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Post by joeyself on Oct 22, 2010 9:36:22 GMT -5
PLASTIC ONO BAND, Side 1 vs. EXTRA TEXTURE, Side 1
PLASTIC ONO BAND, Side 1
1. "Mother" – 5:34
2. "Hold On" – 1:52
3. "I Found Out" – 3:37
4. "Working Class Hero" – 3:48
5. "Isolation" – 2:51
EXTRA TEXTURE (Read All About It), Side 1
1. "You" – 3:41
2. "The Answer's At The End" – 5:32
3. "This Guitar (Can't Keep From Crying)" – 4:11
4. "Ooh Baby (You Know That I Love You)" – 3:59
5. "World of Stone" – 4:40
I've looked at the next few pairings, and don't know that any of the upcoming matches will be that close; on the other hand, we've had some good discussions in runaways, so I'll stay on roughly the same pace I've been posting these.
JcS
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Post by coachbk on Oct 22, 2010 11:44:00 GMT -5
At first glance I thought I've got to vote for POB. But then I thought again. I don't own EXTRA TEXTURE. "You" was a fantastic single. I remember how thrilled I was when it first came out and I thought it was my favorite top 40 hit of that time. I listened to the other ET songs on YouTube. I quite like "This Guitar". It may go on a bit long, which is a problem with the rest of the songs on this side. But there was nothing I didn't like and there are snatches of nice guitar and heartfelt lyrics throughout this LP side.
As to POB, I never cared for "Mother" that much. "I Found Out" I like even less. "Hold On" never did much for me. "Isolation" has some good lyrics and music. Only "Working Class Hero" stands out to me as a "classic" from this side.
Lennon is just too self pitying and whiny on this album side and it is not something I care to listen to.
I'd much rather listen to George. "You" turns the tide for me and so I'm going with EXTRA TEXTURE.
POB may be "high art" or something, but musically it is among the most overrated albums ever in my opinion. (side 2 is better).
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JCV
Very Clean
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Post by JCV on Oct 22, 2010 11:50:16 GMT -5
EXTRA TEXTURE (Read All About It), Side 1Definitely George.  JCV 
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Post by John S. Damm on Oct 22, 2010 14:49:05 GMT -5
I am a little surprised at the votes thus far, a tie at 2-2. It's early.
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Joseph McCabe
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A rebel to his last breath ...
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Post by Joseph McCabe on Oct 22, 2010 14:51:34 GMT -5
As I write, there are four votes here, yet only coachbk has given reasons; and JCV at least made a comment.
As I see it, it's the discussion that is the point of these tournaments, not the voting. No one cares who wins any match up at all! The tournament is a trigger for people to give their views, and respond to others.
Vote, by all means. But tell us why ...
McCabe
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Joseph McCabe
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A rebel to his last breath ...
Posts: 912
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Post by Joseph McCabe on Oct 22, 2010 14:57:38 GMT -5
Each Beatle produced on their own at least one colossal bore of an album -- hey, some (all of them?) managed a whole lot more than one!
But for me, this is George's bore. I love This Guitar, and (yes, I know, I know) I love His Name Is Legs. However, the latter is on side 2 --- which leaves, for me, only one really good effort on side 1.
I'm one of those that think the solo Beatles produced only a few outstanding albums. And JL/POB is one of them. From the opening tolling bells, to the final plaintive cries of My Mummy's Dead, this album is a masterwork.
Its side 1 wins this little clash easily.
McCabe
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Post by acebackwords on Oct 22, 2010 16:03:37 GMT -5
I consider POB one of the classic Beatles solo albums. To come out with something like that, something that was so uncommercial, right when he was launching his solo career, took quite a bit of artistic guts. Maybe its not the most tuneful album. But, like with the best of Lennon's stuff, its ABOUT something. There's some interesting concepts at play. Its not just a collection of tunes like most albums. And coming right off the heels of his Bed-in for Peace period where Lennon was sort of playing at being a guru with cosmic wisdom to bestow on humanity (he really believed that, at least on some levels), it was startling how he did a 180 degree turn with the POB album.
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Post by ursamajor on Oct 22, 2010 16:19:20 GMT -5
JL/POB S-1 hands down. The music is not high art , it is actually quite simple compared to John's psychedelic peak. The arrangements are stripped to the bare minimum as John bares all in song and emotion. The genius behind these songs is that apart from a few tasty Ringo fills on some of the songs , Ringo and Klaus practically play simple notes or just keep the beat, yet when all the elements are pulled together and we have John's proto-agit-rock style guitar making it's appearance we get a cohesive sound and it's all their to support John's brilliant singing, his words and emotions.
