|
Post by ReturnToPepperland on Jul 24, 2012 15:28:16 GMT -5
This may take the prize for the quote I most disagree with ever posted on this board.. I'm glad I finally won something. Ha ha. This is just my opinion (and surely not shared by most or anyone on this board) but I found most of Lennon's solo career somewhat mediocre musically. I found it mostly fascinating on a lot of other levels (artistically, culturally, intellectually, etc) but no need to go into that here. I do love individual songs like "Dream #9" and "Happy Christmas" and a bunch of others. But musically -- melodically and instrumentally -- Lennon's solo stuff is just an incredible drop off from his Beatles stuff. Its funny you should pick those songs as ones you like because they were a bit removed from John and certainly not his most original. John acknowledged in one of the interviews from 1974 that No. 9 Dream was written around the "beautiful lick" (played at the beginning of the song) that one of the session musicians was fooling with. John also admitted that he "borrowed" the string arrangement from Harry Nilsson's "Many Rivers To Cross" to use on No. 9 Dream. And we know the story about Happy Christmas melody coming from an old public domain song called Stewball. I'm not saying John is a rip off artist. He didn't do any more of that than anyone else. Its just that you happened to mention those two songs.
|
|
|
Post by acebackwords on Jul 24, 2012 17:10:25 GMT -5
I'm glad I finally won something. Ha ha. This is just my opinion (and surely not shared by most or anyone on this board) but I found most of Lennon's solo career somewhat mediocre musically. I found it mostly fascinating on a lot of other levels (artistically, culturally, intellectually, etc) but no need to go into that here. I do love individual songs like "Dream #9" and "Happy Christmas" and a bunch of others. But musically -- melodically and instrumentally -- Lennon's solo stuff is just an incredible drop off from his Beatles stuff. Its funny you should pick those songs as ones you like because they were a bit removed from John and certainly not his most original. John acknowledged in one of the interviews from 1974 that No. 9 Dream was written around the "beautiful lick" (played at the beginning of the song) that one of the session musicians was fooling with. John also admitted that he "borrowed" the string arrangement from Harry Nilsson's "Many Rivers To Cross" to use on No. 9 Dream. And we know the story about Happy Christmas melody coming from an old public domain song called Stewball. I'm not saying John is a rip off artist. He didn't do any more of that than anyone else. Its just that you happened to mention those two songs. I guess I could sum up my problem with Lennon's solo music thusly: I like the concept behind Plastic Ono Band more than I like the actual music.
|
|
|
Post by debjorgo on Jul 24, 2012 18:34:43 GMT -5
How Do You Sleep was full of non-truths. John did not believe that the only thing Paul did was Yesterday. It was just John blowing his top. That's right, but by this line of logic we could conclude that "She Loves You" sucks because there wasn't really a guy that John and Paul were advising to love a girl (i.e., the lyric is a non-truth). "Truth" isn't really important in music, but I think passion is. "How Do You Sleep?" has passion (it also has an awesome melody - who said it didn't??). Come to think of it, John isn't really letting rip, vocally, on Imagine. There's passion in the vocal on "Gimme Some Truth" maybe, and "How Do You Sleep?" certainly. Good point. But as I said earlier, I like the lyrics and the vitriol emotion to How Do You Sleep even though I think that upon examination, his points don't stand up. And to me, if you took the vocal track away, the song is unlistenable. And while I'm at it, the music behind the song Imagine isn't that great either. The production/mixing may be at fault. But it is some of John's best, soulful, singing ever.
|
|
|
Post by coachbk on Jul 24, 2012 18:38:41 GMT -5
[/quote] I guess I could sum up my problem with Lennon's solo music thusly: I like the concept behind Plastic Ono Band more than I like the actual music.[/quote]
That's a good description of how I feel about POB too.
|
|
|
Post by debjorgo on Jul 24, 2012 18:41:29 GMT -5
There's some great rock and roll on both POB and Imagine.
