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Post by debjorgo on Jul 22, 2012 21:25:20 GMT -5
Sorry, but after many years of not listening to it, I gave it another try on John's 70th birthday. The overwhelming sadness/anger/disappointment I felt upon listening to it for the first time in many years is not something I wish to experience again. Maybe there are those out there who would say since it gives me such strong feelings then it must be a great song. I would disagree. Maybe it is a "powerful" work of "art", but it terms of pure musical/lyrical/song qualities I just hate it and have no desirre to put myself through the misery of listening to it again. And BTW I don't consider the "Yesterday/Another Day" rhyme clever at all. And it certainly wasn't true! I don't like it when people are petty, childish and vindictive and "How Do You Sleep" is all of those things to me. Nobody else has to feel that way, but that's the way I feel. Concluding on a positive note I have yet to see or hear of anyone who considers IMAGINE a weak album. Everyone seems to generally like it. Gee, I don't think it bothered Paul that much.
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Post by coachbk on Jul 22, 2012 21:45:44 GMT -5
Sorry, but after many years of not listening to it, I gave it another try on John's 70th birthday. The overwhelming sadness/anger/disappointment I felt upon listening to it for the first time in many years is not something I wish to experience again. Maybe there are those out there who would say since it gives me such strong feelings then it must be a great song. I would disagree. Maybe it is a "powerful" work of "art", but it terms of pure musical/lyrical/song qualities I just hate it and have no desirre to put myself through the misery of listening to it again. And BTW I don't consider the "Yesterday/Another Day" rhyme clever at all. And it certainly wasn't true! I don't like it when people are petty, childish and vindictive and "How Do You Sleep" is all of those things to me. Nobody else has to feel that way, but that's the way I feel. Concluding on a positive note I have yet to see or hear of anyone who considers IMAGINE a weak album. Everyone seems to generally like it. Gee, I don't think it bothered Paul that much. LOL-that's a great comment Debjorgo. I got a good chuckle from that one (and I'm being sincere, not sarcastic!!!) I'm fine with having it bother me more than it bothered Paul. I'd prefer it that way truthfully.
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Post by nicole21290 on Jul 23, 2012 0:32:54 GMT -5
WARNING: This post refers to HDYS and for some people probably is going to be too sympathetic to Paul and leading towards a versus situation and thus you won't want to read. Just a heads up! Also, it might be considered slightly off-topic and too long to read. Tangentially, I think it's important though...I hope HDYS didn't bother Paul too much but I reckon it probably did. Until Paul ensconced himself in the relationship with Linda, his main sources of worth and affirmation seem to have come from his musical ability and from John. One of the main things Paul emphasises in his depression after the break-up of The Beatles is that he felt useless - no one needed or wanted him and he was pretty much having a nervous breakdown - "I was on the scrap heap.... It was just the feeling, the terrible disappointment of not being of any use to anyone anymore. It was a barrelling, empty feeling that just rolled across my soul...." Anyway, he's kind of brushed off HDYS before but never totally or particularly convincingly, I feel. I'm glad he doesn't whine about it but nevertheless, I definitely think it would have bothered him. As John said though, what really matters is that they got past it and made up. Still... Many times both John and Paul have compared the break-up to a divorce and their relationship to a marriage and that closeness of spirit certainly seems to have been there and so we know they paid attention to what the other said and did. I consider this era the mudslinging bitterness that can occur at the end of a marriage. Q: "When the rift started, it was more like a divorce, like a love/hate relationship, coming apart. Is that true?" PAUL: "Yes. It sounds weird when you use that analogy because then it takes on another meaning. But yes, it's true. What I mean is that there was that kind of deep feeling and deep heat."Because I know everyone loves when I do this, some quotes that point to my belief that what John said and sang in HDYS would have bothered Paul quite a lot even if he understood, a little at least, why John did it. One of my feelings even when he used to lay into me was that he really didn't mean it. I could always see why he was doing it. There was this spectre of me, which I understand because he had to clear the decks just like I did. When we started to bitch at each other I had quite a period of self doubt. I'd be thinking, 'uh oh, John was the great one, I was just stringing along.' But then I think to myself: 'Wait a minute, he wasn't a mug. He wouldn't work with me all that time if it didn't mean something to him.' - the way Paul convinces himself he was worth something is by reassuring himself that JOHN wouldn't have worked with him a lot if he hadn't been It was a love song about my relationship with him. I was trying to exorcise the demons in my own head, because it's tough when you have somebody like John slagging you off in public. - exorcise demons?! I'm sorry but that's not the type of 'oh, those insults were water off a duck's back' thing. When John did 'How Do You Sleep?' I didn't want to get into a slinging match. Part of it was cowardice. John was a great wit, and I didn't want to go fencing with the rapier champion of East Cheam-- But it meant that I had to take shit--It meant that I had to take lines like 'All you ever did was Yesterday.' I always find myself wanting to excuse John's behaviour, just because I loved him. It's like a child, sure he was a naughty child, but don't you call my child naughty. Even if it's me he's shitting on, don't you call him naughty. That's how I felt about this and still do. I don't have a grudge