Extra Texture I prefer Side -2 to Side -1. You is an ok single not earth shattering but it's an indictment of ET that You is the best song. The rest of the songs just fill up space, Ohh Baby sounds pretty close to Pure Smokey from 33.3 repeater. The Answer's at the End and World of Stone are quite boring and not sure what George thought was so good about them and this leaves This Guitar as the only other worthwhile song although it's not even close to the son of WMGGW, just a very pale tribute of sorts.
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Oct 22, 2010 16:54:48 GMT -5
POB is a classic album, one of the best ever made by anyone. And especially one of The Solo Beatles. There are very few sides which would be able to stand up to this masterpiece.
EXTRA TEXTURE, on the other hand, is a snoozer of an album. A colossal bore. But I do enjoy THIS GUITAR, YOU, and ANSWER'S AT THE END.
POB doesn't even have to lift a pinky.
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Post by ReturnToPepperland on Oct 22, 2010 17:45:51 GMT -5
I'm going with John on this one. Here are some details about why. Note that the better side of Extra Texture is clearly side 2.
1. "Mother" – A bit overrated but not a bad song. I appreciate the emotion put into the singing of this song. Overall pretty good.
2. "Hold On" This is a throw away--not very interesting.
3. "I Found Out" – I never liked this song, but recently I was making a home compilation of John's songs. I listened to it in the process of picking the songs and it grew on me. Too long but the lyrics, while a bit whiny, are good.
4. "Working Class Hero" – Sorry this is a snoozer for me. Very monotone delivery, it is over-long and overrated. It doesn't hold my interest. The lyrics are just over the top. It makes you think of saying "get over yourself". Declaring himself Working Class Hero reminds me of Michael Jackson declaring himself King of Pop.
5. "Isolation" – I like this one. It has a nice emotional build up and is memorable. I can ignore the "poor us" lyrics because the song itself is good.
EXTRA TEXTURE (Read All About It), Side 1
1. "You" – Its ok, but as a single it was a disappointment. Why is George's voice so high? Change in pitch on the master tape?
2. "The Answer's At The End" – I like this one. Fine lyrics and nice dramatic structure.
3. "This Guitar (Can't Keep From Crying)" – A good try but in the end its a failure. By conjuring up the comparison to While My Guitar Gently Weeps, it makes it doomed to failure.
4. "Ooh Baby (You Know That I Love You)" – A failed experiment. George is no Smokey Robinson.
5. "World of Stone" – Deadly dull. One of George's most uninteresting compositions.
As I said, side two of ET is a big improvement.
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Post by vectisfabber on Oct 22, 2010 18:24:34 GMT -5
I don't like either album very much, but JLPOB is important, Extra Texture isn't.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2010 18:53:22 GMT -5
EXTRA TEXTURE, Side 1
As raw and emotional as the PLASTIC ONO BAND album is i think this side of Extra Texture has the better songs when compared to side 1 of POB......
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Post by coachbk on Oct 22, 2010 19:50:36 GMT -5
JLPOB is important, Extra Texture isn't. I almost voted for POB based on the above logic. |
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Post by joeyself on Oct 22, 2010 20:04:25 GMT -5
I don't like either album very much, but JLPOB is important... Not to me. That's not to say I'm going to vote for the unimportant ET 1, but I'm just sayin'... JcS |
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Post by John S. Damm on Oct 22, 2010 22:59:14 GMT -5
PLASTIC ONO BAND, Side 1
There would never be a day, never an evening, never a twilight or dawn that I would vote for ET-1 over JL/POB-1. POB-1 might be the most important Side off any solo Beatles album with POB-2 a close second or tied.
For ET, George should have phoned home. You were lost brother.
George's voice isn't big enough for "You," a decent song that needs to be belted out by a powerful female singer. I'd say "This Guitar (Can't Keep From Crying)" is good but I like the so-called Platinum Weird version of a few years ago.
The rest of ET-1 is just too ponderous for me.
John Lennon hit a home run on JL/POB-1 and 2. It will never go out of style. Never.
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Oct 23, 2010 7:55:59 GMT -5
2. "Hold On" This is a throw away--not very interesting. I realize this is your opinion, but for me, I love it. Right now especially when I'm going through such personal difficulty, I have to tell myself to "hold on, Joe". It's a beautiful little song. I'd like to see Paul achieve something like this. Paul could never write something so strong and honest, also showing his childhood pain. Why do you have to ignore the lyrics? Would you prefer "Bip Bop"? John and Yoko WERE bulldozed constantly. |
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Post by joeyself on Oct 23, 2010 8:45:08 GMT -5
I don't like either of these sides. I find POB 1 to be insufferable and ET 1 to be boring. So, I had to find a way to answer the question: if I was going to have to put on one or the other to play, which would it be?
