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Post by beatlesattheirbest on Jun 12, 2012 10:51:46 GMT -5
on another thread member fabfour listed...
1. Bobby Graham
Graham turned down the offer saying
"I said 'why would want to join a band in Liverpool that nobody's ever heard of'?"
Graham already had a record deal at the time so when he says nobody ever heard of The Beatles, he means nobody outside of Liverpool, NOT in Liverpool itself.
That's one.
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Post by beatlesattheirbest on Jun 12, 2012 10:53:14 GMT -5
2. Johnny Hutchinson
"Brian asked me to join the Beatles and I said, I wouldn’t join the Beatles for a gold clock. There’s only one group as far as I’m concerned and that’s the Big Three. The Beatles can’t make a better sound than that, and Pete Best is a very good friend of mine. I couldn’t do the dirty on him".
That's two.
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Jun 12, 2012 11:05:09 GMT -5
2. Johnny Hutchinson"Brian asked me to join the Beatles and I said, I wouldn’t join the Beatles for a gold clock. There’s only one group as far as I’m concerned and that’s the Big Three. The Beatles can’t make a better sound than that, and Pete Best is a very good friend of mine. I couldn’t do the dirty on him". That's two. Because Johnny Hutchinson says so? I could just as well believe Paul, George, Ringo and George Martin and whatever they've said, no?
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Jun 12, 2012 11:08:13 GMT -5
BATB, why do you begin separate new threads? You and I were already having this discussion in the thread THE BEATLES WERE BEING CALLED A PHENOMENON BEFORE RINGO JOINED, and I presented some Google observations to you there. But instead of replying to them, you've now started this brand new thread.
Is it because I presented things in the RINGO thread that you didn't like and hope will get buried under the carpet?
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andyb
Very Clean
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Post by andyb on Jun 12, 2012 11:08:23 GMT -5
I'm just thankful that The Beatles stuck out for Ringo and didn't let their Manager decide who should be their drummer. That is once they'd decided it wasn't Pete they would need to go "Big Time".
Ringo turned out to be a really great drummer as well as a better "Beatle". Happy days all round.
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Jun 12, 2012 11:10:14 GMT -5
I'm just thankful that The Beatles stuck out for Ringo and didn't let their Manager decide who should be their drummer. That is once they'd decided it wasn't Pete they would need to go "Big Time". Ringo turned out to be a really great drummer as well as a better "Beatle". Happy days all round. Right, THE BEATLES started out once Ringo joined. And J,P,G were pushing for Ringo -- they all liked him and wanted him. Maybe Brian didn't think he was cute enough.
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Post by beatlesattheirbest on Jun 12, 2012 11:10:48 GMT -5
BATB, why do you begin separate new threads? You and I were already having this discussion in the thread THE BEATLES WERE BEING CALLED A PHENOMENON BEFORE RINGO JOINED, and I presented some Google observations to you there. But instead of replying to them, you've now started this brand new thread. Is it because I presented things in the RINGO thread that you didn't like and hope will get buried under the carpet? Although it is true that I spend more time responding to you than everyone else here combined, I don't post just to have discussions with you. It's a different thread because it's a different topic. lol - No, it's not because I hope your responces will get buried under the carpet. You didn't post anything worth responding to.
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andyb
Very Clean
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Post by andyb on Jun 12, 2012 11:11:24 GMT -5
I'm just thankful that The Beatles stuck out for Ringo and didn't let their Manager decide who should be their drummer. That is once they'd decided it wasn't Pete they would need to go "Big Time". Ringo turned out to be a really great drummer as well as a better "Beatle". Happy days all round. Right, THE BEATLES started out once Ringo joined. And the Beatles were pushing for Ringo -- they all liked him and wanted him. Maybe Brian didn't think he was cute enough. Oh I don't know.
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Jun 12, 2012 11:12:43 GMT -5
BATB -- You didn't have any trouble battering me over the head with "Google quotes" of your own in the older thread. Then when I started to offer some quotes back at you, you disappeared and took it all here. Think Paul's view about Allen Klein. Doesn't anyone else see this?
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Post by beatlesattheirbest on Jun 12, 2012 11:14:18 GMT -5
You didn't have any trouble battering me over the head with "Google quotes" of your own in the older thread. Then when I started to offer some quotes back at you, you disappeared and took it all here. Think Paul and Allen Klein. Doesn't anyone else see this? I didn't quote Google. I used Google to find sources, then quoted those sources.