whatsoever against John. I think he knew exactly what he was doing, and, because we had been so intimate, he knew what would hurt me and used it to great effect. I thought, 'Keep your head down and time will tell,' and it did because in the 'Imagine' film (Imagine John Lennon, documentary), he says it was really all about himself. - Paul's lengthiest comment on HDYS which I find interesting. He recognises the untruths in the song but also recognises that he feels a strong desire to defend and excuse John even if he's being insulted by him. Again, he emphasises that he thinks he knows WHY John did it. The points John made are points that HURT. And so I kind of realised that, you know, that even though we had been bitching in public and stuff, we still had an affection for each other. And I was pleased to know that. And, I know Yoko later rang me up and said 'Look, you know he did love you.' And so, you know, I say you grab anything you can get.- Paul personally seems to want any crumb of love and affirmation from John he can get. He likes to talk about how John loved him and had him as a partner as if that makes HIM a better, more admirable person. I idolized John. He was the big guy in the chip shop. I was the little guy. As I matured and grew up, I started sharing in things with him. I got up to his level. I wrote songs as he did and sometimes they were as good as his. We grew to be equals.- Again, with the idolising. This, along with feeling 'blessed' is repeated often by Paul. Here Paul even says 'sometimes' his own songs were as good as John's and that they became equals. Paul's aim: to be AS GOOD as John. To have John SHARE things with him. John was fantastic, a genius. I was privileged to work with him and the fact that we worked together for so long shows how much he appreciated working with me. He could have swapped me at any given point. - Again, gaining affirmation from the thought that he must have been good because John could have and maybe would have swapped him otherwise. McCartney’s comments suggest that even at the height of his creative fulfilment he could still be deflated and undermined by Lennon. He seemed to require public affection more than his older partner, and even that reward could feel empty if it wasn’t supported by Lennon’s approval. Nobody else could ever have made him admit, ‘I have always quite enjoyed being second… you’re still up with number one. Number one still needs you as his companion.’ Everywhere else in his life, McCartney demanded first position… But subservience to Lennon gave him a sense of worthiness he that couldn’t find elsewhere. (Peter Doggett) - THIS. All of it. Especially Paul's quote. I understood what happened when he met Yoko. He had to clear the decks of his old emotions. He went through all his old affairs, confessed them all. Me and Linda did that when we first met. You prove how much you love someone by confessing all that old stuff. John's method was to slag me off. - Again, with the clearing of the decks. John and Paul were replacing each other with these women, new relationships. Yoko once said John told her that J had said he'd been riding on a boat named Paul and now he was on a boat named Yoko. In terms of intimacy (of souls), the tides had turned and, I think for the first time, the boys relationship with their significant other became their primary source of comfort, security and love whereas they had been that for each other beforehand. Improbable though it may seem, Paul McCartney appears to have suffered periodically from low self-esteem. Linda McCartney once said, "I don't dwell on what people say about me. I dwell on what people say about Paul, for some reason. Maybe it's because he can't handle it."- we all know Paul is, and has been, sensitive to the media perception of him and whether he 'is liked' or not. This feeling is amplified when the person judging you is the person you grew up with, became famous with, thought knew you better than anyone else in the world. I know John and I know that most of it [the slagging off] was just something to tell the newspapers. He was in that mood then and he wanted all that to be said. I think now, whilst he probably doesn't regret it, he didn't mean every single syllable of it. I mean, he came out with all stuff like I'm like Engelbert Humperdinck. I know he doesn't really think that. In the press, they really wanted me to come out and slam John back and I used to get pissed off at the guys coming up to me and saying, "This is the latest thing John said and what's your answer?" You know, really limp things, I'd answer. But I believe keep cool and that sort of thing, and it passes over. I don't believe if someone kind of punches you over you have to go kind of thumping him back to prove you're a man and that kind of thing. I think, actually, you do win that way in the end.What was your reaction when you read that stuff at the time? Oh, I hated it. You can imagine, I sat down and pored over every little paragraph, every little sentence. "Does he really think that of me?" l thought. And at the time I thought, "It's me. I am. That's just what I'm like. He's captured me so well; I'm a turd, you know." I sat down and really thought, I'm just nothing. But then, people who dug me like Linda said "Now you know that's not true, you're joking. He's got a grudge, man; the guy's trying to polish you off." Gradually I started to think, great, that's not true. I'm not really like Engelbert; I don't just write ballads. And that kept me hanging on; but at the time, I tell you, it hurt me. Whew. Deep. - This doesn't speak directly of HDYS but I group both the song and the RS comments in together regarding how Paul felt when insulted by John. Here, insults made him rethink his entire self-image until his wife stepped in to try and reassure him. But he admits that it hurt. Deep. And finally, regarding John's original lyric about Yesterday being nicked, Paul probably would've been even more hurt then, considering one of the primary reasons he rates it highly... "I was so proud of it. I felt it was an original tune, it didn't copy off anything, and it was a big tune, it was all there and nothing repeated."