I wrestled with it a bit, and then realized that ET 1 was about 4 minutes longer than POB 1, so I went with the shorter side, just to get it over with.
JcS
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nine
Very Clean
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Post by nine on Oct 23, 2010 9:46:02 GMT -5
2. "Hold On" This is a throw away--not very interesting. I realize this is your opinion, but for me, I love it. Right now especially when I'm going through such personal difficulty, I have to tell myself to "hold on, Joe". It's a beautiful little song. I'd like to see Paul achieve something like this. Paul could never write something so strong and honest, also showing his childhood pain. Why do you have to ignore the lyrics? Would you prefer "Bip Bop"? John and Yoko WERE bulldozed constantly. Re: Isolation. If you take away the knowledge that you have of the songwriter and his wife and just listen to the song it's nothing short of brilliant. I love it. Even John's double tracked voice is great. Sort of going way off the beaten path, I think John's use of double tracking was another part of his creativity. He does double track excellently. |
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Post by vectisfabber on Oct 23, 2010 10:13:37 GMT -5
Hold On is one of the tracks I positively enjoy on JLPOB (the other being Love).
And yes, J & Y were bulldozed, but they certainly invited it.
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Oct 23, 2010 10:19:43 GMT -5
And yes, J & Y were bulldozed, but they certainly invited it. Not all of it. Most of it was simply because this man dared to go with a Japanese woman and he no longer focused on the public's precious Beatles. And even if J&Y had invited ALL Of the criticisms, it doesn't matter; because the sentiments in the song are from Lennon's persecuted perspective, not others'. Sorry, Joey, but this looks like yet another off-topic discussion brewing. |
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Post by mikev on Oct 23, 2010 10:34:55 GMT -5
PointPLASTIC ONO BAND, Side 1
1. Mother ****
2. Hold On****
3. I Found Out***
4. Working Class Hero*****
5. Isolation****
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EXTRA TEXTURE (Read All About It), Side 1
1. You***** I've always like this although simple
2. The Answer's At The End**
3. This Guitar (Can't Keep From Crying*****This one aged very well to me
4. Ooh Baby (You Know That I Love You)***
5. World of Stone ***
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Post by joeyself on Oct 23, 2010 10:39:16 GMT -5
And yes, J & Y were bulldozed, but they certainly invited it. Not all of it. Most of it was simply because this man dared to go with a Japanese woman and he no longer focused on the public's precious Beatles. And even if J&Y had invited ALL Of the criticisms, it doesn't matter; because the sentiments in the song are from Lennon's persecuted perspective, not others'. Sorry, Joey, but this looks like yet another off-topic discussion brewing. A professor in law school told me that if two people always agree, they don't discuss, they just chant. I don't mind a thread going where it goes; that's the nature of conversation. What I don't come here for--and avoid in other threads--is the constant bickering. In reflecting on it, I think it's an effort to get in the last word that is maddening to me. Once a point is made, it's made... JcS |
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Post by John S. Damm on Oct 23, 2010 12:36:41 GMT -5
Sorry, Joey, but this looks like yet another off-topic discussion brewing. You guys are fine, you all are talking about John and Yoko's sense of it being "us against the world" as best explored in "Isolation." JL/POB is very personal and it should be discussed in context of the lyrics and times in which it was written. |
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Post by joeyself on Oct 23, 2010 12:57:58 GMT -5
Sorry, Joey, but this looks like yet another off-topic discussion brewing. You guys are fine, you all are talking about John and Yoko's sense of it being "us against the world" as best explored in "Isolation." JL/POB is very personal and it should be discussed in context of the lyrics and times in which it was written. Yes, certainly so. I run these to encourage such discussions. Talking about the best way to enjoy/assess a work, yeah, that's in the realm of reasonable. But sniping back and forth? Not so much. JcS |
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Post by vectisfabber on Oct 23, 2010 14:46:17 GMT -5
The whole point of JLPOB is that you can't seperate it from its context, because it's all about the context.
I don't dispute that there was racism towards Yoko and towards John because he had taken up with her, but much of this came from the older generation - my generation was starting to lean towards more racial tolerance. Where he came in for some stick was in being seen to move from pleasing music to Toko's brand of avant garde art. Many people, including me, had little pateince for it then and little patience for it now, thought John was a fool for embracing it so wholeheartedly, and felt that it was not unreasonable to say so. If you behave like a fool, it's a bit unreasonable to get upset when people say "You're behaving like a fool."
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Post by stavros on Oct 23, 2010 15:29:15 GMT -5
I have dedicated myself to listening to whole album sides for this discussion (and as McCabe says it should be a discussion, vote and tell us why). So I always give it a little time before I cast my vote (and maybe a Guinness!).
