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Post by superhans on Dec 2, 2008 9:02:42 GMT -5
Was 'How do you sleep?' a silly, childish mistake by Lennon? A simple 'yes' or 'no' will suffice if a longer answer doesn't present itself. Would be interested in your opinions, though. SuperHans.
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Post by OldFred on Dec 2, 2008 9:07:49 GMT -5
I'd say yes. Even John admitted later that it was a mistake to have recorded it. He and George, who played on the song, were feeling a lot of anger towards Paul during this period. John later re-recorded the song as 'Steel & Glass' and the venom was rightly aimed at Allan Klein.
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Dec 2, 2008 9:17:19 GMT -5
No, I don't think it was a mistake at the time -- Lennon felt resentment toward Paul, spurred on by what Lennon perceived as an attack from Paul. Years later in retrospect, maybe.
But I've always admired that John didn't beat around the bush and play subtle games, and that he just went for it. I know I'm in the minority, but it's how I honestly feel and I've just gone ahead and said it (much like John did).
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Post by John S. Damm on Dec 2, 2008 9:38:41 GMT -5
No. John's bitterness towards Paul, justified or not, led to a powerful song with good singing and playing. Whatever side one is on in the John-Paul war(or neither side), this is still a strong album track. John may have later regretted it but I'd rather have it in his catalog than those twee things like "One Day At A Time." If Lennon regretted it afterwords, he should have told Paul personally and the two men shake hands. But you can't take back good art. Had John not been murdered, who knows. Maybe there would have been the song "Now I Know How You Sleep" if the two men truly had patched things up. That would have been cool assuming it wasn't twee and sung in falsetto!
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Post by Beatle Bob on Dec 2, 2008 9:47:49 GMT -5
I always wished they would have kept it more private and not put their anger and emotions towards each other in song. They both knew how each other was feeling at that period and to publicly embarrass each other was a low-point. Thank god it didn't last that long and during John's "lost weekend" he and Paul could at least be on speaking terms and even participate in a jam session together. Regards, Beatle Bob
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Post by mikev on Dec 2, 2008 10:16:50 GMT -5
Ringo was supposedly at the original session, but refused to play on it. I read that somewhere-even though he really didn't play on any Imagine tracks.
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Post by John S. Damm on Dec 2, 2008 10:36:11 GMT -5
Ringo was supposedly at the original session, but refused to play on it. I read that somewhere-even though he really didn't play on any Imagine tracks. Now that would be a "million dollar" question to Ringo if any of us gets to meet him. I am not blindly uncritical of "How Do You Sleep?" John's dig, "Jump when your momma tells you anything" is absolutely hysterical coming from John Lennon of JohnandYoko fame.
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Post by revolver66 on Dec 2, 2008 10:54:54 GMT -5
I would agree that it is a really strong track. That being said I side with Beatle Bob that this kind of bickering should have stayed private and not invaded songs(at least not so obvious). I mean the Paul tracks that supposedly attack John could easily be denied but How Do You Sleep can't be. Great Art or Not..What a way to treat what was once your best friend. Unlike JoeK I think this shows Lennon to be very insecure and childish. John is great but this has always bugged me. I mean the Track would still be great if the words weren't so obvious or mean spirited towards Paul. This was the same guy who wrote Give Peace A Chance for crying out loud!!!
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Post by vectisfabber on Dec 2, 2008 11:06:52 GMT -5
In terms of musical output, no it wasn't a mistake - it's a powerful, passionate piece with nothing which quite equals it in Lennon's solo catalogue (even Sexy Sadie doesn't have quite the venom driving it which HDYS has).
In terms of personal relationships, yes it was a mistake - it was one of those occasions when someone says something they shouldn't, and then can't un-say it afterwards.
And which was the more important? In Lennon's absence, that might be one of those interesting questions to pose to McCartney if the opportunity ever presented itself.
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Post by mikev on Dec 2, 2008 11:53:56 GMT -5
I think historically McCartney and Lennon both shrugged it off. Paul had dinner with Lennon in NYC shortly after (Lennon admitted on Dick Cavet), was invited by Lennon to join him at MSG for the One to One concert(fact-see Lennon Anthology liner notes), partied with him and jammed with him in LA 73-74. All within a couple of years.