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lowbasso
A Hard Day's Knight
Posts: 2,776
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Post by lowbasso on Jun 12, 2012 11:15:04 GMT -5
2. Johnny Hutchinson"Brian asked me to join the Beatles and I said, I wouldn’t join the Beatles for a gold clock. There’s only one group as far as I’m concerned and that’s the Big Three. The Beatles can’t make a better sound than that, and Pete Best is a very good friend of mine. I couldn’t do the dirty on him". That's two. I find it difficult to believe that neither Brian, nor John, Paul, and George ever mentioned anywhere that other drummers were approached to join the band before Ringo was asked. I would have thought that the anthology (book) would have that information for the sake of accuracy of their history. These quotes you post may be "true" from the perspective of the person(s) who supposedly said them, but as to their accuracy or truth, that is another story. Until Paul decides to either confirm or deny these allegations at some point in the future, then I find them hard to accept. If Brian had indeed offered the drummer job to these guys, he most certainly would have also told them the band was scheduled to record in London on EMI in September, 1962 and that their potential upon finishing those recordings could be significant in terms of national exposure. Wouldn't this have been enough for either drummer to accept the offer. When Ringo was offered the job, he had a nice gig with Rory, doing Butlins, as well as the German clubs, yet he was quick to accept the offer. I remain skeptical of the tuthfulness of these two drummers statements who supposedly were offered the job prior to Ringo, until Paul can confirm it was true. Who else is left now to confirm it other than him? Contact Paul for a statement. As you said; "Gimme some truth!"
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Jun 12, 2012 11:18:37 GMT -5
I didn't quote Google. I used Google to find sources, then quoted those sources. "Semantics" are another of your tricks. OK, then -- sources. You didn't mind listing all kinds of "sources" to me in the other "RINGO" thread. But once I supplied sources of my own, you preferred to let that thread die and instead started this one.
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Jun 12, 2012 11:22:15 GMT -5
These quotes you post may be "true" from the perspective of the person(s) who supposedly said them, but as to their accuracy or truth, that is another story. Until Paul decides to either confirm or deny these allegations at some point in the future, then I find them hard to accept. Thanks for being more succinct than I have been. It doesn't matter one bit what Graham or Hutchinson say or claim. Anyone can claim anything. Did you know I was once asked to join The Beatles? If you look hard enough on Google, that source engine will lead you to the source -- ME! Why, "Beatlesattheirbest", of course...
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Jun 12, 2012 11:25:42 GMT -5
Another thing I would question is what BATB's motive is in constantly trying to diminish Ringo? First in a thread titled "BEATLES WERE BEING CALLED A PHENOMENON BEFORE RINGO JOINED", and now this thread attempting to show that "Ringo wasn't even the first choice".
I'll tell you who the Beatles' LAST choice was for Hamburg - Pete Best.
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andyb
Very Clean
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Post by andyb on Jun 12, 2012 11:31:19 GMT -5
He was also their first choice to be dumped as well. He could have been kept for "live" work don't forget.
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andyb
Very Clean
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Post by andyb on Jun 12, 2012 11:34:21 GMT -5
He was also their first choice to be dumped as well. He could have been kept for "live" work don't forget. Which might be an argument in favour of them not actually liking him as well as not liking his drumming.
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Jun 12, 2012 11:35:40 GMT -5
Although it is true that I spend more time responding to you than everyone else here combined, I don't post just to have discussions with you. Well, that's because I'm the most prominent one really taking the time of challenging you. And actually, you WERE having a discussion with me. You incorrectly listed 'fabfour' as having presented that Graham quote to you at the start of this thread -- but that was me, not FF... If Bobby Graham said: "why would I want to join a band in Liverpool that nobody's ever heard of'?" I guess he did not share Bob Wooler's opinion that the Beatles were a "phenomenon"! Even Brian Epstein did not know they were regulars at the Cavern Club right down the way -- and he owned a music store! Brian had to learn about The Beatles from fans requesting their record from GERMANY! People thought they were a German band! Wow, that's some "phenomenon"!