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Jul 23, 2012 5:48:07 GMT -5
When John did 'How Do You Sleep?' I didn't want to get into a slinging match. Part of it was cowardice. John was a great wit, and I didn't want to go fencing with the rapier champion of East Cheam-- But it meant that I had to take shit--It meant that I had to take lines like 'All you ever did was Yesterday.' That's what you get, Paulie Boy, for writing lines like "Too Many people preaching practices" and "you took your lucky break and broke it in two".Hey, Paul -- give me a break. If you wanna play, sometimes you tangle with the wrong guy.
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Jul 23, 2012 5:56:21 GMT -5
With regard to some of the lyrics in HOW DO YOU SLEEP, I have always felt that John's assessment of Paul's abilities proved to be incorrect as time went on, but that at the time he wrote the song, they were not so far off. Paul McCartney became "The Most Successful Songwriter" in GUINESS in 1979 and he went on to "show the world what you can do", and that "a pretty face lasted more than just a year or two"... however --- at the time of HDYS in 1971, Paul didn't really do much more than "just Another Day". If we place John's words in the context of how Paul began in his solo career, he was kind of lost. Paul's breakout material in 70-71 didn't exactly inspire a lot of confidence at the time. It wasn't until later that Lennon's predictions and evaluations proved false and premature.
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Post by vectisfabber on Jul 23, 2012 7:04:58 GMT -5
About Imagine: Definitely my favourite Lennon solo album, primarily because a) it is accessible and b) the songs are, for the most part, excellent (I find Mind Games and Walls and Bridges mostly unmemorable). Imagine -- A worthy sentiment, has suffered from over-exposure and, like John's other slogan/anthems, is more than a touch naive. Crippled Inside -- John often turned out an enjoyable piece of work when there was a juxtaposition between the emotional tone of music and lyric: I'm a loser, Baby's in Black, and now Crippled Inside. Jealous Guy -- Very good and far superior to Bryan Ferry's nasal revisitation. It's So Hard -- This doesn't work, for me. It's OK, but no better. I Don't Want to be a Soldier -- Horrible, musically and yrically and, worse, horrible and overlong. Gimme Some Truth -- venomous and inexorable with a GREAT vocal performance. Oh My Love -- Heartbreakingly beautiful: vulnerable, tender, and enhanced enormously by Nicky Hopkins' gorgeous piano runs and trills. How Do You Sleep? -- For me, the childish, petty spitefulness of the lyric robs this of all potential enjoyability. How? -- This would be the best song on the album by a mile if it wasnt for at least two others which are even better. Oh Yoko! -- This is almost a Paul song as far as the perkiness and melodicism is concerned. Lovable.
How Do You Sleep - what Nicole said. I didn't understand then, and I don't understand now, how Paul saying a) there were no current plans for the Beatles to record together, and b) J&Y's antics didn't give him any pleasure amounted to grounds for John to whack him in the nuts with a cricket bat, metaphorically speaking.
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Post by Panther on Jul 23, 2012 9:39:21 GMT -5
Hey, Paul -- give me a break. If you wanna play, sometimes you tangle with the wrong guy. No, my dad is bigger than your dad! Give me a break. There's no way in hell those very abstract lines could be interpreted as an attack on someone, unless the someone was very paranoid and over-sensitive at the time. Hardly merits a savage attack. (Which doesn't take anything away from 'How Do You Sleep?', which is a brilliant song whether it's about Paul or about Ebenezer Scrooge).
