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Post by Joe Karlosi on Mar 20, 2012 6:08:21 GMT -5
Comment and/or vote on this song:
4=Great 3=Good 2=Average 1=Crap
"Attica State" - John Lennon, SOME TIME IN NEW YORK CITY, 1972
"Attica State"
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Mar 20, 2012 6:14:02 GMT -5
3 --- I think I may be the only one who'll rate this song as "Good", but I love the way it rocks and moves. I enjoy it more for its overall sound than I do the words. I'm not in agreement with its bleeding heart sentiment about defending vile prisoners, but I admire that John and Yoko believed in this and stood by their convictions.
The words are difficult to understand unless you read the lyrcis while listening. Last night I played this song for my girlfriend while she was fixing dinner and she said she couldn't make out what the hell they were singing.
SOME TIME IN NYC -- the album -- is John's most lambasted album. It's outdated but I do enjoy it, and it was even more fun listening to it recently on original vinyl with the large newspaper cover (a very clever presentation), complete with original paper inserts.
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Post by Steve Marinucci on Mar 20, 2012 7:06:05 GMT -5
I give this one a 2. Yoko's vocals don't help it.
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Post by ursamajor on Mar 20, 2012 7:30:55 GMT -5
It's a great rocking song but yes I agree I don't understand why John and Yoko are supporting prisoners for, I am ignorant to what this song is about but it sounds good. It's very melodic and a time when we could still believe in people power.
I'll give it a 3*
* If the subject matter was different I would give it a 4
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Post by John S. Damm on Mar 20, 2012 8:47:47 GMT -5
I give this song a 1.5 because I don't want to summarily dismiss it as "Crap" but to call it "Average" may be too kind. It does rock so it gets that extra .50 from me but the subject matter is offensive to me.
Mark D. Chapman is imprisoned in Attica Correctional Facility so does this song now also encompass him? "Free the prisoners, jail the judges...." Yoko has correctly spoken out against an early release for that person.
I prefer Yoko's "Born In A Prison" solely for the great line, "Wood becomes a flute when it's loved, reach for yourself and your battered mate."
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Post by coachbk on Mar 20, 2012 8:50:03 GMT -5
1 This is just awful. Boring and repetitive. Very unpleasant vocals. Terrible lyrics. Doesn't rock hard enough to overcome all the other deficiencies and no real melody to speak of.
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Mar 20, 2012 9:22:18 GMT -5
Aw, you went and gave "Lennon's Killer" more fame, JSD! You mentioned the name of He Who Must Not Be Named!
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Post by mikev on Mar 20, 2012 9:24:17 GMT -5
1 for me.
Political nonsense in the air...
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Post by John S. Damm on Mar 20, 2012 9:33:06 GMT -5
Aw, you went and gave "Lennon's Killer" more fame, JSD! You mentioned the name of He Who Must Not Be Named! Joe, you know my feeling on that as I do yours. His name is out there and has been out there since the night of Dec. 8, 1980, and I feel like a whitewash if I never mention it in any context. We mention John Wilkes Booth and Lee Harvey Oswald without a flinch. The genie is out of the bottle as to him. I don't say it to shock or glorify but as a representation of fact that that man is incarcerated in Attica which seems weird in light of John and Yoko's song sympathetic to prisoners there. The song refers to the early 1970's prisoner uprising but then also goes beyond that incident and suggests all prisoners are wrongly imprisoned.
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Mar 20, 2012 10:56:08 GMT -5
Aw, you went and gave "Lennon's Killer" more fame, JSD! You mentioned the name of He Who Must Not Be Named! Joe, you know my feeling on that as I do yours. His name is out there and has been out there since the night of Dec. 8, 1980, and I feel like a whitewash if I never mention it in any context. We mention John Wilkes Booth and Lee Harvey Oswald without a flinch. The genie is out of the bottle as to him. Actually, no - I didn't realize that you were one of those "fans" who tended to glorify the killer. (And think about it - writing 'the killer' or 'the jerk' takes even less time and effort than writing his name does!). I knew there were some, but I didn't realize you were one, (sorry there). A few reactions of to your post... 1.) Did Booth and Oswald do it "to acquire Lincoln or Kennedy's fame and to be popular"? Did they call themselves "A nobody who wanted to be a Somebody"...? 2.) Even if they DID kill Lincoln and Kennedy "to acquire their fame", I don't care about Lincoln or Kennedy, so I'd use their killers' names... but I do care about the memory of John Lennon. 3.) I think it's always possible to "put the genie back in its bottle", and especially for new generations of fans who weren't around then. Maybe we used the jerk's name more in the 1980s, but it doesn't mean we can't start refusing to do his bidding in the 2000's and beyond as well. With enough ignorance of him, people will start to say "what was that guy's name again...?" 4.) Booth and Oswald are dead. They gain no hard-on by hearing anyone mention them anymore, but the Jerk is still alive and eagerly paying attention. Just a suggestion, but I'm not trying to be anyone's boss. But consider the next time you name this moron that it takes less effort in not spelling his name out, and also feels great calling him negative slurs instead of respecting his namesake. Just a thought. Believe it or not, I used to feel like you do once.
