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Post by Steve Marinucci on Nov 12, 2008 12:24:20 GMT -5
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lowbasso
A Hard Day's Knight
Posts: 2,776
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Post by lowbasso on Nov 12, 2008 13:17:40 GMT -5
How ironic that John gets listed as one of the best rock singers ever. He always said he hated his voice and continually asked George Martin to "mask" it by double-tracking, or mixing it down. And Paul isn't even in the top ten?? With all his beautiful ballads like Yesterday, Eleanor Rigby, And I Love Her, etc.? Hmm....
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Post by Steve Marinucci on Nov 12, 2008 13:22:44 GMT -5
How ironic that John gets listed as one of the best rock singers ever. He always said he hated his voice and continually asked George Martin to "mask" it by double-tracking, or mixing it down. And Paul isn't even in the top ten?? With all his beautiful ballads like Yesterday, Eleanor Rigby, And I Love Her, etc.? Hmm.... Like most lists, this one is completely flawed. Sinatra and Tony Bennett aren't on it. Either are Louis Armstrong and Ella Fitzgerald (though Karen Carpenter is). Stupid...
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Post by sayne on Nov 12, 2008 15:20:31 GMT -5
How ironic that John gets listed as one of the best rock singers ever. He always said he hated his voice and continually asked George Martin to "mask" it by double-tracking, or mixing it down. And Paul isn't even in the top ten?? With all his beautiful ballads like Yesterday, Eleanor Rigby, And I Love Her, etc.? Hmm.... Like most lists, this one is completely flawed. Sinatra and Tony Bennett aren't on it. Either are Louis Armstrong and Ella Fitzgerald (though Karen Carpenter is). Stupid... Maybe because they are more jazz, and jazz has not imbued itself into post-50s pop/rock like country, R&B, folk, soul, rap, funk, and others have. I wouldn't have put Pavarotti on the list either. Yes, it's true that what gets voted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame or placed in Best of polls is often dubious, but I think leaving out the ones you mentioned is not a problem. Maybe that's why the Beatles are not in the Country Hall of Fame, although I think they should be.
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Post by winstonoboogie on Nov 12, 2008 21:49:39 GMT -5
How ironic that John gets listed as one of the best rock singers ever. He always said he hated his voice and continually asked George Martin to "mask" it by double-tracking, or mixing it down. And Paul isn't even in the top ten?? With all his beautiful ballads like Yesterday, Eleanor Rigby, And I Love Her, etc.? Hmm.... Well, remember the source. Rolling Stone in the past has tended to put Paul down as a pretty boy who only writes silly love songs, and (with occasional exceptions) has been a major promoter of the John>Paul concept. Also, Jann Wenner (the founder/publisher of Rolling Stone) and John were good friends, so it's not surprising John was ranked so high. However, I agree John had one of the great rock voices, so I'm not disagreeing with his placement on the list. Actually, I'm surprised they rated Paul so high! (Some historical revisionism, perhaps?) Tom (aka W.O'B.)
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Post by rockstar2866 on Nov 12, 2008 23:45:45 GMT -5
John being up there doesn't really surprise me. Nor does Paul. Paul has some of the finest vocals in RnR history and certainly deserves that spot. Instantly recognizeable, perfectly smooth, incredible range, and one hell of a scream. John had a great rock and roll voice, but Paul seemed to have a total package of talent that makes him unique and worthy of his spot.
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Post by Panther on Nov 13, 2008 0:48:01 GMT -5
I think if they're going to do these kinds of lists, it's better to give it some time/genre limits to keep things a bit in perspective. It's not like people are sitting around arguing, "Dude! Who could sing 'Twist & Shout' better -- Lennon, or Tony Bennett?" They could make it, say, from the Rock'n'roll era (c. 1954) to the present, and then define it to exclude jazz/classical/opera singers.