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Post by Panther on Jul 23, 2012 9:40:27 GMT -5
Paul's breakout material in 70-71 didn't exactly inspire a lot of confidence at the time. Maybe not in Rolling Stone magazine. For me, his first three albums are the best he's ever made! (and yes, I'm serious)
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Post by nicole21290 on Jul 23, 2012 9:59:40 GMT -5
Paul's breakout material in 70-71 didn't exactly inspire a lot of confidence at the time. Maybe not in Rolling Stone magazine. For me, his first three albums are the best he's ever made! (and yes, I'm serious) Exactly. Which is why the at the time point is sort of valid. Those first few albums - particularly McCartney and most definitely RAM - have been rehabilitated beyond belief over the past decade or so by media, fans and music critics. HDYS simply propped up and supported the primary view of Paul that many have built up after his first few releases. However, whilst P's material may not have inspired confidence at the time that doesn't make John's criticisms and insults in HDYS any more valid, I don't think. First, he basically says Paul is a total pushover when it comes to the wife and suck ups who surround him (not as bad as when he implies he couldn't figure out why they got together as she wasn't very attractive...), he says Paul's music is muzak, he says he's just a pretty face and that he's only produced one song of any merit and that was seven years ago. Paul has glibly remarked that he was sleeping just fine,thank you very much, but John suggesting Paul shouldn't be able to sleep well at night because he was a pushover of a pretty boy who'd only ever written one good song and probably wouldn't do so again is going a bit far... (though he was kind enough to amend that in 1980, admitting that Long and Winding Road, not Yesterday, was Paul's "last gasp") especially considering we later learn that at one point Paul was properly laying awake at night shaking, having nightmares of Klein trying to kill him, and not having the energy or desire to stop himself from suffocating by lifting his head up from his pillow...
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Post by acebackwords on Jul 23, 2012 14:21:58 GMT -5
"How Do You Sleep" is one of the greatest songs of all-time. Blistering guitar, snarling vocals, clever lyrics . . . whether you like it or not, its a totally unique song, sentiments and emotions rarely expressed in pop music.
The rest of the album is mediocre to me (aside from "Crippled Inside" which would have been a classic Beatles song had Lennon not run out of ideas and inspiration about half way through). A forecast of the soporific "Mind Games" kinda' of music that was to follow.
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Post by John S. Damm on Jul 23, 2012 14:49:27 GMT -5
Paul's breakout material in 70-71 didn't exactly inspire a lot of confidence at the time. Maybe not in Rolling Stone magazine. For me, his first three albums are the best he's ever made! (and yes, I'm serious) Ah, you are 3/4's the way to accepting The JSD Postulate! In the film of John recording this song, John seems even angrier, throwing the c-word out towards the song's recipient. The Howard Sounes' book Fab reminded me of a horrible incident that could make a guy like John mad enough to write HDYS. Here is an excerpt from a different source though as linked to below which summarizes the event: "Francie Schwartz has memories of Yoko that are kinder than most other people's (and memories of Paul that are less fond). But her account of the Big Rupture between Paul and John is probably quite accurate in its essentials. It was told many times by John himself. 'It was in August, and I was living with Paul on Cavendish Avenue. John and Yoko were staying there too, in the living room. Paul never opened his fan mail, I opened the fan mail for him, but he didn't give a shit about the mail. John and Yoko definitely gave a shit about their mail, and everything addressed to John and/or Yoko came to the house. Paul was upstairs, and there was a note on the mantle, addressed to John and Yoko, typewritten. It was not postmarked so it was suspicious immediately. The two of them opened it up and showed it to me. It said, 'You and your Jap tart think you're hot shit.' We were appalled, I mean, what can you say? It was unsigned, just the one sentence, typed. Then Paul bopped into the living room. He was wearing suit trousers and suspenders, barefoot with no shirt, his hands in his pockets. 'Oh, I just did that for a lark,' he said. As far as I'm concerned, that was the moment when John looked at Paul as if to say, 'Do I know you?' It was over, it was completely and totally over at that moment. They may have been able to work together, but it was never the same.'" www.wingspan.ru/bookseng/linda/07.htmlPaul like to write creepy, anonymous postcards to people(who instantly knew it was from Paul) and this was clearly among the worst. Per the Barry Miles book The Beatles Diary: The Beatles Years, on January 13, 1969, Derek Taylor got an unsigned postcard from Paul saying "Up yer" because Taylor was desperately trying to mend the rifts between the band(this was right after George Harrison walked out). There was bound to be some anger in John, much justified, which could explain his outburst on "How Do You Sleep?"