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Post by jimc on Dec 2, 2008 12:46:46 GMT -5
No, it's a solid track and how he felt at the time. I've always thought that some of it was put on though, almost cartoonish. As someone said, the irony of the "mama" line is rich.
As for Ringo, I remember reading years ago, maybe as far back as the late 1980s, that Ringo answered the question about playing on the track. He felt it was too much and didn't want to particpate in something so mean-spirited. I might have heard it on the Lost Lennon Tapes. Can't remember.
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Dec 2, 2008 13:42:50 GMT -5
I am not blindly uncritical of "How Do You Sleep?" John's dig, "Jump when your momma tells you anything" is absolutely hysterical coming from John Lennon of JohnandYoko fame. Except that I think John WANTED to go along with Yoko, and he liked that. It's not being henpecked or whipped when you willingly enjoy going along for the ride with the wife. Only when you're bossed against your will.
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Dec 2, 2008 13:46:26 GMT -5
In terms of personal relationships, yes it was a mistake - it was one of those occasions when someone says something they shouldn't, and then can't un-say it afterwards. But Paul never seemed that upset by it. He knew John.
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Post by John S. Damm on Dec 2, 2008 15:08:05 GMT -5
I am not blindly uncritical of "How Do You Sleep?" John's dig, "Jump when your momma tells you anything" is absolutely hysterical coming from John Lennon of JohnandYoko fame. Except that I think John WANTED to go along with Yoko, and he liked that. It's not being henpecked or whipped when you willingly enjoy going along for the ride with the wife. Only when you're bossed against your will. Man, I don't know, Joe, about that distinction. That seems to be splitting hairs. Maybe Paul dug being lead around too: look at the HMM years with seals, landmines and Chinese dogs! ;D I think that married men are just henpecked but none of us like it.
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Dec 2, 2008 15:32:55 GMT -5
Seemed that Paul DID jump when Momma Heather told him anything -- but he looked quite uncomfortable doing it, much of the time! Odd thing is, I never got the impression that Linda ever called the shots when she was married to Paul.
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Post by OldFred on Dec 2, 2008 17:12:25 GMT -5
Seemed that Paul DID jump when Momma Heather told him anything -- but he looked quite uncomfortable doing it, much of the time! Odd thing is, I never got the impression that Linda ever called the shots when she was married to Paul. Could the lyric possibly be a reference that Paul went with Linda's dad and brother as his lawyers rather than with Allen Klein? That could be what Lennon meant. And could it be after Klein revealed himself for the backstabber he was, Lennon rewrote the song as 'Steel & Glass' as an overdue apology to Paul who was proven right? And yes, it does sound strange coming from John in lieu of his relationship with Yoko. (Just an observation, nothing more.)
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cosmo
Very Clean
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Post by cosmo on Dec 2, 2008 21:17:45 GMT -5
I think that married men are just henpecked but none of us like it. Hmmm. JSD, did you read Patti's interview (linked on the news page). Looks like she's in the market for a new man - this could be your chance. ;D
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Post by winstonoboogie on Dec 2, 2008 21:29:30 GMT -5
I Paul was invited by Lennon to join him at MSG for the One to One concert(fact-see Lennon Anthology liner notes. Whoa! I never heard about that! How cool would that have been! But I agree with OldFred re: HDYS, for what it's worth.
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Post by OldFred on Dec 2, 2008 22:38:02 GMT -5
I Paul was invited by Lennon to join him at MSG for the One to One concert(fact-see Lennon Anthology liner notes. Whoa! I never heard about that! How cool would that have been! But I agree with OldFred re: HDYS, for what it's worth. Thanks Winston. Of the two songs, I prefer listening to 'Steel & Glass' over 'How Do You Sleep'. 'HDYS' for me is too uncomfortable to listen to, way too unfairly nasty and vicious for my taste, like eaves dropping on a squabble between two long-time lovers. At least the venom in 'Steel & Glass' is more properly and correctly aimed at the right party.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2008 3:24:52 GMT -5
I quite like How Do You Sleep and i feel fine about John writing and recording this so obvious dig at Macca.......
It's one of John's better songs and he expresses how he felt at that time about his former bandmate....