Anyway, Lennon certainly deserves his place. A lot of great singers are insecure with their voices, and it seems he was (as someone pointed out), but he was AMAZING, especially in the early Beatles era. He had both range and power in huge degrees, and certainly he had some soul too. Yoko has often said, "John is a voice", and it's true. Like Charles Dickens' presence in his literature, Lennon's persona (which, on records, is his voice) permeates everything he did and in some ways transcends the actual songs.
That is a quality that Paul doesn't have, but on any objective scale Paul is a superior singer of the highest calibre.
Does anybody agree with me that Ringo's Beatle vocals were better than George's?
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2008 3:47:32 GMT -5
Does anybody agree with me that Ringo's Beatle vocals were better than George's? One of the funniest things i've read on here....... ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Post by superhans on Nov 13, 2008 3:49:37 GMT -5
I guess polls and lists sell magazines. We saw a great rash of them around the turn of the millenium. I mean, how can you compare Bob Dylan's voice with Aretha Franklin's -- it's a pointless exercise. Sheer, unalloyed listmania. This list is particularly bonkers - cross genre, cross time-period, completely subjective -- comparing apples with bananas. SuperHans
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Post by superhans on Nov 13, 2008 3:52:07 GMT -5
Does anybody agree with me that Ringo's Beatle vocals were better than George's? One of the funniest things i've read on here....... ;D ;D ;D ;D ...now if Panther had said Ringo's voice was better than Aretha Franklin!
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lowbasso
A Hard Day's Knight
Posts: 2,776
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Post by lowbasso on Nov 13, 2008 18:17:19 GMT -5
I agree with Steve; No Sinatra or Tony Bennett at all? Give me a break. Don't get me wrong, I think John Lennon had a unique sound and was a great R&R singer, it is just ironic he never liked his own voice. And Bob Dylan as a singer? PLEASE!! He wrote some great stuff, but I'd rather hear someone else's rendition of his stuff over him anyday. He reminded me of when Burt Bacharach tried to sing his own material And Karen Carpenter, who had one of the most hauntingly beautiful voices ever, listed down in the 80's?? As did Patsy Cline, probably the most beautiful country voice ever recorded. And she is pretty far down the list. Who created and voted for this stupid list? It is one big mess!
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Nov 14, 2008 7:09:36 GMT -5
It's hard to take a list seriously where Aretha Franklin is rated as #1. But having said that, Lennon deserves his place.
Also - was this list specifically *ROCK* singers? If so, it's no wonder Frank and Tony didn't make it. Otherwise they should be on it.
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Post by jimc on Nov 14, 2008 9:20:08 GMT -5
It's hard to take a list seriously where Aretha Franklin is rated as #1. But having said that, Lennon deserves his place. Also - was this list specifically *ROCK* singers? If so, it's no wonder Frank and Tony didn't make it. Otherwise they should be on it. Interesting comments, everyone. But why couldn't a list be taken seriously with Aretha Franklin at No. 1? That is far from a loopy, out-of-left-field choice. She is almost unanimously regarded as one of the greatest singers of her era or most any other. She wouldn't be my first choice, but I have no criticism for someone placing her first on his/her list. That said, I'll reach for Bob Dylan over someone like Tony Bennett any hour, any day. That has something to do with material, but Dylan gets right to my heart, right to my brain. More today than ever. Being technically proficient, whatever that standard is, doesn't interest me. It's the art. Karen Carpenter would be much higher on my list as well.
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Post by Steve Marinucci on Nov 14, 2008 9:39:46 GMT -5
It's hard to take a list seriously where Aretha Franklin is rated as #1. But having said that, Lennon deserves his place. Also - was this list specifically *ROCK* singers? If so, it's no wonder Frank and Tony didn't make it. Otherwise they should be on it. Actually, I don't have a problem with Aretha at No. 1. At her height, she was amazing. My problem is not having Frank, Tony and Ella on something labeled "The 100 Greatest Singers of All Time." As for Frank and Tony, Karen Carpenter's on the list and they're not? I don't see a big difference between them.