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Post by acebackwords on Mar 20, 2012 10:56:46 GMT -5
This song truly makes me sick. I remember all the heroic press conferences John & Yoko were doing back then at the height of their radical chic period. I'll have to look up some of the actual quotes for you. J&Y demanding that all the prisoners at Attica be released because they're "political prisoner" (kept down by the Man, man!). (Gee, John Lennon had only been living in America for about 2 months and yet the great man was already ready to completely revamp our criminal justice system -- whatta' guy!)
Course now that Chapman is locked up there, ole Yoko seems to be singing a different tune. No I'm sorry, this one really disgusts me.
One of the women at one of the press conferences (a native New Yorker) summed up J&Y's horseshit perfectly. "You are setting up thieves and murderers as heroes." She went on to explain that she was afraid to walk the streets at night because of those types which is why she wanted to keep them behind bars.
To which Yoko sagely responded: "I know this sounds corny but all they need is more love (classic J&Y, saving the world and plugging their product all in one soundbite). You can keep them in cages as long as you like, but unless you give them more love they'll just become more frustrated and violent."
So theres the answer for you. Send the likes of Yoko Ono to Attica to heal the prisoners with big dollops of her stinking love.
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Mar 20, 2012 11:00:20 GMT -5
Well, it's completely natural that people grow and change their stance on things over time, sometimes pending on their own personal experiences. Even Bob Dylan wrote "I used to care but things have changed" recently (after writing THE TIMES THEY ARE A-CHANGIN' as a naive youth).
Another thing is, while I don't condone what violent criminals do, I do think many times you'll find they did, in fact, grow up without love and care.
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Post by ReturnToPepperland on Mar 20, 2012 12:21:33 GMT -5
Well, it's completely natural that people grow and change their stance on things over time, sometimes pending on their own personal experiences. Even Bob Dylan wrote "I used to care but things have changed" recently (after writing THE TIMES THEY ARE A-CHANGIN' as a naive youth). Another thing is, while I don't condone what violent criminals do, I do think many times you'll find they did, in fact, grow up without love and care. But see, a lot of people grow up without love and care and don't become murderers and thieves. I have no patience for that whole mindset. Yes our prisons should do a better job at rehabilitation but that costs money which we don't have. But while they are rehabbing they also need to be locked up and if you make it too comfortable it will only act as a respite for them between committing their crimes. One approach shouldn't replace the other especially for the violent criminals. As for the druggies, many of them are dealers and deserve what they got for putting others at risk of getting invovled in that lifestyle. This is the same idea certain politicians have about Al Queda and Iran. Let's just treat them well and they will be our friend when everything else, their actions, their beliefs, their desires are that we deserve the worst they can give. It's naieve and even worse dangerous. As for the song, the lyrics aren't even good poetry and the music is among John's worst. It is also terribly dated. We don't put people in jail for posession of two joints anymore. I give it a 1.
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Mar 20, 2012 12:38:43 GMT -5
But see, a lot of people grow up without love and care and don't become murderers and thieves. I have no patience for that whole mindset. Yes our prisons should do a better job at rehabilitation but that costs money which we don't have. I realize that not everyone growing up without and love and care become murderers; I said "many" (not "all") of the killers fit that description of never having had love and care (which is a different thing). I'm not saying it's excusable or anything, I'm just saying it often is the case. But I don't believe in "rehabilitation" for killers. Once you've killed you've given up your membership card to the human race, regardless. Screw 'em. Doesn't matter if the music is dated, IMO. How many of us here still love the SGT PEPPER album even though it ain't the Summer Of Love anymore? The song and album must be listened to in the context of the times, just as an old newspaper article is read for historical purposes.
