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Post by joeyself on Jan 25, 2011 10:39:56 GMT -5
VENUS AND MARS, Side 2 vs. PLASTIC ONO BAND, Side 2
VENUS AND MARS, Side 2
1."Venus and Mars (Reprise)" – 2:05
2."Spirits of Ancient Egypt" (Denny Laine) – 3:04
3."Medicine Jar" (Jimmy McCulloch/Colin Allen) – 3:37
4."Call Me Back Again" – 4:59
5."Listen to What the Man Said" – 4:01
6."Treat Her Gently/Lonely Old People" – 4:21
7."Crossroads Theme" (Tony Hatch) – 1:00
PLASTIC ONO BAND, Side 2
1. "Remember" – 4:33
2. "Love" – 3:21
3. "Well Well Well" – 5:59
4. "Look at Me" – 2:53
5. "God" – 4:09
6. "My Mummy's Dead" – 0:49
These two albums took out Ringo sides last time; V&M 2 skunked RINGO THE IV by 15-0, while POB 2 thumped BEAUCOUPS OF BLUES 1 17-0.
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Post by vectisfabber on Jan 25, 2011 11:15:43 GMT -5
Simple. I like Venus And Mars 2 (despite the execrable Call Me Back Again) and I don't like JLPOB 2 (despite the tender Love).
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Post by mikev on Jan 25, 2011 11:25:31 GMT -5
POB gets it.
This side of V & M features a reprise, a Denny Laine song, a Jimmy M song and a cover. While I enjoy the Denny and Jimmy songs, they definitely muddy up the assessment.
Listen to What the Man Said, while not my favorite Paul tune- still was a huge hit- Call Me Back again is also a big one to me.
but they can't carry this side into the next round.
Remember, Love and God are huge. God is now a bit dated, but still packs a punch. Look at Me is a White Album cut type of song.
This one will probably be in the elite 8 at least.
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Post by ReturnToPepperland on Jan 25, 2011 11:26:58 GMT -5
This is a tough one for me. I've removed a throw away from each side and one other song (from V&M) to come to an equal number of songs on each side. My Mummy's Dead is Three Blind Mice for the depressed.
Oh I'll just get this done now.
VENUS AND MARS, Side 2
1."Venus and Mars (Reprise)" – 2:05 8.5
2."Medicine Jar" – 3:37 9.5
3."Call Me Back Again" – 4:59 8.5
4."Listen to What the Man Said" – 4:01 10
5. Trean Her Gently/Lonely Old People - 4:21 6
PLASTIC ONO BAND, Side 2
1. "Remember" – 4:33 8.5
2. "Love" – 3:21 10
3. Well Well Well - 5:59 6.5
4. "Look at Me" – 2:53 8.5
5. "God" – 4:09 9
42.5 to 42.5 Avg 8.5
Since I had to remove a clunker from V&M the winner is...
POB.
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Post by coachbk on Jan 25, 2011 12:38:52 GMT -5
The better side of POB against the weaker side of V&M puts this one in favor of POB. Only "Well Well Well" is a weak cut on POB. Only "Venus And Mars" (reprise) and "Listen To What The Man Said" are above average on V&M (though I do like the live versions on WINGS OVER AMERICA of "Spirits Of Ancient Egypt" and "Medicine Jar" quite a bit.
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Joseph McCabe
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Post by Joseph McCabe on Jan 25, 2011 15:42:14 GMT -5
I must say, a lot of these Round 2 matches are quite easy.
What do we have here? A tornado of rock music, one half of one of the great albums, versus a soft breeze of MOR and pseudo-rock, just strong enough to get the old folk tapping their feet.
Yes, yes, I know I'm overstating it - but I'm exaggerating to make a point.
Lennon wins.
McCabe
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Post by John S. Damm on Jan 25, 2011 19:46:59 GMT -5
PLASTIC ONO BAND, Side 2
I have come to love POB-2 more than POB-1 and that is because of "Remember," one of the great piano driven Rock songs. I get restless during "Love" but I am always thrilled or pushed by everything else, even "My Mummy's Dead" which not so long ago I played several times in a row, so transfixed was I by it.
V & M-2? "Listen to What the Man Said" is good but the rest is pleasant at best, obnoxious at worst, i.e. "Call Me Back Again" and "Spirits of Ancient Egypt."
Jimmy McCulloch manfully tries to save the day with "Medicine Jar." Paul was clearly looking past this album to his big return to the U.S.