|
|
kc
Beatle Freak
Posts: 1,085
|
Post by kc on Jul 24, 2012 23:54:09 GMT -5
Paul's breakout material in 70-71 didn't exactly inspire a lot of confidence at the time. Maybe not in Rolling Stone magazine. For me, his first three albums are the best he's ever made! (and yes, I'm serious) Panther, I don't suppose this is the thread to do it, but I would be interested in your track by track analysis of McCartney's first three albums, as you think so highly of them. For example, I myself feel that Ram is first rate, but you have dismissed Uncle Albert/Admiral Halsey in the past. What is it about the other songs from that album that impress you? Why the high opinion of McCartney and Wings Wild Life? To me the both of them fall short.
|
|
|
Post by Panther on Jul 25, 2012 6:09:50 GMT -5
I Don't Want To Be A Soldier. That belongs on POB, it fits perfectly. No way! "I Don't Want to be a Soldier" is classic rock, full-band, swampy blues -- which is nothing at all like JL/POB, which is spartan, tidy, clean and sparse of sound. JL/POB anticipates rock music of the end of the 70s, with its punk vocals and post-punk, stripped-down sound. By contrast, Imagine has a much more standard 1970-71 hippie band kind of sound. Oh My Love and Jealous Guy are from 1968. Give Me Some Truth and Imagine were begun in 1969, but that's not too unusual. Not sure what those dates have to do with your enjoyment of the record. But what's with the "Imagine" was begun in 1969 thing --- where did you get that?
|
|
|
Post by Joe Karlosi on Jul 25, 2012 6:10:26 GMT -5
Its funny you should pick those songs as ones you like because they were a bit removed from John and certainly not his most original. John acknowledged in one of the interviews from 1974 that No. 9 Dream was written around the "beautiful lick" (played at the beginning of the song) that one of the session musicians was fooling with. John also admitted that he "borrowed" the string arrangement from Harry Nilsson's "Many Rivers To Cross" to use on No. 9 Dream. And we know the story about Happy Christmas melody coming from an old public domain song called Stewball. I'm not saying John is a rip off artist. He didn't do any more of that than anyone else. Would that also include a certain Paul McCartney in your last assertion here? Again I find it so amazing how you have absolutely no problem "exposing" John or criticizing him in a heartbeat ... yet you could go for years and years and not once ever criticize or tweak Macca.
|
|
|
Post by Joe Karlosi on Jul 25, 2012 6:12:26 GMT -5
That's what you get, Paulie Boy, for writing lines like "Too Many people preaching practices" and "you took your lucky break and broke it in two".Hey, Paul -- give me a break. If you wanna play, sometimes you tangle with the wrong guy. He was just answering John's very public interview(s) in late 1970 when promoting POB. --- and in those public late '70 interviews, John was reacting to crap that Paul had given him. Do you want to go down this road again?
|
|
|
Post by Joe Karlosi on Jul 25, 2012 6:14:14 GMT -5
Imagine is one of John's most even albums and one of his best. I like it better than POB easily. Much more listenable. The only song that I don't care for is I Don't Want To Be A Soldier. That belongs on POB, it fits perfectly. I don't dig the Imagine song lyrics but I can appreciate it for the melody and arrangement. Oh My Love and Jealous Guy are from 1968. Give Me Some Truth and Imagine were begun in 1969, but that's not too unusual. Often a couple songs may be from recent prior years rather than newly written. You're right about How Do You Sleep? The lyrics are a minefield but the song stand on its own despite the lyrics. I have nothing bad to say about this album as a whole it works quite well. And it has aged well. How nice of you to "praise" the album while making sure you remind all of us that many of John's songs were actually of the "Beatles Era".