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Post by acebackwords on Jul 23, 2012 15:24:28 GMT -5
Paul like to write creepy, anonymous postcards to people(who instantly knew it was from Paul) and this was clearly among the worst. I think Paul gets a bad rap here. Maybe its because he cashed in with that nice, bland, inoffensive, cutesey act of his that we're somewhat shocked and taken aback by the hypocricy when Paul occassionally vents his spleen (and usually barely able to muster as much vitriol as a three-toed sloth, as compared to Lennon's famous "rapier wit"). You gotta' keep in mind, Lennon had one of the most vicious mouths in all of rockdom. He would regularly -- I said REGULARLY -- slice people to ribbons with his sharp tongue. ("John could hurt people, I've seen him do it many times." - Harry Nillson). And believe me, the other three Beatles weren't spared Lennon's wrath (George on HDYS: "It was nice to be on that end of it as opposed to the recieving end).
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Jul 23, 2012 17:13:23 GMT -5
Maybe not in Rolling Stone magazine. For me, his first three albums are the best he's ever made! (and yes, I'm serious) Exactly. Which is why the at the time point is sort of valid. Those first few albums - particularly McCartney and most definitely RAM - have been rehabilitated beyond belief over the past decade or so by media, fans and music critics. I enjoy Paul's first three LPs myself now... and RAM in particular may be my #1 favorite of them all. Time has indeed been much kinder to Paul's early work --- however, it was not only ROLLING STONE magazine that thought Paul was lost at the actual time these albums were released. So, we do have to take the time they were issued into account here. I'm pretty sure Panther and Nicole are younger than the "Firsties" who were stunned by Paul's debut solo recordings back in the day.
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Jul 23, 2012 17:18:45 GMT -5
Hey, Paul -- give me a break. If you wanna play, sometimes you tangle with the wrong guy. No, my dad is bigger than your dad! Give me a break. There's no way in hell those very abstract lines could be interpreted as an attack on someone, unless the someone was very paranoid and over-sensitive at the time. Are you talking about TOO MANY PEOPLE? Paul did admit that song was a dig at John. Then we have the tasteless photo on the cover of a beetle fuc$ing another beetle. Hardly "paranoia" on John's part there. Now, after all of that, is it any wonder why John would be truly paranoid about OTHER songs on the album, too? Lennon may have mistakenly read OTHER lyrics as being a dig at him as well when they were not, but after a while, how do you know what's what? It doesn't matter what you, Nicole, or even I think --- it was up to John Lennon. And John felt it merited HDYS.
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Jul 23, 2012 17:23:10 GMT -5
How Do You Sleep - what Nicole said. I didn't understand then, and I don't understand now, how Paul saying a) there were no current plans for the Beatles to record together, and b) J&Y's antics didn't give him any pleasure amounted to grounds for John to whack him in the nuts with a cricket bat, metaphorically speaking. How in the world could you leave out what REALLY drove John to do HDYS ... Paul's attacks at John on the RAM ALBUM? (!)... The song HDYS was a reply to the digs Paul made at John on the RAM album, for cryin' out loud. (and the nasty beetles screwing pic). That's a pretty big thing for you to casually leave out.
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Post by debjorgo on Jul 23, 2012 18:04:54 GMT -5
Exactly. Which is why the at the time point is sort of valid. Those first few albums - particularly McCartney and most definitely RAM - have been rehabilitated beyond belief over the past decade or so by media, fans and music critics. I enjoy Paul's first three LPs myself now... and RAM in particular may be my #1 favorite of them all. Time has indeed been much kinder to Paul's early work --- however, it was not only ROLLING STONE magazine that thought Paul was lost at the actual time these albums were released. So, we do have to take the time they were issued into account here. I'm pretty sure Panther and Nicole are younger than the "Firsties" who were stunned by Paul's debut solo recordings back in the day. I'm a firstie. I loved McCartney, RAM and Wings Wild Life then and I love them now. I never heard of anyone saying that they were anything but great albums (WWL got ragged on a little). The radio played all of McCartney and a lot of RAM. Bip Bop was used on a local zoo commercial. The radio ignored POB. For years, I didn't know it existed. Imagine was big and my sister bought it. My god, I Don't Want to be a Soldier was worse than Long Haired Lady. You'd have to be paranoid to think two beetles having sex was an attack on John. I know there is rape in nature but without given more facts I would assume the coupling was consensual. The Beatles had split to become husbands. The girls are breaking up this old gang of mine or whatever that old quote was. John did his John and Yoko. Paul was doing his Paul and Linda. I'd say that's what the beetles represented. There was always the back and forths between John and Paul. John wrote In My Life, Paul did Yesterday. One song has a guitar riff, here's another. The one thing Paul never did really answer from John was I Am the Walrus. The lyrics had a whole lot of imagery and color, but taken together, you can never draw any kind of conclusion. What Paul does is write songs that seem to have no real meaning but he throws in a line here and there that mean something. If it gets picked up on, he always has deniability.
