of the insane" is cringe worthy. I like the chorus of repeated isolation, but verse bits like that aren't so great to me.

[brothermichael]

Feb 25, 2011 14:29:27 GMT -5 Joseph McCabe said:

Feb 25, 2011 0:57:47 GMT -5 brothermichael said:

Please.

You wouldn't make that remark if you had seen what I'd originally written!

McCabe

You obviously want to post it, so post it. Enough with the condescension and coy posts.