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Post by beatlesattheirbest on Jun 12, 2012 11:42:02 GMT -5
Another thing I would question is what BATB's motive is in constantly trying to diminish Ringo? First in a thread titled "BEATLES WERE BEING CALLED A PHENOMENON BEFORE RINGO JOINED", and now this thread attempting to show that "Ringo wasn't even the first choice". I'll tell you who the Beatles' LAST choice was for Hamburg - Pete Best. Not true Joe. I am not constantly trying to dimminish Ringo. The phenomenon quote was in responce to you trying to dimminish Pete. You insisted that NOONE called The Beatles a phenomenon until Ringo joined. I proved you were wrong (yet again). I only created the thread about drummers asked before Ringo thread in responce to your claim that NO other drummer was asked before Ringo because he was "the #1 drummer in Liverpool". And, once again you were wrong about your knowledge about early (pre-Ringo) Beatles history. (How many different points have you been proven wrong? It's got to be over 20 by my count) I like Ringo just fine. It is you that has a problem with Pete. You can't stand to see him get any credit for anything and look to slam him at every opportunity, even in threads such as this one that has nothing to do with him. You are correct that Pete was The Beatles last choice. You are correct that Paul and the others search all over (as the letter you from Paul that you keep mentioning confirms). The reason they had to settle on a beginner such as Pete (who had only been drumming for 7-8 months) was that no other drummer in all of Liverpool wanted to uproot their lives and go to Hamburg with that bum band The Beatles. All the more reason they should be grateful for Pete.
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Jun 12, 2012 11:51:08 GMT -5
Not true Joe. I am not constantly trying to dimminish Ringo. The phenomenon quote was in responce to you trying to dimminish Pete. You insisted that NOONE called The Beatles a phenomenon until Ringo joined. You still harping on that stupidity? Is that all you've got? I long ago conceded that Bob Wooler used the word "phenomenon" in a self-serving review. And ever since then I (and others) have been telling you that it means NOTHING. Were they "called" a phenomenon by Wooler? Sure. Were they really a phenomenon because he wanted to call them that? Nope. I recall stating that Ringo was considered the #1 Drummer (which he was), but I don't ever recall stating that "no other drummer was asked before Ringo"... It is ONE by my count, and even then it was a technicality. You proved to me through your usual semantics that (technically speaking) Bob Wooler did call the Beatles a "phenomenon". But for all intents and purposes, that meant nothing in the overall picture. On the other hand, I have tripped YOU up dozens of times. But you either just ignore the points I raise, or else you try to take attention off those other topics by starting fresh new ones like this one. Time for a Reality Check .... before you joined this board I have always liked Pete and have never had a problem with him. I still don't have a problem with Pete, except that you are absurdly elevating his stature in the early days beyond reality. I am deflating your bizarre dream balloon about Pete. There was absolutely nothing "exceptional" about the guy, and he didn't really contribute anything that any other drummer couldn't have added. History proves that the best thing Pete did for The Beatles was to get fired. The Beatles: 1962 - 1970
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Post by beatlesattheirbest on Jun 12, 2012 12:03:58 GMT -5
You still harping on that stupidity? Is that all you've got? I long ago conceded that Bob Wooler used the word "phenomenon" in a self-serving review. And ever since then I (and others) have been telling you that it means NOTHING. Were they "called" a phenomenon by Wooler? Sure. Were they really a phenomenon because he wanted to call them that? Nope. I recall stating that Ringo was considered the #1 Drummer (which he was), but I don't ever recall stating that "no other drummer was asked before Ringo"... It is ONE by my count, and even then it was a technicality. You proved to me through your usual semantics that (technically speaking) Bob Wooler did call the Beatles a "phenomenon". But for all intents and purposes, that meant nothing in the overall picture. On the other hand, I have tripped YOU up dozens of times. But you either just ignore the points I raise, or else you try to take attention off those other topics by starting fresh new ones like this one. Time for a Reality Check .... before you joined this board I have always liked Pete and have never had a problem with him. I still don't have a problem with Pete, except that you are absurdly elevating his stature in the early days beyond reality. I am deflating your bizarre dream balloon about Pete. There was absolutely nothing "exceptional" about the guy, and he didn't really contribute anything that any other drummer could have added. Joe, the phenomenon quote by Wooler was backed up by The Beatles authorized biography that said the same thing. And you have been wrong about a TON of things. For instance, aren't you the guy who insisted that Norman Chapman played with The Beatles for 3 months only to have me correct you by informing you Chapman played 3 gigs, not 3 months?
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Jun 12, 2012 12:08:38 GMT -5
And you have been wrong about a TON of things. For instance, aren't you the guy who insisted that Norman Chapman played with The Beatles for 3 months only to have me correct you by informing you Chapman played 3 gigs, not 3 months? I read it was 3 months, but you say it was only 3 gigs. (Even if I was wrong, it's not my fault because that's what it said -- and that's not "TONS" of things). Why didn't the Beatles think to hire Pete best "full time" much earlier if they supposedly were so close to him and felt he was such a good drummer? Your "sources" are very dubious and inconclusive.