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Post by John S. Damm on Mar 20, 2012 12:43:46 GMT -5
Joe, I am no less a fan of The Beatles or John Lennon because I don't shy away from writing out(or speaking) the man's name. We cannot erase it from the face of the earth and at the end of the day, what good did his 10 minutes of fame buy him?
He is most likely in prison for life, he has not gotten rich and he is one of the most hated men on Earth, more hated than many government leaders who probably killed even more people. He will have no real life outside of prison even should he be released someday.
My naming him does not reflect any sympathy on my part for the man. I have nothing but contempt for him. Yet those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it and MDC's should not be forgotten least his evil act be forgotten and thus repeated.
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lowbasso
A Hard Day's Knight
Posts: 2,776
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Post by lowbasso on Mar 20, 2012 13:19:53 GMT -5
Joe, you know my feeling on that as I do yours. His name is out there and has been out there since the night of Dec. 8, 1980, and I feel like a whitewash if I never mention it in any context. We mention John Wilkes Booth and Lee Harvey Oswald without a flinch. The genie is out of the bottle as to him. Actually, no - I didn't realize that you were one of those "fans" who tended to glorify the killer. (And think about it - writing 'the killer' or 'the jerk' takes even less time and effort than writing his name does!). I knew there were some, but I didn't realize you were one, (sorry there). A few reactions of to your post... 1.) Did Booth and Oswald do it "to acquire Lincoln or Kennedy's fame and to be popular"? Did they call themselves "A nobody who wanted to be a Somebody"...? 2.) Even if they DID kill Lincoln and Kennedy "to acquire their fame", I don't care about Lincoln or Kennedy, so I'd use their killers' names... but I do care about the memory of John Lennon. 3.) I think it's always possible to "put the genie back in its bottle", and especially for new generations of fans who weren't around then. Maybe we used the jerk's name more in the 1980s, but it doesn't mean we can't start refusing to do his bidding in the 2000's and beyond as well. With enough ignorance of him, people will start to say "what was that guy's name again...?" 4.) Booth and Oswald are dead. They gain no hard-on by hearing anyone mention them anymore, but the Jerk is still alive and eagerly paying attention. Just a suggestion, but I'm not trying to be anyone's boss. But consider the next time you name this moron that it takes less effort in not spelling his name out, and also feels great calling him negative slurs instead of respecting his namesake. Just a thought. Believe it or not, I used to feel like you do once. Have to agree with Joe here. It's hard for me to understand how any serious Beatlefan could mention, much less write the name of the animal that murdered John. Especially while the animal is still alive. We Beatlefans need to, of all people, continue to refuse to ever quote that name in order to show the world it has no place being mentioned in Beatles history other than in a statement, like in an encyclopedia, reporting the incident for historical purposes.
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Post by John S. Damm on Mar 20, 2012 14:02:42 GMT -5
Have to agree with Joe here. It's hard for me to understand how any serious Beatlefan could mention, much less write the name of the animal that murdered John. Especially while the animal is still alive. We Beatlefans need to, of all people, continue to refuse to ever quote that name in order to show the world it has no place being mentioned in Beatles history other than in a statement, like in an encyclopedia, reporting the incident for historical purposes. I know that is your opinion lowbasso as we have discussed this before and I respect those who will never utter or write his name. I respectfully disagree with the reasoning given. I feel we must confront the killer and his horrible crime head on.
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Post by vectisfabber on Mar 20, 2012 14:11:43 GMT -5
On the assumption that Chapman did it for notoriety ie. cultivating his "fame base", us mentioning his name doesn't increase his notoriety - we all know it - but discussing him at length kind of does. He's just a pitiful little scumbag, not Voldemort.