|
|
|
Post by Joe Karlosi on Jul 25, 2012 6:22:03 GMT -5
I forgot what side of the arguement I was on. Of course RAM took digs at John. Paul was right to think John got too preachy. It was also understandable for Paul to be mad at John for taking his lucky break (And Paul's lucky break) and breaking it in two. I completely side with Paul on this. How Do You Sleep was full of non-truths. John did not believe that the only thing Paul did was Yesterday. It was just John blowing his top. I'd bet John believed some of it. I think John did believe Paul was currently making what amounted to "muzak", and "living with straights", for example.
|
|
|
Post by Joe Karlosi on Jul 25, 2012 6:25:40 GMT -5
Joe, it really doesn't matter what the songwriters "meant". The song doesn't objectively "mean" anything. What you hear is all the song is, even if it's not what John or Paul was thinking. Of course, there is still good and bad in art (esp. with regards to more informed tastes and musically knowledgeable people), but the songs don't "mean" anything. If John listened to "Mary had a Little Lamb" and thought Paul was attacking him, then fair enough. Second, there is no "right" or "wrong" in art. Paul is entirely justified to sing "Too Many People", and John is entirely justified to sing "How Do You Sleep?". It's another thing for the listener to interpret the meaning for themselves... they are free to do that, obviously. But the author's intent should be considered. When I heard TOO MANY PEOPLE I always wondered who Paul was talking about in some of those nasty lines and figured they were probably aimed at Lennon. Anyway - if it "doesn't matter what the writer meant", then why does everyone get so upset about John's words in HOW DO YOU SLEEP?
|
|
|
Post by mikev on Jul 25, 2012 7:10:40 GMT -5
I Don't Want To Be A Soldier. That belongs on POB, it fits perfectly. No way! "I Don't Want to be a Soldier" is classic rock, full-band, swampy blues -- which is nothing at all like JL/POB, which is spartan, tidy, clean and sparse of sound. JL/POB anticipates rock music of the end of the 70s, with its punk vocals and post-punk, stripped-down sound. By contrast, Imagine has a much more standard 1970-71 hippie band kind of sound. Oh My Love and Jealous Guy are from 1968. Give Me Some Truth and Imagine were begun in 1969, but that's not too unusual. Not sure what those dates have to do with your enjoyment of the record. But what's with the "Imagine" was begun in 1969 thing --- where did you get that? Listen to Naked's "brilliant" Fly on the Wall...where early chords resembling Imagine are played out...January 1969. I'm being sarcastic about brilliant, but this was an interesting clip. Not sure if that is the same reference as RTP's. I generally agree that "Soldier" sounds more like POB structure-wise, except a few more layers of production/overdubs.
|
|
|
Post by mikev on Jul 25, 2012 7:11:37 GMT -5
I'm glad I finally won something. Ha ha. This is just my opinion (and surely not shared by most or anyone on this board) but I found most of Lennon's solo career somewhat mediocre musically. I found it mostly fascinating on a lot of other levels (artistically, culturally, intellectually, etc) but no need to go into that here. I do love individual songs like "Dream #9" and "Happy Christmas" and a bunch of others. But musically -- melodically and instrumentally -- Lennon's solo stuff is just an incredible drop off from his Beatles stuff. Its funny you should pick those songs as ones you like because they were a bit removed from John and certainly not his most original. John acknowledged in one of the interviews from 1974 that No. 9 Dream was written around the "beautiful lick" (played at the beginning of the song) that one of the session musicians was fooling with. John also admitted that he "borrowed" the string arrangement from Harry Nilsson's "Many Rivers To Cross" to use on No. 9 Dream. And we know the story about Happy Christmas melody coming from an old public domain song called Stewball. I'm not saying John is a rip off artist. He didn't do any more of that than anyone else. Its just that you happened to mention those two songs. And Crippled Inside is Black Dog Blues.
|
|
|
Post by coachbk on Jul 25, 2012 8:16:17 GMT -5
[quote Frankly part of what makes me so sad the few times I've listened to :How Do You Sleep?" is seeing such a great songwriter-the guy who wrote "In My Life", "Strawberry Fields Forever", "Across The Universe", etc. reduced to writing such childish drivel barely worthy of a middle school student trying to "get back" at a classmate.