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Post by Panther on Jul 23, 2012 18:12:12 GMT -5
Are you talking about TOO MANY PEOPLE? Paul did admit that song was a dig at John. Who cares what he said 30 years later (and all he said was that there were one or two lines subtly digging)? What matters is what people heard, not what Paul meant. The song itself is too subtle to be taken as a personal, nasty attack, to be shared with millions. Do you actually think anyone at home listened to the lyrics and said, "I can't believe he said that about Lennon!"? Then we have the tasteless photo on the cover of a beetle fuc$ing another beetle. Hardly "paranoia" on John's part there. Right, I forgot about that. But how do you know it wasn't Paul screwing Ringo? Or maybe an affectionate reminder of John and Paul's closer days back in Hamburg...?
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Post by vectisfabber on Jul 23, 2012 18:43:34 GMT -5
How Do You Sleep - what Nicole said. I didn't understand then, and I don't understand now, how Paul saying a) there were no current plans for the Beatles to record together, and b) J&Y's antics didn't give him any pleasure amounted to grounds for John to whack him in the nuts with a cricket bat, metaphorically speaking. How in the world could you leave out what REALLY drove John to do HDYS ... Paul's attacks at John on the RAM ALBUM? (!)... The song HDYS was a reply to the digs Paul made at John on the RAM album, for cryin' out loud. (and the nasty beetles screwing pic). That's a pretty big thing for you to casually leave out. Yes, you're right - I overlooked Ram: apologies. It does make a difference.
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Post by coachbk on Jul 23, 2012 21:17:10 GMT -5
"How Do You Sleep" is one of the greatest songs of all-time. Blistering guitar, snarling vocals, clever lyrics . . . whether you like it or not, its a totally unique song, sentiments and emotions rarely expressed in pop music. The rest of the album is mediocre to me (aside from "Crippled Inside" which would have been a classic Beatles song had Lennon not run out of ideas and inspiration about half way through). A forecast of the soporific "Mind Games" kinda' of music that was to follow. This may take the prize for the quote I most disagree with ever posted on this board. Frankly part of what makes me so sad the few times I've listened to :How Do You Sleep?" is seeing such a great songwriter-the guy who wrote "In My Life", "Strawberry Fields Forever", "Across The Universe", etc. reduced to writing such childish drivel barely worthy of a middle school student trying to "get back" at a classmate. And the rest of the album mediocre? Then John's solo career must have really been bad since he rarely equaled IMAGINE until the time of STARTING OVER.
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Jul 24, 2012 5:44:59 GMT -5
I'm a firstie. I loved McCartney, RAM and Wings Wild Life then and I love them now. I never heard of anyone saying that they were anything but great albums (WWL got ragged on a little). And I am positive you were not the only 'Firstie' who enjoyed those records when they were first released. But I'm also pretty sure you'd be in the minority back at that time. SOLDIER is obviously not a commercial ditty or anything; it's a more avante garde sound. I don't love the song myself, but I get it ... and I like it well enough as the closer for Side One. It sounds intense and works with the sentiment John's expressing of not wanting to be a soldier, not wanting to die, etc. And you'd have to be naive not to realize that it's no mere coincidence that a "beetles" photo just happened to be put on the LP cover for no reason. But anyway -- this whole "paranoia" charge is exactly the kind of excuse that people like McCartney try to skate away on. You see, they try to be subtle with their tactics while digging the knife in, and they veil the true meanings of what they really mean. As a result of this they leave others guessing and wondering and deciphering ... and then accuse the observer as being "paranoid".