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Mar 20, 2012 14:27:31 GMT -5
I know that is your opinion lowbasso as we have discussed this before and I respect those who will never utter or write his name. I respectfully disagree with the reasoning given. I feel we must confront the killer and his horrible crime head on. JSD, could you explain to us how not mentioning the jerk's name is somehow "not facing the crime"? I face it almost every day in my mind. I never try to run from it or pretend it doesn't exist or never happened. What's wrong with confronting him as an a-hole? I realize this is a controversial subject, but I'm gonna say it straight. I think it's disgraceful that "Beatle fans" continue to address that creep by name, and basically help him spread his popularity. I will continue to consider it the same as saying "F You" to John Lennon. Lowbasso is right that, at the very least, this vermin has no business being mentioned by name on a Beatles Message Board. You're entitled to feel that way. And I am entitled to have doubts sometimes. You say "shy away" as if to suggest we're "afraid" to use his name or something. I'm not afraid, and I used to use it myself for a long time. Then I realized he doesn't deserve to be called by his name, nor does he deserve the recognition. The reason I have made my choice is not because I'm "afraid to face it". We cannot erase the deed, but we can decrease his notoriety. It would indeed have been "only 10 minutes of fame" if his name was not mentioned routinely anymore. It's been more like 32 years of fame though, because he's named. Ah, but he glows. Ever see pics of him... updated mugshots and things when he's up for a new parol? He has a proud-ish grin on his face, even now. The snake has nothing to live for except to see his name on TV every now and then, or to read books and have internet access where he can see he is well-known. He says he now realizes he's in actuality a 'nobody' due to his crime, but I often think he's bluffing. Who knows... You keep on equating not naming him with "forgetting the incident". The incident will always be remembered. But saying instead that "some nut killed John Lennon in Dec. 1980" gets the point across and we never forget ... but he gets no attention. No, your naming him does not give him sympathy; it gives him notoriety.
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Post by joshferrell on Mar 20, 2012 15:15:21 GMT -5
I give it a 1,,also I give the whole album a 1...
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Mar 20, 2012 15:37:09 GMT -5
I give it a 1,,also I give the whole album a 1... Every song on the album is a "1"... literally?
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Post by John S. Damm on Mar 20, 2012 16:26:16 GMT -5
JSD, could you explain to us how not mentioning the jerk's name is somehow "not facing the crime"? I face it almost every day in my mind. I never try to run from it or pretend it doesn't exist or never happened. What's wrong with confronting him as an a-hole? I realize this is a controversial subject, but I'm gonna say it straight. I think it's disgraceful that "Beatle fans" continue to address that creep by name, and basically help him spread his popularity. I will continue to consider it the same as saying "F You" to John Lennon. Lowbasso is right that, at the very least, this vermin has no business being mentioned by name on a Beatles Message Board. To me calling him "Jerk of All Jerks"* is a whitewash of history. The murder happened, the killer was named and continues to be named in every book, article and news account of the murder. If I say his name it does not undo what was done or add to his infamy or notoriety. That was secured forever the first time he was named as he was bound to be. I feel that by my changing how I refer to Chapman is letting him have power or control over me. I would then be altering my behavior for him. He doesn't control me and I de-mystify him by referring to him in his real name. I can't say anymore than that. He is now a prisoner in the same prison John sang about in a song declaring that all prisoners were wrongfully held. My question stands: does John's killer now get incorporated into the sentiments of "Attica State?" * Paul's published poem by the way probably gave the guy more satisfaction or notoriety than any of us can because the killer and all of us knew who Paul McCartney, ex-Beatle, was talking about in such a high profile platform as his first book of poetry.
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Mar 20, 2012 16:39:21 GMT -5
I can't say anymore than that. He is now a prisoner in the same prison John sang about in a song declaring that all prisoners were wrongfully held. My question stands: does John's killer now get incorporated into the sentiments of "Attica State?" I answered that question (back in reply #11). I said that it's perfectly natural for people to grow and change their views over time and as a result of their personal experiences. It wouldn't be a surprise to me if Yoko took back the sentiment of ATTICA STATE now, 40 years after the incident. But so what? The album was supposed to be like a newspaper reporting where things were at during that specific time in 1972. It isn't 1972 anymore and things have changed for Yoko and the rest of us.
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Post by debjorgo on Mar 20, 2012 18:16:04 GMT -5
You guys are getting his name wrong anyway. I'm pretty sure it's Puss Sucker. That's what I heard.
The song, it's not bad. I think it's like Imagine. It says what it does to shock you. You look at things from that angle and then figure out where you stand. People are in prison because of their politics, because they did not have a chance in life, because they lived a childhood of violence, ....
Look at all of the prison reform that has gone on since the early '70.
It's a tough question. Ask somebody what they think on the subject and then again after they are the victim of violent crime. Of course their opinion changes.