It wasn't the most amicable break-up so you have to expect a bit of resentment,a certain amount of "Fark You".....
It's feasible George played on it because he had years of pent up "Fark You Paul" emotion and right at that moment it was probably his most enjoyable musical experience,he probably didn't charge John a fee for playing on his record......
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Post by ursamajor on Dec 3, 2008 5:59:58 GMT -5
Yeah it probably cost John a couple of Hare Krshna's to get George on it I like HDYS very much and I don't really think about Paul when I hear it.. As to whether John should have done it, I'm sure I''ve read somewhere that some of the lines although insulting to Paul were done as a joke .. however it's justified, John did go too far but if that's how he felt then you can't blame him as it was his decision ultimately to put it out there
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Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2008 7:40:25 GMT -5
Here is John's answer in his 1980 playboy interview about HDYS..
PLAYBOY: "Just a quick aside, but while we're on the subject of lyrics and your resentment of Paul, what made you write 'How Do You Sleep?,' which contains lyrics such as 'Those freaks was right when they said you was dead' and 'The only thing you done was Yesterday/And since you've gone, you're just Another Day'?"
LENNON: (smiles) "You know, I wasn't really feeling that vicious at the time. But I was using my resentment toward Paul to create a song, let's put it that way. He saw that it pointedly refers to him, and people kept hounding him about it. But, you know, there were a few digs on his album before mine. He's so obscure other people didn't notice them, but I heard them. I thought, Well, I'm not obscure, I just get right down to the nitty-gritty. So he'd done it his way and I did it mine. But as to the line you quoted, yeah, I think Paul died creatively, in a way."
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Post by John S. Damm on Dec 3, 2008 8:29:53 GMT -5
Here is John's answer in his 1980 playboy interview about HDYS.. PLAYBOY: "Just a quick aside, but while we're on the subject of lyrics and your resentment of Paul, what made you write 'How Do You Sleep?,' which contains lyrics such as 'Those freaks was right when they said you was dead' and 'The only thing you done was Yesterday/And since you've gone, you're just Another Day'?" LENNON: (smiles) "You know, I wasn't really feeling that vicious at the time. But I was using my resentment toward Paul to create a song, let's put it that way. He saw that it pointedly refers to him, and people kept hounding him about it. But, you know, there were a few digs on his album before mine. He's so obscure other people didn't notice them, but I heard them. I thought, Well, I'm not obscure, I just get right down to the nitty-gritty. So he'd done it his way and I did it mine. But as to the line you quoted, yeah, I think Paul died creatively, in a way." I guess at the end, John didn't regret HDYS! In 1980 he was kind of bitchy with Paul again, quite unlike 1974/1975 when he was publicly very civil towards Macca. I remember right before John was murdered, Paul was on an American morning show and he was reminded by the host of John's recent quote that "The Long And Winding Road" and "Let It Be" were Paul's last gasps. Paul uncomfortably laughed it off. I was so excited in 1980 to have John back releasing music but I was decidedly unexcited about his renewed digs at Paul. I sure wasn't thinking reunion but just that they act like grown men towards each other.
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Post by mikev on Dec 3, 2008 11:37:42 GMT -5
John was mad that Paul showed up like a kid at his door, and some other legal crap-but I think it was momentary. Paul insists that all was cool at the end, but not with John and George (I Me Mine).
Ringo was the only one to show up at the Dakota-and it was kind of a stupid thing for him to do (for his own safety).