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Jun 12, 2012 12:11:26 GMT -5
All the more reason they should be grateful for Pete. They should be grateful to Pete for being sacked. That's the best thing that could have happened for THE BEATLES, as history proved. Before then they could not even get a record contract, and Pete's drumming on the Decca Auditions did not help. Other than live performing, Pete really held them back.
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Jun 12, 2012 12:16:55 GMT -5
Joe, the phenomenon quote by Wooler was backed up by The Beatles authorized biography that said the same thing. The Beatles were hardly a literal phenomenon in those days. Even music store owner Brian Epstein never heard of them and they performed right down the way at The Cavern. Everyone thought the Beatles were German. Bobby Graham asked "Why would I want to be in a group nobody's heard of?" Yeah, some "phenomenon". Not everything was correct in that "authorized biography". And by the way, ANTHOLOGY was also "authorized"... so then you should believe everything said there as well.
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Post by ReturnToPepperland on Jun 12, 2012 12:55:20 GMT -5
Did the Beatles ever play a gig with Bobby Graham and Johnny Hutchinson? I have never heard of it. Why would they ask someone to join the group as a permanent member who they never played with?
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Post by ReturnToPepperland on Jun 12, 2012 12:58:13 GMT -5
on another thread member fabfour listed... 1. Bobby GrahamGraham turned down the offer saying "I said 'why would want to join a band in Liverpool that nobody's ever heard of'?"Graham already had a record deal at the time so when he says nobody ever heard of The Beatles, he means nobody outside of Liverpool, NOT in Liverpool itself. That's one. What is the date of this quote? If it is after Pete joined then I guess they certainly weren't a phenomenon in Bobby Graham's eyes. He is saying they were unknowns.
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Post by ReturnToPepperland on Jun 12, 2012 13:00:21 GMT -5
2. Johnny Hutchinson"Brian asked me to join the Beatles and I said, I wouldn’t join the Beatles for a gold clock. There’s only one group as far as I’m concerned and that’s the Big Three. The Beatles can’t make a better sound than that, and Pete Best is a very good friend of mine. I couldn’t do the dirty on him". That's two. This guy is offered as a great judge of musical talent? I have never heard of the Big Three until this moment. And if they were so talented, why didn't Brian or someone give them a contract? If they got a contract, why didn't they make it at all?
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Post by scousette on Jun 12, 2012 13:38:09 GMT -5
The Big Three were one of the most popular bands in Liverpool. I think Johnny Hutchinson played drums for the Beatles during their audition for Larry Parnes because Tommy Moore was late. The Beatles liked Johnny Hutch a lot and liked his playing.
THe Big Three signed a contract with Decca but they never had a big hit.
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Post by beatlesattheirbest on Jun 12, 2012 13:45:08 GMT -5
@rtp
All of the are drummer quotes are in regards being asked to join The Beatles in mid 1962.
Graham already had a record deal, so despite The Beatles being a phenomenon in Liverpool, Graham felt he was better off sticking with what he had. He couldn't be certain The Beatles would be popular outside Liverpool.
Hutchinson had played for The Beatles before. He played and was photographed at the Larry Parnes / Billy Fury session sitting in for Tommy Moore who was late. He also sat in 3 gigs for The Beatles after they sacked Pete and before Ringo joined.
His group The Big Three was VERY successful at the time. You can see them listed on most posters where The Beatles played with other groups. According to those that saw them, they were VERY good.
Also, people who knew Hutch have said he never would have worked out with The Beatles anyway as he was a tough, no nonsence guy who likely would have beat the crap out of John Lennon the first time Lennon started up with him.
They asked both guys because they were good drummers with a good reputation at the time.
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Post by Snookeroo on Jun 12, 2012 13:54:30 GMT -5
Let's not lose sight of the fact that John, Paul, and George's final and "best" choice for their drummer was Ringo Starr. All the right pieces were in place from that moment on. All that happened before that was a different era.
With honorable mention to Brian Epstein and George Martin, without whom....
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Post by beatlesattheirbest on Jun 12, 2012 13:56:59 GMT -5
Let's not lose sight of the fact that John, Paul, and George's final and "best" choice for their drummer was Ringo Starr. All the right pieces were in place from that moment on. All that happened before that was a different era. With honorable mention to Brian Epstein and George Martin, without whom.... I agree. Just because I try to give credit where credit is due to people who played with The Beatles before Ringo, that doesn't mean I am hating on Ringo. Ringo was great!
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