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Post by Joe Karlosi on Jul 24, 2012 5:58:19 GMT -5
Are you talking about TOO MANY PEOPLE? Paul did admit that song was a dig at John. Who cares what he said 30 years later (and all he said was that there were one or two lines subtly digging)? What matters is what people heard, not what Paul meant. I was responding to your comment here: "No way in hell"? "Someone had to be paranoid and over-sensitive"? As it turned out, John was right on the money, at least about TOO MANY PEOPLE. What does it matter if it took Paul 30 years to admit it? John was correct in his feeling that it was a dig at him back in '71. (As far as I am concerned, paranoia is simply "acute awareness" most of the time). So, if it took Paul 30 years to finally man up and admit it, chances are also that there may be other shots at John that he's not yet owned up to. Cowards like that love to insinuate and be vague, and then accuse other people of being 'over-sensitive'. And of course in Paul's case he is very protective of his "public image". Paul would not have wanted to appear like a "mean guy" or a "bad guy". (Which is all the more reason I love John's HOW DO YOU SLEEP -- Lennon comes right out and says it, no pussy-footing around). Would I be correct in inferring that you feel it's okay to use subtle jabs because then the public is not able to know who the target is? Or that John Lennon has nothing to worry about because the listeners don't realize Paul is talking about John? I'm getting the impression that some feel it's okay as long as the lines are abstract and not direct... like it's fine to mess with someone in song as long as the general public themselves have no idea.
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Post by Panther on Jul 24, 2012 6:27:56 GMT -5
Joe, it really doesn't matter what the songwriters "meant". The song doesn't objectively "mean" anything. What you hear is all the song is, even if it's not what John or Paul was thinking. Of course, there is still good and bad in art (esp. with regards to more informed tastes and musically knowledgeable people), but the songs don't "mean" anything. If John listened to "Mary had a Little Lamb" and thought Paul was attacking him, then fair enough.
Second, there is no "right" or "wrong" in art. Paul is entirely justified to sing "Too Many People", and John is entirely justified to sing "How Do You Sleep?".
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Post by debjorgo on Jul 24, 2012 7:23:08 GMT -5
I forgot what side of the arguement I was on. Of course RAM took digs at John. Paul was right to think John got too preachy. It was also understandable for Paul to be mad at John for taking his lucky break (And Paul's lucky break) and breaking it in two. I completely side with Paul on this.
How Do You Sleep was full of non-truths. John did not believe that the only thing Paul did was Yesterday. It was just John blowing his top.
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Post by Panther on Jul 24, 2012 9:18:08 GMT -5
How Do You Sleep was full of non-truths. John did not believe that the only thing Paul did was Yesterday. It was just John blowing his top. That's right, but by this line of logic we could conclude that "She Loves You" sucks because there wasn't really a guy that John and Paul were advising to love a girl (i.e., the lyric is a non-truth). "Truth" isn't really important in music, but I think passion is. "How Do You Sleep?" has passion (it also has an awesome melody - who said it didn't??). Come to think of it, John isn't really letting rip, vocally, on Imagine. There's passion in the vocal on "Gimme Some Truth" maybe, and "How Do You Sleep?" certainly.
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Post by ursamajor on Jul 24, 2012 9:43:27 GMT -5
There was no reason IMO for Paul to take digs at John in his music , all their disagreements should have been settled or unleashed in private. Making comments in the media is one thing, doing it in your music makes it more personal IMO, that's why John reacted so angrily, it's a regrettable moment in Beatle history.
I quite like HDYS, I like John's singing, I like the lyrics too but I don't listen to them as an attack on Paul, just a singer full of emotion and passion.
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andyb
Very Clean
Posts: 878
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Post by andyb on Jul 24, 2012 10:46:46 GMT -5
I liked it me. Thought it was a good album. I don't think there's really bad song on it but a couple of them are a bit too long.
Not listened to it for ages as I've only got it on cassette.
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Post by ReturnToPepperland on Jul 24, 2012 14:02:46 GMT -5
Imagine is one of John's most even albums and one of his best. I like it better than POB easily. Much more listenable. The only song that I don't care for is I Don't Want To Be A Soldier. That belongs on POB, it fits perfectly. I don't dig the Imagine song lyrics but I can appreciate it for the melody and arrangement. Oh My Love and Jealous Guy are from 1968. Give Me Some Truth and Imagine were begun in 1969, but that's not too unusual. Often a couple songs may be from recent prior years rather than newly written. You're right about How Do You Sleep? The lyrics are a minefield but the song stand on its own despite the lyrics. I have nothing bad to say about this album as a whole it works quite well. And it has aged well.