The song's a 1 on musical merits. I bump it up to 2 because of the lyrical content.
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kc
Beatle Freak
Posts: 1,085
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Post by kc on Mar 20, 2012 18:26:59 GMT -5
I rate the song 2 (average). I don't mind it as a rock tune of reasonable quality, but the argument of the lyrics is something else.
Lennon has it partly correct, Attica State Penitentiary was in need of updating from what I have read about the facility. It was seriously overcrowded and the treatment of prisoners apparently was often excessive.
On the other hand, a good proportion of those inmates do seem to have been little more than cut-throats, for which I have no sympathy.
The printed lyrics on the two CD versions of the album that I own read, "free the prisoners, free the judges." Yet Lennon actually sings, "free the prisoners, jail the judges." What appeared on the cover of the original vinyl release? Is this revisionism, second thoughts, cowardice...?
Final comments: I understand the hatred of Chapman amongst Beatles fans. On a selfish note, we may have missed out on thirty years of John's work because of this murdering pig. However, to suggest that his name must not even be mentioned, even in print, is utterly ridiculous and comletely childish. The vast majority of us never knew John personally. John Lennon's murder is now part of the historical record. It was one of the most significant events in the story of popular music in the rock era. It is right that it should be discussed. We should have no fear of thought police in doing so.
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Post by acebackwords on Mar 20, 2012 18:32:48 GMT -5
I can't say anymore than that. He is now a prisoner in the same prison John sang about in a song declaring that all prisoners were wrongfully held. My question stands: does John's killer now get incorporated into the sentiments of "Attica State?" I answered that question (back in reply #11). I said that it's perfectly natural for people to grow and change their views over time and as a result of their personal experiences. It wouldn't be a surprise to me if Yoko took back the sentiment of ATTICA STATE now, 40 years after the incident. But so what? Thats true, people grow, people change. But what people do also has real consequences in the real world as well as real effect on other people. Here in Berkeley there were plenty of Berkeley radical actvists who worked tirelessly in the 60s and 70s to free the "political prisoners" from San Quentin and other prisons. What they discovered in retrospect (uh duh) was that most of these prisoners on release didn't go on to perform heroic acts of revolution. Most of them just continued to rape, rob, murder and assault until they were finally put back into the cages where they belonged. And I don't think the victims of these crimes would find sollace in hearing Yoko or John shrug: "Oh well, I've changed, I've moved on, it was just a passing fad, oh well . . ."
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Post by vectisfabber on Mar 20, 2012 18:36:15 GMT -5
The lyrics, like most of STINYC, are naive Radical Cause Of The Week Club claptrap.
Musically, I cordially dislike everything Elephant's Memory had a hand in - if ever John lined himself up with anything which made his music sound horrible, it was them. There were some touches of decent melody on STINYC - this wasn't one of them.
STINYC was released in the USA weeks before it arrived in England, and I stumped up over the odds for a US import because I couldn't wait. Spot the Charlie time (good sleeve though).
1.
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Post by debjorgo on Mar 20, 2012 18:39:23 GMT -5
But, to suggest that his name must not even be mentioned is utterly ridiculous and comletely childish. Ridiculous and childish like Lennon's bed-in for peace? What's your idea for making sure that when the question is asked on Jeopardy in 20 years, nobody knows the answer? We're not saying keep it out of the history books, we're saying keep it out of pop culture.
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kc
Beatle Freak
Posts: 1,085
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Post by kc on Mar 20, 2012 18:51:00 GMT -5
But, to suggest that his name must not even be mentioned is utterly ridiculous and comletely childish. Ridiculous and childish like Lennon's bed-in for peace? What's your idea for making sure that when the question is asked on Jeopardy in 20 years, nobody knows the answer? We're not saying keep it out of the history books, we're saying keep it out of pop culture. Re-read my post.
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Post by debjorgo on Mar 20, 2012 18:58:31 GMT -5
Ridiculous and childish like Lennon's bed-in for peace? What's your idea for making sure that when the question is asked on Jeopardy in 20 years, nobody knows the answer? We're not saying keep it out of the history books, we're saying keep it out of pop culture. Re-read my post. Nobody's questioning what can be thought. People do have a right to protest against what they are subjected to. Maybe speaking his name should be restricted to certain areas, certainly not on the public airways. Trebek "Nobody? What is Mike Chambers? We would have accepted Puss Face."
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