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Post by John S. Damm on Nov 14, 2008 10:48:27 GMT -5
I have very little problem with the Top 10 or the entire list really(except the predictable failure to include David Cassidy but I'll not go there here).
To me, the greatest treasures out there are coming across bootlegs of just John Lennon's single-tracked, natural vocal on songs where the released version has double-tracked or multi-tracked vocals or the vocal has been filtered or altered.
As pointed out, John was paranoid of his own singing voice but no singer moves me like John Lennon. When I come across one of those aforementioned outtakes or guide vocals from John, I am in seven-heaven.
I love this anecdote from RS found in the entry for Bob Dylan, another favorite of mine:
"When Sam Cooke played Dylan for the young Bobby Mack, Womack said he didn't understand it. Cooke explained that from now on, it's not going to be about how pretty the voice is. It's going to be about believing that the voice is telling the truth."
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Post by johnpaulharstar on Nov 14, 2008 12:48:37 GMT -5
I've never understood why people think Frank Sinatra is so great. To me he is just sort of talking while he "sings". I do think he was a decent actor. I wouldn't have him on a list of my top 1000 (though he would be near the top of my list of most over-rated). I love Joe Piscopo's parodies of Sinatra. I would put Lennon and McCartney in a tie for the top spot. I love Karen Carpenter and would have her very high in any list. Tony Bennett is good, but I wouldn't include him in a list such as this. Dylan's voice is awful. He wrote a lot of great stuff though.
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Post by Steve Marinucci on Nov 14, 2008 12:50:12 GMT -5
I've never understood why people think Frank Sinatra is so great. To me he is just sort of talking while he "sings". I do think he was a decent actor. I wouldn't have him on a list of my top 1000 (though he would be near the top of my list of most over-rated). I love Joe Piscopo's parodies of Sinatra. I would put Lennon and McCartney in a tie for the top spot. I love Karen Carpenter and would have her very high in any list. Tony Bennett is good, but I wouldn't include him in a list such as this. Dylan's voice is awful. He wrote a lot of great stuff though. While I don't agree with you on several points, my point is that definitive lists like this are useless. No one agrees with them.
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Post by vectisfabber on Nov 14, 2008 20:01:32 GMT -5
I agree with Steve.
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Post by winstonoboogie on Nov 14, 2008 21:53:56 GMT -5
I have very little problem with the Top 10 or the entire list really(except the predictable failure to include David Cassidy but I'll not go there here). ;D
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Post by Steve Marinucci on Nov 14, 2008 23:03:57 GMT -5
I have very little problem with the Top 10 or the entire list really(except the predictable failure to include David Cassidy but I'll not go there here). Gawd, how did I forget DC?
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lowbasso
A Hard Day's Knight
Posts: 2,776
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Post by lowbasso on Nov 15, 2008 17:24:25 GMT -5
"I've never understood why people think Frank Sinatra is so great."
Sinatra was at his best before 1950, when he was with Tommy Dorsey's Band. He also had some of the best arranger's for his recordings, like Quincy Jones.
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Post by winstonoboogie on Nov 15, 2008 20:10:18 GMT -5
"I've never understood why people think Frank Sinatra is so great." Sinatra was at his best before 1950, when he was with Tommy Dorsey's Band. He also had some of the best arranger's for his recordings, like Quincy Jones. ...and Nelson Riddle!
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JMG
Very Clean
Posts: 412
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Post by JMG on Nov 15, 2008 20:59:36 GMT -5
As long as we're talking Frank Sinatra, don't forget arrangers Billy May and Gordon Jenkins. Sinatra was truly one of the all-time greats, right up there with Elvis Presley and The Beatles.
For those of you not familiar with Frank Sinatra's music, I'd recommend the 2007 CD 'Frank Sinatra; Romance, Songs from the Heart'
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Post by scousette on Nov 15, 2008 21:36:44 GMT -5
I have absolutely no problem with Aretha Franklin being in the #1 spot. She has a phenomenal voice and makes every song she sings her own. She is one of the greatest singers of any era.