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Post by ursamajor on Jan 25, 2011 19:50:40 GMT -5
I like Medicine Jar alot and it is one of Wings' greatest rock songs which Paul ignored on Wingspan. Listen To What the Man Said is also a great pop tune by Paul , just a gorgeous gorgeous melody. The rest of the songs are ok but I think they take away the rock aspect of Venus and Mars.
JL-POB -2 really is fantastic for what it is. I related to this from the time I first heard it and it's still able to bring me up when I need it. I love John's guitar screeching on Well Well Well, more than his vocal screeches.
I voted for JL/POB-2
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 26, 2011 3:44:16 GMT -5
VENUS AND MARS, Side 2
this is one of the best album sides of Macca's solo career,it's a better album to listen to for entertainment value than John's POB.....
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Jan 26, 2011 7:17:03 GMT -5
My Mummy's Dead is Three Blind Mice for the depressed. And it was also extremely powerful and floored me in its stark and haunting simplicity the very first time I ever heard it tacked onto the end of that masterful LP. Very creepy, and that was the point. It worked perfectly. I voted for John's untitled LP, which we have come to call PLASTIC ONO BAND. I love Paul's VAM (it's one of my very favorites), but if it's paired to this side of John's, I have to give Lennon the edge. |
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Post by RockoRoll on Jan 26, 2011 10:45:03 GMT -5
VENUS AND MARS, Side 2All songs on V&M-2 are rated 5 (or 10/10), with POB l love *Remember* and *Love* both rated at 5, God - 4, the others barely a 2..... 
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JCV
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Post by JCV on Jan 26, 2011 12:44:59 GMT -5
VENUS AND MARS, Side 2Totally agree with you, Rocko.  Rock on, Paulie!!!!  JCV 
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diego
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Post by diego on Jan 26, 2011 21:07:26 GMT -5
Another very easy match. A Lennon masterpiece versus a rather mediocre side of Wings.
'Venus & Mars' is nice but didn't need a reprise, the opening version is better. 'Spirits' is nothing memorable. 'Medicine Jar' is good. 'Call Me Back Again' is boring, you got to admire Paul's vocal though, but it's not enough to save the song. 'Listen' is well recorded but again is boring, it was the beginning of a string of boring singles (followed by 'Let Em In', 'Silly Love Songs' and 'With A Little Luck' all a bit boring IMO). 'Treat Her Gently...' it's OK, has a nice message.
As for POB, there's little I can say that hasn't been said. God is one of John's top songs. That moment when the music stops and he sings "I just believe in me" gets me everytime. I think it's a really nice message too.
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Post by John S. Damm on Jan 27, 2011 23:29:56 GMT -5
There is an entrenched anti-JL/POB crowd here that will obviously vote for anything other than POB! Put Side 2 from Ringo The 4th against it and they'll vote Ringo. We saw the ridiculous voting in the Round where some mediocre Side of London Town almost beat a Side from JL/POB! Same here with the insanely weak V&M-2 staying within striking distance of the masterpiece POB-2. No wonder some don't play these contests.  Protest votes I guess but then again, "Treat Her Gently/Crossroads Theme" is so freaking compelling! ;D |
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Post by joeyself on Jan 28, 2011 10:07:36 GMT -5
There is an entrenched anti-JL/POB crowd here that will obviously vote for anything other than POB! Put Side 2 from Ringo The 4th against it and they'll vote Ringo. We saw the ridiculous voting in the Round where some mediocre Side of London Town almost beat a Side from JL/POB! Same here with the insanely weak V&M-2 staying within striking distance of the masterpiece POB-2. No wonder some don't play these contests. Protest votes I guess but then again, "Treat Her Gently/Crossroads Theme" is so freaking compelling! ;D I've not voted yet, because both sides end weakly, and it IS closer than I thought it would be. But did you notice POB got the vote from RTP? That must restore SOME of your faith in humanity... JcS |
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Post by John S. Damm on Jan 28, 2011 10:23:34 GMT -5