/quote]
And just to show this isn't a "John vs Paul" thing for me, I feel just as disappointed when I listen to "Bip Bop" and think this is from the same guy who wrote "Eleanor Rigby", "For No One" and "Hey Jude"!
Each are the low point of the enjoyment of John and Paul's songs for me personally. Each would rate a 0 on the "Karlosi scale"!!!
|
|
|
Post by ReturnToPepperland on Jul 25, 2012 8:46:49 GMT -5
I Don't Want To Be A Soldier. That belongs on POB, it fits perfectly. No way! "I Don't Want to be a Soldier" is classic rock, full-band, swampy blues -- which is nothing at all like JL/POB, which is spartan, tidy, clean and sparse of sound. JL/POB anticipates rock music of the end of the 70s, with its punk vocals and post-punk, stripped-down sound. By contrast, Imagine has a much more standard 1970-71 hippie band kind of sound. Oh My Love and Jealous Guy are from 1968. Give Me Some Truth and Imagine were begun in 1969, but that's not too unusual. Not sure what those dates have to do with your enjoyment of the record. But what's with the "Imagine" was begun in 1969 thing --- where did you get that? There was a snipet of John playing the Imagine melody (maybe intro)-- no words-- on the Fly on the Wall disc from Let It Be Naked. As for IDWTBAS you might be right about the arrangment not fitting POB, but certainly the subject matter of the song does even more so that it fits Imagine.
|
|
|
Post by ReturnToPepperland on Jul 25, 2012 8:47:48 GMT -5
Its funny you should pick those songs as ones you like because they were a bit removed from John and certainly not his most original. John acknowledged in one of the interviews from 1974 that No. 9 Dream was written around the "beautiful lick" (played at the beginning of the song) that one of the session musicians was fooling with. John also admitted that he "borrowed" the string arrangement from Harry Nilsson's "Many Rivers To Cross" to use on No. 9 Dream. And we know the story about Happy Christmas melody coming from an old public domain song called Stewball. I'm not saying John is a rip off artist. He didn't do any more of that than anyone else. Would that also include a certain Paul McCartney in your last assertion here? To be fair yeah probably.
|
|
|
Post by ReturnToPepperland on Jul 25, 2012 8:49:08 GMT -5
Imagine is one of John's most even albums and one of his best. I like it better than POB easily. Much more listenable. The only song that I don't care for is I Don't Want To Be A Soldier. That belongs on POB, it fits perfectly. I don't dig the Imagine song lyrics but I can appreciate it for the melody and arrangement. Oh My Love and Jealous Guy are from 1968. Give Me Some Truth and Imagine were begun in 1969, but that's not too unusual. Often a couple songs may be from recent prior years rather than newly written. You're right about How Do You Sleep? The lyrics are a minefield but the song stand on its own despite the lyrics. I have nothing bad to say about this album as a whole it works quite well. And it has aged well. How nice of you to "praise" the album while making sure you remind all of us that many of John's songs were actually of the "Beatles Era". Again to be fair, some of the songs from the McCartney album went back a way--Hot As Sun from 1958 for example.
|
|
|
Post by Panther on Jul 25, 2012 8:55:52 GMT -5
Again to be fair, some of the songs from the McCartney album went back a way--Hot As Sun from 1958 for example. Yes, and John probably wrote 42.7% of it.
|
|
|
Post by Panther on Jul 25, 2012 9:01:29 GMT -5
There was a snipet of John playing the Imagine melody (maybe intro)-- no words-- on the Fly on the Wall disc from Let It Be Naked. Okay, I just found this on YouTube. I heard maybe the opening chord of the song... does that constitute the melody now?