I certainly think that a list of the 100 Greatest Singers must include Sinatra, Tony Bennett, Billie Holiday, Ella Fitzgerald, and Linda Ronstadt. I'd remove Janis Joplin, Steve Perry, Don Henley, Axl Rose, Stevie Nicks, Ronnie Spector, and Karen Carpenter. "Competent" is not "Greatest."
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Post by sayne on Nov 15, 2008 22:01:36 GMT -5
I have absolutely no problem with Aretha Franklin being in the #1 spot. She has a phenomenal voice and makes every song she sings her own. She is one of the greatest singers of any era. Did you see her a few years ago at the Grammies when she substituted for Barbara Streisand and sang "Nessum Dorma" (Pavarotti's signature song)? She figuratively was asked at the last minute to sing and she was soooo on. Whenever I see that performance, I tear up.
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Post by jimc on Nov 16, 2008 0:17:34 GMT -5
I have absolutely no problem with Aretha Franklin being in the #1 spot. She has a phenomenal voice and makes every song she sings her own. She is one of the greatest singers of any era. Hearing you add that to what I said earlier reminded me of a point I wanted to make. Aretha Franklin is not my favorite vocalist. I don't own any of her albums, just a few singles, the most famous of which are on my iPod. However, I completely accept that she might be considered the greatest vocalist, at least of her era, if not more widely. Those two ideas -- personal taste and critical standing -- that they are separate and can be held simultaneously in a person's mind...that is a concept that often gets lost in these discussions.
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JMG
Very Clean
Posts: 412
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Post by JMG on Nov 16, 2008 3:18:59 GMT -5
Karen Carpenter would defiantly make my list of top vocalists of all-time any day of the week. We were out in Las Vegas back in the late seventies and saw the Carpenters at the Riviera. I slipped the maître d' a twenty so we got a table front row center. Fantastic performance. Frank Sinatra was in Vegas at the same time. No matter how hard we tried, we couldn't get tickets. Aretha Franklin...eh...not so much. Very powerful voice but her music never did float my boat.
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Post by sayne on Nov 16, 2008 8:53:53 GMT -5
. . . I completely accept that she might be considered the greatest vocalist, at least of her era, if not more widely . . . Back at the turn of the century when everyone was putting together lists of the 20th Century, Time Magazine, perhaps, came up with the a list with which MOST people could agree with MANY of the entries, or at least not garner rabidly violent arguments . It wasn't esoteric or elitist. It didn't pander. It seemed to be fairly broad, but it did have some surprises and it may have been slanted toward Western Culture (where's Pink Lady?). Their take was the people who, "for better or for worst", made the greatest impact in the 20th Century. Einstein was deemed the person of the century. Hitler and Marthin Luther King were on it. Mao and Che Guevara made it. Muhammad Ali and Pele and Dylan and the Beatles, too. To put it in the context of this thread, Aretha Franklin and Frank Sinatra were on it. Here's the link. It's really good reading. www.time.com/time/time100/index_2000_time100.html
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Post by jimc on Nov 16, 2008 12:02:08 GMT -5
Karen Carpenter would defiantly make my list of top vocalists of all-time any day of the week. We were out in Las Vegas back in the late seventies and saw the Carpenters at the Riviera. I slipped the maître d' a twenty so we got a table front row center. Fantastic performance. Frank Sinatra was in Vegas at the same time. No matter how hard we tried, we couldn't get tickets. Aretha Franklin...eh...not so much. Very powerful voice but her music never did float my boat. Karen Carpenter is one of my favorites too. She can make me cry. Her take on Ticket to Ride is wonderful, IMO. Overall, her story is one of the saddest in pop history.
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lowbasso
A Hard Day's Knight
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Post by lowbasso on Nov 16, 2008 12:09:02 GMT -5
And what about Barbra Streisand, Judy Garland, Ethel Merman, and John Raitt? (Bonnie Raitt's father). Those were some of the greatest Broadway vocalists of all time and deserve to be on that list.
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