There is an entrenched anti-JL/POB crowd here that will obviously vote for anything other than POB! Put Side 2 from Ringo The 4th against it and they'll vote Ringo. We saw the ridiculous voting in the Round where some mediocre Side of London Town almost beat a Side from JL/POB! Same here with the insanely weak V&M-2 staying within striking distance of the masterpiece POB-2. No wonder some don't play these contests. Protest votes I guess but then again, "Treat Her Gently/Crossroads Theme" is so freaking compelling! ;D I've not voted yet, because both sides end weakly, and it IS closer than I thought it would be. But did you notice POB got the vote from RTP? That must restore SOME of your faith in humanity... JcS Kudos to RTP for voting objectively although far be from me to criticize the criteria a voter uses except it is clear POB so polarizes some that they will never vote for it even if they secretly recognize its distinguished place in Rock history and know it is better than what they are voting for but are just mad that John didn't want to play moptop anymore! STINYC is polarizing too but it is just not that good so even those of us who kind of like it know it can't beat most other Sides in later Rounds if it can even get that far. POB is that good that when it gets routinely voted against by the same posters even when matched with fluff, I smell hard feelings against it that have nothing to do with its artistic merit. My rant for the day(maybe). ;D I see the gap has closed even more as "Crossroads Theme" is carrying the day! |
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Post by brothermichael on Jan 28, 2011 11:30:53 GMT -5
I've not voted yet, because both sides end weakly JcS Then again, it might be argued that only the Beatles have rivaled the power of "God" and "My Mummy's Dead" as an ending to an LP. POB ends with a cartharsis that is unique in rock and roll. Not to everyone's taste, of course, but I would think undeniable in its power. |
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Post by John S. Damm on Jan 28, 2011 13:34:45 GMT -5
I've not voted yet, because both sides end weakly JcS Then again, it might be argued that only the Beatles have rivaled the power of "God" and "My Mummy's Dead" as an ending to an LP. POB ends with a cartharsis that is unique in rock and roll. Not to everyone's taste, of course, but I would think undeniable in its power. Very true. Another stunning album closer that was cathartic to at least us fans is the end of George's Brainwashed. Wow, the chanting at the end totally surprised me that first listen and completely overwhelmed me. It stills moves and comforts me a lot. Again, it is not everyone's bag but was very appropriate IMO for George. Too bad that isn't nearly so famous as the ending of JL/POB. RS called the final section of "God" one of the most dramatic moments in Rock. MMD does nothing to lessen the impact with me. |
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wooltonian
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Post by wooltonian on Jan 28, 2011 13:41:14 GMT -5
V&M 2
My head screams at me POB 2, but I prefer the relatively mediocre, but easier, Venus and Mars.
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Post by ReturnToPepperland on Jan 28, 2011 14:18:59 GMT -5
POB isn't John's best, but its damn good. Thanks for the acknowledgement.
God is an interesting song, but not so much so for the melody which is a bit repetiitve. Its more the drama which, by the way, is oddly missing in John's demos of the song. A lot is missing in some of those rough demos Yoko released. In fact, I wouldn't have released some of them at all.
We can forgive John his grammatical lapse: "I just believe in me...Yoko and me" (should be Yoko and I") but how do you rhyme that? "...Yoko and I. Now Paul can REALLY die." No.
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diego
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Post by diego on Jan 28, 2011 14:39:24 GMT -5
Maybe the problem with POB is that is not an everyday album. You need a certain mood to appreciate it. I've read that some people find it depressing, though with me it actually has the opposite effect, it cheers me up.
I'd say it's John's best. I would even say that it may be the best solo Beatle album, though my favorite will always be Ram.