|
|
|
Post by mikev on Jul 25, 2012 9:26:23 GMT -5
There was a snipet of John playing the Imagine melody (maybe intro)-- no words-- on the Fly on the Wall disc from Let It Be Naked. Okay, I just found this on YouTube. I heard maybe the opening chord of the song... does that constitute the melody now? No more so than the piano chords at the end of the unedited Something resembling Remember. We all know John has recycled piano licks right throught to Double Fantasy and Milk and Honey. You don't always need a melody. Even that real early clip of John on the harmonium playing what sounds like Strawberry Fields- but was really just an intro.
|
|
|
Post by acebackwords on Jul 25, 2012 13:41:54 GMT -5
I'm glad I finally won something. Ha ha. This is just my opinion (and surely not shared by most or anyone on this board) but I found most of Lennon's solo career somewhat mediocre musically. I found it mostly fascinating on a lot of other levels (artistically, culturally, intellectually, etc) but no need to go into that here. I do love individual songs like "Dream #9" and "Happy Christmas" and a bunch of others. But musically -- melodically and instrumentally -- Lennon's solo stuff is just an incredible drop off from his Beatles stuff. Its funny you should pick those songs as ones you like because they were a bit removed from John and certainly not his most original. John acknowledged in one of the interviews from 1974 that No. 9 Dream was written around the "beautiful lick" (played at the beginning of the song) that one of the session musicians was fooling with. John also admitted that he "borrowed" the string arrangement from Harry Nilsson's "Many Rivers To Cross" to use on No. 9 Dream. And we know the story about Happy Christmas melody coming from an old public domain song called Stewball. I'm not saying John is a rip off artist. He didn't do any more of that than anyone else. Its just that you happened to mention those two songs. If you're implying that those two songs are unoriginal I think thats a little unfair. Lennon embellished the string arrangement from a song that he himself was recording. And I doubt anyone would have even noticed if Lennon himself hadn't pointed it out. Lennon has always described the craft of songwriting as "taking little bits from everywhere and putting them together in an original way" (or something like that). Paul by the way admits lifting entire bass patterns from Motown records, but he too did it in a wholly original way. In my opinion "Dream #9 is one of the most original, one-of-a-kind songs in the entire Lennon solo catalogue. A hauntingly beautiful, eerie song. I've never heard the song Lennon supposedly copied for "Happy Christmas." But geez, if there's one genre of music that is supposed to be derivitive its Christmas music. Invoking all those old traditional "Jingle Bells" type of sounds to invoke the spirit of Christmas past. Its interesting that McCartney, the great sentimentalist, got his butt kicked in the Christmas song competition. "Wonderful Christmas" is an OK song, harmless but maybe a little cheesey. Whereas "Happy Christmas" is the bona fide classic.
|
|
|
Post by debjorgo on Jul 25, 2012 17:07:55 GMT -5
I Don't Want to be a Soldier sounds like it belongs on Sometime in New York City.
Isn't Happy Christmas pretty much a downer when it comes to Christmas songs? I like Wonderful Christmas much better. They both get about the same radio play.
|
|
|
Post by debjorgo on Jul 25, 2012 17:15:05 GMT -5
I forgot what side of the arguement I was on. Of course RAM took digs at John. Paul was right to think John got too preachy. It was also understandable for Paul to be mad at John for taking his lucky break (And Paul's lucky break) and breaking it in two. I completely side with Paul on this. How Do You Sleep was full of non-truths. John did not believe that the only thing Paul did was Yesterday. It was just John blowing his top. I'd bet John believed some of it. I think John did believe Paul was currently making what amounted to "muzak", and "living with straights", for example. Paul was a little bit offensive on the "straights" line. Something like "I raised straight kids. So what?". And you always hear that John was jealous of Paul abilites. Do you believe the only song he liked was Coming Up? Maybe though. Hearing all those little jabs that might be about him, but Paul say's they're not. He did say he had to quit listening to them because of that, didn't he?