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Post by John S. Damm on Dec 3, 2008 13:16:22 GMT -5
John was mad that Paul showed up like a kid at his door, and some other legal crap-but I think it was momentary. Paul insists that all was cool at the end, but not with John and George (I Me Mine). Ringo was the only one to show up at the Dakota-and it was kind of a stupid thing for him to do (for his own safety). True and I think that John was annoyed at his ex-bandmates' public speculations on what John was doing in the househusband years: lyrics to "Watching The Wheels;" Paul: "John has never had the chance just to be John." John replies: "What the hell does that mean?" from Playboy or Newsweek; the NY Times article of "three angels looking over our shoulders;" etc. I know that Paul insists all was cool with him and John at the end but he hadn't physically seen John for what, two years prior to 12/08/80 and their communication was limited to short telephone calls mostly of small talk. Business talk would quickly freeze the conversation To me, being cool with my long time friends is a lot more personal than that. I think it is true that the two men were at least talking by phone on an infrequent basis. That is apparently more than George and John were doing. To say though that John and Paul's relationship was any closer than that by 1980 might be stretching it. "Here Today" is probably right on the mark, John would claim that they "were worlds apart"; more so than Paul saying that he and John were "cool" at the end unless Paul means "cool" as in distant which I don't think he is! ;D
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Post by Panther on Dec 3, 2008 16:58:05 GMT -5
It seems that when two men fall apart, it always works out that one of them spews venom and gets everything off his chest publicly, and the other maintains his composure and integrity but takes it on the chin and burns up inside.
Anyway, I agree with the emerging consensus that it's a great track musically, but a woefully chosen set of lyrics. Had he directed it at someone who really deserved a roasting, it would have been beyond reproach.
I also think the fact that 'Steel & Glass' so closely resembles 'How Do You Sleep' (it's almost a re-write, as Old Fred suggests) was intentional on John's part to convey the message that he had shifted blame for the Beatles' mess to Allen Klein (and maybe others) and away from Paul. I mean, those two tracks are too similar for that not to be intentional!
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Dec 3, 2008 17:50:40 GMT -5
Lennon didn't "only" batter Paul. For the record, it should be known that there's that later 1980 in-studio conversation with John (I forgot who camcorded it - was it Bob Gruen?) where John calls Paul his "brother", and also expresses empathy for Paul that the record studio turned the "Coming Up' single around on McCartney and released the "live" version instead of the "studio" one. So John didn't always slam Paul around at the end. In fact, in the very last RKO interview recorded the day John died, he said something like: "The only people I worked with for more than a one night stand were Paul McCartney and Yoko Ono. I think that's a pretty damn good choice." (Most will disagree about Ono, but it's the McCartney reference which was very cool and respectful).
John didn't live long enough to COMPLETELY make peace. I think it would have come.
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Post by johnpaulharstar on Dec 4, 2008 15:27:12 GMT -5
Was 'How do you sleep?' a silly, childish mistake by Lennon? A simple 'yes' or 'no' will suffice if a longer answer doesn't present itself. Would be interested in your opinions, though. SuperHans. YES It is extremely childish and immature and is among my least favorite songs.
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Post by superhans on Dec 8, 2008 5:31:52 GMT -5
Was 'How do you sleep?' a silly, childish mistake by Lennon? A simple 'yes' or 'no' will suffice if a longer answer doesn't present itself. Would be interested in your opinions, though. SuperHans. To answer my own question - I've never liked the song. I read about 'How do you sleep' before I actually heard it - it was referenced in Roy Carr and Tony Tyler's 'The Beatles - an illustrated record', which I read when I was twelve. The song was obviously controversial - I think Carr and Tyler referred to it as 'vitriolic' - so I was keen to hear it. When I eventually heard the song for the first time I was really disappointed. Musically the song sounds sluggish and unispired - it sort of drags its feet and never really comes to life - and the lyrics are more clumsy and banal than anything. I think How do you sleep's infamy and cheap-shot controversy far exceeds its actual qualities as a song.
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Post by johnpaulharstar on Dec 8, 2008 11:38:04 GMT -5
[/quote] To answer my own question - I've never liked the song. I read about 'How do you sleep' before I actually heard it - it was referenced in Roy Carr and Tony Tyler's 'The Beatles - an illustrated record', which I read when I was twelve. The song was obviously controversial - I think Carr and Tyler referred to it as 'vitriolic' - so I was keen to hear it. When I eventually heard the song for the first time I was really disappointed. Musically the song sounds sluggish and unispired - it sort of drags its feet and never really comes to life - and the lyrics are more clumsy and banal than anything. I think How do you sleep's infamy and cheap-shot controversy far exceeds its actual qualities as a song. I agree with everything you say. I don't even think John sings it that well. George plays a pretty good guitar-that's about the only redeeming features this song has. By the way, I listened to "Steel And Glass" this weekend. Much better song. Fantastic vocal and better musically. Seemed more sincere. [/quote]
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