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Post by acebackwords on Jan 28, 2011 15:23:05 GMT -5
We can forgive John his grammatical lapse: "I just believe in me...Yoko and me" (should be Yoko and I") but how do you rhyme that? "...Yoko and I. Now Paul can REALLY die." No. Personally, I always preferred saying "Joe and me" or "Bill and me" or whatever. Just sounds better to me. And I have to fight with editors every time they try and change it on grammatical grounds. In a similar vein I heard when Pat Boone was recording a cover of "Ain't That a Shame" he wanted to change it to the grammatically correct "Isn't That a Shame." Fortunately the producer over-rode him. |
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Post by ReturnToPepperland on Jan 28, 2011 16:06:28 GMT -5
Maybe the problem with POB is that is not an everyday album. You need a certain mood to appreciate it. I've read that some people find it depressing, though with me it actually has the opposite effect, it cheers me up. I'd say it's John's best. I would even say that it may be the best solo Beatle album, though my favorite will always be Ram. I prefer Double Fantasy and songs like Nobody Told Me from that era. John was in a great rebirth when he was killed. If we are talking about 1970s albums, I have to give Imagine the nod as John's best. |
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Post by brothermichael on Jan 28, 2011 16:24:26 GMT -5
We can forgive John his grammatical lapse: "I just believe in me...Yoko and me" (should be Yoko and I") but how do you rhyme that? "...Yoko and I. Now Paul can REALLY die." No. I don't think that's a grammatical lapse.  Me is the object of the preposition, whether it's the first reference or the repeated "Yoko and me." |
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Jan 28, 2011 16:34:23 GMT -5
We can forgive John his grammatical lapse: "I just believe in me...Yoko and me" (should be Yoko and I") Or I WANNA hold your hand (as they sing it in the song). Or, YEAH YEAH YEAH... |
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Post by ReturnToPepperland on Jan 28, 2011 16:50:26 GMT -5
We can forgive John his grammatical lapse: "I just believe in me...Yoko and me" (should be Yoko and I") Or I WANNA hold your hand (as they sing it in the song). Or, YEAH YEAH YEAH... I know. There are many examples where it was wise lyrically to "go with the flow" of the song and not be concerned about grammar. What about the grammar error that never was: Live and Let Die. Some believe Paul is singing "but in this ever changing world in which we live in." when he actually sings "but in this ever changing world in which we're livin' " where he drops the "g" as he often does. |
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Joseph McCabe
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Post by Joseph McCabe on Jan 28, 2011 18:16:58 GMT -5
We can forgive John his grammatical lapse: "I just believe in me...Yoko and me" (should be Yoko and I") but how do you rhyme that? "...Yoko and I. Now Paul can REALLY die." No. I don't think that's a grammatical lapse. Me is the object of the preposition, whether it's the first reference or the repeated "Yoko and me." Absolutely correct, brothermichael. RTP, you certainly goofed here, and I expect an apology from you. McCabe |
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Post by ReturnToPepperland on Jan 28, 2011 20:18:46 GMT -5
I don't think that's a grammatical lapse. Me is the object of the preposition, whether it's the first reference or the repeated "Yoko and me." Absolutely correct, brothermichael. RTP, you certainly goofed here, and I expect an apology from you. McCabe Yoko and me believe in reality. Yoko and I believe in reality. In this case, it is correct to use a pronoun that will be appropriate whether you are referring to yourself or to you and another person. Hence when you remover reference to the other person, the sentence must still read the same. Remove reference to Yoko you have Me believe in reality or I believe in reality. The latter is correct. |
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Post by brothermichael on Jan 28, 2011 20:22:07 GMT -5
Absolutely correct, brothermichael. RTP, you certainly goofed here, and I expect an apology from you. McCabe Yoko and me believe in reality. Yoko and I believe in reality. In this case, it is correct to use a pronoun that will be appropriate whether you are referring to yourself or to you and another person. Hence when you remover reference to the other person, the sentence must still read the same. Remove reference to Yoko you have Me believe in reality or I believe in reality. The latter is correct. Sorry, wrong. You've changed the sentence and the pronoun to the subjective case. As written in the song, it's objective case. "I just believe in me, (I just believe in) Yoko and me." |
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Joseph McCabe
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Post by Joseph McCabe on Jan 28, 2011 20:30:20 GMT -5
Absolutely correct, brothermichael. RTP, you certainly goofed here, and I expect an apology from you. McCabe Yoko and me believe in reality. Yoko and I believe in reality. In this case, it is correct to use a pronoun that will be appropriate whether you are referring to yourself or to you and another person. Hence when you remover reference to the other person, the sentence must still read the same. Remove reference to Yoko you have Me believe in reality or I believe in reality. The latter is correct. You have no idea at all! Let's take it one step at a time. (1) "in" is a prepositon. The noun it governs is in the objective case. (2) In English, most words don't change their form with their case. (3) The first person pronoun does change its form with its case. The objective case of the first person pronoun is "me". So, it's "in me", not "in I". (4) So, "I just believe in me" is correct. And when John continues, "Yoko and me", he is telling us he believes in Yoko as well. He's saying in effect "I ... believe in Yoko and me". It still has to be "me", because of the preposition "in". Easy, when you know how. Check up on what I say, by all means. Consult references. And when you realize you are wrong, come back and say so ... if you're big enough. McCabe PS (added later when I saw brothermichael had responded) - I was composing my post as brothermichael replied. I wanted it clear we responded independently. Brothermichael is totally correct - and more succinct than me! |
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Protest votes I guess but then again, "Treat Her Gently/Crossroads Theme" is so freaking compelling! ;D
Me is the object of the preposition, whether it's the first reference or the repeated "Yoko and me."