|
|
|
Post by Joe Karlosi on Jul 25, 2012 17:25:20 GMT -5
And you always hear that John was jealous of Paul abilites. Do you believe the only song he liked was Coming Up? Maybe though. Hearing all those little jabs that might be about him, but Paul say's they're not. He did say he had to quit listening to them because of that, didn't he? As I said before, what is a person to think? After a while, you don't know what lyric is an intended jab and what's just imagination. After a while you start to suspect they're all digs. But maybe that's part of Paul's 'game'. "Paul says" lots of things, and I don't think he's always being completely honest. Isn't the TOO MANY PEOPLE concession about the John lyrics only fairly recent? I do think John may have been jealous of Paul's abilities in some ways. (And no, I don't believe John only liked COMING UP). But with John you could always see his warts because after a while he wore his heart on his sleeve (and music). With Paul, it's largely hidden. I'll bet Paul was jealous of some of John's abilities as well. And this is why they worked so well together.
|
|
|
Post by Joe Karlosi on Jul 25, 2012 17:33:12 GMT -5
Isn't Happy Christmas pretty much a downer when it comes to Christmas songs? I like Wonderful Christmas much better. They both get about the same radio play. Is Christmas always an "upper" for everyone? Every single year? No, it is not always a ho-ho-happy occasion. John's song says much more and is more real. Paul's is just typical by the numbers fluff. I do like hearing it each year, but it's nothing much, and actually gets included on lots of people's "Worst Christmas Songs" lists, I have begun to notice...
|
|
|
Post by debjorgo on Jul 25, 2012 17:35:44 GMT -5
And you always hear that John was jealous of Paul abilites. Do you believe the only song he liked was Coming Up? Maybe though. Hearing all those little jabs that might be about him, but Paul say's they're not. He did say he had to quit listening to them because of that, didn't he? As I said before, what is a person to think? After a while, you don't know what lyric is an intended jab and what's just imagination. After a while you start to suspect they're all digs. But maybe that's part of Paul's 'game'. "Paul says" lots of things, and I don't think he's always being completely honest. Isn't the TOO MANY PEOPLE concession about the John lyrics only fairly recent? I do think John may have been jealous of Paul's abilities in some ways. (And no, I don't believe John only liked COMING UP). But with John you could always see his warts because after a while he wore his heart on his sleeve (and music). With Paul, it's largely hidden. I'll bet Paul was jealous of some of John's abilities as well. And this is why they worked so well together. In defense of Paul, he did spend a lot of the early years denying what wasn't about John. He never did say "preaching ..." wasn't about John.
|
|
|
Post by Joe Karlosi on Jul 25, 2012 17:49:53 GMT -5
In defense of Paul, he did spend a lot of the early years denying what wasn't about John. He never did say "preaching ..." wasn't about John. There's always a lot of "in defense of Paul..." 'round here. 'Bout time people started defending John too (and HDYS in particular). Look, whatever -- but... John felt he was being wronged by Paul during the last days of The Beatles, and how Paul treated John's girlfriend. Paul screwed John over by being the one to announce "I'm Leaving The Beatles" after John was the one who truly wanted to leave first but then conceded to keeping it hush-hush for the time being for the sake of business (thus giving Paul the opportunity to turn around and knife him in the back). Then Paul concocted that silly self-serving interview name-dropping John. So Paul was no angel in any of this, and John felt betrayed and hurt and thus responded in the RS interview. Then Paul jabbed at John with RAM, and John jabbed back with HDYS. They both forgot about it while John was still alive, and they lived through it and got past it. Why can't some of the fans? Even the most loving married couples fight now and then, so I think it's a neat sideline to the Lennon/McCartney relationship, their whole "Feuding Period". I think the RAM songs, HDYS, and the pig/ram pics are a fascinating moment in time where two former partners sneered at each other but then eventually got over it.
|
|
|
Post by Panther on Jul 25, 2012 18:20:03 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by acebackwords on Jul 25, 2012 18:59:28 GMT -5
I guess I got that one ass backwards.
|
|