With a pre-conceived notion that PLOB was the easy winner I listened to Extra Texture and it's first three tracks were holding up well. And then it fades into boredom with the last two tracks. But it is not the dull mid-seventies album side I had decided it would be.
As for PLOB this to me is John inventing his own sort of "punk" style and I like the sparse arrangement and production. It brings clarity and simplicity to the theme of the album.
Unlike others I actually think that "Hold On" is actually essential to the album because John us saying "hey it will all be OK in the end". A note of positivity before he explores those dark thoughts and themes. So Lennon beats Hari but not as easily as I thought.
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Oct 23, 2010 16:06:00 GMT -5
I don't dispute that there was racism towards Yoko and towards John because he had taken up with her, but much of this came from the older generation - my generation was starting to lean towards more racial tolerance. Where he came in for some stick was in being seen to move from pleasing music to Toko's brand of avant garde art. Many people, including me, had little pateince for it then and little patience for it now, thought John was a fool for embracing it so wholeheartedly, and felt that it was not unreasonable to say so. If you behave like a fool, it's a bit unreasonable to get upset when people say "You're behaving like a fool." As I said, the song is from John's perspective. And he had every right to feel persecuted, just the same as those who thought he was behaving like a fool had their right. Maybe if they wrote the song, they could share their side in their own lyrics. But this was John's song, and his feelings. And "fool" is in the eye of the beholder. |
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Post by ReturnToPepperland on Oct 23, 2010 17:11:48 GMT -5
2. "Hold On" This is a throw away--not very interesting. I realize this is your opinion, but for me, I love it. Right now especially when I'm going through such personal difficulty, I have to tell myself to "hold on, Joe". It's a beautiful little song. I'd like to see Paul achieve something like this. Paul could never write something so strong and honest, also showing his childhood pain. Why do you have to ignore the lyrics? Would you prefer "Bip Bop"? John and Yoko WERE bulldozed constantly. Having given it another listen, I have to admit the lyrics and guitar on Hold On are top flight. Stavros pointed out that it is the only song that is positive before the onslaught of negative themes. The lyrics "when you're by yourself and there's no one else you just have yourself and you tell yourself to hold on" are brilliant. I was doing something with this song I get mad at other people for doing and that is comparing it to the best Beatles songs. But that is not fair. It stands on its own as a fine song. I've changed my mind--its more than a throwaway. I think I was getting it confused with Look At Me which I don't like as much. It seems like a rework of Julia. I stand behind my other critiques. That is four out of the five songs that I like on side one. I did chose it over ET. It would be a harder choice with side 2 because I like ET side 2 better than side 1 and I like JL/POB side 1 better than side 2. |
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Post by vectisfabber on Oct 23, 2010 17:36:32 GMT -5
I agree that John felt persecuted and the album validly reflects that feeling. And the reason he felt put upon is because he was[/i] put upon. My point was that his actions invited the public/press reaction he got. John was no mug and must have realised this, and possibly even went some way towards engineering it in order to provoke press attention (I'm thinking the "if they want me to play the clown..." quote). Whether this makes him foolish or principled or brave or stubborn or a combination - well, that's a matter for conjecture.
But given that he was keen to generate column inches for what he wanted, it was a little disingenuous of him to complain when those sameendeavours got press reaction he didn't want.
And "fool" is indeed in the eye of the beholder. I'm perhaps more inclined to say "Emperor's new clothes" than outright fool. And that's my personal beholding, I accept, but I wasn't - and am not - alone. Even among some of those who greatly admire John for much of his post Beatles posturing, there's a fair amount of scorn for some of the artistic endeavours Yoko inspired him towards.
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Post by joeyself on Oct 23, 2010 20:43:42 GMT -5
I have dedicated myself to listening to whole album sides for this discussion (and as McCabe says it should be a discussion, vote and tell us why). So I always give it a little time before I cast my vote (and maybe a Guinness!). With a pre-conceived notion that PLOB was the easy winner I listened to Extra Texture and it's first three tracks were holding up well. And then it fades into boredom with the last two tracks. But it is not the dull mid-seventies album side I had decided it would be. As for PLOB this to me is John inventing his own sort of "punk" style and I like the sparse arrangement and production. It brings clarity and simplicity to the theme of the album. Unlike others I actually think that "Hold On" is actually essential to the album because John us saying "hey it will all be OK in the end". A note of positivity before he explores those dark thoughts and themes. So Lennon beats Hari but not as easily as I thought. Your note, and ones like RTP's reassessment, are THE reason I like running these tournaments. I thank you both, as well as everyone else that puts effort into not only typing a note, but listening to albums they feel should be reexplored before voting, and then explaining the process. I have a review of POB that I started to post this time (many of the players have seen it, and maybe more than once), but since both sides are going to advance to the next round, I'm going to save it for the next round. JcS |
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