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Post by ReturnToPepperland on Jul 24, 2012 14:06:22 GMT -5
When John did 'How Do You Sleep?' I didn't want to get into a slinging match. Part of it was cowardice. John was a great wit, and I didn't want to go fencing with the rapier champion of East Cheam-- But it meant that I had to take shit--It meant that I had to take lines like 'All you ever did was Yesterday.' That's what you get, Paulie Boy, for writing lines like "Too Many people preaching practices" and "you took your lucky break and broke it in two".Hey, Paul -- give me a break. If you wanna play, sometimes you tangle with the wrong guy. He was just answering John's very public interview(s) in late 1970 when promoting POB.
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Post by ReturnToPepperland on Jul 24, 2012 14:17:18 GMT -5
Maybe not in Rolling Stone magazine. For me, his first three albums are the best he's ever made! (and yes, I'm serious) Ah, you are 3/4's the way to accepting The JSD Postulate! In the film of John recording this song, John seems even angrier, throwing the c-word out towards the song's recipient. The Howard Sounes' book Fab reminded me of a horrible incident that could make a guy like John mad enough to write HDYS. Here is an excerpt from a different source though as linked to below which summarizes the event: "Francie Schwartz has memories of Yoko that are kinder than most other people's (and memories of Paul that are less fond). But her account of the Big Rupture between Paul and John is probably quite accurate in its essentials. It was told many times by John himself. 'It was in August, and I was living with Paul on Cavendish Avenue. John and Yoko were staying there too, in the living room. Paul never opened his fan mail, I opened the fan mail for him, but he didn't give a shit about the mail. John and Yoko definitely gave a shit about their mail, and everything addressed to John and/or Yoko came to the house. Paul was upstairs, and there was a note on the mantle, addressed to John and Yoko, typewritten. It was not postmarked so it was suspicious immediately. The two of them opened it up and showed it to me. It said, 'You and your Jap tart think you're hot shit.' We were appalled, I mean, what can you say? It was unsigned, just the one sentence, typed. Then Paul bopped into the living room. He was wearing suit trousers and suspenders, barefoot with no shirt, his hands in his pockets. 'Oh, I just did that for a lark,' he said. As far as I'm concerned, that was the moment when John looked at Paul as if to say, 'Do I know you?' It was over, it was completely and totally over at that moment. They may have been able to work together, but it was never the same.'" www.wingspan.ru/bookseng/linda/07.htmlPaul like to write creepy, anonymous postcards to people(who instantly knew it was from Paul) and this was clearly among the worst. Per the Barry Miles book The Beatles Diary: The Beatles Years, on January 13, 1969, Derek Taylor got an unsigned postcard from Paul saying "Up yer" because Taylor was desperately trying to mend the rifts between the band(this was right after George Harrison walked out). There was bound to be some anger in John, much justified, which could explain his outburst on "How Do You Sleep?" I don't believe Francie Schwartz for a moment. Remember Paul dumped her ass and she has an axe to grind. That story is so unlikely it makes no sense. Why would he admit it if he did it? It just doesn't scan. I think if they did get something like that in the mail, someone stuck it in the mailbox, not Paul. Remember so called fans rang the bell at all hours so they could made themselves an access to the mailbox. I don't recall John or Yoko ever repeating that story and they would have if it happened. Why would John not have said something in public about it. He aired out every other piece of dirty laundry. No, JSD not buying it. Schwartz has no credibility.
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Post by acebackwords on Jul 24, 2012 14:31:48 GMT -5
"How Do You Sleep" is one of the greatest songs of all-time. Blistering guitar, snarling vocals, clever lyrics . . . whether you like it or not, its a totally unique song, sentiments and emotions rarely expressed in pop music. The rest of the album is mediocre to me (aside from "Crippled Inside" which would have been a classic Beatles song had Lennon not run out of ideas and inspiration about half way through). A forecast of the soporific "Mind Games" kinda' of music that was to follow. This may take the prize for the quote I most disagree with ever posted on this board.. I'm glad I finally won something. Ha ha. This is just my opinion (and surely not shared by most or anyone on this board) but I found most of Lennon's solo career somewhat mediocre musically. I found it mostly fascinating on a lot of other levels (artistically, culturally, intellectually, etc) but no need to go into that here. I do love individual songs like "Dream #9" and "Happy Christmas" and a bunch of others. But musically -- melodically and instrumentally -- Lennon's solo stuff is just an incredible drop off from his Beatles stuff.
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